How to fix the WvW meta with two changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to fix the WvW meta with two changes

RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

Why this is broken
Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

Video of how absurd sand savant is

How to fix it
-Keep the radius increase and the target cap
-Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
-200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
-Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

What the results would be
-Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
-Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
-Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship


Superior rune of Antitoxin, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Antitoxin

Why this is broken
This doubles the cleansing output of any class using it, both personal and aoe cleanses. There's no ICD. This rune alone almost completely removes condition damage classes from the meta. For daredevil and mirage it gives 2 cleanses on every dodge instead of one, very strong in a 1vX setting. In large scale wvw, it makes tempests and scrappers nullify the condition output of an entire map queue. If the balance team thinks cleansing is too strong on scrapper (which it is) the issue is with this rune, not with purge gyro.

Video of how absurd Antitoxin runes are

How to fix it
-5s or 10s ICD
-Change the bonus to something else, like cleanse a condition when using a leap finisher

What the results would be
-Solo players would be forced to add condition cleansing into their builds, reducing the number of other offensive or defensive CDs available to them
-We might see squads run condition builds again, increasing build variety
-Bunker comps would have to adjust and bring condition cleanses on other classes. Again, reducing the number of offensive or defensive CDs available to them


Thank you for finally addressing Coalescence of Ruin by both shaving the top end damage and making it visible, that's going to go a long way towards adjusting the stale meta. These are the other two changes that are needed!

<1

Comments

  • Sand Savant should have been a tradeoff. Instead increasing the targets and reducing the recharge, it should increase the targets, but with some negative change, like a longer activation time, longer recharge, etc

    Way more Major traits need to be tradeoffs. Not in minor traits like Impact Savant, but the Major ones, so people can pick their poison. I'd start with the most popular grandmaster major trait in each specialization, and little by little make the strongest 2 major traits of each tier in each specialization have a form of tradeoff.
    When traits only add positive effects, then people will compare the positives and pick what's the best, and that's how you get a meta.
    If you add also negatives, then they'll have to also weigh in the negatives and how they interact with other parts of the build.

    And yeah, antitoxin needs a 10CD, just like every other passive condition removals with no CD or with a DC under 10s.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    yep, these changes are right on.
    also herald boon spam is atrocious and needs addressing.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yep, these changes are right on.
    also herald boon spam is atrocious and needs addressing.

    Agreed, draconic echo needs to lose the 10 target facets. It should be 5 target and the trait gives +1s base duration per tick

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Sand Savant should have been a tradeoff. Instead increasing the targets and reducing the recharge, it should increase the targets, but with some negative change, like a longer activation time, longer recharge, etc

    Way more Major traits need to be tradeoffs. Not in minor traits like Impact Savant, but the Major ones, so people can pick their poison. I'd start with the most popular grandmaster major trait in each specialization, and little by little make the strongest 2 major traits of each tier in each specialization have a form of tradeoff.
    When traits only add positive effects, then people will compare the positives and pick what's the best, and that's how you get a meta.
    If you add also negatives, then they'll have to also weigh in the negatives and how they interact with other parts of the build.

    And yeah, antitoxin needs a 10CD, just like every other passive condition removals with no CD or with a DC under 10s.

    dont know if i have overseen something in your post so i maybe missunderstood you, but sand savant IS INCREASING sand shade recharge time by 100% in wvw.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    people forget that being hit by the One bomb kills. :3

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    The rune of antitoxin thing should be biggest priority. ESPECIALLY before they touch scrapper again. This rune makes scrapper do what it does so well. Please don't just destroy the class and leave the rune untouched.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf Necro Marks.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Someone say Guardian nerfs?......you gonna make our multiple thread "Shattered Ageis" friend cry even more.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    Just to clarify with Antitoxin Runes: it doesn't inherently double all cleanse output, but adds an additional cleanse per cleanse proc. So if you use "Shake it Off!", for example, you'd only be cleansing 7 conditions (6+1) as opposed to 12. It just has absurdly broken synergy with Scrapper more than anything and it does indeed double the cleanse output on them since the meta build's cleansing choices are all pulsing. It boggles my mind how this has remained in game when comparing it to other cleanse runes. Just for fun, let's compare:

