What type of elite spec do you want next?(Necromancer) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What type of elite spec do you want next?(Necromancer)

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  • Lich(tank)

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    A tank would be cool, Especially with bone armor and perhaps an ephemeral demon/shade behind the caster who eventually will be the form they take when they use shroud. I like the idea of becoming a big monstrosity who just brings havoc onto the battlefield, Making it darker and a more occultist take who perhaps even is completely different in its separate theme from necromancer could be cool.

    I love the idea of some eldritch horror, abomination bloodborne esq thing being stuff we passively summon and perhaps become.

    hmm in order to be a tank like a Mesmer they would need invulns and stuff no?

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    A tank would be cool, Especially with bone armor and perhaps an ephemeral demon/shade behind the caster who eventually will be the form they take when they use shroud. I like the idea of becoming a big monstrosity who just brings havoc onto the battlefield, Making it darker and a more occultist take who perhaps even is completely different in its separate theme from necromancer could be cool.

    I love the idea of some eldritch horror, abomination bloodborne esq thing being stuff we passively summon and perhaps become.

    hmm in order to be a tank like a Mesmer they would need invulns and stuff no?

    Nope, in order to be a tank like mesmer you don't need invuln and stuff like that... You just need to have survivability and provide a wanted support effects at a competitive level. Unfortunately the necromancer isn't thematically designed to provide boons or beneficial effects at a competitive level, the necromancer is thematically designed to reduce the effectiveness of it's foes. Unfortunately, again, increasing shared benefecial effects numbers and effectiveness doesn't seem to bother ANet's devs, while going beyond what the current debuff can do seem a bit difficult for ANet's devs to accept.

    Technically, to be a tank like mesmer, the necromancer would have to be able to have some survivability and break through the limit of the "essential" debuffs (well there is not that much in PvE, basically only vulnerability isn't nerfed to the ground by the breakbar system).

    Give the necromancer a non stackable debuff that reduce the defense of it's foe by a percentage of it's toughness (let's call it touch of death or whatever) and you automatically push him into a meta tank spot in PvE. A necromancer can easily breach 2000 point of toughness, if you set the debuff so that it reduce the necromancer's foe's defense by 10% of the necromancer's toughness, that's already reducing it by 200 points which wouldn't be negligible for any group in PvE all while making death magic and minions more attractive as tanking abilities. Even the impact on PvP/WvW wouldn't be great enough to be an issue.

    ANet's main issue in content developpement is that they unconsciously favor offensive stats over defensive stats. There is almost no room for defensive stats to shine, often making them unattractive.

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    A tank would be cool, Especially with bone armor and perhaps an ephemeral demon/shade behind the caster who eventually will be the form they take when they use shroud. I like the idea of becoming a big monstrosity who just brings havoc onto the battlefield, Making it darker and a more occultist take who perhaps even is completely different in its separate theme from necromancer could be cool.

    I love the idea of some eldritch horror, abomination bloodborne esq thing being stuff we passively summon and perhaps become.

    hmm in order to be a tank like a Mesmer they would need invulns and stuff no?

    Nope, in order to be a tank like mesmer you don't need invuln and stuff like that... You just need to have survivability and provide a wanted support effects at a competitive level. Unfortunately the necromancer isn't thematically designed to provide boons or beneficial effects at a competitive level, the necromancer is thematically designed to reduce the effectiveness of it's foes. Unfortunately, again, increasing shared benefecial effects numbers and effectiveness doesn't seem to bother ANet's devs, while going beyond what the current debuff can do seem a bit difficult for ANet's devs to accept.

    Technically, to be a tank like mesmer, the necromancer would have to be able to have some survivability and break through the limit of the "essential" debuffs (well there is not that much in PvE, basically only vulnerability isn't nerfed to the ground by the breakbar system).

    Give the necromancer a non stackable debuff that reduce the defense of it's foe by a percentage of it's toughness (let's call it touch of death or whatever) and you automatically push him into a meta tank spot in PvE. A necromancer can easily breach 2000 point of toughness, if you set the debuff so that it reduce the necromancer's foe's defense by 10% of the necromancer's toughness, that's already reducing it by 200 points which wouldn't be negligible for any group in PvE all while making death magic and minions more attractive as tanking abilities. Even the impact on PvP/WvW wouldn't be great enough to be an issue.

    ANet's main issue in content developpement is that they unconsciously favor offensive stats over defensive stats. There is almost no room for defensive stats to shine, often making them unattractive.

    Necromancer was a powerful support back in GW1. Crazy how much different the two classes are.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    Necromancer was a powerful support back in GW1. Crazy how much different the two classes are.

    Yep, if we look at GW1's necromancer, GW2's necromancer should have alacrity (since giving mana is the same as reducing CD) and slow. GW1's necromancer wasn't even close to be as selfish as GW2's necromancer, but somehow it ended up as The selfish profession of GW2. Blood magic in GW1 gave powerful healing support, orders gave offensive support, marks basically allowed allies to deal aoe damage with single target attack... etc. You could even make some allies immun to some conditions. How the core necromancer ended up into a selfish shroud user even worse at support than a warrior is beyond common sense.

    I'm not saying that moving toward the design idea of shrouding oneself into lifeforce wasn't a good idea for the GW2 necromancer (it was quite interesting), but there is way to much of the gw1 necromancer that have been lost in the process. The change is simply to drastic and hardly make sense in the end.

    The difference between GW1 necromancer and GW2's necromancer lead to to many questions in the end:

    • Why did it lose it's support when it was one of the best support in GW1? I mean, natural selection often lead you to take the path that your best at.
    • How come the necromancer ended up with a large health pool when it was at it's best when he had the lowest health pool possible in GW1? Using common sense, the necromancer should never have walked the path leading to own a large health pool.
    • Why the necromancer ended up having movement skills less effective than the other profession when he used to be one of the only professions with movement skill? That make no sense.
    • Why a profession that was even able to reduce all it's foes attributes to 0 isn't able to have unique debuffs reducing it's foe's strength or toughness? Did they round it up into boon ripping/boon corruption? Does it even make sense?
    • ... etc.

    And then GW2 necromancer in itself lead to new questions:

    • If he chose to walk the path leading to a large health pool, why did he give up on the tools that allowed him to retaliate when he take a beating? I mean, it took 7 years for ANet to introduce dark aura in this game and the necromancer in those 7 years lost almost oll it's access to retaliatory tools. Worse, the necromancer can hardly get dark aura.
    • Why do the necromancer have many traits related to minions when minions are a minor part of the necromancer that's not even supported by the main mechanism? The necromancer give up tools that would make the best out of it's mechanism yet he stay highly invested in "trash" tools like minions... Nonsense!
    • Why do the necromancer have 5 minions related trait and 0 spectral related traits when minions aren't related to it's special mechanism while spectral are directly related?
    • Why do traits buff minions passively when minions active skills are the one that badly need support from traits?
    • Why keep a 35s CD on well of darkness when nightfall do the same job with additional effects on a 25s CD?
    • ... etc.

    And on top of that GW2's environment itself incompatibility with the necromancer's design lead to interrogation:

    • Why is the necromancer's dps dependant on boon corruption and sending back condition when the environment hardly rely on boon and conditions?
    • Why is the necromancer focused on debuff when the environment can ignore 90% of the debuff?
    • How come the necromancer developped itself as a slow profession in an environment where the faster you are the better your result are?
    • How come ANet don't realise that boon corruption in PvE is infinitely inferior to boon corruption in PvP/WvW?
    • ... etc.

    From the choice of evolution of the necromancer to the current necromancer and how the environment is designed, absolutely nothing make sense. There are obvious simple changes that could resolve some of those nonsense yet we are 7-8 year in the game and ANet devs just continue to develop the necromancer in this curiously incompatible direction, keeping design nonsense alive and kicking, creating imbalance everywhere.

