In case anybody missed this discussion about upcoming balance work form the dev's — Guild Wars 2 Forums

In case anybody missed this discussion about upcoming balance work form the dev's

Stephen Lo Presti posted this link from Irenio CalmonHuang on possible upcoming balance work that is more WvW centric
for anybody that may have not seen and wants to chime in.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85188/potential-future-balance-changes

Life before Death
Strength before Weakness
Journey before Destination
stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

Comments

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭

    no aegis from tomes? lol thats big nerf right there. Every patch they nerf and no buff. i am glad i went back to wow :)

  • This is a rather huge nerf, and not a good one either. This will kill FB, but I guess that’s their goal here. As a non meta build user, this will destroy me in WvW.

  • Magnuzone.8395Magnuzone.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    They don't play WvW themselves so they don't know what to do.

    They should have called in a focus group years ago to show them what the WvW community really wanted or needed. But they never did, They asked pve players instead. And all we got was the failed desert map. Never ask roamers what zergers want....

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's weird that after 7 years, Anet still hasn't figured out that no changes they can make to classes will fix what is wrong with WvW; someone is always the best, someone is always the worst .. everyone else is somewhere in between. If they are trying to make classes more balanced to each other to appeal to players that lobby them, it will be disastrous and a failure. It's a fools errand.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • so why not delete the tome lol. a defensive tome that gives you 0 defence
    also necro changes are horrible

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    This is a rather huge nerf, and not a good one either. This will kill FB, but I guess that’s their goal here. As a non meta build user, this will destroy me in WvW.

    Sorry but I have to disagree heavily here.
    Even after these nerfs, guard will still be mandatory in every single group in wvw.

    You know why scourge is strong? Because of the boonspam of guards.
    Does the boonhate get gutted? Yes. So boonspam needs to get nerfed as well.

    Why does firebrand get another nerf? Because it's still way too overpowered. Guard is in general

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    Personally this is what I would like to see:

    A. Leave the dedicated healing role to Scrapper.
    B. Focus even more on Boon and Condition management on Guardian.
    C. Free WvW guardian from Mace and Shield Jail by disincentivization. Pure of Heart should be rid off (since both Mace and Shield provides Aegis) and stop competing with Honorable Staff, which, aside from its Boon support capability, is also heavily focused on healing for its cooldown reduction of healing weapon skills.
    D. Create better weapon diversity by introducing new attribute combination (e.g. Condition with Concentration) and redesign of weapon skills (e.g. Hammer).

    Also, this was my take I wrote down on the original thread.

    Engineer
    * Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW.
    Guardian
    * Tome of Resolve, Chapter 2 - Radiant Recovery: The existing split from PvP of cleansing 2 conditions is brought to WvW as well. This ability would continue to cleanse 3 conditions in PvE.

    As far as I know, in terms of Condition management, only three classes would be taken into consideration: Firebrand, Scrapper and Scourge. To reduce the effectiveness of dedicated condition management roles will only make Scourge relatively more dominant in both ways, not only a source of Condition-to-Boon conversion but also vice versa.

    Guardian
    * Sanctuary: Increase number of enemies that can be knocked back by this skill from 10 to 20 before it expires.

    Certainly a buff while not enough to make it desirable enough for a utility slot. It's a light field, so maybe not a bad idea to make it pulse Blinding as well.

    • Tome of Courage, Chapter 2 - Daring Challenge: This skill grants retaliation for 3 seconds instead of aegis.
    • Tome of Courage, Chapter 5 - Unbroken Lines: This skill no longer grants aegis or retaliation.

    While ostensibly being a nerf to overall healing capability of Firebrand, which is not terrible to differentiate between itself and Scrapper, one might worry that, either A. the class would be even deeper locked in Mace and Shield for source of Aegis, or B. the nerf is actually directed to Pure of Heart, with already few means overall to apply Aegis. (I never liked that trait though, considering that it directly competes with Honorable Staff, which is also much healing-centric, making the choice entirely optimizational. In another post, I have written my take on optimizational decision making is not actually meaningful decision making, but that's another thing.)

