Potential future Necro changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Potential future Necro changes

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 7, 2019 in Necromancer

Latest updates:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019#latest

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Greetings again all,

Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.
Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

  • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
  • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
  • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
  • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

>

Necromancer

  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

<1

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they look fine.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    they look fine.

    I hope they give us something back though if they were to reduce our OPness in those areas.
    The nerfs might be fine for large group fights but solo/small scale is going to become even weaker for us.

    Like if they nerf our barriers, give us more solo/small scale survivability with an improved portal...maybe 1200 range...instant cast...
    or reduce cast time on trail of anguish...

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Rework staff away from aoe. Most spammy weapon in game.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    I do think that's a completely wrong approach to nerfing scourge.
    If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

    But I don't think that barriers are the problem for scourge. The aoe- spam is much more a problem

    I do agree, however, ANet won't change barrier scaling because it affect more professions than just scourge which mean that such change could easily make or break the elementalist or the scrapper as a consequence.

    The scourge's aoe spam isn't much of an issue, it's the fact that those aoe are doing everything at the same time which is an issue. Scourge need to be the support e-spec of the necromancer, it's F skills don't need to deal direct damage, condition damage, support, defense and control all at the same time. I mean, who in it's right mind would think that skills that do all of that in an aoe are balanced and good for the game?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    I do think that's a completely wrong approach to nerfing scourge.
    If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

    But I don't think that barriers are the problem for scourge. The aoe- spam is much more a problem

    I do agree, however, ANet won't change barrier scaling because it affect more professions than just scourge which mean that such change could easily make or break the elementalist or the scrapper as a consequence.

    You don't need to change barrier scaling overall, just the healing power coefficients of f3 and scourge healskill

    The scourge's aoe spam isn't much of an issue, it's the fact that those aoe are doing everything at the same time which is an issue. Scourge need to be the support e-spec of the necromancer, it's F skills don't need to deal direct damage, condition damage, support, defense and control all at the same time. I mean, who in it's right mind would think that skills that do all of that in an aoe are balanced and good for the game?

    And there's other skills that are far more busted. Like dolyak stance or firebrand tomes

  • Classes that spew boons. I'll leave that right there.

  • Kiroshima.8497Kiroshima.8497 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are we nerfing necro scepter nd not scourge's damage? If anything barrier healing power scaling should be buffed on scourge.

    Core Necro should be the mixed range damage dealer (trait to adjust). Make Shroud 4 and Shroud 5 ranged, centered on the target, but casts on self with no target. Add aoe to Doom, and make Life Blast aoe with a trait, but spends more life force.

    Reaper should be the melee specialist (heavy condi or power options, make deathly chill inflict 1 torment OR 2 bleeds)

    Scourge the support specialist and boon corruptor.

    First, remove all damage from F1. Adjust to grant barrier on placement.
    Increase the healing ratio and nerf the base values of barrier.

    Punishments are true corruptions, no longer inflict torment and cripple.

    F2 converts 1 condition into barrier.
    F3 is fine.
    F4 grants barrier to nearby allies per enemy feared (check for stab first, applied in 1 chunk to avoid barrier traits multi procing).
    F5 no longer inflicts torment nor damage, instead turns into a 2nd skill that consumes all barrier on the necro for damage and burning. The more barrier you have, the more damage and burning stacks. F5-1 cooldown reduced, F5-2 cooldown should be like 45.

    As for traits, they will focus on raw barrier, boon rip and burning, or on barrier utility.

    Abrasive grit: F3 grants protection and retaliation.
    Fell Beacon: Torch increases concentration and expertise instead. Torch skills grant barrier to allies in their aoe.
    Nourishing Ashes: Heal allies when their barrier runs out. No longer grants life force.
    Desert Empowerment: F2 converts an additional condition into barrier. Whenever you cleanse yourself or allies, grant might to them. (consume conditions could give you all the might).
    Sadistic Searing: Gain life force and inflict burning whenever you WOULD corrupt boons on enemies (enemies with no boons wouldbe burned still). Punishment cd still reduced.
    Herald of Sorrow: Granting barrier to allies (not self) reduces CD of f5-2 by 1 second. f5-2 only removes 50% of the necro's barrier.
    Sand Savant unchanged, no longer necessary since damage has been removed at base.
    Demonic Lore: Feed from Corruption goes here, additionally corrupt an additional boon whenever you corrupt or remove boons.
    Feed From Corruption: Replaced with a new effect called Sand Dispersion. Skills that do not pulse barrier grant stability and aegis.