    Wouldn't all of this be a good reason to make them a tank? Make the more of a bruiser and since their toughness and health can already reach crazy high levels depending on stat sets; This could make them fit this role easily. I feel like offering passive damage reduction, thorns which reflect damage, constant lifesteal and constant ticking damage along with some decent but not super high dps they could be really strong. Messmers really aren't all that as chrono while useful is really just kinda "Ok" at being a tank, the misunderstanding is that tanks hold aggro/ are nothing but big meat shields. Tanks can be so much more than this and I think its about time we had more of them added to the game.

    Id like at least three tank specs because at the moment we have more than enough dps/support specs that have been added to the game. If anything this should be about healing/tank specs so that we get a soft trinity going and with them having a defined role they won't have to be reworked a million times to solidify themselves in these roles. As someone who loves being/playing a tank I feel like this might be why guild wars 2 doesn't hold me as much as I'd like it too, because Im limited to messmer when I want to tank(Effectively that is.) And that sucks. Spread the love A-net...

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Wouldn't all of this be a good reason to make them a tank? Make the more of a bruiser and since their toughness and health can already reach crazy high levels depending on stat sets; This could make them fit this role easily. I feel like offering passive damage reduction, thorns which reflect damage, constant lifesteal and constant ticking damage along with some decent but not super high dps they could be really strong. Messmers really aren't all that as chrono while useful is really just kinda "Ok" at being a tank, the misunderstanding is that tanks hold aggro/ are nothing but big meat shields. Tanks can be so much more than this and I think its about time we had more of them added to the game.

    Id like at least three tank specs because at the moment we have more than enough dps/support specs that have been added to the game. If anything this should be about healing/tank specs so that we get a soft trinity going and with them having a defined role they won't have to be reworked a million times to solidify themselves in these roles. As someone who loves being/playing a tank I feel like this might be why guild wars 2 doesn't hold me as much as I'd like it too, because Im limited to messmer when I want to tank(Effectively that is.) And that sucks. Spread the love A-net...

    The issue is a problem of perception.

    In PvP/WvW, you can add all the damage reduction you wish you just end up eaten quickly if you lack a way to keep your health bar safe (dodge/block/invuln). While in PvE, nobody want a pure tank because every profession can already "tank" easily since 2012 and we all know that the content is easier done when dishing out the maximum amount of damage possible.

    Chrono isn't a tank per se, but he is the one that do the job because it's convenient. The reason is that the chrono provide essential support that lead to a drop of it's personnal DPS so if he don't take on the tank job, you'll end up with a drop of the global efficiency of your group.

    That's why, in order to shake chrono off of it's spot as a tank, another profession need to provide something that make you think: "Yeah! That's something worth putting chrono into a support role and take this profession as the tank!". FB/renegade directly try to compete with the chrono support tools which led to a lot of "balance" change on the chrono's end for an arguable result where people think: "it's either chrono/druid or FB/revenant".

    To make the necromancer a tank in PvE, capitalizing on an unique debuff that grow stronger the more toughness you have is a fiting solution, however it is not a solution that can make this necromancer a tank in PvP/WvW. In a way it's a good thing because PvPer hate tanks, but at the same time it defeat the purpose of being a "tank" spec. Most players would thus call this spec a "debuff" spec instead of a "tank" spec. The only way for a necromancer spec to be seen as a "tank" spec is to fill it to the brim with defensive, mobility and sustain tools (improving survivability in PvP/WvW), puting aside the "debuff" tool which is essential for the spec to be effectively used as a tank in PvE (and close to be useless in PvP/WvW).

    I don't know if I explained it clearly, but in short, due to the vast difference between PvE and PvP/WvW perception, a competitive PvE tank spec would not be perceived as a tank spec by PvP/WvW players. While a PvP/WvW tank spec don't have a high probability to become a competitive PvE tank spec. To be able to compete on the tank spot in PvE, a spec don't need tanking ability but a little extra that would allow it to be favored over chrono.

  • Lich(tank)

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Wouldn't all of this be a good reason to make them a tank? Make the more of a bruiser and since their toughness and health can already reach crazy high levels depending on stat sets; This could make them fit this role easily. I feel like offering passive damage reduction, thorns which reflect damage, constant lifesteal and constant ticking damage along with some decent but not super high dps they could be really strong. Messmers really aren't all that as chrono while useful is really just kinda "Ok" at being a tank, the misunderstanding is that tanks hold aggro/ are nothing but big meat shields. Tanks can be so much more than this and I think its about time we had more of them added to the game.

    Id like at least three tank specs because at the moment we have more than enough dps/support specs that have been added to the game. If anything this should be about healing/tank specs so that we get a soft trinity going and with them having a defined role they won't have to be reworked a million times to solidify themselves in these roles. As someone who loves being/playing a tank I feel like this might be why guild wars 2 doesn't hold me as much as I'd like it too, because Im limited to messmer when I want to tank(Effectively that is.) And that sucks. Spread the love A-net...

    The issue is a problem of perception.

    In PvP/WvW, you can add all the damage reduction you wish you just end up eaten quickly if you lack a way to keep your health bar safe (dodge/block/invuln). While in PvE, nobody want a pure tank because every profession can already "tank" easily since 2012 and we all know that the content is easier done when dishing out the maximum amount of damage possible.

    Chrono isn't a tank per se, but he is the one that do the job because it's convenient. The reason is that the chrono provide essential support that lead to a drop of it's personnal DPS so if he don't take on the tank job, you'll end up with a drop of the global efficiency of your group.

    That's why, in order to shake chrono off of it's spot as a tank, another profession need to provide something that make you think: "Yeah! That's something worth putting chrono into a support role and take this profession as the tank!". FB/renegade directly try to compete with the chrono support tools which led to a lot of "balance" change on the chrono's end for an arguable result where people think: "it's either chrono/druid or FB/revenant".

    To make the necromancer a tank in PvE, capitalizing on an unique debuff that grow stronger the more toughness you have is a fiting solution, however it is not a solution that can make this necromancer a tank in PvP/WvW. In a way it's a good thing because PvPer hate tanks, but at the same time it defeat the purpose of being a "tank" spec. Most players would thus call this spec a "debuff" spec instead of a "tank" spec. The only way for a necromancer spec to be seen as a "tank" spec is to fill it to the brim with defensive, mobility and sustain tools (improving survivability in PvP/WvW), puting aside the "debuff" tool which is essential for the spec to be effectively used as a tank in PvE (and close to be useless in PvP/WvW).

    I don't know if I explained it clearly, but in short, due to the vast difference between PvE and PvP/WvW perception, a competitive PvE tank spec would not be perceived as a tank spec by PvP/WvW players. While a PvP/WvW tank spec don't have a high probability to become a competitive PvE tank spec. To be able to compete on the tank spot in PvE, a spec don't need tanking ability but a little extra that would allow it to be favored over chrono.

    Regardless I Feel its something the game needs, Im tired of it being "Bring big dps or don't play." We need comprehensive tone backs of dps output, we need the game to pull back and utterly punish the current meta. (Force the playerbase to adapt.) They did this with HoT and while the whining got crazy people eventually learned to cope, and evolved due to it. E-specs should bring more than just more damage to a kit, but the issue is the dev's seem to favor this idea of making MoBa style character specs that just make crazy kits ontop of already good kits.

    I mean really the game has become kind of limited in build-craft, theory-crafting and so on because the game is so simplistic you either run Xstat or run Ystat but both are the most optimal because of the raw dps increase. So making "Tank" specs or more bruiser sustain based specs they could be made to shrug off damage or even redirect it back, which makes people have to play smarter. Make specs this time around who punish the other specs; Build them around countering them and bringing new tools to the table and people will make them work. Regardless of the inherent issues plaguing the game these specs would be a breath of fresh air and healthy for the game, I firmly believe ALL classes should have specs built to make them fill any role they desire. (Support, Bruiser, Tank, Dps) And rather than pigeon holing people into a given arch-type let the player choose based on their preferred playstyle. (Like most other MMO's)

  • Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    I've been working on my own version of a hyper-aggressive lifesteal spec.
    So far, I've settled on getting permanent Quickness and Alacrity when below a health threshold, as in raids those can be supplied while keeping at full health, but I'm interested in more options as well, since I don't feel that's enough.

