Potential future Necro changes - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Potential future Necro changes

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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    In my opinion, one of the biggest issues is, that the F abilities of Scourge are usable while the Scourge is disabled.
    There is no point in, for example, 'Bull' Charging' the scourge because the scourge can simply kitten out the F abilities and the Warrior is dead within seconds.
    That's the very first thing Anet should have changed if they even tried to want to balance scourge.
    And the condition application and damage also is unfittingly high for a support spec.

    If it doesn't do any damage the fact that they are instant isn't even an issue for this same warrior. If on the opposite these instant skills focus on keeping the scourge alive it make the fight "fair" because, again, the core necromancer only offer shroud as a defensive mechanism. There is no shield to block, no stance to be invulnerable, no dodge or evade on skill. Do the warrior have a cast time on it's blocking skill, invuln stance and other evade skills? Nope. The inherent disadvantage of using health to counter damage justify the relative freedom to use other skill while shielding oneself, yet in my opinion it doesn't justify that those skills also allow the scourge to deal damage and apply potentially 5-6 conditions at once.

    This is why the issue is the manifest sand shade proc and not the skills themselve. Those skills can be instant, on short CD, castable when disabled and even affect 10 targets as long as they just do what their tooltype say they do. It's the constant cancer of damages and conditions that is tied to manifest sand shade proc which is the source of the problem.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Some hope at last for Death Magic!
    WvW changes look fine.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

    • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
    • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
    • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

    And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

    The change to barrier scaling looks good to me. Players using Scourge should have to choose between barrier, condi, or sustain. The adjustments will encourage splitting Scourge functions so, while there will still appear to be a lot of Scourges, some will lean more toward barrier slaves, which should reduce the offensive pressure a little.

    Corrupting boons has to stay, I think, but reducing dps from it on a heal Scourge seems proper.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Boys we can have hope:

    Greetings fellow Tyrians,

    We've been thinking about implementing the following changes and wanted to share them with you to hear your thoughts and feedback. We’re aiming to bring into line some of the more dominant builds and compositions of the current WvW meta so that new options can be brought to the table, so the bulk of the changes shared here are WvW-centric. This is not the full list of changes that are being considered for the next balance update.

    "This is not the full list of changes"
    I really hope, we get a meta shakeup for pve.

    It's really annoying:
    Condi bosses: mirage/renegade
    Condi Bosses with adds: firebrand
    Power bosses: thief/Dragonhunter

    And that for several patches now. Time to nerf those classes.

    If you can't give new raid content, making drastic changes is much appreciated.
    You can create content by bringing whole new classes to raids, making them meta and making meta builds "only ok". That is like giving new content.

    I have to say it again. I like it, that future balance updates can be discussed beforehand.
    What I don't like about this post, is that anet isn't asking for specific class feedback.
    Also: why not show the whole balance changes?

    You did notice that the changes was WvW and pvp only?

    Guess you didn't read the post carefully.
    But in the new one, they specifically said, there will also be pve changes

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Some hope at last for Death Magic!
    WvW changes look fine.

    Yes. Let's see what they come up with.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

    • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
    • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
    • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

    And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

    The change to barrier scaling looks good to me. Players using Scourge should have to choose between barrier, condi, or sustain. The adjustments will encourage splitting Scourge functions so, while there will still appear to be a lot of Scourges, some will lean more toward barrier slaves, which should reduce the offensive pressure a little.

    Corrupting boons has to stay, I think, but reducing dps from it on a heal Scourge seems proper.

    Sadly that's not what they are doing. They only increase barrier skaling on f5.

    Not like I proposed scaling of all barrier skills.

    But I guess my change would have been bad, scourges would have been playing cele again

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    The change to barrier scaling looks good to me. Players using Scourge should have to choose between barrier, condi, or sustain. The adjustments will encourage splitting Scourge functions so, while there will still appear to be a lot of Scourges, some will lean more toward barrier slaves, which should reduce the offensive pressure a little.

    Corrupting boons has to stay, I think, but reducing dps from it on a heal Scourge seems proper.

    Contrary to what you think, modifying the barrier scaling objectively won't lead to a choice between sustain and damage. It will be very simple, if the survivability of the zerg goes down due to less barrier the zerg will just stack more "dps" scourge and reduce the number of other professions "dps". The players will always seek the most efficient path, the scourge shades skills just do to many thing at the same time making "specialists" unneeded.