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A sand flare nerf would be the only one of these I care about, and even then I could live with it as I only run it in group comps.

  • @Axl.8924 said:
    Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

    viability was already lacking sorely in PVE, guess they want it to start lacking in all gamemodes. SIGH

  • As someone who hasn't done pvp of any sort yet, but plays scourge is his favorite in pve, it sort of sucks to know that once I get around to doing some pvp that I would be in the hole defensively. Scourge doesn't have an extensive defensive toolkit: shields and some damage reduction abilities. I can understand that Anet wants to limit giving the shields to other characters that do have extensive defensive toolkits making them supermen but I think this is the wrong approach.

  • Well, at least we know that Dark Path pathing is working as intended.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2019

    They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

    Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • A guy wears a blouse to the Announcement, and now more of this. I'm for 1 glad theres no additional Elite. They havent even sorted core out yet. Somethings in the water over there, stuffs gone loco.

  • @Axl.8924 said:
    They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

    Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

    their vision of necro is to make it so bad that no one will play it anymore so they can just remove it without anyone noticing

  • @dceptaconroy.7928 said:
    A guy wears a blouse to the Announcement, and now more of this. I'm for 1 glad theres no additional Elite. They havent even sorted core out yet. Somethings in the water over there, stuffs gone loco.

    a new elite would be necros only chance to keep viability

  • Yeah, but how about they fix what they've already got. I would put the farm up guaranteeing the new Elite would be any less busted.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

    Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

    Tbh.
    The proposed changes will change absolutely nothing about wvw meta

    But yes, scourge already kinda falls off.
    I played wvw this weekend for quite a bit.
    And top 5 places in dmg done were always eles and revs.
    Then me(as reaper) and another scourge, then some revs.

    What the proposed will changes do:
    Nerf solo scourges or scourges in very small groups
    Not make scourge the support, but make it purely dmg - which in my opinion is the wrong approach to the problem as well as not the intention behind scourge.

    And if its intended, that scourge is purely for dmg, then it needs some huge buffs for pve

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    i think its always the same point. anet is generally nerfing traits/skills that due to necromancer get weaker in every aspect of the game OR often in the past nerfs happen that make him weaker in solo play/pve without touching him in big group fights. the art to balance necro is to understand what makes him strong in different areas.

    the main reason for scourge strenghts in zerg fights in sand savant that increase the number of targets i can fastly hit (with 1 big shade) to 5 instead of 3. it is an increase of 66% in dmg. also it increase the range from 900 to 1200.

    if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

    recreating f3 and sand flare to give teammates just half barrier of what necro gets himself and the new sand savant trait can increase teammate barrier back to 100%.
    in that way, on the same build like before you just would have flat number (=dmg) reduction and range reduction for zergfights, while in small scale you barely played with big shades so necros didnt get touched there.. anet should never nerf boon corrupt since boon corrupt already got nerfed a tons of times, WHILE it is necros identity (and anet ALSO denies to nerf mirages dodge invul because it is the identity of mirage).

    but past showed often enough, anet discuss some changes, but finally, whatever people conclude about the suggested changes, anet never changed one of their ideas. i think changes are done and we have to handle it.

    but funny thing is, i swear everyone people will just stack scourge EVEN more in wvw to compensate the nerfes because you absolutely NEED a counter to the absurd boon spam of FB and rev

  • Necromancer
    * Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
    * Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

    This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

    You're wrong sand savant have nothing to do with the problem. Sand savant is just "QoL". The issue isn't the opportunity to hit, it's the fact that each hit support, control, defend and damage at the same time. Core traits overload shroud#1 with effects and scourge's F skills all proc shroud#1, that's where the issue lie. There is no issue with a skill that convert condition into boon whatever it's radius and whether it hit 5 or 10 targets, but there is an issue if this same skill additionnally deal damage, apply both multiple damaging conditions and control condition, grant might to the caster... etc.

    Sand savant's coverage isn't an issue, nerfing/changing it won't have any positive changes on scourge and how it is perceived by other players. Scourge's players might try to argue that they need to do more things to achieve their results without sand savant, but in the end with or without sand savant the scourge will still be able to overload the same number of players with conditions, damages, control effect all while supporting their allies.