    In my opinion, the game needs less "hyper-agressive" play styles and less boon application.
    And the current existing ones need huge nerfs.

    "Hyper-aggressive" in this case is more along the lines of Kled and Illaoai from League of Legends than Kha'Zix or Katarina. They're not assassins, but if they want to make it through to the other end of a teamfight, they have to go in hard.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    "Hyper-aggressive" in this case is more along the lines of Kled and Illaoai from League of Legends than Kha'Zix or Katarina. They're not assassins, but if they want to make it through to the other end of a teamfight, they have to go in hard.

    Some people don't play that game and therefore have no idea what your comment means.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019
    Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    "Hyper-aggressive" in this case is more along the lines of Kled and Illaoai from League of Legends than Kha'Zix or Katarina. They're not assassins, but if they want to make it through to the other end of a teamfight, they have to go in hard.

    Some people don't play that game and therefore have no idea what your comment means.

    Kha'Zix and Katarina are two of your more typical assassins in the game, who try to go in at the right moment to pick off their targets (Kha'Zix when the target is separated from allies, Katarina is the ultimate teamfight cleanup).

    Kled and Illaoi, however, are both tankier champions that have to get into the fray and stay there. They have strong sustain, provided they keep fighting. If they break off, they can be pummeled. If they do keep fighting, they can swing the entire fight in their favor. Kled in particular was designed with the philosophy of "Fight is starting? Go ham. Fight goes poorly? Go more ham! You're almost dead? GO HAM AND MAKE THEM RUE THE DAY THEY CHALLENGED YOU!!!" A well-played Kled can take several times his health bar in damage in a single fight and still walk out the other side.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Regardless I Feel its something the game needs, Im tired of it being "Bring big dps or don't play." We need comprehensive tone backs of dps output, we need the game to pull back and utterly punish the current meta. (Force the playerbase to adapt.) They did this with HoT and while the whining got crazy people eventually learned to cope, and evolved due to it. E-specs should bring more than just more damage to a kit, but the issue is the dev's seem to favor this idea of making MoBa style character specs that just make crazy kits ontop of already good kits.

    I mean really the game has become kind of limited in build-craft, theory-crafting and so on because the game is so simplistic you either run Xstat or run Ystat but both are the most optimal because of the raw dps increase. So making "Tank" specs or more bruiser sustain based specs they could be made to shrug off damage or even redirect it back, which makes people have to play smarter. Make specs this time around who punish the other specs; Build them around countering them and bringing new tools to the table and people will make them work. Regardless of the inherent issues plaguing the game these specs would be a breath of fresh air and healthy for the game, I firmly believe ALL classes should have specs built to make them fill any role they desire. (Support, Bruiser, Tank, Dps) And rather than pigeon holing people into a given arch-type let the player choose based on their preferred playstyle. (Like most other MMO's)

    I think there is a misunderstanding, all professions can already fill the differents roles (support, bruiser, tank, dps) it's just that some profession are more effective than other. You can perfectly heal with a core necro and you can even manage some results with a thief or a warrior. You can deal power damage and condition damage with all professions. You can tank with all professions even thiefs and elementalists... etc. All of this is possible and effective, but unfortunately not all professions can be the "most effective tactic available" that players look for.

    It's totally possible to complete raids with full necro team or full any profession. This has been done and can still be done without much problem. However, players always aim for the most efficient way to do things and expect other to have the same mindset. You've got a problem with the "meta", not with the ability of each professions to fill multiple role if correctly built.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Wouldn't all of this be a good reason to make them a tank? Make the more of a bruiser and since their toughness and health can already reach crazy high levels depending on stat sets; This could make them fit this role easily. I feel like offering passive damage reduction, thorns which reflect damage, constant lifesteal and constant ticking damage along with some decent but not super high dps they could be really strong. Messmers really aren't all that as chrono while useful is really just kinda "Ok" at being a tank, the misunderstanding is that tanks hold aggro/ are nothing but big meat shields. Tanks can be so much more than this and I think its about time we had more of them added to the game.

    Id like at least three tank specs because at the moment we have more than enough dps/support specs that have been added to the game. If anything this should be about healing/tank specs so that we get a soft trinity going and with them having a defined role they won't have to be reworked a million times to solidify themselves in these roles. As someone who loves being/playing a tank I feel like this might be why guild wars 2 doesn't hold me as much as I'd like it too, because Im limited to messmer when I want to tank(Effectively that is.) And that sucks. Spread the love A-net...

    The issue is a problem of perception.

    In PvP/WvW, you can add all the damage reduction you wish you just end up eaten quickly if you lack a way to keep your health bar safe (dodge/block/invuln). While in PvE, nobody want a pure tank because every profession can already "tank" easily since 2012 and we all know that the content is easier done when dishing out the maximum amount of damage possible.

    Chrono isn't a tank per se, but he is the one that do the job because it's convenient. The reason is that the chrono provide essential support that lead to a drop of it's personnal DPS so if he don't take on the tank job, you'll end up with a drop of the global efficiency of your group.

    That's why, in order to shake chrono off of it's spot as a tank, another profession need to provide something that make you think: "Yeah! That's something worth putting chrono into a support role and take this profession as the tank!". FB/renegade directly try to compete with the chrono support tools which led to a lot of "balance" change on the chrono's end for an arguable result where people think: "it's either chrono/druid or FB/revenant".

    To make the necromancer a tank in PvE, capitalizing on an unique debuff that grow stronger the more toughness you have is a fiting solution, however it is not a solution that can make this necromancer a tank in PvP/WvW. In a way it's a good thing because PvPer hate tanks, but at the same time it defeat the purpose of being a "tank" spec. Most players would thus call this spec a "debuff" spec instead of a "tank" spec. The only way for a necromancer spec to be seen as a "tank" spec is to fill it to the brim with defensive, mobility and sustain tools (improving survivability in PvP/WvW), puting aside the "debuff" tool which is essential for the spec to be effectively used as a tank in PvE (and close to be useless in PvP/WvW).

    I don't know if I explained it clearly, but in short, due to the vast difference between PvE and PvP/WvW perception, a competitive PvE tank spec would not be perceived as a tank spec by PvP/WvW players. While a PvP/WvW tank spec don't have a high probability to become a competitive PvE tank spec. To be able to compete on the tank spot in PvE, a spec don't need tanking ability but a little extra that would allow it to be favored over chrono.

    Regardless I Feel its something the game needs, Im tired of it being "Bring big dps or don't play." We need comprehensive tone backs of dps output, we need the game to pull back and utterly punish the current meta. (Force the playerbase to adapt.) They did this with HoT and while the whining got crazy people eventually learned to cope, and evolved due to it. E-specs should bring more than just more damage to a kit, but the issue is the dev's seem to favor this idea of making MoBa style character specs that just make crazy kits ontop of already good kits.

    I mean really the game has become kind of limited in build-craft, theory-crafting and so on because the game is so simplistic you either run Xstat or run Ystat but both are the most optimal because of the raw dps increase. So making "Tank" specs or more bruiser sustain based specs they could be made to shrug off damage or even redirect it back, which makes people have to play smarter. Make specs this time around who punish the other specs; Build them around countering them and bringing new tools to the table and people will make them work. Regardless of the inherent issues plaguing the game these specs would be a breath of fresh air and healthy for the game, I firmly believe ALL classes should have specs built to make them fill any role they desire. (Support, Bruiser, Tank, Dps) And rather than pigeon holing people into a given arch-type let the player choose based on their preferred playstyle. (Like most other MMO's)

    Unfortunately dadnir is right about that. People do want to do the most effective way to finish things. I do think though that Anet can do better in terms of making necromancers boon corrupt more useful in pve or have the vampiric drain thing be better to give your team in group a drain effect on the life of your enemies when you attack or something alike.