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    It's weird that after 7 years, Anet still hasn't figured out that no changes they can make to classes will fix what is wrong with WvW; someone is always the best, someone is always the worst .. everyone else is somewhere in between. If they are trying to make classes more balanced to each other to appeal to players that lobby them, it will be disastrous and a failure. It's a fools errand.

    And some are always going to be more suited for large-scale combat, while others are going to be more suited for small-scale.

    "Balance" in WvW is always about who has the better numbers anyway, both in terms of player numbers and in those players having access to ascended gear with the right stats.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    This is a rather huge nerf, and not a good one either. This will kill FB, but I guess that’s their goal here. As a non meta build user, this will destroy me in WvW.

    Sorry but I have to disagree heavily here.
    Even after these nerfs, guard will still be mandatory in every single group in wvw.

    You know why scourge is strong? Because of the boonspam of guards.
    Does the boonhate get gutted? Yes. So boonspam needs to get nerfed as well.

    Why does firebrand get another nerf? Because it's still way too overpowered. Guard is in general

    Honestly, I’d rather them take the other boons off and leave aegis in place.

  • aegis isn't the problem. sigh...

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Sorry but I have to disagree heavily here.
    Even after these nerfs, guard will still be mandatory in every single group in wvw.

    You know why scourge is strong? Because of the boonspam of guards.
    Does the boonhate get gutted? Yes. So boonspam needs to get nerfed as well.

    Why does firebrand get another nerf? Because it's still way too overpowered. Guard is in general

    Interesting view there on the Scourge there but most often I think people view it the other way around in that the reason you have to have Guardians/FB is because of the amount of Conditions put out by the Scourge and even then it's hard to keep up let alone get head of the amount of Conditions that they can be constantly be throwing out with a large portion of their attacks placing 2 to even 3 conditions at a time depending on how they have been traited and I also think your ignoring the strength that they have with regard to Boon corruption, Condition transfers along with the ability to consume conditions for healing. While I recognize that that Necro's don't have access to blocks or evades they do have Shroud(Necro, Reaper) and Barrier(Scourge) along with a base health pool equal to a Warrior where as a Guardian is equal to a Elementalist .
    While I do agree that you will constantly see various Guardians (usually FB's) in a Zerg I don't see our greatest advantage to the Zerg being condition clearing, healing or boonspamming (alot of other classes are MUCH better than Guardian/FB) I see it as being the Guardian being a constant source of group Stability now if that option were spread around some what to other classes and build I'm certain that you would see variation in the Zerg make up

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2, 2019

    I posted there but to summarize:

    Sanctuary will remain useless.
    Support FB will not be impacted much. It is not a nerf that will reduce its dominance by any means in PvP.
    Dps FB will be rendered unviable. ToC was the only reliable focus fire tool that sage FB has. These changes will kill that build.

    So... guardian will be locked into support role in PvP. If any dps guardian build is remotely viable Anet is quick to nerf the kitten out of it.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    Sorry but I have to disagree heavily here.
    Even after these nerfs, guard will still be mandatory in every single group in wvw.

    You know why scourge is strong? Because of the boonspam of guards.
    Does the boonhate get gutted? Yes. So boonspam needs to get nerfed as well.

    Why does firebrand get another nerf? Because it's still way too overpowered. Guard is in general

    Interesting view there on the Scourge there but most often I think people view it the other way around in that the reason you have to have Guardians/FB is because of the amount of Conditions put out by the Scourge and even then it's hard to keep up let alone get head of the amount of Conditions that they can be constantly be throwing out with a large portion of their attacks placing 2 to even 3 conditions at a time depending on how they have been traited and I also think your ignoring the strength that they have with regard to Boon corruption, Condition transfers along with the ability to consume conditions for healing. While I recognize that that Necro's don't have access to blocks or evades they do have Shroud(Necro, Reaper) and Barrier(Scourge) along with a base health pool equal to a Warrior where as a Guardian is equal to a Elementalist .
    While I do agree that you will constantly see various Guardians (usually FB's) in a Zerg I don't see our greatest advantage to the Zerg being condition clearing, healing or boonspamming (alot of other classes are MUCH better than Guardian/FB) I see it as being the Guardian being a constant source of group Stability now if that option were spread around some what to other classes and build I'm certain that you would see variation in the Zerg make up

    That last paragraph is pretty much on point. As long as guard is the only good source of stability. The guard will always be mandatory.
    The question you have to ask:
    Is a certain class good standalone?
    So can guard be played without necro?