    In a way it's super ironic because the necromancer's greatest weakness in PvE is it's inability to specialize while the reason scourge dominate WvW is because it wrap every role possible in a single build making specialists less effective.

    ANet won't ever balance this game if they keep around a specialization that suffocate other professions, taking over a whole game mode. I've said it countless time, I'm saying it since scourge's release and I'm saying it each time they introduce layers after layers of meaningless nerfs on scourge: "Sand shade skill issue are the procs not the skills (except desert shroud)!" It's tiring to see those nerfs that only lead to more toxic developpement when the reason of all the issues is blatantly ignored.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Some hope at last for Death Magic!
    WvW changes look fine.

    Yes. Let's see what they come up with.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

    • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
    • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
    • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

    And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

    The change to barrier scaling looks good to me. Players using Scourge should have to choose between barrier, condi, or sustain. The adjustments will encourage splitting Scourge functions so, while there will still appear to be a lot of Scourges, some will lean more toward barrier slaves, which should reduce the offensive pressure a little.

    Corrupting boons has to stay, I think, but reducing dps from it on a heal Scourge seems proper.

    Sadly that's not what they are doing. They only increase barrier skaling on f5.

    Not like I proposed scaling of all barrier skills.

    But I guess my change would have been bad, scourges would have been playing cele again

    Cele Scourge could still become a thing again with the nerf to Antitoxin runes

  • Although people won’t like the nerf to antitoxin, it is very nice that they are changing it so that it doesn’t kitten builds that use it in a solo manner. I use anti toxin runes on my roaming reaper build to deal with condition pressure so that’s nice of them to consider us like that

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Some hope at last for Death Magic!
    WvW changes look fine.

    Yes. Let's see what they come up with.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    When devs crash themselves 2 times in row into a wall...
    None of that will change the state of PvP/WvW, if anything there will still be more scourges into the zergs and the underlying issues that lead players to complains will still lead players to complain.

    Agreed. Corrupts and barriers are just too good and important to pass up.
    Builds may change but Scourges will remain a core backbone of any blob.
    I'm glad though that they heard us and are giving us increased healing stats contribution in return.
    Would make things more balanced I guess. More healing, less damage. More damage, less healing.
    I'm just not sure if those percentage changes are fair or no - not good with numbers.

    I don't think they should have touched untraited FoC though. Untraited single target corrupt doesn't actually have much impact in a blob fight.
    Traited FoC nerf is fair I guess.

    I'll be honest, I'm not "glad" that they "heard us" because a lot of "us" lead ANet devs away from the real issue. Sand savant is fine and the numbers on the effects are fine, what is not fine and need to be addressed is the proc of manifest sand shade that himself proc countless effect as well. That is the real issue, that is why people stacks scourges over and over again.

    You want to fix scourge in PvP/WvW?

    • Remove manifest sand shade proc on F2-F5
    • Change F5 into a defensive/support skill that deal no damage.
    • And consider changing boon corrupting effect on weapon into boon ripping effect.

    And here scourge become a good support option that you don't want to necessarily stack as much as you do right now since you'll end up losing in damage output.

    The change to barrier scaling looks good to me. Players using Scourge should have to choose between barrier, condi, or sustain. The adjustments will encourage splitting Scourge functions so, while there will still appear to be a lot of Scourges, some will lean more toward barrier slaves, which should reduce the offensive pressure a little.

    Corrupting boons has to stay, I think, but reducing dps from it on a heal Scourge seems proper.

    Sadly that's not what they are doing. They only increase barrier skaling on f5.

    Not like I proposed scaling of all barrier skills.

    But I guess my change would have been bad, scourges would have been playing cele again

    Cele Scourge could still become a thing again with the nerf to Antitoxin runes

    Yeah.
    With firebrand Condi cleanse nerf.
    And scrapper Condi cleanse nerf.

    And less power dmg on scourge.

    I really do think, that all will lead back to cele.

  • honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP

    I wish they'd just take half a year to finish all of the balance they envisions, rather dropping in small tweaks every few weeks.

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Or Scourges accept that having superior condition application AND superior barrier is a bit too much.