    And the worst part of changing/removing sand savant is that by doing so, you create a need for more scourges in the zerg because you make scourge defensively less performant while on the move.

    Just remove the F1 proc on other shade skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill and absolutely nobody is going to care about sand savant's coverage. By doing this you could even remove the big orange circle and absolutely nobody would protest. There is a need to address the issue not the thing that carry the issue, you don't cure a sickness by killing the person who's sick but by treating him.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    Necromancer
    * Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
    * Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

    This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

    This is a direct nerf to the scourge's solo survivability, how do you address that? Let's not forget that scourge already lose the shroud which is the only way for the necromancer to mitigate damage where other profession often have access to more mobility, block, evade and other invulnerability.

    Imagine all invuln/block skills and effects in the game replaced by a puny 1,5k barrier, do you think they would even be looked at by the players?

    It's not by nerfing the scourge's support and personnal survivability that the zergs will take less scourges, if anything the zergs will stack more scourges when they will feel they are to frail while the scourge will only be viable in the vacuum of a zerg.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    Necromancer
    * Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.
    * Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

    This will give pugs a better change to fight against organized groups. I would suggest lowering the Base Healing/Barrier Value even further and increasing the Healing Power Coefficient instead, to reduce the group sustenance of Power Scourge while retain a spot for dedicated Support/Healing/Screening Scourge, which is nowadays still not much seen.

    This is a direct nerf to the scourge's solo survivability, how do you address that? Let's not forget that scourge already lose the shroud which is the only way for the necromancer to mitigate damage where other profession often have access to more mobility, block, evade and other invulnerability.

    I agree. Howe about limiting my previously recommended solution to allies only and buff the Barrier on self instead?

    Imagine all invuln/block skills and effects in the game replaced by a puny 1,5k barrier, do you think they would even be looked at by the players?

    It's not by nerfing the scourge's support and personnal survivability that the zergs will take less scourges, if anything the zergs will stack more scourges when they will feel they are to frail while the scourge will only be viable in the vacuum of a zerg.

    It was actually never my intention to curl the presence of the Scourge class in WvW by making such suggestion.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I hope they give us something back though if they were to reduce our OPness in those areas.
    The nerfs might be fine for large group fights but solo/small scale is going to become even weaker for us.

    Or Scourges accept that having superior condition application AND superior barrier is a bit too much.
    Although I'd rather have Anet shove of some of the overpowered conditions instead of the sustain and convert Scourge into a support spec, as it should have been from the start.

  • Ghostt.1293Ghostt.1293 Member ✭✭✭

    power reapers yeaaaah

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    if anet would just rework sand savant to create a trait that supports barrier apply would take out a lot of direct dmg because of number decrease and indirect dmg because of less range/less opportunity to hit.

    Sand savant's coverage isn't an issue, nerfing/changing it won't have any positive changes on scourge and how it is perceived by other players. Scourge's players might try to argue that they need to do more things to achieve their results without sand savant, but in the end with or without sand savant the scourge will still be able to overload the same number of players with conditions, damages, control effect all while supporting their allies.

    balancing is about every class has same potential to act. and you described just what every class on every meta build can do. necro in special ALWAYS had all offensive AND defensive power on shroud/shade (class mechanic) skills while nothing outside of it. but thats another topic. you could bring some of the utility from shade skills to weapon skills and necro would EXACTLY be like all other classes, with tonnes of dmg, sustain, all over the place. thats not the issue with necro, its the general balancing in this game. wether this balancing is an issue or not depends on your personal preferrings.

    but i am talking about its strenght in zergfihgts, and with less range and less power dmg the insta burst dmg will never come as hard as it comes now. so people have more space for movement and for reactions. thats all whats needed.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    deleted deleted

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    They should nerf boons nerf dmg on scourge and make it a support and let us make core necro condi again #makenecrogreatagain.

    Can a member of ANET please come here and explain their vision for necromancer? please? tell us what we are supposed to do in WVW if we are supposed to play because you are killing us in every mode. We are already barely viable in pve and now you nerf us into the ground.

    Tbh.
    The proposed changes will change absolutely nothing about wvw meta

    But yes, scourge already kinda falls off.
    I played wvw this weekend for quite a bit.
    And top 5 places in dmg done were always eles and revs.
    Then me(as reaper) and another scourge, then some revs.