    Let's assume necro falls out of meta or isn't in the game. Would there still be guards? Yes other classes want stab as well.
    Would it be the same with necro? Maybe. But you'd have to have a full necro squad in order to maintain good stab uptime like guard does. And without stab, you can have the most dmg in the world, you will just get cc'd to death

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    I posted there but to summarize:

    Sanctuary will remain useless.
    Support FB will not be impacted much. It is not a nerf that will reduce its dominance by any means in PvP.
    Dps FB will be rendered unviable. ToC was the only reliable focus fire tool that sage FB has. These changes will kill that build.

    So... guardian will be locked into support role in PvP. If any dps guardian build is remotely viable Anet is quick to nerf the kitten out of it.

    Well for pve the exact opposite is the case. No not even that
    You can play
    1. power quickness FB
    2. Condi quickness FB
    3. Healer (quickness) FB
    4. Condi FB
    5. Power DH
    You could even tank as FB.

    That's 5 very good builds (meta builds for endgame pve)

    Guard (and ele in my opinion) are the only classes, very good (meta) in all three gamemodes. So you definitely got no point to complain about.

    But I feel with you. I don't like it, when anet kills any build diversity for certain gamemodes, especially PvP modes

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I posted there but to summarize:

    Sanctuary will remain useless.
    Support FB will not be impacted much. It is not a nerf that will reduce its dominance by any means in PvP.
    Dps FB will be rendered unviable. ToC was the only reliable focus fire tool that sage FB has. These changes will kill that build.

    So... guardian will be locked into support role in PvP. If any dps guardian build is remotely viable Anet is quick to nerf the kitten out of it.

    Well for pve the exact opposite is the case. No not even that
    You can play
    1. power quickness FB
    2. Condi quickness FB
    3. Healer (quickness) FB
    4. Condi FB
    5. Power DH
    You could even tank as FB.

    That's 5 very good builds (meta builds for endgame pve)

    Guard (and ele in my opinion) are the only classes, very good (meta) in all three gamemodes. So you definitely got no point to complain about.

    But I feel with you. I don't like it, when anet kills any build diversity for certain gamemodes, especially PvP modes

    I am not sure what this has to do with either Anet suggested changes or this thread as a whole. Clearly has nothing to do with PvE. And even if guardian has it good in PvE that has nothing to do with PvP what so ever.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I posted there but to summarize:

    Sanctuary will remain useless.
    Support FB will not be impacted much. It is not a nerf that will reduce its dominance by any means in PvP.
    Dps FB will be rendered unviable. ToC was the only reliable focus fire tool that sage FB has. These changes will kill that build.

    So... guardian will be locked into support role in PvP. If any dps guardian build is remotely viable Anet is quick to nerf the kitten out of it.

    Well for pve the exact opposite is the case. No not even that
    You can play
    1. power quickness FB
    2. Condi quickness FB
    3. Healer (quickness) FB
    4. Condi FB
    5. Power DH
    You could even tank as FB.

    That's 5 very good builds (meta builds for endgame pve)

    Guard (and ele in my opinion) are the only classes, very good (meta) in all three gamemodes. So you definitely got no point to complain about.

    But I feel with you. I don't like it, when anet kills any build diversity for certain gamemodes, especially PvP modes

    I am not sure what this has to do with either Anet suggested changes or this thread as a whole. Clearly has nothing to do with PvE. And even if guardian has it good in PvE that has nothing to do with PvP what so ever.

    Was it that incomprehensible?

    At least you can play your favourite class in every gamemode.
    Other classes can't or at least can't without having deficits.
    If you don't want to play that certain build, that is good in a certain mode, then that's your problem. But others don't even get that far.

    For example ranger: wants to play zerg in wvw. He won't get any group
    And has to switch class.