    Well, that thing with best condition application was long ago. Every mesmer could apply more conditions to you than a necro. Thiefs and rangers are also not that bad with applying conditions. But necros? sigh...

    Praise Joko!

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Galmac.4680 said:
    Well, that thing with best condition application was long ago.

    Whenever the enemy team in my matches has (a) scourge(s), the conditions application from them are definitely over-the-top.
    However, when they are on my team they can't seem to do any good.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Objectively, the necromancer isn't truly bad in PvE and any "buff" related to conditions to support PvE could very well indirectly break the state of the necromancer in PvP/WvW.

    One of the major issue of the necromancer is the gap of performance of some of it's tools between PvE and PvP/WvW. Simply put, boon corruption and condition manipulation have no way to shine in PvE due to how the gamemode is designed. Fixing the necromancer in PvE isn't a matter of buffing the necromancer but a matter of making the environment necromancer's friendly. Thus, fixing the necromancer in PvE is just a matter of:

    • Allowing boon corrupting/boon riping effects to interact with the defiance/breakbar system.
    • Introduce mechanisms that apply long lasting conditions over time to slowly increase the condi pressure instead of the burst of condi stacks that we often encounter.

    Let's just say that defiance is corrupted like a stack of vigor that would reapply itself instantly. Common boon corrupt would just apply a bleed stack making well of corruption a lot more interesting as a PvE dps tool all of a sudden. From the scourge point of view, all the punishment skills would suddenly have a way to apply their stacks of torment and cripple on boss giving them value when they barely have any value.

    Make bosses apply 10 second of poison or bleed to all of their foes on a 360 radius every 3 seconds and suddenly condition conversion and condition transfert become valuable in PvE. (Even death magic minions builds end up becoming interesting options)

    Really, necromancer's condi build are garbage in PvE just because PvE encounters and mechanisms don't take into account the tools on which the necromancer have to rely to reach it's peak. As soon as you put the same build into PvP/WvW, 'poof!' there is loads of boons to corrupt, conditions to convert and conditions to transfert.

    One of the main mistake that the developpers make is that they focus on balancing "numbers" to make things work in all gamemodes when those gamemodes don't offer the same environment to the different professions. In case of the necromancer which heavily rely on it's environment/ecosystem to reach it's peak efficiency, such balance philosophy is the same as running into a wall. And after 7 years of looking at them banging their head into the same wall over and over, I must say that it's becoming frustrating.

    The necromancer need it's foes to have boons and apply conditions making PvE and environment where the necromancer is starved while PvP and WvW have an environment which is overflowing with boons and conditions making him well fed. No number tweaks will ever fix this gap which directly affect the necromancer's efficiency due to it's own design.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Objectively, the necromancer isn't truly bad in PvE and any "buff" related to conditions to support PvE could very well indirectly break the state of the necromancer in PvP/WvW.

    One of the major issue of the necromancer is the gap of performance of some of it's tools between PvE and PvP/WvW. Simply put, boon corruption and condition manipulation have no way to shine in PvE due to how the gamemode is designed. Fixing the necromancer in PvE isn't a matter of buffing the necromancer but a matter of making the environment necromancer's friendly. Thus, fixing the necromancer in PvE is just a matter of:

    • Allowing boon corrupting/boon riping effects to interact with the defiance/breakbar system.
    • Introduce mechanisms that apply long lasting conditions over time to slowly increase the condi pressure instead of the burst of condi stacks that we often encounter.

    The idea of long lasting conditions will not work unless other classes have to have it to instead of burst, and ramp up is terrible for pve, even if they were to buff necro sustain(which they won't because people will cry) lets take WOW did you see whats happening? warlocks are suffering because of huge ramp up, and having such a massive ramp up means that enemies die too fast before they can benefit from long dots. It does work on bosses extremely well though. It would probably be even more kitten on lower levels of fractals unless the ramp up isn't too extreme

    For the other stuff, i agree that Anet could add some stuff to make fights more necro friendly. I think necros would care less if their ccs and abilities were more useful as offensive support, but lets make sure not to pidgeonhole necros into a offensive support in case they wish to be a condi spec.

