Came back after 5-6 years — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Came back after 5-6 years

Didn't buy any expansions. Was wondering why i quit the game in the first place, then i remembered: the relentless mesmer nerfs. At least this time around you guys are actually upset about being nerfed into oblivion. Since the beginning the loudest whiners always got their away with the "balance" changes and Anet is even more incompetent that blizzard when it comes to balancing. It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

Well i'm done here, not returning and not buying the expansion. things are going downhill if they are giving away the base game for free anyway. Good job on ruining a once great and fun class. Nothing good ever lasts.

Comments

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily, the reliance of the Mesmer is nearly complete when it comes to their AI. Rangers can replace them frequently and simply focusing down their resource is generally considered a poor use of time in small skirmishes, while they suffer the same problems as Mesmer in large scale combat.

    In short, it is by the very core design of clones and illusions in general that there have ever been issues with Mesmer. I can concede that several skills may have had a bit more functionality that may have been initially intended, but the profession has also ever been at the mercy of their very design, both offense and damage mitigation being tied to their illusion production, death, or uptime all end up making so many unique elements necessary for the profession which in turn makes them at an "unfair" advantage or disadvantage based on the situation.

    Reducing the variance of the profession would in turn reduce the reliance on any one particular broken thing, rather than how they have handled it to this point.

  • it doesn't matter how much he whines, whiners will do anything to get the other non-main classes nerfed so they can get a bigger dopamine hit after steamrolling you.

  • i know one thing. the nerfs will never stop. I know my old build of condi/toughness is utterly worthless, i can't beat any player 1v1. That's okay, there are always games that reward skillful play out there. PoE is one, DOTA2, planetside 2, etc. Even when my build and hero do get nerfed, it's still fun and the class is never ruined as a whole. The whiner community doesn't exist in those games.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    i know one thing. the nerfs will never stop. I know my old build of condi/toughness is utterly worthless, i can't beat any player 1v1. That's okay, there are always games that reward skillful play out there. PoE is one, DOTA2, planetside 2, etc. Even when my build and hero do get nerfed, it's still fun and the class is never ruined as a whole. The whiner community doesn't exist in those games.

    okay bye o/

  • @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    You beat me to the punch. Though I was going to bring up Elementalists. I went through this whole rigmarole on another thread on another profession forum, wherein somebody else decided that their profession was uniquely discouraged above all else due to their design. The fact is that everybody has their problems.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • mohdhm.8627mohdhm.8627 Member ✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    I already proved on several threads that they do balance based on qq.
    Long story short and since you just came back:
    After PoF, the self-proclaimed "knowledgeable community" (a bunch of clueless gamers that think they know better about mesmer than mesmer mains) said "mirage is op, nerf skill/trait x and it's fine" where X is changing patch after patch, ANerf caved in to every single one of this rants, hence the nerf massacre.
    Meanwhile mesmer mains were saying "you should listen to mesmer community instead and nerf/change x y z, those are the problems", ANerf didn't took any main mesmer nerf suggestion.
    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    yeah I know and i've read your thread. you should have seen the whining when the game first came out and players couldn't tell the difference between clones and the real player. no body should be listened to for balance changes until they have played all the classes.

  • I love playing mesmer. The worst part of the class? The mesmer boards here.

  • @Trollocks.5084 said:
    I love playing mesmer. The worst part of the class? The mesmer boards here.

    sure you do, go to metabattle.com and find a mesmer build. YOU CANT! lmao! the class has been kitten killed. Also, apparently WvW is dead, PvP is dead, man this game went to kitten.

  • @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    You beat me to the punch. Though I was going to bring up Elementalists. I went through this whole rigmarole on another thread on another profession forum, wherein somebody else decided that their profession was uniquely discouraged above all else due to their design. The fact is that everybody has their problems.

    Elementalist can be denied their ability to switch attunements due to AoE?

    Please understand people, we are talking about a resource here, not the fact that they are summons or that no other profession has summons either. Being balanced around having summons is different than those summons being your resource. Elementalist, Ranger, and Necromancer do not rely on having them out to use defenses (like diversion or distortion), and their damage skills are not all scaling with number of illusions out at a time.

    What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).