    While the guard has a luxury problem. You could play guard in wvw/PvP, but you don't want to, because it's played as healer/support there.

    So I'm telling you, what people tell me, when I want to play necro in endgame pve content: just switch class.
    But it's two different reasons:
    You don't want to play the a certain build, other classes don't even have a (meta) very good build

  • Kaladel.1670Kaladel.1670 Member ✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    So I'm telling you, what people tell me, when I want to play necro in endgame pve content: just switch class.

    This is a problem with the necro, not the guard. (An old and saddening problem, but here is not the place to elaborate on the state of the necromancer)

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    Well for pve the exact opposite is the case. No not even that
    You can play
    1. power quickness FB
    2. Condi quickness FB
    3. Healer (quickness) FB
    4. Condi FB
    5. Power DH
    You could even tank as FB.

    That's 5 very good builds (meta builds for endgame pve)

    Guard (and ele in my opinion) are the only classes, very good (meta) in all three gamemodes. So you definitely got no point to complain about.

    But I feel with you. I don't like it, when anet kills any build diversity for certain gamemodes, especially PvP modes

    Mesmer is as strong (if not better) as Eles in every game mode (albeit in WvW has a larger role as top roamer than as member of huge teams). But yes, Guardian is one of the two classes I always recomend to new players due how much build variety has and how much relevant is at every game mode.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I posted there but to summarize:

    Sanctuary will remain useless.
    Support FB will not be impacted much. It is not a nerf that will reduce its dominance by any means in PvP.
    Dps FB will be rendered unviable. ToC was the only reliable focus fire tool that sage FB has. These changes will kill that build.

    So... guardian will be locked into support role in PvP. If any dps guardian build is remotely viable Anet is quick to nerf the kitten out of it.

    Well for pve the exact opposite is the case. No not even that
    You can play
    1. power quickness FB
    2. Condi quickness FB
    3. Healer (quickness) FB
    4. Condi FB
    5. Power DH
    You could even tank as FB.

    That's 5 very good builds (meta builds for endgame pve)

    Guard (and ele in my opinion) are the only classes, very good (meta) in all three gamemodes. So you definitely got no point to complain about.

    But I feel with you. I don't like it, when anet kills any build diversity for certain gamemodes, especially PvP modes

    I am not sure what this has to do with either Anet suggested changes or this thread as a whole. Clearly has nothing to do with PvE. And even if guardian has it good in PvE that has nothing to do with PvP what so ever.

    Was it that incomprehensible?

    At least you can play your favourite class in every gamemode.
    Other classes can't or at least can't without having deficits.
    If you don't want to play that certain build, that is good in a certain mode, then that's your problem. But others don't even get that far.

    For example ranger: wants to play zerg in wvw. He won't get any group
    And has to switch class.

    While the guard has a luxury problem. You could play guard in wvw/PvP, but you don't want to, because it's played as healer/support there.

    So I'm telling you, what people tell me, when I want to play necro in endgame pve content: just switch class.
    But it's two different reasons:
    You don't want to play the a certain build, other classes don't even have a (meta) very good build

    So in other words: My class isn't as well rounded as yours and I have to swap, so you should have to as well and stop complaining.

    Go whine about that on the necro forum, we’re on the guardian page.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    This is a rather huge nerf, and not a good one either. This will kill FB, but I guess that’s their goal here. As a non meta build user, this will destroy me in WvW.

    Sorry but I have to disagree heavily here.
    Even after these nerfs, guard will still be mandatory in every single group in wvw.

    You know why scourge is strong? Because of the boonspam of guards.
    Does the boonhate get gutted? Yes. So boonspam needs to get nerfed as well.

    Why does firebrand get another nerf? Because it's still way too overpowered. Guard is in general

    FB is really powerful but I wouldn't call guard in general overpowered.
    Core Guard has good burst to be honest but lacks real good support options/it's support features are really bad and only FB makes support guard useful.
    DH lacks good roaming capabilities due to a lack of mobility and LB needs some improvements.

    I like the changes overall. I hope more buffs in other aspects come to give more viable options.

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