    What the proposed will changes do:
    Nerf solo scourges or scourges in very small groups
    Not make scourge the support, but make it purely dmg - which in my opinion is the wrong approach to the problem as well as not the intention behind scourge.

    And if its intended, that scourge is purely for dmg, then it needs some huge buffs for pve

    Eles and revs being top top 5 sounds balanced to be honest, Since Weavers are specced for damage so if they don't do amazing damage then they are useless, and revs have dat hammer,Scourges like I've said, do decent amounts of damage, Barrier spam and Boon strips, I've been top DPS on scourge in WvW yesterday aswell as 2nd or 3rd on Strips the changes won't make that much of a difference except a little barrier loss for Scourge and everyone else

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Eles and revs being top top 5 sounds balanced to be honest, Since Weavers are specced for damage so if they don't do amazing damage then they are useless, and revs have dat hammer,Scourges like I've said, do decent amounts of damage, Barrier spam and Boon strips, I've been top DPS on scourge in WvW yesterday aswell as 2nd or 3rd on Strips the changes won't make that much of a difference except a little barrier loss for Scourge and everyone else

    The crux of the issue isn't that the change will hurt the scourge in zergs, in fact they won't even be felt in zergs. The real issue is for solo play where the already lacking survivability take a hit. Individually a scourge isn't anything special, if ANet's dev start to eat at scourge's defense they will just become UP. ANet can easily reduce other profession's elite specs defenses because other professions have various way to defend themselve at their core. The scourge on another hand sacrifice it's shroud for the sand shades and unfortunately the shroud is the only defense mechanism given to the core necromancer.

    I doubt anet focus on solo content in PvP or WvW since at the moment they only have PvP which is 5 man group play (I wouldn't say 2v2 is supported) or WvW which from where I see it, they mainly focus on large group play over roaming where Scourge is amazing

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For wvw i dont think these changes will matter too much to be honest that said the heavy barrier nerfs will hurt scourge alot in spvp if they get applied there as well.

    Sand Cascade's Barrier is already pretty crappy in terms of amount and to cut it by a 1/3rd of what it is already is a massive hit. I would argue that the life force cost and cd of the skill is no longer fitting for the amount of barrier its going to provide
    You could say some of the same for Sand Flare in terms of his cd.

    Scourge was brought into the game ideally as a off support and was suppose to have more support given to it and more power taken away from it why this never happened im not sure.

    I don't even main scourge and i think the barrier nerfs are a bit unjust here but thats just me at least for pvp. Even if we look at the fact that Sand Cascade can be extended via shades this still does not explain the hit to Sand Flare where the scourge needs to be standing next to those it wants to give it too which is much more of a risk. Not once have i ever thought "oh that darn barrier is just too much." Any time fighting as scourge.

    I get what they are trying to do here for wvw in the instance where you have a high number of scourges together providing barrier and all but still.

    The scepter nerfs are understandable though. Granted i still dont think they were crazy to start with but i see why they did it i suppose.

  • nullixin.9462nullixin.9462 Member
    edited September 3, 2019

    Going to agree with the others about Scourge's solo/duo capability. If Devouring Darkness is an issue in zerg, keep 3 corruptions on main target while 1 or 2 on collateral targets. We're not saying that boon spam vs. corrupt is healthy to begin with, so maybe start giving support classes unique buffs like druid spirits, non-CC stability stack removal, aegis? If barrier sharing is an issue, make it weaker on non-caster. If F1-F5 are too loaded with debilitating conditions (looking at mesmer shatter here too), though condi clear haven't really been any issue in organised groups lately anyways, do at least give another burst attack on torch or utility. I mean, please do something to Serpent Siphon.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    Wasn't the nerf to devouring darkness kinda a terrible idea? its going to be hard to make core viable if you nerf stuff because of scourge and make core kitten.

    Both of the nerfs to devouring darkness and feast of corruption are both nerfs to core, which core really doesn't need in WVW and spvp.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Boys we can have hope:

    Greetings fellow Tyrians,

    We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

    "This is not the full list of changes"
    I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

    It's really annoying:
    Condi bosses: mirage/renegade
    Condi Bosses with adds: firebrand
    Power bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

    And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

    If you can't give new raid content, making drastic changes is much appreciated.
    You can create content by bringing whole new classes to raids, making them meta and making meta builds "only ok". That is like giving new content.