    You know, I just came from the Necromancer forum. There, they argued that their profession mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. Prior to that, I was on the elementalist forum. There, they argued that their profession mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. Before that it was the Thief forum. There, they argued that their class mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. In the past (pre-HoT), I heard the same stuff from rangers, too. Uniquely discouraged, only my problems matter and not yours, yada yada.

    Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them. This line proves it:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Elementalist can be denied their ability to switch attunements due to AoE?

    This is inexcusable. You know that isn't what I said. You know that isn't what I mean. You know what I am talking about, and you're outright refusing to address it. Everyone else can see what you're doing. This includes Anet, too. You're not getting anywhere with this.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    You beat me to the punch. Though I was going to bring up Elementalists. I went through this whole rigmarole on another thread on another profession forum, wherein somebody else decided that their profession was uniquely discouraged above all else due to their design. The fact is that everybody has their problems.

    Elementalist can be denied their ability to switch attunements due to AoE?

    Please understand people, we are talking about a resource here, not the fact that they are summons or that no other profession has summons either. Being balanced around having summons is different than those summons being your resource. Elementalist, Ranger, and Necromancer do not rely on having them out to use defenses (like diversion or distortion), and their damage skills are not all scaling with number of illusions out at a time.

    What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).

    You know, I just came from the Necromancer forum. There, they argued that their profession mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. Prior to that, I was on the elementalist forum. There, they argued that their profession mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. Before that it was the Thief forum. There, they argued that their class mechanic makes it so they're uniquely discouraged against above all else. In the past (pre-HoT), I heard the same stuff from rangers, too. Uniquely discouraged, only my problems matter and not yours, yada yada.

    Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them. This line proves it:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Elementalist can be denied their ability to switch attunements due to AoE?

    This is inexcusable. You know that isn't what I said. You know that isn't what I mean. You know what I am talking about, and you're outright refusing to address it. Everyone else can see what you're doing. This includes Anet, too. You're not getting anywhere with this.

    1st paragraph: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

    2nd paragraph: Dude, all he did was ask a question. If you don't agree with something he said, all you have to do is explain why.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    1st paragraph: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

    2nd paragraph: Dude, all he did was ask a question. If you don't agree with something he said, all you have to do is explain why.

    You have no idea how logic works. I never said that, because something is probably true, that it is certainly true. That involves making a prediction. That's not what is going on here. Everything that already happened is sitting right here, on the forums. There's no probability about it. Hell, phrase before the quote itself is proof that I'm not appealing to probability. Pay attention now.

    Second, he's being facetious. In doing so, he's proven that nothing good will come from talking to him.

    I was referring to your conclusion about the person you were talking to.
    Person X is probably like most people on the class forums, therefore he is like most people on the class forums.

    You said:
    "Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them. This line proves it:" (asks question)

    A person asking a question on its own doesn't prove anything, and I must admit, I assumed you knew this as it is difficult for me to believe otherwise. Therefore, the prediction I am referring to is the assumption/prediction that he/she is just like everyone else in the class forums who complains about that specific class and is therefore automatically wrong, doesn't have a point, or doesn't look at other class's strengths and weaknesses. Helz, even if he/she does only look at other classes strengths and not their weaknesses, that STILL doesn't mean that they are wrong or don't have a point.

    The dude/gal you were talking to (not the OP) was referring strictly to HIGER VARIANCE, not weather mesmer was over nerfed, not its OP level/how powerful it is, and not weather mesmer is weak compared to other classes.

    If the clones of a Chrono are quickly cleaved in a WvW zerg, that chrono can't use it's class mechanics at all-period.
    On the other hand, in other circumstances, you may be able to keep multiple clones alive to use your class mechanic, or in the case of PvE, keep 3 up permanently to use your class mechanic immediately off of cool down.
    This leads to some massive VARIANCE that is pretty much the difference between having a class mechanic with relatively short cool downs vs basically having an infinite cooldown/not being able to use your class mechanics at all.

    How are you supposed to balance a class that has this much variance? If chrono was simply buffed (just numbers) in it's current state to be as viable as necro and guardian in WvW zergs, do you realize how OP it would be in the other game modes?