    • Antitoxin: (6) -10% Incoming Condition Duration; upon removing one or more conditions, remove an additional condition. [No ICD]
    • Nature's Bounty: (6) -10% Incoming Condition Duration; cleanse a condition from nearby allies after using a healing skill [10s ICD]
    • Trooper: (6) +125 Toughness; remove a condition from each affected ally after using a shout skill. [No ICD, but only one additional cleanse per shout]
    • Water: (6) +10% Boon Duration; remove a condition from you and nearby allies after using a Healing skill. [20s ICD]
    • Lyssa: (6) +10% Condition Duration; convert up to 3 conditions into boons after using an elite skill. [45s ICD. This is self only too, by the way]
    • Leadership: (6) +10% Boon Duration; convert up to 3 conditions into boons for nearby allies after using an elite skill. [45s ICD]
    • Altruism: (6) +125 Healing Power; transfer 1 condition from 5 allies within a 600 radius to yourself after using an elite skill. [No ICD, but limited by elite skill usage, which mostly have very high cooldowns. Mortar kit swapping is the most abusable usage of this rune, but it also transfers the conditions onto the user, and limits some other actions due to having to swap kits. I guess a Ventari Rev could also spam its elite, lol.]

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • But...but, what about ele's meteor shower? They just have to stand in one spot for like 3secs and then, because i'm too stupid to move, I take like 16k damage. It's unfair! Nerf ele's! Buff scourges!

  • Scrappers only reason for being in the meta is because they can convert conditions into boons....that’s it. Anti toxin makes that synergy better, but they will still see a place in Zerg as it was even before rune changes.

    On my tempest healer, I am not specced for condition cleanse at all. And what I notice is that I cleanse just as many conditions as my scrappers...I usually end up 3rd in the cleanse meter...mind you I’m not specced for condition cleanse at all, and rarely do I ever even think about cleansing while on staff tempest ( rune of the monk over antitoxin)

    The bigger thing I noticed was how many cleanses show up from scourges...they are usually right behind me on the cleanse meter... all of them...and it’s due to the trait that grants cleansing and might on barrier to allies. For the most part, the scourges are doing the MAJORITY of the cleansing.

    what it boils down to is that you think the problem is the rune...but in reality it’s just class mechanics...it always has and always will be these mechanics that exploit runes that in my opinion are perfectly balanced 99% of the time. And thus, The changes uve proposed won’t change anything about wvw other than make it more stale.

    As for scourges...

    Most of the time you don’t even need to do that much DPS in order to win a push in a ZvZ. 3-5k DPS per damage dealer, in a 3 man support setup is enough to wipe people with a 20 man....that’s a total 24k-40k DPS in total going out from your zerg. Even that’s considered a pretty high number.

    Again the reason is class mechanics...not individual skills or players doing “big deeps.” Scourges do one important job and that is to rip boons while doing their damage. Ripping the boons makes it easier for the entire Zerg to do their maximum potential in damage on a per skill basis. So instead of your AOE ticking for 600 per tick, it’s ticking 3000 per tick...instead of opposing healers counter healing with Aegis and stability, your landing stuns and cc’s. This is all because scourges are ripping and converting the boons during the push.

    My guild runs variably between 12-22 people...either running heavy 3 man support structure or going very DPS heavy with only 3 or 4 healers. In both scenarios we win pushes against zergs of 30 or more. The only reason we can pull it off is because we are aware of the mechanics that are necessary to win a fight. I even run support tempest (because it’s by far the best healer in the game, and can easily keep a squad of 15 topped off during a push)

  • style.6173style.6173 Member ✭✭✭

    @OP: So the entire meta is better if we buff scourge and nerf the counterplay to it?

