How do regular Dragons relate/tie-in with the Elder Dragons?

I mean, the Elder Dragons are only dragons by name. If anytihng, they are actually Elementals simply taking the shape of various dragon-like forms. Meanwhile regular Dragons exists as a more animal-like species. They have male and female sexes, they reproduce and they live and they die - like the rest of us. Yet they clearly seem to have some kind of relationship with the Elder Dragons since they rank among their most powerful minions...

Outside of Glint, Aurene and Vlast, how many other dragons have we seen in Tyria? I'm going to exclude the dragon in Cantha for now, because we don't know what changes might happen with him by the time he might rejoin the story. Otherwise, I haven't seen a single one that's not tied back to an Elder Dragon in some way, shape or form.

Weren't there bone dragons in GW1?

I believe we only have conjecture to go on, in that somehow, long long ago, there were dragons, six of them grew to become powerful and through their power were able to corrupt everything, including other dragons, into their service, and thus the cycle began. Another conjecture is that the elder dragons have simply existed as long as tyria has existed, and while there may have once been an abundance of free, uncorrupted dragons, all of them were corrupted and enslaved by the dragons, with glint freed from kralkatorriks corruption by ritual.

As far as all the information we have on dragons as a whole, we only have guesses at how it all works out. Unless there's some crucial lore i'm missing.

@Rognik.2579 said:Outside of Glint, Aurene and Vlast, how many other dragons have we seen in Tyria? I'm going to exclude the dragon in Cantha for now, because we don't know what changes might happen with him by the time he might rejoin the story. Otherwise, I haven't seen a single one that's not tied back to an Elder Dragon in some way, shape or form.

Indeed. But the question is: are they created like that, or are they corrupted like other living beings on Tyria? The fact that Glint was "freed" (which I take to mean uncorrupted) and returned to a form where she was able to lay eggs would suggest to me that dragons are not created to be minions of the Elder Dragons, but rather corrupted (maybe willingly at some point, like the Svanir?).

Plus, we have wyvrens that appear to be on that animalistic level and wyvrens and proper dragons are often connected in the universes they share.

they're just there to be hot, sexy, and big

@Lowlights.7021 said:they're just there to be hot, sexy, and big

I prefer my dragons smol and purple-haired, personally - and with poofball tails.

But each to his or her own.

What seems to me is the absence of "dragons of flesh and blood", is just a way to make the dragons of GW2 unique.Though I particularly find tedious and childsh elemental based enemies. Is it serious that we are constantly fighting air, water, earth, fire, purple crystals and ice? RGB, color based stuff, polygons, is just a appel to childs. Our final big enemy, the one big bad guy behind all misteries, even bigger and secretive than abbadon, will be a tetris game of dragons, with their colors, their elements and their geometric shapes. the 5 year olds childs will love it.

I think that's why I still find Mordrem the most interesting ones, especially the Mordrem guards, and the Zhaythan undeads.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Weren't there bone dragons in GW1?Oh, yes. There were bone dragons, including one super powerful boss out in western Kryta, as I recall. I don't remember much more than that at the moment, though. They might not even be true dragons, but bones reshaped into a draconic shape.@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:Outside of Glint, Aurene and Vlast, how many other dragons have we seen in Tyria? I'm going to exclude the dragon in Cantha for now, because we don't know what changes might happen with him by the time he might rejoin the story. Otherwise, I haven't seen a single one that's not tied back to an Elder Dragon in some way, shape or form.

Ultimately, we don't know what the relation is. Glint in Edge of Destiny makes it sound like once upon a time, the world was dominated by dragons, even before the previous dragonrise.

Out of all the dragons (Bone Dragons, similar but unrelated Rotscale, Glint+Vlast+Aurene, Saltspray Dragons (including Kuunavang, Albax, Shiny and other now-dead named ones), Turtle Dragons, and Dragonmosses), only Glint (and her scions) are known to have a direct relation to the Elder Dragons. There's also some very draconic-like species, like wyverns, drakes, and hydras - we know of a relation between wyverns and drakes, but whether there is a relation between them with dragons and hydras is unclear. All four species can be tied pretty heavily to elements (especially in GW2) including non-standard ones like poison and sulfur (only other species that are tied to elements are djinn and imps, the former being an evolution of elementals and the latter being a form of demon).

However, it should be noted that Rotscale and Kuunavang are both put on par to Glint even after we learned that Glint was a dragon champion. Which is always interesting.