    All they are saying is that no other class has this much variance based on their mechanics, leading to balancing problems.
    If you believe a class does, then please explain why instead of just calling a question someone asks inexcusable and not fully explaining.
    Please, that is all I am asking for.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    Did the OP just come all this way back to the forums, after 5 - 6 years, to whine and threaten to leave?

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    1st paragraph: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

    2nd paragraph: Dude, all he did was ask a question. If you don't agree with something he said, all you have to do is explain why.

    You have no idea how logic works. I never said that, because something is probably true, that it is certainly true. That involves making a prediction. That's not what is going on here. Everything that already happened is sitting right here, on the forums. There's no probability about it. Hell, phrase before the quote itself is proof that I'm not appealing to probability. Pay attention now.

    Second, he's being facetious. In doing so, he's proven that nothing good will come from talking to him.

    I was referring to your conclusion about the person you were talking to.
    Person X is probably like most people on the class forums, therefore he is like most people on the class forums.

    You said:
    "Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them. This line proves it:" (asks question)

    A person asking a question on its own doesn't prove anything, and I must admit, I assumed you knew this as it is difficult for me to believe otherwise. Therefore, the prediction I am referring to is the assumption/prediction that he/she is just like everyone else in the class forums who complains about that specific class and is therefore automatically wrong, doesn't have a point, or doesn't look at other class's strengths and weaknesses. Helz, even if he/she does only look at other classes strengths and not their weaknesses, that STILL doesn't mean that they are wrong or don't have a point.

    The dude/gal you were talking to (not the OP) was referring strictly to HIGER VARIANCE, not weather mesmer was over nerfed, not its OP level/how powerful it is, and not weather mesmer is weak compared to other classes.

    If the clones of a Chrono are quickly cleaved in a WvW zerg, that chrono can't use it's class mechanics at all-period.
    On the other hand, in other circumstances, you may be able to keep multiple clones alive to use your class mechanic, or in the case of PvE, keep 3 up permanently to use your class mechanic immediately off of cool down.
    This leads to some massive VARIANCE that is pretty much the difference between having a class mechanic with relatively short cool downs vs basically having an infinite cooldown/not being able to use your class mechanics at all.

    How are you supposed to balance a class that has this much variance? If chrono was simply buffed (just numbers) in it's current state to be as viable as necro and guardian in WvW zergs, do you realize how OP it would be in the other game modes?

    All they are saying is that no other class has this much variance based on their mechanics, leading to balancing problems.
    If you believe a class does, then please explain why instead of just calling a question someone asks inexcusable and not fully explaining.
    Please, that is all I am asking for.

    That's still not how it works. You're just re-phrasing the same incorrect assumption you made in many more words, whilst you are twisting mine. That "question" is no question. It is a statement phrased as a question.

    I am not indebted to research and present somebody else's argument for them in their stead. I'm tired of all those nitpicky fights. If a person doesn't demonstrate a wide perspective and well intentions, then I'm not even going to bother. kitten to any theoretical kernel of truth inside. I could sit back and explain all of the little details that has made me reject this person, but that would be "bothering."

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    1st paragraph: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability

    2nd paragraph: Dude, all he did was ask a question. If you don't agree with something he said, all you have to do is explain why.

    You have no idea how logic works. I never said that, because something is probably true, that it is certainly true. That involves making a prediction. That's not what is going on here. Everything that already happened is sitting right here, on the forums. There's no probability about it. Hell, phrase before the quote itself is proof that I'm not appealing to probability. Pay attention now.

    Second, he's being facetious. In doing so, he's proven that nothing good will come from talking to him.

    I was referring to your conclusion about the person you were talking to.
    Person X is probably like most people on the class forums, therefore he is like most people on the class forums.

    You said:
    "Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them. This line proves it:" (asks question)

    A person asking a question on its own doesn't prove anything, and I must admit, I assumed you knew this as it is difficult for me to believe otherwise. Therefore, the prediction I am referring to is the assumption/prediction that he/she is just like everyone else in the class forums who complains about that specific class and is therefore automatically wrong, doesn't have a point, or doesn't look at other class's strengths and weaknesses. Helz, even if he/she does only look at other classes strengths and not their weaknesses, that STILL doesn't mean that they are wrong or don't have a point.