    Scourge is not currently an issue in the meta. It's in a good place.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @style.6173 said:
    @OP: So the entire meta is better if we buff scourge and nerf the counterplay to it?

    Scourge is not currently an issue in the meta. It's in a good place.

    Where are you seeing buff scourge? Are you aware of how scourge damage works?

    Each time you press a f skill it triggers the damage from f1. My proposed change is when you take the sand savant trait (which currently increases your everything by 60%) it modifies f1 so it no longer deals damage.

    So you have to choose between 10 target support or 6 target damage. No more 10 target aoes.

    Believe it or not, no other class has that kind of area denial. Remove 10 target sand savant and all of the other melee classes can push in, increasing diversity.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    If you think only changing 2 things will fix wvw you're sadly mistaken. Tons of nerfs to damage/healing/boon spam/condi spam/stealth are needed to get it respectable. The power creep in wvw is off the charts in a game mode that has large fights with a lot of people.

    They're already nerfing hammer Rev/firebrand and they're already giving methods to apply reveal reliably. Sand savant and antitoxin runes are the next biggest outliers.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    ITT people that don't know about antitoxin runes. It's ridiculous they still exist in their form.

    Oh btw 10 person Stand Your Ground has to be the silliest change of all time.

    And nerfing guardian alone doesn't do anything. I mean it's like nobody remembers when two guardians were needed per party. That just makes people stack even more of them. Even when stability barely worked in early HoT, people still used mostly guardians. People aren't going to stop using firebrand unless you create a viable alternative to it. You know, maybe unnerf chrono by a few degrees....

    If you ask me, projectile hate is the biggest problem here, since it eliminates a great deal of abilities in the game. It also doesn't help that necros are best countered by that sort of thing.....

  • In my opinion, the amount of conditions is the main problem.

    Even after all this time with healscrappers around and all zergs going power-damage, zergs don't have a choice regarding cleanse-supporters.
    There is just this huge amount of conditions floating around, partly from corruption, but mostly from free scourge-condis.
    Most dmg-condis (bleeding/pain/burn/conf) don't do much damage, but soft-CC (bind/slow/chill/crippled) and modifiers (poison/weakness/vuln) are hiding under all that.
    That's why you can be in a 5min fight constantly cleansing 5 conditions per second with an antitoxin scrapper, going 4-digit in the dps-meter cleanse-section.
    And also, why your damage as a burn-guardian depends on how many scourges you have in your zerg to hide your burns.

    If non-condition builds (primarily scourge) would have no/little condition output, most scrappers would go monk-rune.
    Then there would be a choice for guilds to base their zerg on condi (good against zergs with effective heal-scrappers) or power (good against zergs with antitoxin-scrappers who run a useless rune 50% of the time).

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    If you think only changing 2 things will fix wvw you're sadly mistaken. Tons of nerfs to damage/healing/boon spam/condi spam/stealth are needed to get it respectable. The power creep in wvw is off the charts in a game mode that has large fights with a lot of people.

    They're already nerfing hammer Rev/firebrand and they're already giving methods to apply reveal reliably. Sand savant and antitoxin runes are the next biggest outliers.

    Step in the right direction but still not enough IMO. Healing(brain dead easy spam) and stealth(stack 15 second every engage. Should be capped at 3 to 6 etchings tops.)

    Ferguson's Crossing Server Leader

    WVW LEADER

    VR

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • how to fix wvw in 1 easy step. revert all changes since Heart of Thorns

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    Removing 10 target shades could promote more melee but it could also result in stacking revs and back to pirate ship.

    The issue with scourge is there is no viable replacement for boon denial. As long as other classes, Guard/Herald/scrapper can pump out boons, scourge is irreplaceable. Scourge needs to be addressed but so does boon application, one without the other will either shift to more scourges per squad or back to a meta similar to the boon share meta.

    Tone down Scourge and Firebrand or give us viable alternatives.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately, no matter how game-breaking, ANet NEVER nerfs gear, even when it's problematic.