    I don-t think there is much besides incentivize more on bringing necros as support.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

  • Lich(tank)

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Regardless I Feel its something the game needs, Im tired of it being "Bring big dps or don't play." We need comprehensive tone backs of dps output, we need the game to pull back and utterly punish the current meta. (Force the playerbase to adapt.) They did this with HoT and while the whining got crazy people eventually learned to cope, and evolved due to it. E-specs should bring more than just more damage to a kit, but the issue is the dev's seem to favor this idea of making MoBa style character specs that just make crazy kits ontop of already good kits.

    I mean really the game has become kind of limited in build-craft, theory-crafting and so on because the game is so simplistic you either run Xstat or run Ystat but both are the most optimal because of the raw dps increase. So making "Tank" specs or more bruiser sustain based specs they could be made to shrug off damage or even redirect it back, which makes people have to play smarter. Make specs this time around who punish the other specs; Build them around countering them and bringing new tools to the table and people will make them work. Regardless of the inherent issues plaguing the game these specs would be a breath of fresh air and healthy for the game, I firmly believe ALL classes should have specs built to make them fill any role they desire. (Support, Bruiser, Tank, Dps) And rather than pigeon holing people into a given arch-type let the player choose based on their preferred playstyle. (Like most other MMO's)

    I think there is a misunderstanding, all professions can already fill the differents roles (support, bruiser, tank, dps) it's just that some profession are more effective than other. You can perfectly heal with a core necro and you can even manage some results with a thief or a warrior. You can deal power damage and condition damage with all professions. You can tank with all professions even thiefs and elementalists... etc. All of this is possible and effective, but unfortunately not all professions can be the "most effective tactic available" that players look for.

    It's totally possible to complete raids with full necro team or full any profession. This has been done and can still be done without much problem. However, players always aim for the most efficient way to do things and expect other to have the same mindset. You've got a problem with the "meta", not with the ability of each professions to fill multiple role if correctly built.

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Wouldn't all of this be a good reason to make them a tank? Make the more of a bruiser and since their toughness and health can already reach crazy high levels depending on stat sets; This could make them fit this role easily. I feel like offering passive damage reduction, thorns which reflect damage, constant lifesteal and constant ticking damage along with some decent but not super high dps they could be really strong. Messmers really aren't all that as chrono while useful is really just kinda "Ok" at being a tank, the misunderstanding is that tanks hold aggro/ are nothing but big meat shields. Tanks can be so much more than this and I think its about time we had more of them added to the game.

    Id like at least three tank specs because at the moment we have more than enough dps/support specs that have been added to the game. If anything this should be about healing/tank specs so that we get a soft trinity going and with them having a defined role they won't have to be reworked a million times to solidify themselves in these roles. As someone who loves being/playing a tank I feel like this might be why guild wars 2 doesn't hold me as much as I'd like it too, because Im limited to messmer when I want to tank(Effectively that is.) And that sucks. Spread the love A-net...

    The issue is a problem of perception.

    In PvP/WvW, you can add all the damage reduction you wish you just end up eaten quickly if you lack a way to keep your health bar safe (dodge/block/invuln). While in PvE, nobody want a pure tank because every profession can already "tank" easily since 2012 and we all know that the content is easier done when dishing out the maximum amount of damage possible.

    Chrono isn't a tank per se, but he is the one that do the job because it's convenient. The reason is that the chrono provide essential support that lead to a drop of it's personnal DPS so if he don't take on the tank job, you'll end up with a drop of the global efficiency of your group.

    That's why, in order to shake chrono off of it's spot as a tank, another profession need to provide something that make you think: "Yeah! That's something worth putting chrono into a support role and take this profession as the tank!". FB/renegade directly try to compete with the chrono support tools which led to a lot of "balance" change on the chrono's end for an arguable result where people think: "it's either chrono/druid or FB/revenant".

    To make the necromancer a tank in PvE, capitalizing on an unique debuff that grow stronger the more toughness you have is a fiting solution, however it is not a solution that can make this necromancer a tank in PvP/WvW. In a way it's a good thing because PvPer hate tanks, but at the same time it defeat the purpose of being a "tank" spec. Most players would thus call this spec a "debuff" spec instead of a "tank" spec. The only way for a necromancer spec to be seen as a "tank" spec is to fill it to the brim with defensive, mobility and sustain tools (improving survivability in PvP/WvW), puting aside the "debuff" tool which is essential for the spec to be effectively used as a tank in PvE (and close to be useless in PvP/WvW).

    I don't know if I explained it clearly, but in short, due to the vast difference between PvE and PvP/WvW perception, a competitive PvE tank spec would not be perceived as a tank spec by PvP/WvW players. While a PvP/WvW tank spec don't have a high probability to become a competitive PvE tank spec. To be able to compete on the tank spot in PvE, a spec don't need tanking ability but a little extra that would allow it to be favored over chrono.

    Regardless I Feel its something the game needs, Im tired of it being "Bring big dps or don't play." We need comprehensive tone backs of dps output, we need the game to pull back and utterly punish the current meta. (Force the playerbase to adapt.) They did this with HoT and while the whining got crazy people eventually learned to cope, and evolved due to it. E-specs should bring more than just more damage to a kit, but the issue is the dev's seem to favor this idea of making MoBa style character specs that just make crazy kits ontop of already good kits.

    I mean really the game has become kind of limited in build-craft, theory-crafting and so on because the game is so simplistic you either run Xstat or run Ystat but both are the most optimal because of the raw dps increase. So making "Tank" specs or more bruiser sustain based specs they could be made to shrug off damage or even redirect it back, which makes people have to play smarter. Make specs this time around who punish the other specs; Build them around countering them and bringing new tools to the table and people will make them work. Regardless of the inherent issues plaguing the game these specs would be a breath of fresh air and healthy for the game, I firmly believe ALL classes should have specs built to make them fill any role they desire. (Support, Bruiser, Tank, Dps) And rather than pigeon holing people into a given arch-type let the player choose based on their preferred playstyle. (Like most other MMO's)

    Unfortunately dadnir is right about that. People do want to do the most effective way to finish things. I do think though that Anet can do better in terms of making necromancers boon corrupt more useful in pve or have the vampiric drain thing be better to give your team in group a drain effect on the life of your enemies when you attack or something alike.

    I don-t think there is much besides incentivize more on bringing necros as support.

    Ill summarize my opinion as this. "The Class identity, and class design here is utter garbage." There is no reason to take x class over Y for a given role as they are not given the effective tools as you have stated. This is what I think should be rectified and fixed; We should have a spec "Geared" and built with tanking/being a bruiser in mind for each and every class. Same with support; Everyone should have the tools and option to go into that play-style (As you both have said, they don't. Not optimally at least while they can fill the role it won't feel as good as another class.). A soft trinity with themed E-specs built for specific roles is fine and we can and will find a way to make them competitively viable, but right now all the specs at least to me feel somewhat the same. They really don't change too much what is the given formula for a class, it just makes it so it functions with minor differences from its core spec. (In some cases its just a straight upgrade. Firebrand and guardian are pretty good examples of this, as is herald and revenant.)

    I do have a problem with the "meta" but not so much it, as the player-bases blind willingness to follow it and never ask for change. Tanking in this game is a horrible experience and utterly boring compared to any other game out there. A shame considering it is my preferred role; There is no incentive to not building full dps in any game mode because if you learn to play carefully it will give you maximum reward with little drawbacks. Making specs built around countering this mindset, built from the ground up to stomp glass canon builds and to counter the elite specs built to this point would be wise. Not only would it force players to potentially open their eyes and minds to larger theory craft, it would teach players not to rely on "Big numbers" To achieve the result desired.

    Until more tank specs, or specs built for tanking/bruiser builds with the tools required to offer that type of play I probably won't be too interested going forward. Im tired of support specs and Im sick to death of crazy over-tune dps specs. I would very much appreciate something different and perhaps stronger themes; PoF's specs really didn't tickle my pickle so to speak. (I unlocked them, dabbled but didn't grow to like them or be interested in them once so ever.) I do play them from time to time and work on builds with them but they really didn't make me go "Wow thats cool!" Like HoT did. (Here is hoping for darker E-specs this saga, seeing as eldritch horror and dark themes are whats going into the building of said saga.)