    What about what someone said about the boon corrupted into something else other than the ones like instead of weakness chill or something? People always complain when they have weakness stack and poison stacks and torment. I think the problem isn't going to go away easily and i foresee a huge issue since part of necros defense is in their offensive boon corrupts as a way to apply cc and help their team. Nerfing boon corrupts will definitely be felt if they were to get rid of boon corrupt in spvp and WVW.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Objectively, the necromancer isn't truly bad in PvE and any "buff" related to conditions to support PvE could very well indirectly break the state of the necromancer in PvP/WvW.

    One of the major issue of the necromancer is the gap of performance of some of it's tools between PvE and PvP/WvW. Simply put, boon corruption and condition manipulation have no way to shine in PvE due to how the gamemode is designed. Fixing the necromancer in PvE isn't a matter of buffing the necromancer but a matter of making the environment necromancer's friendly. Thus, fixing the necromancer in PvE is just a matter of:

    • Allowing boon corrupting/boon riping effects to interact with the defiance/breakbar system.
    • Introduce mechanisms that apply long lasting conditions over time to slowly increase the condi pressure instead of the burst of condi stacks that we often encounter.

    The idea of long lasting conditions will not work unless other classes have to have it to instead of burst, and ramp up is terrible for pve, even if they were to buff necro sustain(which they won't because people will cry) lets take WOW did you see whats happening? warlocks are suffering because of huge ramp up, and having such a massive ramp up means that enemies die too fast before they can benefit from long dots. It does work on bosses extremely well though. It would probably be even more kitten on lower levels of fractals unless the ramp up isn't too extreme

    For the other stuff, i agree that Anet could add some stuff to make fights more necro friendly. I think necros would care less if their ccs and abilities were more useful as offensive support, but lets make sure not to pidgeonhole necros into a offensive support in case they wish to be a condi spec.

    I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about players, I'm talking about PvE encounter design and more specifically boss fights. The bosses seldom use condition damage and when they do, they usually overload all players for a short burst of condition damage.

    The necromancer is designed to make use of the conditions on him on a regular basis and PvE just don't leave the necromancer any room to do it. The idea is just to tweak a little PvE mechanisms. If you take VG as an example, there is a aoe that hit players every few second for a certain amount of power damage, let's halve those damages but make this aoe apply poison for 10 seconds as well. Such change would automatically make condi cleanse, condi manipulation, condi convertion, resistance and condi necro a thing in a fight where they don't really have a place right now. Such a simple change open room for both the necromancer and the revenant to express themself a bit more.

    What about what someone said about the boon corrupted into something else other than the ones like instead of weakness chill or something? People always complain when they have weakness stack and poison stacks and torment. I think the problem isn't going to go away easily and i foresee a huge issue since part of necros defense is in their offensive boon corrupts as a way to apply cc and help their team. Nerfing boon corrupts will definitely be felt if they were to get rid of boon corrupt in spvp and WVW.

    I think I'm the one that said it, it was in the perspective of WvW and focused mainly on weapon skills that corrupt. That said among those, scepter's would have corrupted boons into torment, dagger MH into bleed, axe into vulnerability, focus into chill and dagger OH into weakness (All of those suggestions are directly related to the weapons design). By limiting those changes to the weapon skills effect it both make things more reliable for the necromancer and reduce the flood of condition against players. It does have the disadvantage to make cover conditions a bit harder but that's all.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Well, Reaper has been getting a slight rework to focus more on Power rather than Condi gradually over each patch which is why shroud was changed to a more burst type over conditions... as for Scourge, it's pretty good to be honest, Can't say much for PvP as i don't PvP but in WvW its incredibly strong and in PvE Scourges are actually pretty good but i feel as if the community want to stick with the Chrono/Druid or Renegade/Firebrand comps. I mostly do Fractals for PvE and don't do raids so my opinion on PvE is based on Fractals not Raids :p

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Objectively, the necromancer isn't truly bad in PvE and any "buff" related to conditions to support PvE could very well indirectly break the state of the necromancer in PvP/WvW.