    The dude/gal you were talking to (not the OP) was referring strictly to HIGER VARIANCE, not weather mesmer was over nerfed, not its OP level/how powerful it is, and not weather mesmer is weak compared to other classes.

    If the clones of a Chrono are quickly cleaved in a WvW zerg, that chrono can't use it's class mechanics at all-period.
    On the other hand, in other circumstances, you may be able to keep multiple clones alive to use your class mechanic, or in the case of PvE, keep 3 up permanently to use your class mechanic immediately off of cool down.
    This leads to some massive VARIANCE that is pretty much the difference between having a class mechanic with relatively short cool downs vs basically having an infinite cooldown/not being able to use your class mechanics at all.

    How are you supposed to balance a class that has this much variance? If chrono was simply buffed (just numbers) in it's current state to be as viable as necro and guardian in WvW zergs, do you realize how OP it would be in the other game modes?

    All they are saying is that no other class has this much variance based on their mechanics, leading to balancing problems.
    If you believe a class does, then please explain why instead of just calling a question someone asks inexcusable and not fully explaining.
    Please, that is all I am asking for.

    That's still not how it works. You're just re-phrasing the same incorrect assumption you made in many more words, whilst you are twisting mine. That "question" is no question. It is a statement phrased as a question.

    I am not indebted to research and present somebody else's argument for them in their stead. I'm tired of all those nitpicky fights. If a person doesn't demonstrate a wide perspective and well intentions, then I'm not even going to bother. kitten to any theoretical kernel of truth inside. I could sit back and explain all of the little details that has made me reject this person, but that would be "bothering."

    Your not yourself when you have no argument, have a snickers.

    I told you exactly what I did, how I interpreted your statement, and why. If you truly think simply stating the question, "Elementalist can be denied their ability to switch attunements due to AoE?" means this:

    "Seems to be a running theme. Everyone thinks that they're Anets whipping boy. They always do the same thing: provide an extremely narrow view that only looks at their weaknesses and not their strengths, and only looks at the strengths of other classes and not their weaknesses. They always say that everyone is out to get them, and nobody is out there for them. You're one of them."

    Then obviously we aren't going to find any ground here. However, before you leave, I would take one last good hard look at that statement you wrote, because it works both ways.

    No wonder this game is going to kitten.
    Have a good day,

  • @mohdhm.8627 said:

    @Trollocks.5084 said:
    I love playing mesmer. The worst part of the class? The mesmer boards here.

    sure you do, go to metabattle.com and find a mesmer build. YOU CANT! lmao! the class has been kitten killed. Also, apparently WvW is dead, PvP is dead, man this game went to kitten.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer

    Oh no... I found them... whatever did I do?

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    All they are saying is that no other class has this much variance based on their mechanics, leading to balancing problems.

    Thanks for stating this so eloquently.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 I have no need to argue with you, as I am not trying to convince you of what you seem to think I am. My statements point out the core issue and show how they are not the same issue present in other profession forums. Neither am I stating that Mesmer is underpowered or overpowered, but that by design they have an inherent flaw that makes balancing them like other professions an inevitable failure to solve the problem. Reducing the variance by solving the resource denial issue would actually solve quite a bit of the problems that other professions have with what to expect from a Mesmer. You may try being less aggressive towards individuals, as it is fine to disagree with others, but making attacks on them as individuals is not proving your point (that there are definitely issues with every profession, some much easier to tackle than others).

    Mesmer issues cannot be solved by tuning their numbers like other professions because of the unreliability of their resource in given situations. Solve the core issue of their resource control and management and the rest can then actually be numerically tuned, leave it as is and from one game situation to the next the difference in variance of reliability of resource will always remain and cause problems with balance. Furthermore, all other changes numerically will continue to remain ineffective at resolving the pleas of the masses to fix (nerf) Mesmer.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    What skills/traits did they revert?

    The degenerate

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    What skills/traits did they revert?

    Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    What skills/traits did they revert?

    Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%

    I'm absolutely sure there was not a single skill/trait revert concerning mirage.