This said, @"Oglaf.1074": I'm not so sure you're correct with proclaiming that Glint lays eggs. While yes, she does have eggs, we cannot be clear 1) when those eggs were laid and 2) if those were laid in a traditional biological sense. We see dragon minions creating "eggs" after all (See: Destroyer Queen) and we see pregnant creatures become corrupted then lay eggs (see: Risen Spiders, Risen Chickens, Risen Drakes, Branded Devourers). Its hard to say which is the case for Glint. And you claim that Glint was "reverted to a state she can lay eggs" but this is simply false - when the Forgotten cleansed Glint, they only were able to effect her mind, not her body.

@Rognik.2579 said:Oh, yes. There were bone dragons, including one super powerful boss out in western Kryta, as I recall. I don't remember much more than that at the moment, though. They might not even be true dragons, but bones reshaped into a draconic shape.

No, they were actual dragon corpses according to GW1 lore. Well, more accurately they were half of actual dragon corpses - the idea was that when they were reanimated and pulled themselves out of the ground, their skeletal bodies couldn't handle the pure force and tore in half in the process.

@Rognik.2579 said:No guarantee the wyverns are related to the dragons, though. It's very likely they're as much related to dragons as monkeys are to humans.

I generally think of it as being a scale. Drakes are possibly closest to the 'ancestral' species - the crocodile-like magicless drakes of Elona like Irontooth and Steelfang Drakes might in fact be an indication of where the group originated (which likely gives them a common ancestor with dinosaurs, but without actually being dinosaurs but being archosaurs instead... on which note, it is noteworthy that there are no pterosaurs in Tyria that we've seen thus far). Hydras are probably one offshoot that magically mutated to grow additional heads, while rockhides developed armoured hides. Saltsprays and wyverns are probably fairly closely related, with wyverns being larger but less intelligent.

At some stage, some mutation turned the tetrapod wyverns or Saltsprays into hexapod (four legs and wings) dragons, with a small group managing to absorb enough magic to become Elder Dragons and dominate the rest.

Hey guys, I know the convo kinda died down a bit, but I came across something fascinating in the AMA while researching for another question:

NeokOnline:Is Glint Kralkatorrik's daughter?

ANet_ChelseyYes, in a way of speaking. Glint was created by Kralkatorrik as his scion. (While "scion" technically means "son" the story team is using it to mean any offspring, son or daughter).

I had always thought Glint was a dragon corrupted by Kralkatorrik.

EDIT: link https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0gfua/

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Out of all the dragons (Bone Dragons, similar but unrelated Rotscale, Glint+Vlast+Aurene, Saltspray Dragons (including Kuunavang, Albax, Shiny and other now-dead named ones), Turtle Dragons, and Dragonmosses), only Glint (and her scions) are known to have a direct relation to the Elder Dragons.

Don't forget the dozens of other dragons we see in GW2 in your list. The world boss champions, and the dragons all over Orr. All of them are related to the elder dragons (unless you meant "biologically" related and then I guess we don't know.)

@Fluffball.8307 said:Don't forget the dozens of other dragons we see in GW2 in your list. The world boss champions, and the dragons all over Orr. All of them are related to the elder dragons (unless you meant "biologically" related and then I guess we don't know.)As I recall, most of Zhaitans dragon champions, like the ones found all over Orr, weren't actual corrupted dragons, but rather just huge bundles of the dragon's corruption, like The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag are.

Glint was created by Kralk. If we're calling Glint a dragon, I would also call Tequatl a dragon.

Yeah I'm pretty sure they are corrupted dragons. In Zhaitan's case I've always assumed they are simply zombie dragons raised from the dead - as is is his way.

I had a theory about this a while ago that they're the same. We now know that the Elder Dragons that remain are all that there are (the Antikytheria strongly suggests this), but i doesn't mean that there couldn't have been more in the distant past. I was also bang on about the consequences of killing an Elder Dragon re: magic, so it might be worth another look.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Hey guys, I know the convo kinda died down a bit, but I came across something fascinating in the AMA while researching for another question:

NeokOnline:Is Glint Kralkatorrik's daughter?

ANet_ChelseyYes, in a way of speaking. Glint was created by Kralkatorrik as his scion. (While "scion" technically means "son" the story team is using it to mean any offspring, son or daughter).

I had always thought Glint was a dragon corrupted by Kralkatorrik.

EDIT: link https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0gfua/

It can be both, depending on when Glint was "born", Kralkatorrik's origins - and how Kralkatorrik "created" Glint.

@Fluffball.8307 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Out of all the dragons (Bone Dragons, similar but unrelated Rotscale, Glint+Vlast+Aurene, Saltspray Dragons (including Kuunavang, Albax, Shiny and other now-dead named ones), Turtle Dragons, and Dragonmosses), only Glint (and her scions) are known to have a direct relation to the Elder Dragons.

