Here's how you make raids less time consuming... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Here's how you make raids less time consuming...

Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 4, 2019 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

Add "lesser ectoplasm" to one of acrobatics minor traits on thief.
Lesser ectoplasm buffs everything except stability, aegis, resistance for 10 players, and is gained when using steal on legendary mobs.

Done.

No need for waiting for perfect comp to get together. You'd just need a tank, 1-2 healer, maybe a bannerwarrior, rest dps.

Why? Because 90% of the "time consuming" part in raids? its waiting for squad to fill..... 9% is waiting for players randomly going afk... and 1% is the maybe wipe on more difficult bosses.

/edit:
Calling raids time consuming was a really bad move. It made me incredibly angry, because GW2 raids are the most accessible raids in every mmo I ever played. The only "time consuming" part about is, is the kitten balance in GW2. NOT the raids themselves.

Comments

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids in GW2 is a mode about waiting indeed lol. I've been in highly organized weekly clear groups, in less organized groups, in exclusively pug clears, in discord pugs, in training groups, in random meetup groups for specific CMs, and so on and so on, and not a SINGLE instance of them did not involve several hours of waiting around in between actually doing the encounters. I don't know if this is the fault of balance though. Maybe a holy trinity would have been better so roles are more strictly defined? It's a shame because raids are so fun when you're actually hitting a boss, but it's quite honestly only 40% of the total time I have ever invested in raids, and that's including the long haul when I had a group good enough to just log in and go straight to the bosses with prearranged builds. Even our group had long periods of waiting, and I have no idea if this should even be considered a problem to be solved.

  • Interesting. When I want to raid, i just open lfg, join some squad and boss is dead in 15 minutes 80% of time. Not that much waiting.
    Also if you find a guild then there will be no waiting at all

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Interesting. When I want to raid, i just open lfg, join some squad and boss is dead in 15 minutes 80% of time. Not that much waiting.
    Also if you find a guild then there will be no waiting at all

    You a chrono or alacgade/quickbrand by any chance?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    So the solution to making raids more accessible is make another class which shares all boons like the old SoI chrono?

    If Arenanet wanted this kind of accessibility, they could just revert the nerfs to chrono and just let dual chrono provide all boons again.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Power creep never solved anything.

  • If you want to get really technical, you already can beat raids with 1 tank, 1-2 healers, and the rest DPS. These meta comps don't just beat the boss, they destroy them. People are clearing some of these bosses in less than half the time of the enrage meter. You can beat raids without having all of the boons and unique buffs that the meta comps give.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    If you want to get really technical, you already can beat raids with 1 tank, 1-2 healers, and the rest DPS. These meta comps don't just beat the boss, they destroy them. People are clearing some of these bosses in less than half the time of the enrage meter. You can beat raids without having all of the boons and unique buffs that the meta comps give.

    Quite honestly, thats such a toxic thing to say. Ofc you can beat raids in green gear or without boons. Well, experienced players can. New players cant. Thats the problem. The current system punishes new, inexperienced players, while giving experienced players a HUGE advantage. Yes, boons are that big an advantage, even when "just" autoattacking.

    How about countering supposed powercreep with lowering peak dps numbers on each build to < 33k dps? Or increasing health on each boss by avg. 33k dps since you get one more full dps in that comp? How about forcing a healer by increasing/adding arena dmg ticks on every encounter?

    Or how about not doing any of this and just add a no-downstate-increased-boss-health hardmode for people afraid of powercreep?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So the solution to making raids more accessible is make another class which shares all boons like the old SoI chrono?

    If Arenanet wanted this kind of accessibility, they could just revert the nerfs to chrono and just let dual chrono provide all boons again.

    Because chaos chrono was aids in every single gamemode, breaking every single gamemode. While boonthief is raids exclusive, no harm to PvP, WvW. Simple.

    Also, it would be nice if people actually read the post they are commenting on. My suggestion wouldnt have been like old chaos chrono. It wouldnt share aegis, stab, resistance. Just the boons deemed "necessary" by the people making raidmeta. Big difference.

    But whatever. I honestly dont even care anymore if pug raiding survives or not.

  • @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    If you want to get really technical, you already can beat raids with 1 tank, 1-2 healers, and the rest DPS. These meta comps don't just beat the boss, they destroy them. People are clearing some of these bosses in less than half the time of the enrage meter. You can beat raids without having all of the boons and unique buffs that the meta comps give.

    Quite honestly, thats such a toxic thing to say. Ofc you can beat raids in green gear or without boons. Well, experienced players can. New players cant. Thats the problem. The current system punishes new, inexperienced players, while giving experienced players a HUGE advantage. Yes, boons are that big an advantage, even when "just" autoattacking.