    Otherwise we'd have seen boon/condition duration and Dire nerfed/removed years ago where people were killing others while not using weapons due to the sheer sustain : damage ratios.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

  • Aenaos.8160Aenaos.8160 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's see.
    Without that trait a Scourge has to manage and cast 3 different fields.This adds time and complexity restrains on the class.
    The field around the Scourge it self is still too much,it should be at least that when there is an active Shade cast,the auto Shade around the player is deactivated.
    Now enter Sand Savant.
    Instant access to everything.All the buffs related to Shades.No build up time.No managing of fields.
    Well that's the very definition of "balance" in PvP related content isn't it?Taking away complexity and adding efficiency.
    Or maybe not?I'm a bit confused and it seems I'm not the only one.
    All is Vain.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Aenaos.8160 said:
    Let's see.
    Without that trait a Scourge has to manage and cast 3 different fields.This adds time and complexity restrains on the class.
    The field around the Scourge it self is still too much,it should be at least that when there is an active Shade cast,the auto Shade around the player is deactivated.
    Now enter Sand Savant.
    Instant access to everything.All the buffs related to Shades.No build up time.No managing of fields.
    Well that's the very definition of "balance" in PvP related content isn't it?Taking away complexity and adding efficiency.
    Or maybe not?I'm a bit confused and it seems I'm not the only one.
    All is Vain.

    Well, you could make F1 range only and 1 shade at a time but it would need to be 5 targets to be balanced and that implies to change the mechanic so F2 to F5 would be the ones to work both at range (when F1 on) and on yourself (when F1 off). Then you have to reduce CD and recharge time on all F skills. I was an advocate of that for a long time but i don't think Anet is willing to change mechanics... Losing range and melee capacity on f2-f5 is too much of a nerf though. At the moment you are forced into Sand Savant without considering the 2 other major traits just to gain access to larger radius and increase target. This needs to be incorporated to base F1 so Sand Savant is only a support trait.
    To me the most balanced F1 would be: 240 radius, 5 targets, range only, 1 shade at a time, 6 sec duration, 25 sec recharge time; and F2-F5 have their own radius/targets. Sand Savant would become what i said in a previous comment.
    Easiest way is what OP stated, 240 radius and 3*3

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

    With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

    SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

    With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

    I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...
    Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

    SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

    I have a good idea of how spb works and how to use it, it's ineffective with groups of 50+ because the scourge melee denial at those numbers becomes too much for them to be useful. You can't bubble when 20 scourges are corrupting, fixing sand savant removes that impediment and opens up other melee classes for large scale wvw.

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

    With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

    I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...
    Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

    It's not adding the mechanic without a tradeoff. if you take sand savant, your f1-4 no longer deal damage and would instead only heal. So it forces a choice- 10 target support or 6 target damage.

    It would force scourge in pvp to either go the damage route or the healing route as well- where currently a blood scourge has damage+sustain+res, this change would give them either damage+res or (better)sustain+res with a huge hit to damage.

    With this change we'd more likely see settlers scourge (condi+healing) with a focus on healing since the dhuumfire nerf gutted scourge condi damage. They would still have most of the corrupt ability that current scourge does which leaves corrupted boons, 2s torment from each f skill, and 7x5s torment from f5 as their damage output. The bleeding from scepter 2 and dagger 5 is pretty unimpactful, as is the burning on torch 4. There's no point in running minstrels or plaguedoctor as scourge doesn't have the boon output to justify it, the only group boons they can provide reasonably well are might (with blood is power/barrier) and protection (from traited wells, though that gives up healing from transfusion). Additionally, support hybrid scourges would have to choose between placing a shade on the enemy for corrupts/conditions or placing it on their own team for healing/barrier/cleansing.

    We would see less dps oriented scourges in wvw, more support scourges (likely with berserkers and reapers, support barrier+pbaoe heals favors both), less skill lag (less computations with the decreased targets), offensive firebrands, and more choices of party support (tempest+ventari rev) that complement support scourge.