    The degenerate

  • @mohdhm.8627 said:

    @Trollocks.5084 said:
    I love playing mesmer. The worst part of the class? The mesmer boards here.

    sure you do, go to metabattle.com and find a mesmer build. YOU CANT! lmao! the class has been kitten killed. Also, apparently WvW is dead, PvP is dead, man this game went to kitten.

    http://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    What skills/traits did they revert?

    Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%

    I'm absolutely sure there was not a single skill/trait revert concerning mirage.

    Axe confusion to torment and then back to confusion. I don't know if you can call that a full reversion, but.....

  • @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mohdhm.8627 said:
    It's almost as if these people don't play their own games yet rely on whiner feedback.

    To add to that they never acknowledge a mistake and never revert those stupid nerfs.

    Well.....they nerfed condi mirage and then reverted most of it. I remember that as thats what got me to stop playing condi mirage and look into DPS

    What skills/traits did they revert?

    Its been a while since, however iirc it was condi applications/condi damage on the weapons. May have included the DoT on the shatter as well but I dont remember 100%

    I'm absolutely sure there was not a single skill/trait revert concerning mirage.

    Axe confusion to torment and then back to confusion. I don't know if you can call that a full reversion, but.....

    Good thing I didnt say a full reversion ;)

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  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?

    If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue".
    ...or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.

    What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).

    If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.


    @mohdhm.8627 you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?

    If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue".
    ...or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.

    Our point of contestation is that of situational viability. In a duel or small scale, pulling off max clone shatters is not usually an issue, it is when Zergs and group combat takes place and AoE can blanket an area that keeps a Mesmer from functioning at even half capacity that an issue is revealed. Either way, the solution to beating a Mesmer is keeping enough hard hitting AoE down at all times, and that means beating one usually revolves around denial of resource, as opposed to actually outplaying their skills through effective timing of defensive skills.

    What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).

    If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.

    I am saying that the majority of players fail to see WHY a Mesmer was too strong in so many situations. In fact, that was exactly why they did not hit them with nerfs in the way that many have desired, because the general populace does not understand that Mesmer has to have higher maximum output potential because their resource and damage can be destroyed. The result is that because Mesmer clones can be killed, shatters must apply more than what the devs might allot for a skill usually, because a large portion of the time the shatter may not even land (because clones are killed, and not because of normal damage prevention methods).


    @mohdhm.8627 you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting.

    When one steps away from something for awhile, when they come back their new perspective may allow them to see th8ngs that others who have been immersed the entire time may miss completely.

    Justifying the issues of Mesmer by indicating inferiority of skill is poor taste and represents a lack of strong argument. The problem sources from the core functionality of Mesmers’ illusions (clones and phantasms), and not from numbers tuning, change those to be consistent with other profession resources and damage sources (not separate stats and failing to activate sigil sand runes) then numbers tuning can commence.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    That is because mesmer was busted as hell and needed to be nerfed a lot to bring it into balance. It is only now that Mesmer is either at or below the level of most classes.

    Mesmer has EVER been balanced around the idea of higher variance due to their resource being both ONLY in combat AND destroyable. No other profession is punished by their own resource so heavily,

    No other? Necromancers want a word with you.

    OP...if you haven't been playing for 6 years....why are you complaining about mesmer nerfs? You know nothing about the class anymore.

    Necromancer’s life force bar can be destroyed before it even gets to be used? Interesting, I was pretty sure there is opportunity to use it before it gets destroyed. Can AoE keep a Necromancer from being able to even use their resource at all?

    If you consistently have your resource "destroyed before you can use it at all" then you're just a bad mesmer. In other words: "l2p issue".
    ...or maybe you're just trying to draw a purely hypothetical situation in order to try and have any point at all.

    Our point of contestation is that of situational viability. In a duel or small scale, pulling off max clone shatters is not usually an issue, it is when Zergs and group combat takes place and AoE can blanket an area that keeps a Mesmer from functioning at even half capacity that an issue is revealed. Either way, the solution to beating a Mesmer is keeping enough hard hitting AoE down at all times, and that means beating one usually revolves around denial of resource, as opposed to actually outplaying their skills through effective timing of defensive skills.