    One of the major issue of the necromancer is the gap of performance of some of it's tools between PvE and PvP/WvW. Simply put, boon corruption and condition manipulation have no way to shine in PvE due to how the gamemode is designed. Fixing the necromancer in PvE isn't a matter of buffing the necromancer but a matter of making the environment necromancer's friendly. Thus, fixing the necromancer in PvE is just a matter of:

    • Allowing boon corrupting/boon riping effects to interact with the defiance/breakbar system.
    • Introduce mechanisms that apply long lasting conditions over time to slowly increase the condi pressure instead of the burst of condi stacks that we often encounter.

    The idea of long lasting conditions will not work unless other classes have to have it to instead of burst, and ramp up is terrible for pve, even if they were to buff necro sustain(which they won't because people will cry) lets take WOW did you see whats happening? warlocks are suffering because of huge ramp up, and having such a massive ramp up means that enemies die too fast before they can benefit from long dots. It does work on bosses extremely well though. It would probably be even more kitten on lower levels of fractals unless the ramp up isn't too extreme

    For the other stuff, i agree that Anet could add some stuff to make fights more necro friendly. I think necros would care less if their ccs and abilities were more useful as offensive support, but lets make sure not to pidgeonhole necros into a offensive support in case they wish to be a condi spec.

    I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about players, I'm talking about PvE encounter design and more specifically boss fights. The bosses seldom use condition damage and when they do, they usually overload all players for a short burst of condition damage.

    The necromancer is designed to make use of the conditions on him on a regular basis and PvE just don't leave the necromancer any room to do it. The idea is just to tweak a little PvE mechanisms. If you take VG as an example, there is a aoe that hit players every few second for a certain amount of power damage, let's halve those damages but make this aoe apply poison for 10 seconds as well. Such change would automatically make condi cleanse, condi manipulation, condi convertion, resistance and condi necro a thing in a fight where they don't really have a place right now. Such a simple change open room for both the necromancer and the revenant to express themself a bit more.

    I was actually referring to pve with dots and some troubles warlocks had in their dungeons in World of Warcraft, and having runs where they had huge ramp ups. I was worried that too much ramp up in pve could lead to situations where they become useless due to being unable to deal enough damage to be useful and being situational to bosses. Im not sure about huge ramp up but how long will it take for instance to ramp up the condi dmg? will this be effective vs regular non boss enemies in fractals?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

    viability was already lacking sorely in PVE, guess they want it to start lacking in all gamemodes. SIGH

    Yes cuz scourge viability is lacking in pvp and wvw smh. Necro and all its specs are easy mode for pve etc. How is viability lacking? Yeah nec isn't top class pick for some modes but lacking viability it's not.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

    viability was already lacking sorely in PVE, guess they want it to start lacking in all gamemodes. SIGH

    Yes cuz scourge viability is lacking in pvp and wvw smh. Necro and all its specs are easy mode for pve etc. How is viability lacking? Yeah nec isn't top class pick for some modes but lacking viability it's not.

    scourge is a great WVW spec but if they keep nerfing it will fall out of meta and reapers can do good i hear in spvp but it definitely needs a bodyguard to keep them alive due to them being slow and very vulnerable to cc and outside of shroud they are easy prey to many classes. Also in pve. Reaper is the lowest pure dps class scourge isn't even on discretize scourge is already less dps than every class and its support is flimsy as is, so necro is behind. Scourge is at least i hear a decent healer. The main gist is that in spvp we are worried about being free kills and punching bags to every class. To me it seems fair to be concerned when something such as the two perks in question get nerfed because of scourge and they happened to be core abilities which i still think is a bad choice.

    https://discretize.eu/builds
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/condition/

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:
    honestly I wish they would take a LONG BREAK from balancing WvW/PvP to address PVE balance, because core necro and really any kind of condi build on necro is a joke, the only thing that is even close to viable is power reaper, power spec on a profession that is condition focused...… that makes sense. they should focus on PVE, it is where MOST people play and spend their time playing as well as it counts as about 90% of the content of the entire game, necro is overall kitten in PVE, so them nerfing them in the only actual gamemodes they find use is just kicking necro while it is down, unlike other professions which can be useful in all 3 gamemodes…...

    Objectively, the necromancer isn't truly bad in PvE and any "buff" related to conditions to support PvE could very well indirectly break the state of the necromancer in PvP/WvW.