    How about countering supposed powercreep with lowering peak dps numbers on each build to < 33k dps? Or increasing health on each boss by avg. 33k dps since you get one more full dps in that comp? How about forcing a healer by increasing/adding arena dmg ticks on every encounter?

    Or how about not doing any of this and just add a no-downstate-increased-boss-health hardmode for people afraid of powercreep?\

    You say that word. It does not mean what you think it means. The fact of GW2 raids is this: they are far undertuned, and they were designed this way on purpose. Specifically, it is to accommodate groups that aren't running some super-elite meta comp.

    The current system doesn't discriminate against inexperienced players anymore than all of reality does. Everything you've said after that doesn't make sense.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    If you want to get really technical, you already can beat raids with 1 tank, 1-2 healers, and the rest DPS. These meta comps don't just beat the boss, they destroy them. People are clearing some of these bosses in less than half the time of the enrage meter. You can beat raids without having all of the boons and unique buffs that the meta comps give.

    Quite honestly, thats such a toxic thing to say. Ofc you can beat raids in green gear or without boons. Well, experienced players can. New players cant. Thats the problem. The current system punishes new, inexperienced players, while giving experienced players a HUGE advantage. Yes, boons are that big an advantage, even when "just" autoattacking.

    How about countering supposed powercreep with lowering peak dps numbers on each build to < 33k dps? Or increasing health on each boss by avg. 33k dps since you get one more full dps in that comp? How about forcing a healer by increasing/adding arena dmg ticks on every encounter?

    The problems GW2 raids have are not surrounding only boons. As far as boons go, Arenanet already gave players a nearly braindead comp which can provide permanent boons without the chrono hassle: it's called Firebrigade.

    The system in place requires a minimum of effort and understanding. The scaling is already super low. Experienced groups full clear raids in 3-4 hours in 1 day. How far down is the bar supposed to be brought? I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, I'm saying at some point raids are no longer raids but brainafk content for free loot.

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So the solution to making raids more accessible is make another class which shares all boons like the old SoI chrono?

    If Arenanet wanted this kind of accessibility, they could just revert the nerfs to chrono and just let dual chrono provide all boons again.

    Because chaos chrono was aids in every single gamemode, breaking every single gamemode. While boonthief is raids exclusive, no harm to PvP, WvW. Simple.

    Yes, I'm sure a boonsharing thief will cause absolutely no issues in any other game modes. A 10 people boon sharing thief on top of that.

    Any class which provides a vast amount of boons will cause issues in all 3 game modes. If that class has other unique perks like stealth, portals and say very high mobility, you are tipping the scales even more.

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Also, it would be nice if people actually read the post they are commenting on. My suggestion wouldnt have been like old chaos chrono. It wouldnt share aegis, stab, resistance. Just the boons deemed "necessary" by the people making raidmeta. Big difference.

    But whatever. I honestly dont even care anymore if pug raiding survives or not.

    Minor details given those boons could be provided without issue on the spots that were just freed up.

    PUG raiding should never have been a thing to begin with. Raids were meant as challenging group content. It amazes me how on the one hand people complain that there is no group content, on the other hand the playerbase does everything possible to circumvent grouping or dedicated group content.

    If raids are meant to be PUGed, then the entire design team needs to go back to the drawing board because there is a ton of issues in place which make this content PUG unfriendly.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    Snip

    Yes, I'm sure a boonsharing thief will cause absolutely no issues in any other game modes. A 10 people boon sharing thief on top of that.

    Any class which provides a vast amount of boons will cause issues in all 3 game modes. If that class has other unique perks like stealth, portals and say very high mobility, you are tipping the scales even more.

    Snip
    Sorry to say mate but @Yasi.9065 is correct on this point since they cant steal the 10 man boon overload item from players, so then they cant share it either.
    So not affecting other game modes at all.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detonate_Plasma

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    I actualy think this is a troll post. I dont understant this at all? You are waiting for chrono/firebrand so you want to create another class that will make those 2 usless so you will wait for that class. Briliant.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    Snip

    Yes, I'm sure a boonsharing thief will cause absolutely no issues in any other game modes. A 10 people boon sharing thief on top of that.

    Any class which provides a vast amount of boons will cause issues in all 3 game modes. If that class has other unique perks like stealth, portals and say very high mobility, you are tipping the scales even more.

    Snip
    Sorry to say mate but @Yasi.9065 is correct on this point since they cant steal the 10 man boon overload item from players, so then they cant share it either.
    So not affecting other game modes at all.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detonate_Plasma

    ...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Castle_Lord

    Not to mention the tons of legendary enemies in open world maps (pretty much any world boss). So back to the drawing board on the details?