Those are all dragon minions, half of them constructs outright (Claws of Jormag, The Shatterers, and Shadow of the Dragon definitely are; it's unclear if the risen dragons are corrupted dragon corpses or akin to abominations).

"Zombie dragons" is entirely plausible, given the existence of Bone Dragons in GW1 originating from Orr. Alternatively (or even "in addition"), those Bone Dragons could be the corpses of previous-dragonrise Risen Dragons that were killed over the ages.

Again, I disagree. There is no evidence of these dragons being "constructs" at all.

Quite the opposite as corruption is a thing.

If the Claw and Shatterer are supposed to be the epitome of Elder Dragon minions, of course they will look so corrupted to the point of almost appearing artifical in nature. There's simply nothing of their original nature left - fate we see as a trend with Dragon minions after all. Like those Sons of Svanir who have become four-legged monsters.

If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true. However, the reverse does not have one critical thing going for it: the actual appearance of the models.

If you look at The Shatterer the thing is literally hollow and its "skin" is nothing but stone. Whereas any other dragon minion retains its actual skin, with crystalline insides. I do also recall it being said that the Shatterers were made out of the land itself, as I recall speculating in response to that, that The Shatterer was Kralkatorrik's "learned lesson" of Glint which was once a living being before being corrupted (as we could see actual skin on her).

The Claws of Jormag itself seems to be bones brought together - much like the Dragonspawn from Edge of Destiny, but in dragon form. Now, it is entirely possible that the Claws of Jormag bones that got corrupted were originally draconic bones, but nothing to support that claim.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true.

Except everyone and their dog knows about dragon corruption being a thing.

As such, in the face of no evidence whatsoever that these simply aren't corrupted dragons, it is the far, faaaar more likely option.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true.

But we know that the elder dragons are capable of forming minions out of anything. We know of one Elder Dragon who goes so far as to only do that, Primordus, and those minions have such a wide variety in shapes, including the two wyvern destroyers in Draconis mons (making it only slight adjustments until we got destroyer dragons). We also have confirmation that Kralkatorrik does the same with Branded crystals too, Mordremoth did the same as well cause nothing looks like those mordrem thrashers (the giant flower things that steal life and spin in circles) or the vinetooths (though those are more "giant four legged creature, which there's plenty of in the jungle), leaving only Jormag and Zhaitan the odd ones out (considering the dragons we know the capabilities off, so Bubbles is out of the convo for the moment). And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure those with more knowledge could provide better examples.

So it's not the "far, faaaar more likely option" that you think it to be.

EDIT: dont know why i said Jormag did it with Branded crystals

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true.

"Everyone and their dog" should also know that the Elder Dragons are fully capable of corrupting the landscape and making minions out of that. Otherwise branded earth elementals, branded sparks, branded storm elementals, icebrood ice elementals, etc. wouldn't be a thing. If they couldn't, the destroyers and mordrem would be completely different.

"Everyone and their dog" should also know that dragons are not so common place, or even so rare, that they can be corrupted by the Elder Dragons willy nilly, enough to fill the skies above the Shiverpeaks or above Orr with them.

"Everyone and their dog" knows that Risen Abominations are made by stitching together parts of corpses, so there's no reason to believe that Tequatl etc. aren't done the same, when we see no living, non-corrupted dragons.

The strongest evidence for all or most of these dragon lieutenants to not be corrupted dragons is the total and utter lack of non-corrupted dragons.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true.

I'm going to have to agree with Konig here, especially with his last line...at this point in time we have seen a grand total of 2 non-corrupted dragons, and one of them is now dead: Vlast and Aurene. Which means as far as we know there is only 1 non-corrupted dragon left in the world, and that's Aurene and we have no clue where she is at the moment.

Well we know that Dragon's exist in Cantha as well, such as Kuunavang and Albax and other saltspray dragons. Who knows if when that content is released they will be revisited. Kuunavang was celestial, and it seems that family of dragons were not tied in with attunements per se.

@FLEUR.7458 said:Well we know that Dragon's exist in Cantha as well, such as Kuunavang and Albax and other saltspray dragons. Who knows if when that content is released they will be revisited. Kuunavang was celestial, and it seems that family of dragons were not tied in with attunements per se.

I was thinking that...

On the other hand, the Canthan dragons are noticeably different to what gets called a dragon on the northern continent. Saltsprays are, essentially, lighter and more intelligent wyverns, while Rockhides are, well, dragon turtles. None of the Canthan dragons have a six-limbed body plan. So the nature of Canthan dragons might not tell us anything about whether dragons with four legs and wings existed except as scions of the Elder Dragons (free-willed or otherwise).