  • Lich(tank)

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    To be clear I don't per-say support the "Lich" spec as much as "tank" or "bruiser" options in general. Necromancer sure is more built around being sustain ridden, but see if we got the lich spec they could strip a ton of the defensive prowess off core and rework it. Then funnel all of what they had and refine it into the elite spec, this then would siphon off what is not the necromancer (From guild wars 1, and from the arch-type its supposed to fill.) and bring it into a more friendly nature to what a necro typically is. Then you could have this "Tank spec" whatever it may be embody what the guild wars 2 necromancer "Was" but with its tools made stronger and more polished as it would be a Elite spec, you win. We win. Everyone wins. (Wouldn't be the first time they did it either, Firebrand was siphoned off core guard way before it ever came to life. Messmer just had all its specs/core reworked as did thief. And this gave each spec identity outside of the core class, and made their play-styles unique to them while retaining some identity for core.)

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    To be clear I don't per-say support the "Lich" spec as much as "tank" or "bruiser" options in general. Necromancer sure is more built around being sustain ridden, but see if we got the lich spec they could strip a ton of the defensive prowess off core and rework it. Then funnel all of what they had and refine it into the elite spec, this then would siphon off what is not the necromancer (From guild wars 1, and from the arch-type its supposed to fill.) and bring it into a more friendly nature to what a necro typically is. Then you could have this "Tank spec" whatever it may be embody what the guild wars 2 necromancer "Was" but with its tools made stronger and more polished as it would be a Elite spec, you win. We win. Everyone wins. (Wouldn't be the first time they did it either, Firebrand was siphoned off core guard way before it ever came to life. Messmer just had all its specs/core reworked as did thief. And this gave each spec identity outside of the core class, and made their play-styles unique to them while retaining some identity for core.)

    You're far more optimistic about that than I am. I don't think that would happen at all. I think a tank spec would just provide the defenses that Death magic should have in the first place with death not being touched. That's what I see happening. If the GW2 necromancer was more like the GW1 necromancer then we'd likely see what you're saying, but we're not.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    I never played GW1 unfortunately I was playing everquest first then world of Warcraft for 2 years then moved on to other stuff, but i did look up GW1 but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of GW1.

    Thornwolf:

    I have a ton of problems with this games, which is why i was turned off and left and almost never play. The way necromancer right now plays turns me off so that i-d rather play ele due to how limited their mobility and support is. In pvp i really hate being a punching bag that cannot escape with core from elites with insta cc and insta kill burst attacks.

    It looks as if Anet is disinterested in changing the problem as they would need to change from ground up a lot of issues regarding not only necro, but some classes now under perform compared to firebrand even.

    I said in the past that we should build for the holy trinity of builds so we can have a role we fit, because you have a class which has massive dps and sustain combined is insanity, and even having support combined with that as well when some classes who spec can't even compete with 1 role. Everyone is speaking about the power creep that scourge brought fire brand mirage and the amount of sustain and dmg soulbeast has.

    I personally think the elites should act as different ways to play and not necessarily better, but i guess thats impossible becasue of A: Q--Qers will always whine and get stuff gutted and B: Anet wants you to buy the newest expansion to make more money.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lich(tank)

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    To be clear I don't per-say support the "Lich" spec as much as "tank" or "bruiser" options in general. Necromancer sure is more built around being sustain ridden, but see if we got the lich spec they could strip a ton of the defensive prowess off core and rework it. Then funnel all of what they had and refine it into the elite spec, this then would siphon off what is not the necromancer (From guild wars 1, and from the arch-type its supposed to fill.) and bring it into a more friendly nature to what a necro typically is. Then you could have this "Tank spec" whatever it may be embody what the guild wars 2 necromancer "Was" but with its tools made stronger and more polished as it would be a Elite spec, you win. We win. Everyone wins. (Wouldn't be the first time they did it either, Firebrand was siphoned off core guard way before it ever came to life. Messmer just had all its specs/core reworked as did thief. And this gave each spec identity outside of the core class, and made their play-styles unique to them while retaining some identity for core.)

    You're far more optimistic about that than I am. I don't think that would happen at all. I think a tank spec would just provide the defenses that Death magic should have in the first place with death not being touched. That's what I see happening. If the GW2 necromancer was more like the GW1 necromancer then we'd likely see what you're saying, but we're not.

    They have already stated Both death magic and staff are on the workshop table, but neither are ready for their rework. They've been there for a while but they "Will" be getting reworked so I think its more Im going based on what I know. Im not optimistic I think class design right now is completely hot garbage, and nothing has an identity they murdered shroud so a lot of the sustain is gone. Scourage is 100% a better choice than either core or Reaper right now, I think we need a hard rework and I think if Death magic gets reworked as I think it will (More about more minions, and tons of deathly based things. And less about defense as that is what they stated they wished to change.) Then a tank spec would fit nicely to take its place.

  • Lich(tank)

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    I never played GW1 unfortunately I was playing everquest first then world of Warcraft for 2 years then moved on to other stuff, but i did look up GW1 but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of GW1.

    Thornwolf:

    I have a ton of problems with this games, which is why i was turned off and left and almost never play. The way necromancer right now plays turns me off so that i-d rather play ele due to how limited their mobility and support is. In pvp i really hate being a punching bag that cannot escape with core from elites with insta cc and insta kill burst attacks.

    It looks as if Anet is disinterested in changing the problem as they would need to change from ground up a lot of issues regarding not only necro, but some classes now under perform compared to firebrand even.

    I said in the past that we should build for the holy trinity of builds so we can have a role we fit, because you have a class which has massive dps and sustain combined is insanity, and even having support combined with that as well when some classes who spec can't even compete with 1 role. Everyone is speaking about the power creep that scourge brought fire brand mirage and the amount of sustain and dmg soulbeast has.

    I personally think the elites should act as different ways to play and not necessarily better, but i guess thats impossible becasue of A: Q--Qers will always whine and get stuff gutted and B: Anet wants you to buy the newest expansion to make more money.

    I agree with you 100%, I mean how they have changed Rev has made me somewhat move away from the profession. Necromancer is kind of in the same boat; I really do think the holy trinity is what we need. Sure people whine and complain about it but it always ensures the game has a semblance of balance, removing it opens the door to power-creep to levels unimaginable and makes creating new content difficult.

    I never though the new stuff was OP, I mean soul-beast having one shot builds were insane but I felt it was more they were over-tuned with toys not that they themselves were OP. Same with mirage and to some degree scourge and firebrand, they did too much and left there being no reason to take the other facets of the class and provided too much "Jack of all trades" play-style. This wouldn't of been a problem if other classes had the same level of tricks but a lot of specs fall off and become more like bloated useless drivel especially when they get gutted.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    I never played GW1 unfortunately I was playing everquest first then world of Warcraft for 2 years then moved on to other stuff, but i did look up GW1 but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of GW1.

    Thornwolf:

    I have a ton of problems with this games, which is why i was turned off and left and almost never play. The way necromancer right now plays turns me off so that i-d rather play ele due to how limited their mobility and support is. In pvp i really hate being a punching bag that cannot escape with core from elites with insta cc and insta kill burst attacks.

    It looks as if Anet is disinterested in changing the problem as they would need to change from ground up a lot of issues regarding not only necro, but some classes now under perform compared to firebrand even.

    I said in the past that we should build for the holy trinity of builds so we can have a role we fit, because you have a class which has massive dps and sustain combined is insanity, and even having support combined with that as well when some classes who spec can't even compete with 1 role. Everyone is speaking about the power creep that scourge brought fire brand mirage and the amount of sustain and dmg soulbeast has.

    I personally think the elites should act as different ways to play and not necessarily better, but i guess thats impossible becasue of A: Q--Qers will always whine and get stuff gutted and B: Anet wants you to buy the newest expansion to make more money.

    I agree with you 100%, I mean how they have changed Rev has made me somewhat move away from the profession. Necromancer is kind of in the same boat; I really do think the holy trinity is what we need. Sure people whine and complain about it but it always ensures the game has a semblance of balance, removing it opens the door to power-creep to levels unimaginable and makes creating new content difficult.