    I have to say it again. I like it, that future balance updates can be discussed beforehand.
    What I don't like about this post, is that anet isn't asking for specific class feedback.
    Also: why not show the whole balance changes?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Boys we can have hope:

    Greetings fellow Tyrians,

    We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

    "This is not the full list of changes"
    I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

    It's really annoying:
    Condi bosses: mirage/renegade
    Condi Bosses with adds: firebrand
    Power bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

    And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

    Im not so sure i agree here
    Firebrand and Dragonhunter are strong classes not because their elite specs are over tuned they are strong because their core foundation is very solid and very strong.
    Guardian is a very very strong and stable profession all on its own. Its still used in other game modes and so any elite bonus stack ontop of it is strong.

    The reason why scourge lacks is because core necromancer lacks, in its utility, its weapon skills, and its traits. Reaper is doing ok for the moment but reaper is literally over tuned and kitten into like 3 very specific traits right now. IF the reaper line itself gets a hard nerf it will be very crappy because core necro is crappy.

    Both Reaper and Scourge lines needed or need to be over tuned because the core lines are in shambles the core weapon skills outside of axe maybe are in shambles and the utilities are still super outdated.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm just trying to find an enemy with 3 boons in PVE. B)

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etterwyn.5263 said:
    I'm just trying to find an enemy with 3 boons in PVE. B)

    out side of fractals i dont think there is one some of the awakened get like 2.... lol

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etterwyn.5263 said:
    I'm just trying to find an enemy with 3 boons in PVE. B)

    Just try to imagine how useful vigor might be for PvE mobs...

  • @Etterwyn.5263 said:
    I'm just trying to find an enemy with 3 boons in PVE. B)

    One of the Honor of the Waves final bosses gets 3 boons. Granted, they're all pulsing...

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Boys we can have hope:

    Greetings fellow Tyrians,

    We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

    "This is not the full list of changes"
    I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

    It's really annoying:
    Condi bosses: mirage/renegade
    Condi Bosses with adds: firebrand
    Power bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

    And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

    If you can't give new raid content, making drastic changes is much appreciated.
    You can create content by bringing whole new classes to raids, making them meta and making meta builds "only ok". That is like giving new content.

    I have to say it again. I like it, that future balance updates can be discussed beforehand.
    What I don't like about this post, is that anet isn't asking for specific class feedback.
    Also: why not show the whole balance changes?

    You did notice that the changes was WvW and pvp only?

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    I like the proposed changes to barrier and do not mind the rest. Because Necromancer and Scourge stack so easily, there should be a trade between offense support and defense support.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Latest updates:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019#latest

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Greetings again all,

    Thanks for the feedback regarding the proposed changes posted last week.

    Below you'll find a set of changes we're looking at which is WvW-centric, as well as a few modifications to some of the changes from the last thread. With these changes the objective is to bring the dominant builds and compositions into line and offer more build diversity to the existing meta. Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

    As before, this isn't the full set of changes we're preparing and this is not a call for general profession feedback.
    Here are a few questions to think about while looking over the potential changes:

    • Would your gameplay change as a result? How?
    • Do you feel these changes would improve or worsen the state of the game?
    • Are you looking forward to these potential changes? Why?
    • What are your concerns and the consequences you expect with this set of changes?

    Here is what we're looking at. Previously posted and unchanged items are italicized at the bottom of each profession's section so that it should be easier to focus on the new and changed parts of this set of changes:

    Items

    • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    >

    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm excited when I saw this:

    Because there's been some confusion, we want to clarify that we're continuing to balance for other game types, including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Necromancer

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Sand Savant: We've wanted to address the target cap issue with this trait in WvW for a while, however it is an incredibly gnarly problem because this is a large functional change that would need to be preserved between game modes. This was why the cooldown split was made on this trait originally. We hear you that the trait is an issue and we're working on it. This is a tough case to crack in a manner that does not leave one mode suffering due to the changes made for another.
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

    • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
    • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
    • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

    And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    In my opinion, one of the biggest issues is, that the F abilities of Scourge are usable while the Scourge is disabled.
    There is no point in, for example, 'Bull' Charging' the scourge because the scourge can simply kitten out the F abilities and the Warrior is dead within seconds.
    That's the very first thing Anet should have changed if they even tried to want to balance scourge.
    And the condition application and damage also is unfittingly high for a support spec.

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