    One of the major issue of the necromancer is the gap of performance of some of it's tools between PvE and PvP/WvW. Simply put, boon corruption and condition manipulation have no way to shine in PvE due to how the gamemode is designed. Fixing the necromancer in PvE isn't a matter of buffing the necromancer but a matter of making the environment necromancer's friendly. Thus, fixing the necromancer in PvE is just a matter of:

    • Allowing boon corrupting/boon riping effects to interact with the defiance/breakbar system.
    • Introduce mechanisms that apply long lasting conditions over time to slowly increase the condi pressure instead of the burst of condi stacks that we often encounter.

    Let's just say that defiance is corrupted like a stack of vigor that would reapply itself instantly. Common boon corrupt would just apply a bleed stack making well of corruption a lot more interesting as a PvE dps tool all of a sudden. From the scourge point of view, all the punishment skills would suddenly have a way to apply their stacks of torment and cripple on boss giving them value when they barely have any value.

    Make bosses apply 10 second of poison or bleed to all of their foes on a 360 radius every 3 seconds and suddenly condition conversion and condition transfert become valuable in PvE. (Even death magic minions builds end up becoming interesting options)

    Really, necromancer's condi build are garbage in PvE just because PvE encounters and mechanisms don't take into account the tools on which the necromancer have to rely to reach it's peak. As soon as you put the same build into PvP/WvW, 'poof!' there is loads of boons to corrupt, conditions to convert and conditions to transfert.

    One of the main mistake that the developpers make is that they focus on balancing "numbers" to make things work in all gamemodes when those gamemodes don't offer the same environment to the different professions. In case of the necromancer which heavily rely on it's environment/ecosystem to reach it's peak efficiency, such balance philosophy is the same as running into a wall. And after 7 years of looking at them banging their head into the same wall over and over, I must say that it's becoming frustrating.

    The necromancer need it's foes to have boons and apply conditions making PvE and environment where the necromancer is starved while PvP and WvW have an environment which is overflowing with boons and conditions making him well fed. No number tweaks will ever fix this gap which directly affect the necromancer's efficiency due to it's own design.

    but don't forget other classes can spec for different gamemodes just fine without the limitations that necro has, in a "what yo uwould do to necro thread" I suggested they overall remove a good chunk of boon corrupt from the necros kit, have a few skills focus SOLY on boon corruption and buff those skills in boon corruption but just overall lower the overall boon corruption of necros kit and start to give it a more flexible kit and skills instead of most of its kit revolving around boon corruption and finding its only viability in that area. because boon corruption is not even that good because
    1 it is random what boon will be corrupted
    2 if you do corrupt a boon it might be a useless condi you apply like blind or something, plus if they where gonna make PVE have the enemies have more boons and the boon application being CONSTANT, (which it would need to be because 3 boons from the start of the fight and no more throughout is still the same problem) they would need to buff the conversion durations/stacks, because at this time it is balanced for WvW/PvP not really for PvE since PvE does not have much boon corrupt in it

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Im going to agree with xxxnecro and say these nerfs are unwarranted and kill viability of necro, especially since the issue is boons.

    viability was already lacking sorely in PVE, guess they want it to start lacking in all gamemodes. SIGH

    Yes cuz scourge viability is lacking in pvp and wvw smh. Necro and all its specs are easy mode for pve etc. How is viability lacking? Yeah nec isn't top class pick for some modes but lacking viability it's not.

    with the direction of their balance for necro, WvW/PvP is where necro finds viable use, nerfing them a lot in those gamemodes will make necro not viable in 3 gamemodes, it is already not really viable in gamemode that takes up most of the game and that is the PvE gamemode, and yes you can technically just run around the open world usually as a minionmancer and be kinda AFK, but for high tier fractals, raids, etc. wont cut it. the super casual PVE ANY CLASS CAN FACEROLL IT, when it comes down the difficult and high rewarding content, it shows how weak necro is compared to ALL OTHER PROFESSIONS

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I was actually referring to pve with dots and some troubles warlocks had in their dungeons in World of Warcraft, and having runs where they had huge ramp ups. I was worried that too much ramp up in pve could lead to situations where they become useless due to being unable to deal enough damage to be useful and being situational to bosses. Im not sure about huge ramp up but how long will it take for instance to ramp up the condi dmg? will this be effective vs regular non boss enemies in fractals?