    I guess what I am getting at is: there are already perma boon setups in game. Most require dedicated 2 classes. What makes thief special so that it should provide permanent boons on its own (while already possible on some fights)? Is it the flavor of the month class? I'm not opposed to the idea of more boon class combos, but definately not on 1 class on it's own, and even less with a 2 button combo (steal+use stolen item).

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I thought people got tired of must-have "master of all" supports like the old Chaos Chrono? Everyone and their mother were asking for variety, balance and all of that stuff. Seems a bit weird to then introduce an even more important must-have build in the form of a thief. My raid squad fills in about 2mins and we make sure to not waste any time on swapping if possible but then you are probably talking about pugs.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    I thought people got tired of must-have "master of all" supports like the old Chaos Chrono?

    Nah. It's not "people" that nerfed that build, but Anet devs. Most of the raiders i knew weren't all that thrilled by continued chrono nerfs at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    I thought people got tired of must-have "master of all" supports like the old Chaos Chrono?

    Nah. It's not "people" that nerfed that build, but Anet devs. Most of the raiders i knew weren't all that thrilled by continued chrono nerfs at all.

    I'd like to add that those nerfs were also a reason that constantly drove people away from raiding and made fractaling a lot worse during the time span between chronos leaving the mode/game and firebrand wasn't discovered as pug material. Overall the nerfs to chrono were not clever and the decreasing amount of raiders underlines that. It would have been better to have many options and bring 2-3 classes for every role almost identically in line.

  • Make ascended gear easier to aquire, lower the bars on raiding or add more old school dungeons.. They were the best and most fun anyway.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Not that i agree with the proposal, but if it did happen, i don't think itd help the problem much.

    All your waiting will be waiting on a theif to join the squad- just as most sqauds are left waiting on druid spirits/banners/chronotank (SPECIFICALLY chrono)/healers(which are oft only a few specific classes), and then you're still need gonna most of the aforementioned roster anyway.

    The sentence "No need for waiting for perfect comp to get together. You'd just need a tank, 1-2 healer, maybe a bannerwarrior, rest dps" reads bad because this IS the perfect comp.

    Most supports carry a second job. Chronotank is meta not because chrono provides boons and y not tank if dps is low anyway, but because chrono sword 2 shield 4 sword 4 and distortion can be timed to avoid most big hits. Druid is wanted for spirits, boons and heals is a bonus- and infact, if you have a soulbeast or a few taking spirits you totally can go without a druid providing boons are covered. But that does mean you need soulbeasts too. Warrior exists in most groups because only it provides banners.

    Since alacren and FB came into the scene boon providers are now ....well, more diverse. Especially since firebrigade is much easier to play, i personally have encountered way less trouble finding boon-sharers- but groups still take a while to form because of the other specific roles (often which is on the boon sharers to do).

    The only way to resolve waiting is make more classes eligible for more roles, which is a veeeeeery complicated issue to fix due to the specific nature of various raid roles. I mentioned how chronotank is specifically better than other classes for tanking - this can only be resolved by giving other classes equal access to similar types of damage mitigation in the meta build. Aegis FB absolutely can tank - but not on all encounters unlike chrono which is a universal tank. There are roles like heal alacren on adina where the renegade always switches to ventari to reflect between each phase, this role can only be taken by other classes with high reflect uptime.

    Or make raids require less roles. 10 dps (no kiters or tanks) and groups would fill np.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    I don't think invalidating all boon sharing builds for one build that just does everything, be it Chrono or Thief or whatever else, is a good or fun idea.
    In my experience the waiting for a group to form also isn't the biggest downtime of pugs, but rather the constant waiting, breaks and ready checks before every encounter and after every wipe, as well as people being under the impression they need to swap to the most optimal DPS for every single encounter, which takes much, much more time than just going in a beating the entire wing with some suboptimal DPS's on some encounters, as the swapping often takes longer than the boss fight itself would have.

    What people need to understand, and what I wish there were sites for, isn't boss comps, but Wing comps, which help you get through each entire Wing with as little downtime and swapping as possible, which would pretty much cut Raid times by over 50% at times, swapping only when really necessary for major performance differences and mechanical necessities.

    The better approach is more diversity in what professions can fulfill each role to get more people interested in trying them out, not less, making you wait for that one person who is willing to shoulder all the responsibility of providing all boons, tanking etc., on that one profession that can, which they may or may not enjoy playing.

    Boon Thieves OP'ness is only kept in check by it's limited application, and while Boon Thief being OP at every encounter might reduce swapping, imo it would come at a far too great cost for gamebalance and class diversity to be desirable.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

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