    What we as a Mesmer community may desire is almost always ignored, because the non Mesmer community invariably cries about symptoms that have always been a result of the balance point of the profession (which forces greater variance and less reliability).

    If you fail to admit that mesmer was simply too strong for quite some time without being touched by patches then you're lying to yourself as much as you're lying to the others. Some aspects might have been over-nerfed, but claiming that you (as a class) are being consistently bullied with nerfs is pretty laughable.

    I am saying that the majority of players fail to see WHY a Mesmer was too strong in so many situations. In fact, that was exactly why they did not hit them with nerfs in the way that many have desired, because the general populace does not understand that Mesmer has to have higher maximum output potential because their resource and damage can be destroyed. The result is that because Mesmer clones can be killed, shatters must apply more than what the devs might allot for a skill usually, because a large portion of the time the shatter may not even land (because clones are killed, and not because of normal damage prevention methods).

    No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.


    @mohdhm.8627 you came back to the game after 5-6 years and you feel you're ready to throw a balance judgment on anything that happened in the game during that time? That's... pretty interesting.

    When one steps away from something for awhile, when they come back their new perspective may allow them to see th8ngs that others who have been immersed the entire time may miss completely.

    No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:
    No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.

    No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.

    This contrarian thinking is not productive. You choose to ignore the views of someone new who notes the same things that others have noted, who asks for clarity, and when presented you simply deny the situation completely. Also, you misuse the term overperform, which would indicate that Mesmer has better representation and is numerically superior to other professions in most or all situations.

    The inverse of your first statement here would simply be:

    "No, the class shouldn't be allowed to underperform because it does excel at some situations."

    This is the point most Mesmer tend to make actually, because the profession as a whole is treated as doing too much of everything only because it seems that way in a duel against a lesser skilled opponent. Good players using a strong build always provide a good challenge to me as a Mesmer, even in duels... you may say that it sounds like a l2p issue if someone is having issues dueling a Mesmer.

    Alternatively, as I have continually pointed out in this and other threads... Mesmer needs their balanced shifted away from a reliance on a destroyable resource so that they can be balanced around reliable, consistent sources of damage, utility, and defense tools. In short, if the elements of Mesmer resources were reliable, as is the case for every other profession, then the balance you and I both desire could be achieved through simple numbers tuning.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.

    No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.

    This contrarian thinking is not productive.

    Pointing out basic lack of logic in your pseudo-arguments is far from being a contrarian. Someone that played for half a year and then came back after 6 years of changes and additions sure is a reliable source of critique regarding the balance because of his uniquely fresh view on the matter, ok. Feel free to think whatever you want, it just looks like a bad bait.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    No, the class shouldn't be allowed to overperform because it doesn't excell at some situations.

    No, saying that a newcommer (because that's what he is after not following the game for the past 6 years, when it's out for 7) has a good grasp of the game and its balance because of a "fresh perspective" is some A-grade bullkitten no matter what colors you'll try to paint it in.

    This contrarian thinking is not productive.

    Pointing out basic lack of logic in your pseudo-arguments is far from being a contrarian. Someone that played for half a year and then came back after 6 years of changes and additions sure is a reliable source of critique regarding the balance because of his uniquely fresh view on the matter, ok. Feel free to think whatever you want, it just looks like a bad bait.

    I think logic does not mean what you think it means... if you couldn’t follow a given point, it may be that you failed to make the connection between elements, but not asking for clarity and disregarding a statement flatly is exactly being contrary for the sheer purpose of having an objection and not to actually further your own argument. Feel free to think whatever you want, but there is no need to live under a bridge.

    Your argument revolves around the assertion that your statement is fact, without providing any kind of logical backing. It is based solely on your own viewpoint and assessment of what balance, performance, and representation mean, and refuses to accept any data that may point to other possibilities. It is a known that assessment of a situation from an outside source or someone not in or on a project is an excellent way to discover information that many working on the project are too close to notice. This is why consultants exist, people who are versed and knowledgeable in game design or play know how to analyze a game for inherent issues in design. Often even an ignorant person will recognize issues subconsciously even if they cannot explain why. This is true in artwork as well, people know when they like or dislike something even if they cannot voice it in a verbose and clear manner... you can disregard what I say, but it doesn’t make you correct.