    I never though the new stuff was OP, I mean soul-beast having one shot builds were insane but I felt it was more they were over-tuned with toys not that they themselves were OP. Same with mirage and to some degree scourge and firebrand, they did too much and left there being no reason to take the other facets of the class and provided too much "Jack of all trades" play-style. This wouldn't of been a problem if other classes had the same level of tricks but a lot of specs fall off and become more like bloated useless drivel especially when they get gutted.

    Its very op because some classes don't have much and others have ridiculous amounts combined with ridiculous damage in spvp. If you combine both you can be neigh invincible while wrecking everyone, but i think thats a problem of the design choices of ANET.

    Some classes like necro either need to be built up like them to compete, or the ones that are too strong in sustain and damage need to be heavily penalized and make them sacrifice damage in spvp and WVW. Mind you i am not mentioning pve as its not the same issue since nobody really cares if you can survive. Worse yet is some classes have too much of everything, which is because as you said earlier everyone in their newer elites is the jack of al trades.

    besides that even if they do add the holy trinity they haven't fixed the issue of necro cc and boon corrupts being good in pve. Boon corrupt works in tier 3 fractals and condi corrupts, but if they nerf it further then they risk making necromancers obsolete in even that role.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lich(tank)

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    This is all very enlightening and frustrating.

    There is a very clear divide in the necromancer community on what its identity should be and this confusion is clearly leading to confused design from the devs. I think its even more imperative that we expand the scope of what the necromancer is capable of in order to help bridge this divide. But this is really the information I wanted to pull. I personaly LOATHE the idea of being a tank. I've been expected to play tanky for 7 years and have been told "You don't need to be good because you're tanky" When I never wanted to be a tank.

    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    This dispute can't really be resolved, and I almost feel that necromancer as a class should be entirely reworked, removed in its current form and brought back as two completely separate classes. But that's not going to happen. The design philosophy is clearly corrupted. And not in a good way.

    I never played GW1 unfortunately I was playing everquest first then world of Warcraft for 2 years then moved on to other stuff, but i did look up GW1 but that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge of GW1.

    Thornwolf:

    I have a ton of problems with this games, which is why i was turned off and left and almost never play. The way necromancer right now plays turns me off so that i-d rather play ele due to how limited their mobility and support is. In pvp i really hate being a punching bag that cannot escape with core from elites with insta cc and insta kill burst attacks.

    It looks as if Anet is disinterested in changing the problem as they would need to change from ground up a lot of issues regarding not only necro, but some classes now under perform compared to firebrand even.

    I said in the past that we should build for the holy trinity of builds so we can have a role we fit, because you have a class which has massive dps and sustain combined is insanity, and even having support combined with that as well when some classes who spec can't even compete with 1 role. Everyone is speaking about the power creep that scourge brought fire brand mirage and the amount of sustain and dmg soulbeast has.

    I personally think the elites should act as different ways to play and not necessarily better, but i guess thats impossible becasue of A: Q--Qers will always whine and get stuff gutted and B: Anet wants you to buy the newest expansion to make more money.

    I agree with you 100%, I mean how they have changed Rev has made me somewhat move away from the profession. Necromancer is kind of in the same boat; I really do think the holy trinity is what we need. Sure people whine and complain about it but it always ensures the game has a semblance of balance, removing it opens the door to power-creep to levels unimaginable and makes creating new content difficult.

    I never though the new stuff was OP, I mean soul-beast having one shot builds were insane but I felt it was more they were over-tuned with toys not that they themselves were OP. Same with mirage and to some degree scourge and firebrand, they did too much and left there being no reason to take the other facets of the class and provided too much "Jack of all trades" play-style. This wouldn't of been a problem if other classes had the same level of tricks but a lot of specs fall off and become more like bloated useless drivel especially when they get gutted.

    Its very op because some classes don't have much and others have ridiculous amounts combined with ridiculous damage in spvp. If you combine both you can be neigh invincible while wrecking everyone, but i think thats a problem of the design choices of ANET.

    Some classes like necro either need to be built up like them to compete, or the ones that are too strong in sustain and damage need to be heavily penalized and make them sacrifice damage in spvp and WVW. Mind you i am not mentioning pve as its not the same issue since nobody really cares if you can survive. Worse yet is some classes have too much of everything, which is because as you said earlier everyone in their newer elites is the jack of al trades.

    besides that even if they do add the holy trinity they haven't fixed the issue of necro cc and boon corrupts being good in pve. Boon corrupt works in tier 3 fractals and condi corrupts, but if they nerf it further then they risk making necromancers obsolete in even that role.

    They've already said they intend on nerfing it, along with condi-cleanse. So in reality they are removing classes from the meta; Back-line rev is getting hit hard with its hammer nerfs and paired with the nerfs to might up-keep and glint as a whole we might see power back-line rev vanish. Necromancer might be in the same boat because it looks like they intend to remove boon-corruption in its current form and condition removal.

    Scepter is getting hit hard next patch, so it will fall off. (Flat 20% damage reduction all around, and the amount of boons we corrupt will be dropped to two I believe with a lower success chance.) So We might as well kiss our spots goodbye in WvW big blob fights, and roaming you can really do what you want because it doesn't effect anyone but you. Makes me wonder why these changes now, paired with the admission they are working on an entire rework for Death-magic and staff respectively I wonder if they really intend on completely changing what necromancer is/means for guild wars 2.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    I honestly don't understand the nerfs to boon corrupt. They are nerfing core when scourge is the issue. They targeted two core abilities and they are supposed to nerf scourges all round abilities and maybe reduce the circumference of their big aoes and maybe separate the boon corrupt barrier combined.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They have already stated Both death magic and staff are on the workshop table, but neither are ready for their rework. They've been there for a while but they "Will" be getting reworked so I think its more Im going based on what I know. Im not optimistic I think class design right now is completely hot garbage, and nothing has an identity they murdered shroud so a lot of the sustain is gone. Scourage is 100% a better choice than either core or Reaper right now, I think we need a hard rework and I think if Death magic gets reworked as I think it will (More about more minions, and tons of deathly based things. And less about defense as that is what they stated they wished to change.) Then a tank spec would fit nicely to take its place.

    When ANet say that they have some things on the work table but it's not ready, you have to take it with with a grain of salt. After all teaching how to swim to the golem took them quite a few years despite having it on the work table.

  • Necro needs a dueling spec so anything high mobility single target damage.. power preferably

  • Ara the Elegant.6825Ara the Elegant.6825 Member ✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019
    Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    I'd like to see some proper vampirism support, as the current Blood Magic and Rune of Vampirism doesn't quite make the cut. Of course, I'm sure that sort of thing wouldn't be implemented through a new elite spec, but through a Blood Magic rework - ANet doesn't seem to like doing duplicate work.

    I'd like to see the various vampirism traits from Blood Magic all consolidated into one trait with the internal cooldown removed, and then have the trait also lower the player's Power by 300 or so, to compensate for the damage and high survivability you are getting from an unlimited trait like that. There's precedent for traits lowering stats, now, since the most recent rework to Berserker now lowers the Warrior's Toughness by 300 when it increases Power and Condition damage by 300. That sort of stat trade-off is what is needed in order to convince ANet that full-on Vampirism can work within the game's balance framework.

    Rune of Vampirism needs to be reworked (again) to actually siphon some health, not just provide some healing on kill. I'd say, make it something like this:
    1. +25 Healing Power
    2. +35 Toughness or Power?
    3. +50 Healing Power
    4. +65 Toughness or Power?
    5. +100 Healing Power
    6. Steal life on critical (Cooldown: 3 seconds)

    If Rune of Vampirism were to be reworked like the above, it would have the expected synergy with a reworked Blood Magic trait line, in that it would promote the necromancer's viability in combat while wielding daggers (which will almost certainly be reworked soon, and will probably be the weapon of choice for a vamp necro).