    The antitoxin nerfs would really open up condi classes like frontline rev/renegade, condi/support scourge hybrids, burn firebrands, hybrid holosmith, condi tempest/weaver, and possibly condi thief.

    We could see melee comps with either power or condi dps classes with coordinated spb bubbles. Pirate ship with heralds/weavers would remain strong and favor highly coordinated bombs. In short, these two changes would cause diversity to explode. No more stale meta =D

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

    SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

    I have a good idea of how spb works and how to use it, it's ineffective with groups of 50+ because the scourge melee denial at those numbers becomes too much for them to be useful. You can't bubble when 20 scourges are corrupting, fixing sand savant removes that impediment and opens up other melee classes for large scale wvw.

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

    With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

    I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...
    Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

    It's not adding the mechanic without a tradeoff. if you take sand savant, your f1-4 no longer deal damage and would instead only heal. So it forces a choice- 10 target support or 6 target damage.

    It would force scourge in pvp to either go the damage route or the healing route as well- where currently a blood scourge has damage+sustain+res, this change would give them either damage+res or (better)sustain+res with a huge hit to damage.

    With this change we'd more likely see settlers scourge (condi+healing) with a focus on healing since the dhuumfire nerf gutted scourge condi damage. They would still have most of the corrupt ability that current scourge does which leaves corrupted boons, 2s torment from each f skill, and 7x5s torment from f5 as their damage output. The bleeding from scepter 2 and dagger 5 is pretty unimpactful, as is the burning on torch 4. There's no point in running minstrels or plaguedoctor as scourge doesn't have the boon output to justify it, the only group boons they can provide reasonably well are might (with blood is power/barrier) and protection (from traited wells, though that gives up healing from transfusion). Additionally, support hybrid scourges would have to choose between placing a shade on the enemy for corrupts/conditions or placing it on their own team for healing/barrier/cleansing.

    We would see less dps oriented scourges in wvw, more support scourges (likely with berserkers and reapers, support barrier+pbaoe heals favors both), less skill lag (less computations with the decreased targets), offensive firebrands, and more choices of party support (tempest+ventari rev) that complement support scourge.

    The antitoxin nerfs would really open up condi classes like frontline rev/renegade, condi/support scourge hybrids, burn firebrands, hybrid holosmith, condi tempest/weaver, and possibly condi thief.

    We could see melee comps with either power or condi dps classes with coordinated spb bubbles. Pirate ship with heralds/weavers would remain strong and favor highly coordinated bombs. In short, these two changes would cause diversity to explode. No more stale meta =D

    I wouldn't have balanced it that way but yeah that's probably the best proposal without touching the spec design.
    Yeah i expect a change of meta too but we never know with Anet. Sb WoD's radius will still be a problem though...

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    I don't see how your changes shift the numbers advantage balancing to coordinated teamplay advantage.
    I believe plenty quit simply because the balance is shifted from coordinate teamplay to simply numbers and individual skills. Such balance simply means just having higher numbers with some sense of rotations will exponentially increase the victory rate. In other words, the balance encourage numbers and more numbers.
    A real fix to the meta would be trying to emphases coordinate teamplay once again like in core.

    It solves carpet bombing and easy queue-wide cleansing. Both changes favor coordinated group play since people will have to play something other than faceroll scourge to be efficient as damage dealers while actually watching their party so they don't waste cleanses.

    removing 10 target shades opens up melee ball comps again since they lose a large portion of area denial. You can't melee ball if you're uncoordinated :>

    You can't melee ball either if they throw waves of sb at you.

    So spb get to join the meta? Along with berserker and reaper right? Sounds like diversity to me!

    SB is in the meta. I guess....you are on the blob side.

    I have a good idea of how spb works and how to use it, it's ineffective with groups of 50+ because the scourge melee denial at those numbers becomes too much for them to be useful. You can't bubble when 20 scourges are corrupting, fixing sand savant removes that impediment and opens up other melee classes for large scale wvw.