    Technically what I suggest would allow boss to stack up to 3-4 stack of poison on all raid members which add some level of difficulty to the encounter. The same way, a necromancer can draw condition from up to 5 allies by entering shroud every 10 seconds so hypothetically it would allow the necromancer to send back close to 15 stacks of poison every 10 seconds. For scourge, the cool down would be sligthly longer but that's not really an issue. Those 15 stacks of poisons mean between 2k and 3k dps increase which put necromancer condi builds into a sweet spot where they are neither top dps nor outdps by all other professions (with close to no reason to stack more than 2 necromancer in a 10 man raid). You could also reach pretty similar results with necromantic corruption, however you'll lack the support aspect.

    It wouldn't be as effective vs regular non boss mobs unless they also pulse poison. The idea is to make the environment of boss fights necromancer's friendly so that they become competitive, against regular mobs the necromancer already possess a wealth of advantage in the form of large aoe skills, they don't really need anything else to prove their worse in this kind of fights.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    If you nerf base values of barriers, make them scale much harder with healing power.

    Seems the direction they're heading, forcing necros to sacrifice some Pwr/Pre/Fer in order to buff barrier..

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I was actually referring to pve with dots and some troubles warlocks had in their dungeons in World of Warcraft, and having runs where they had huge ramp ups. I was worried that too much ramp up in pve could lead to situations where they become useless due to being unable to deal enough damage to be useful and being situational to bosses. Im not sure about huge ramp up but how long will it take for instance to ramp up the condi dmg? will this be effective vs regular non boss enemies in fractals?

    Technically what I suggest would allow boss to stack up to 3-4 stack of poison on all raid members which add some level of difficulty to the encounter. The same way, a necromancer can draw condition from up to 5 allies by entering shroud every 10 seconds so hypothetically it would allow the necromancer to send back close to 15 stacks of poison every 10 seconds. For scourge, the cool down would be sligthly longer but that's not really an issue. Those 15 stacks of poisons mean between 2k and 3k dps increase which put necromancer condi builds into a sweet spot where they are neither top dps nor outdps by all other professions (with close to no reason to stack more than 2 necromancer in a 10 man raid). You could also reach pretty similar results with necromantic corruption, however you'll lack the support aspect.

    It wouldn't be as effective vs regular non boss mobs unless they also pulse poison. The idea is to make the environment of boss fights necromancer's friendly so that they become competitive, against regular mobs the necromancer already possess a wealth of advantage in the form of large aoe skills, they don't really need anything else to prove their worse in this kind of fights.

    I generally agree with your suggestions, Dadnir. If boon-oriented professions are forced to take more condition clears, their dps should, in general, drop and Necro would find some demand for condi-transfer or condition-flipping. However, Necro is not that good at doing these things for a small group, much less a large group. Arenanet should increase Necromancer's capability in that area. Plague Signet, Well of Power, and Shroud cannot handle too many conditions in a group and the best transfer, Putrid Mark, was nerfed out of that function not long after launch. Restoring some ally transfer on Putrid Mark in PvE only might be possible by setting the number of transfers from allies in competitive modes to zero. (Hope they try to fix Plague Signet, again; It use to be suicide in PvE before they nerfed it completely out of any sort of support role. I wish it was, "Passive: Consumes 1 condition every 3 seconds for 1% LF. Active: Transfer up to 5 conditions from the caster in all game modes and 1 condition from up to 10 allies to the target in PvE only.)

    About the coming changes to barrier scaling, I wrongly assumed all barriers would scale more with healing and wish I was not wrong. I would rather have barrier amount scale more strongly with Healing and Blood Magic, its duration affected by Concentration and Death Magic, and the rest of Necromancer's condition dps scale more with Condition Damage and Expertise. That way, support builds offer good support and low condi-dps and condition damage builds can be buffed to be more competitive. Necromancer is in an odd place because of lack of trade-offs and rewards related to attribute selection. Arenanet could increase the condition dps scaling for Necro to force players to weigh trade-offs. Curses already has modifiers rewarding Condition Damage and Expertise so Arenanet may only need to review the multipliers so they result in lower dps with support stat's and higher dps with offensive stat's. (They could probably do the same with Blood Magic and reevaluate support vs dps trades in other professions, too.)

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