    Lacking the above, I'd like to see a Bone Magic trait line introduced as a new elite spec, with sword or hammer being the more obvious choices of weaponry for such a theme. Reason being, we have minion support via Death Magic (also needs heavy rework), vamp support via Blood Magic, condi support via Curses, and so on. Where classes and elite specs are concerned, ANet clearly doesn't like to repeat themselves by developing the same content in slightly different ways, time after time. They're going to look for ways they can expand the class in a new direction, or in a new way. That's what they do. And they haven't done anything with the quintessential necro bone magic theme. That, to me, is the most obvious way for them to go....

    Or maybe Ritualist elite spec. ANet is missing the boat big time by not doing that. Maybe have the elite trait line convert your minion skills into spirits or spectres, with minion traits carrying over. Lots of room to work with that, and the theme fits very well.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019
    Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    While I really want a minion spec and still think back fondly about the GW1 days of running around with a 20-50 unit big minion army and constantly managing their health and resupplying bodies, I just don't think it's going to work well in GW2 and it's not going to fix the issues Necro has in this game.

    Lich I feel like is kind of covered by Reaper. The tankyness by non scaling active defenses has been proven over and over again not to work in this game, especially with the constant powercreep invalidating non scaling defenses even more.
    I have a feeling Lich would just fall into that same trap.

    Shaman+Plague Doctor is kind of what Scourge is, being both either a condition or Support spec, although aside from the Rez gimmick, being bad at both these days.

    In GW2's PvP mobility and active defenses are king, and for PvE Necro is desperately missing a DPS spec that doesn't suffer from the eternal excuse of Necro can't have damage because it's "tanky", has support or can take Epi, keeping the profession forever between useless and niche, even though most other professions have just as good or even more impactful tools that should limit their personal contribution but don't (see Banners and such).
    To that end a shroudless Vampire or Wraith themed (considering life steal historically sucks in GW2) spec that focuses on mobility and active defenses as well as high burst damage seems like it would be the best option for Necro imo.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I really want a minion spec and still think back fondly about the GW1 days of running around with a 20-50 unit big minion army and constantly managing their health and resupplying bodies, I just don't think it's going to work well in GW2 and it's not going to fix the issues Necro has in this game.

    Lich I feel like is kind of covered by Reaper. The tankyness by non scaling active defenses has been proven over and over again not to work in this game, especially with the constant powercreep invalidating non scaling defenses even more.
    I have a feeling Lich would just fall into that same trap.

    Shaman+Plague Doctor is kind of what Scourge is, being both either a condition or Support spec, although aside from the Rez gimmick, being bad at both these days.

    In GW2's PvP mobility and active defenses are king, and for PvE Necro is desperately missing a DPS spec that doesn't suffer from the eternal excuse of Necro can't have damage because it's "tanky", has support or can take Epi, keeping the profession forever between useless and niche, even though most other professions have just as good or even more impactful tools that should limit their personal contribution but don't (see Banners and such).
    To that end a shroudless Vampire or Wraith themed (considering life steal historically sucks in GW2) spec that focuses on mobility and active defenses as well as high burst damage seems like it would be the best option for Necro imo.

    I both agree and disagree. The list wasn't Specs I personally would like, but specs in the general theme that others have requested frequently in the past 5 years. So I ran with that idea. Also, The reason I disagree that a Minion spec couldn't work in GW2 is because I designed one. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

    Check it out. I put a lot of effort into it, and although its not perfect in its design it does give a good general idea of what a minion spec could look like.

    Shaman and Plague Doctor are ones I feel could have some unique space. Scourge is more in line with the GW1 protective spirits ritualist while a Shaman could be more in line with the Restoration Ritualist. They play very differently, although Shaman is low on my list since its not missing tech of the necromancer specifically. Plague doctor is one I've had some interesting ideas around. The return of the Disease condition was always enticing to me, but another idea I had was adding a new condition called Hex which would be influenced by your F1-5 keys and its effect on the foes afflicted with it would change based on which F key you activated at the time. Like a short burst of something happening, like spreading, ramping its damage or mimicking Barbs or Spiteful Spirit from GW1. It was an interesting idea, but never got around to toying with it much as I've had other projects in the works.

    I do very much agree with the Lich spec. I don't see it as adding anything useful to the necromancer that shouldn't just be in a Death magic rework. I could build a spec for it no problem, but it would assume that death isn't going to get touched.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019
    Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I really want a minion spec and still think back fondly about the GW1 days of running around with a 20-50 unit big minion army and constantly managing their health and resupplying bodies, I just don't think it's going to work well in GW2 and it's not going to fix the issues Necro has in this game.

    Lich I feel like is kind of covered by Reaper. The tankyness by non scaling active defenses has been proven over and over again not to work in this game, especially with the constant powercreep invalidating non scaling defenses even more.
    I have a feeling Lich would just fall into that same trap.

    Shaman+Plague Doctor is kind of what Scourge is, being both either a condition or Support spec, although aside from the Rez gimmick, being bad at both these days.

    In GW2's PvP mobility and active defenses are king, and for PvE Necro is desperately missing a DPS spec that doesn't suffer from the eternal excuse of Necro can't have damage because it's "tanky", has support or can take Epi, keeping the profession forever between useless and niche, even though most other professions have just as good or even more impactful tools that should limit their personal contribution but don't (see Banners and such).
    To that end a shroudless Vampire or Wraith themed (considering life steal historically sucks in GW2) spec that focuses on mobility and active defenses as well as high burst damage seems like it would be the best option for Necro imo.

    I both agree and disagree. The list wasn't Specs I personally would like, but specs in the general theme that others have requested frequently in the past 5 years. So I ran with that idea. Also, The reason I disagree that a Minion spec couldn't work in GW2 is because I designed one. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

    Check it out. I put a lot of effort into it, and although its not perfect in its design it does give a good general idea of what a minion spec could look like.

    Shaman and Plague Doctor are ones I feel could have some unique space. Scourge is more in line with the GW1 protective spirits ritualist while a Shaman could be more in line with the Restoration Ritualist. They play very differently, although Shaman is low on my list since its not missing tech of the necromancer specifically. Plague doctor is one I've had some interesting ideas around. The return of the Disease condition was always enticing to me, but another idea I had was adding a new condition called Hex which would be influenced by your F1-5 keys and its effect on the foes afflicted with it would change based on which F key you activated at the time. Like a short burst of something happening, like spreading, ramping its damage or mimicking Barbs or Spiteful Spirit from GW1. It was an interesting idea, but never got around to toying with it much as I've had other projects in the works.

    I do very much agree with the Lich spec. I don't see it as adding anything useful to the necromancer that shouldn't just be in a Death magic rework. I could build a spec for it no problem, but it would assume that death isn't going to get touched.

    I didn't say Minion Master couldn't work in GW2, I said that I don't think it's going to work well or at least is probably not going to fix the existing issues Necro has, i.e. lack of mobility, lack of active defenses and lack of competitive dps spec. At least not in a compelling way.

    Nothing is going to beat Mirage on condi bosses anyway and if a Necro is useful in those scenarios (see SH for Epi) Scourge as condi DPS does that fine.
    For PvP minion master is either going to be a cleave fest or a clutter nightmare worse than mesmers, while probably still lacking viability due to getting focused.
    For WvW again, either a cleave fest, or a lagg fest.

    On top of all of that are the usual AI issues.

    Thematically I really enjoy the idea and I would love to see a decent and interesting to play minion master be viable anywhere in the game (although thematically I personally prefer the traditional bone and flesh minions, rather than shades and spores etc), but tbh Necromancer as a profession has so many gameplay holes while being almost entirely carried by theme, that I don't think adding a thematically strong but mechanically limited spec to the class is the wisest next move (if there is a next move).

    The MM I designed myself a few years ago (before Scourge) and what I had in mind was actually more of a support spec, focusing on healing and buffing minions and player allies alike, while having the advantage of some decent personal dps due to minions as well, making it a great offhealer.
    But we kind of got that gameplay (minus the theme of minions) already with Scourge, so I think it's time to patch some of the downsides of Necro, which really comes down to everything aside from boon hate.