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Since the balance team doesn't seem to understand what's broken or how to fix it, here =D

    Sand savant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant

    Why this is broken
    Increases your target cap from 3/6 to 5/10. That's a 60% increase in scourge's damage, barrier, corruption, and cleansing. 60% increase for the entire profession mechanic. That's why it's broken. It pushes out every other melee class because no other class has comparable output. Neither of the other two grandmaster traits have or ever will be taken because it's no competition. It's maybe a 10% damage increase to run Demonic lore if you don't get cleansed. Feed from corruption is a nothing trait. It's been two years, sand savant has remained the only choice for scourge grandmaster regardless of stat spread, it's that strong.

    How to fix it
    -Keep the radius increase and the target cap
    -Sand savant now modifies manifest sand shade (which is the damaging part of each f skill activation) so that it heals instead of doing damage.
    -200 base, keep the .666 healing power coefficient
    -Increase manifest sand shade size to 240, keep the 3 target cap. 180 radius is far too clunky for a profession mechanic, if it stays that small it'll be almost impossible to land on moving targets.

    What the results would be
    -Scourge can now be a viable support elite spec in pve, pvp, and wvw. You know, like it was advertised to be
    -Carpet bombing goes away, reducing load on the servers. Two birds, meet one stone
    -Other melee classes become viable. Shakes up the meta after two years of pirate ship

    I agree with your statement but i would change it differently with a more simple approach.

    Manifest Sand Shade: I agree a base 240 radius is definitely a requisite.

    Sand Savant: I am not sure i like your idea of Sand Savant turning Manifest Sand Shade into a healing Aoe. There are already enough healers in WvW without adding 1 more. Sand Savant should be "Barriers applied around you (not your shade) affect 10 allies in a 300 radius".
    If you want a total defensive Sand shade, it should be Desert Empowerment's job instead.
    This way they can nerf base barriers on Sand Cascade, Sand Flare and Desert Shroud and increase their healing coeff. You wouldn't see power scourge offering this amount of protection to allies anymore and you wouldn't need more than 5 condi support scourges in a 50 men squad. Even more room for other specs.

    Tell me if i'm wrong

    On a side note, I would also nerf the power coeff on Desert Shroud.

    With a blood build and 2k healing power+modifiers you're looking at ~2.2k heal on each f skill, with barrier that puts scourge at a little more hps than most current healers. Better than firebrand, worse than scrapper and tempest, offering none of the boons that the other classes bring as the tradeoff

    I am not saying it wouldn't be balanced. I am just not so keen on adding another major mechanic to an already omnipresent spec. Not that it wouldn't be in line with barrier as both would require healing power but i like the idea of supporting your group differently than just healing so if F1 were to heal shouldn't it do less than FB? I don't know what's Anet's stance on blood scourge, will they nerf it because of pvp or will they rework it to increase group support...
    Wouldn't scourge end up being played as a minstrel support with "free" access to corrupt? That's another thing i am not a fan of: every support in minstrel and every dmg dealer on berserker/marauder gear.

    It's not adding the mechanic without a tradeoff. if you take sand savant, your f1-4 no longer deal damage and would instead only heal. So it forces a choice- 10 target support or 6 target damage.

    It would force scourge in pvp to either go the damage route or the healing route as well- where currently a blood scourge has damage+sustain+res, this change would give them either damage+res or (better)sustain+res with a huge hit to damage.

    With this change we'd more likely see settlers scourge (condi+healing) with a focus on healing since the dhuumfire nerf gutted scourge condi damage. They would still have most of the corrupt ability that current scourge does which leaves corrupted boons, 2s torment from each f skill, and 7x5s torment from f5 as their damage output. The bleeding from scepter 2 and dagger 5 is pretty unimpactful, as is the burning on torch 4. There's no point in running minstrels or plaguedoctor as scourge doesn't have the boon output to justify it, the only group boons they can provide reasonably well are might (with blood is power/barrier) and protection (from traited wells, though that gives up healing from transfusion). Additionally, support hybrid scourges would have to choose between placing a shade on the enemy for corrupts/conditions or placing it on their own team for healing/barrier/cleansing.

    We would see less dps oriented scourges in wvw, more support scourges (likely with berserkers and reapers, support barrier+pbaoe heals favors both), less skill lag (less computations with the decreased targets), offensive firebrands, and more choices of party support (tempest+ventari rev) that complement support scourge.

    The antitoxin nerfs would really open up condi classes like frontline rev/renegade, condi/support scourge hybrids, burn firebrands, hybrid holosmith, condi tempest/weaver, and possibly condi thief.

    We could see melee comps with either power or condi dps classes with coordinated spb bubbles. Pirate ship with heralds/weavers would remain strong and favor highly coordinated bombs. In short, these two changes would cause diversity to explode. No more stale meta =D

    I wouldn't have balanced it that way but yeah that's probably the best proposal without touching the spec design.
    Yeah i expect a change of meta too but we never know with Anet. Sb WoD's radius will still be a problem though...

    trying to shoot for the easiest changes with the biggest impact haha

    it would be pretty great to see comps like:

    -hybrid scourge, support scrapper, boonrip spb, mallyx herald, axe/scepter condi fb for condi melee comp
    -support scourge, support d/wh tempest, boonrip spb, berserker/reaper/staff DD/holosmith/guard slb, power fb for power melee comp
    -support fb, support staff tempest, hammer herald x2, weaver for power pirate ship
    -support scrapper, hybrid staff tempest, burn dh/fb, condi staff weaver/condi thief for condi pirate ship

    instead of... support fb, support scrapper, power scourge, power herald, power weaver/spb

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

    or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

    or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

    @SkyShroud.2865 Regardless of number the meta is the meta. You will find the same mandatory and optionnal specs/builds in GvG and blob. What else is there to look at than those 2?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

    or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

    @SkyShroud.2865 Regardless of number the meta is the meta. You will find the same mandatory and optionnal specs/builds in GvG and blob. What else is there to look at than those 2?

    Next biggest outlier is boon output, heralds in particular. Facets should pulse every 4s instead of 3s with a 2s duration on fury from darkness instead of 3s. Then remove the 10 target cap from Draconic echo and replace it with +1s base boon duration for each facet.

    Traited facets would then pulse 3s fury every 4s for 5 players, pushing comps to either sacrifice some Herald damage for concentration, run for great justice on warriors, or add pack runes to a class instead of scholars

  • fewfield.7802fewfield.7802 Member ✭✭✭

    I all agree.
    Lets do it Anet. If you are looking for gameplay changing, this is the good fix.

    Dont listen to those crying scourge mains. I am playing scourge as well but i think scourge deserves this nerf.

  • fewfield.7802fewfield.7802 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    This is an example of why Anet really shouldn't listen to people when it comes to changes. Your video shows exactly why Sand Savant on it's own is pathetic for damage. The problem people have is they are getting hit by multiple shade bombs, or shade bombs in combination with other melee and ranged bashing them at once. This doesn't mean Sand Savant or shades are a problem; it means too many people are playing (or required to play) scourges due to their boon corrupting abilities because boons themselves are out of control.

    This is further amplified by the kingpin or the mother of all problems with this meta; the Guardian does way too much (thus 1 role is helping Scourges survive because they are extremely vulnerable). Your idea of the Sand Savant change would only encourage people to bring more scourges (so instead of being hit with say 3 shade bombs, you maybe hit with 7-10), or people are going to gravitate to another class such as Rev which is going to make things even worse for melee.

    If people really want to shake up the melee.. like I mean really really shake it up, gut the Guardian. Instead of being able to kitten out Stab, Aegis, Resistance, Healing, Reflects, and to a lesser extent retaliation at will, narrow it down to doing one of those well, and medicore at best for another; then remove the 3 of them. For example, let them keep their party stab, but take away their ability to share Aegis, completely take away their ability to give resistance to themselves and others, and drastically lower their ability to heal themselves and the party. No more reflects, give it to another class, and class, but let them keep their retaliation but relegate to an AoE effect of 200 around them (not killing rangers or Ele's from 1200 away by their own attacks. Or even dragonhunters with their own traps from god knows how far away.