    I also wasn't critiquing the suggestions, be they your ideas or not, nor did I mean any disrespect. I was simply evaluating what I think the professions needs in terms of gemeplay imo, and what would fit that the most.

    If it came down to me, I would like to see all of them in the game as I could design Necro specs all day.
    As of now, I'm just less interested in theme, which Necro has plenty, and more interested in gameplay, where Necro consistently falls short ever since launch.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    While I really want a minion spec and still think back fondly about the GW1 days of running around with a 20-50 unit big minion army and constantly managing their health and resupplying bodies, I just don't think it's going to work well in GW2 and it's not going to fix the issues Necro has in this game.

    Lich I feel like is kind of covered by Reaper. The tankyness by non scaling active defenses has been proven over and over again not to work in this game, especially with the constant powercreep invalidating non scaling defenses even more.
    I have a feeling Lich would just fall into that same trap.

    Shaman+Plague Doctor is kind of what Scourge is, being both either a condition or Support spec, although aside from the Rez gimmick, being bad at both these days.

    In GW2's PvP mobility and active defenses are king, and for PvE Necro is desperately missing a DPS spec that doesn't suffer from the eternal excuse of Necro can't have damage because it's "tanky", has support or can take Epi, keeping the profession forever between useless and niche, even though most other professions have just as good or even more impactful tools that should limit their personal contribution but don't (see Banners and such).
    To that end a shroudless Vampire or Wraith themed (considering life steal historically sucks in GW2) spec that focuses on mobility and active defenses as well as high burst damage seems like it would be the best option for Necro imo.

    I both agree and disagree. The list wasn't Specs I personally would like, but specs in the general theme that others have requested frequently in the past 5 years. So I ran with that idea. Also, The reason I disagree that a Minion spec couldn't work in GW2 is because I designed one. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest

    Check it out. I put a lot of effort into it, and although its not perfect in its design it does give a good general idea of what a minion spec could look like.

    Shaman and Plague Doctor are ones I feel could have some unique space. Scourge is more in line with the GW1 protective spirits ritualist while a Shaman could be more in line with the Restoration Ritualist. They play very differently, although Shaman is low on my list since its not missing tech of the necromancer specifically. Plague doctor is one I've had some interesting ideas around. The return of the Disease condition was always enticing to me, but another idea I had was adding a new condition called Hex which would be influenced by your F1-5 keys and its effect on the foes afflicted with it would change based on which F key you activated at the time. Like a short burst of something happening, like spreading, ramping its damage or mimicking Barbs or Spiteful Spirit from GW1. It was an interesting idea, but never got around to toying with it much as I've had other projects in the works.

    I do very much agree with the Lich spec. I don't see it as adding anything useful to the necromancer that shouldn't just be in a Death magic rework. I could build a spec for it no problem, but it would assume that death isn't going to get touched.

    I didn't say Minion Master couldn't work in GW2, I said that I don't think it's going to work well or at least is probably not going to fix the existing issues Necro has, i.e. lack of mobility, lack of active defenses and lack of competitive dps spec. At least not in a compelling way.

    Nothing is going to beat Mirage on condi bosses anyway and if a Necro is useful in those scenarios (see SH for Epi) Scourge as condi DPS does that fine.
    For PvP minion master is either going to be a cleave fest or a clutter nightmare worse than mesmers, while probably still lacking viability due to getting focused.
    For WvW again, either a cleave fest, or a lagg fest.

    On top of all of that are the usual AI issues.

    Thematically I really enjoy the idea and I would love to see a decent and interesting to play minion master be viable anywhere in the game (although thematically I personally prefer the traditional bone and flesh minions, rather than shades and spores etc), but tbh Necromancer as a profession has so many gameplay holes while being almost entirely carried by theme, that I don't think adding a thematically strong but mechanically limited spec to the class is the wisest next move (if there is a next move).

    The MM I designed myself a few years ago (before Scourge) and what I had in mind was actually more of a support spec, focusing on healing and buffing minions and player allies alike, while having the advantage of some decent personal dps due to minions as well, making it a great offhealer.
    But we kind of got that gameplay (minus the theme of minions) already with Scourge, so I think it's time to patch some of the downsides of Necro, which really comes down to everything aside from boon hate.

    I also wasn't critiquing the suggestions, be they your ideas or not, nor did I mean any disrespect. I was simply evaluating what I think the professions needs in terms of gemeplay imo, and what would fit that the most.

    If it came down to me, I would like to see all of them in the game as I could design Necro specs all day.
    As of now, I'm just less interested in theme, which Necro has plenty, and more interested in gameplay, where Necro consistently falls short ever since launch.

    You're looking at what has been done but not what could be done and using that to influence your call on what could be done which is a bad way to look at it. We didn't have moving aoe blast fields at the start of the game. We didn't have moving platforms or slippery platforms. What is and isn't possible is up to how much effort the dev's want to put into it. And in some cases they've put in a lot. And others they've been noticeably lazy.

  • Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    Vampire, but only if I get to spend health to do damage instead of life force, and then set up a way to regain health that isn't just siphons. It should be about juggling health the entire fight, eg taking more risk for more damage.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Vampire(Bleeds and life steal)

    @Lily.1935 said:
    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

  • Dont think we will actually get anymore Elite Speccs, but if we do something with more def. tools

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

    The necromancer had unmatchable mana management which made him one of the best healer possible in GW1 with an N/Rt build. Blood magic was also quite reliable to support allies while Orders and Marks added damage and various effects to all allies weapon attacks. The different Wells were almost spamable for ton of support (If you think WvW is a mess of aoe, you've never played a well'o'mancer in GW1). And last but not least, the necromancer was the main and best source of mana regen in game allowing the big guns to unleash their damage without worrying for the cost.

    The fact that a lot of the pure necromancer support used to have a cost in blood pushed the necromancer toward low health build which made it easier for them to outheal the blood cost. I don't believe I've ever seen a necromancer going for 600hp in GW1. More often than anything necromancers were going for 55hp and even lower by embracing the death penalty like it was a blessing.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Minion Master(Bomb and zerg)

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    So Here I see a divide. We have players who are unfamiliar with the necromancer's history and sees them as a very tanky profession because that's all they know. And we have the Veteran players from GW1 who see the necromancer as a support class who should be fairly glassy. And these two philosophies are incompatible in GW2's Design. At least part of the minion supporters and the Vampire spec supporters have a common goal of a more supportive, glassy spec that can dish out damage, where as the Lich spec supporters want to double down on what's already there.

    I actually don't remember GW1 necro as being a support but that may have just been my personal playstyle for it. I was a multi-classer in GW1 as well, so I used to play a N/Me Life Transfer necro in PvP, which was intended to spike down single targets, having a copy of the Elite skill Life Transfer via the Mesmer skill, Arcane Echo, in case the original hex was cleared or ran it's course before killing the target, and it had other hexes in its arsenal to punish the opponents trying to heal my spike target.

    The necromancer would be classified as offensive support. They didn't provide much in the way of defense, but they did give quite a bit of utility when it comes to offensive potential from your party.

    Orders are normally the first thing that come to people's mind, such as Order of Vampirism and order of pain, which unfortunately these were nerfed to not function with each other which was devastating to the play style. There were other methods of support they used such as afflictions on with a hex that would healed when striking a foe. The necromancer could also improve adrenaline gain for allies, although this was less frequently taken. Mark of Pain and Bards are two other support hexes which would modify the damage foes took by afflicted armor ignoring damage whenever a foe would be strike with physical damage. The Mark of Pain necromancer was a popular build in Fissure of Woe. Further support are for skills like Blood is power and blood ritual which would improve allies energy regeneration greatly. It was a common reason Monks took Necromancer as a secondary so they could gain access to blood ritual and aid their fellow monk since it couldn't target themselves. But some less common support also exists such as Tainted flesh which made an enchanted ally immune to the disease condition and caused their flesh to spread disease on foes attacking them. As well as the wells which could debilitate foes or aid allies. Well of Blood and well of power would provide health regen and power would provide energy regen. You also had foul feast which would transfer conditions from allies to yourself.

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