    That will shake things up, because now it will force other classes to come in and heal. It would then put more focus on Rev's to actually be running more of a support/resistance build instead 1-2 hit KO'ing people from the back line. This will then make scourges far more vulnerable to kill (even though they are still easy to kill for people who actually know what they're doing). Groups overall are going to have to figure out another method of fighting instead of running in nearly invulnerable under a veil of blocks, resistance, and healing. At least not all coming from 1 class, the idea of that is just asinine.

    it doesnt matter if ppl bring more or less scourge. What matters in this topic is that scourge is doing too much dmg and having insane space controlling. That's what encourages the pirateship meta. I dont mind nerfing GD and making other classes viable as well but in this topic, it's all true that scourge actually needs to be nerfed.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    I think keeping the support traits/ skills centered on the necro and the offense centered on the shade is the way to go. both shouldn't do both.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Everyone and their mother is running Permaboon tanks with Condi. The condi output in zergs is off the charts, and permaboons is keeping Defensive shields, invulns and reflects nearly with an up time of 97% to 100%. Basically God-mode on steroids.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

    or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

    That is the problem here. Guilds don't field 50+. Your wish for dynamic in blob can and will impact the guilds that fight outnumbered. Fighting outnumber biggest problem isn't the amount of aoe because aoe has been a thing for 7 years but the amount of boonstripping available from 2 different classes and likewise how mount can catch up and overcome any forms of cc and adsorb part of the damages. So what if you nerf scourge, you still have another class capable of boonstripping and since you nerf the dps of scourge, why would there be a chance small squad to deal with outnumbered? Their collective dps would drop as well. For blob fight, you just gonna shift the meta into pirateshipping with herald.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    If you think only changing 2 things will fix wvw you're sadly mistaken. Tons of nerfs to damage/healing/boon spam/condi spam/stealth are needed to get it respectable. The power creep in wvw is off the charts in a game mode that has large fights with a lot of people.

    Depending on how you look at it has destroyed the small scale/roaming and 15-20 guild game play all together plus power creep at the large scale factor. As well small scale combat specs suffer a total removal from the game mode based on large combat stealth tactics as a counter play. So where you had players in off peak hours with no guild groups keeping the game mode alive you no longer have that.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @SkyShroud.2865 said:
    The problem is you are looking at blob vs blob.

    which do you see more often, 20v20 or 50+v50+?

    or more realistically, 20v50+. which is where changing sand savant and antitoxin runes will have the most impact. full squad is a minimum of 10 scourge, each capable of a 50k+dps bomb that can collectively one shot anything under 30 people as soon as they get into <300 range. 500k total bomb after sand savant nerf becomes a 300k bomb, which you can actually fight back against, giving smaller guilds a chance to fight against a full squad again.

    That is the problem here. Guilds don't field 50+. Your wish for dynamic in blob can and will impact the guilds that fight outnumbered. Fighting outnumber biggest problem isn't the amount of aoe because aoe has been a thing for 7 years but the amount of boonstripping available from 2 different classes and likewise how mount can catch up and overcome any forms of cc and adsorb part of the damages. So what if you nerf scourge, you still have another class capable of boonstripping and since you nerf the dps of scourge, why would there be a chance small squad to deal with outnumbered? Their collective dps would drop as well. For blob fight, you just gonna shift the meta into pirateshipping with herald.

    Guilds field 20-30, then have another 20+ pugs follow whether the tag is open or not. That's been the norm for years man =/

    They're already nerfing scourge scepter, dropping the 10 target shade corrupts down to 6 target corrupts would be the icing on the cake.

    What do you think would be healthy changes for the meta? Mount down to 6k hp?

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