The Elephant in the balance room: How Cheese has evolved to hurt GW2 PvP more than balance. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Elephant in the balance room: How Cheese has evolved to hurt GW2 PvP more than balance.

Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 4, 2019 in PVP

What if I told you that one simple change in balance philosophy could save this game? ( TL;DR version at the bottom )

Many of us may have noticed through the years that half the time when people complain about balance, they are actually complaining more about cheese than what is seriously overpowered in an organized team. This happens in a lot of games when it comes to PvP. And you know what? When it comes to GW2, these people are right. Cheese in GW2 seems to reach increasing heights every balance patch, with classes being nerfed around the cheese rather than just...nerfing the cheese. When you nerf everything except the cheese, that just makes it so pretty soon all that is left is cheese. And when the game is cheese, the game dies.

For instance, here is a demonstration of how a build can be "balanced" but still very bad for the game: Think of a hypothetical elite specialization in the future, for humors sake we will call this specialization "Cheeselord". Upon selecting cheeselord as your spec, you lose access to all abilities except for a new skill called "Cheesedoken" and cannot move from your spawn, effectively turning the match into a 4v5 for your team. Cheesedoken has a 45 second cooldown, and upon activation randomly kills a player on the enemy team. Cheesedoken has no animation, infinite range, no cast time, and cannot be countered or avoided in any way- it just instantly places one player on the other team into a defeated state regardless of what they are doing.

Technically, Cheeselord would likely sit as a mid tier build at best. But I guarantee players would complain up a storm if something like this was unironically implemented into the game. Why? Because people play GW2 to enjoy its combat system and mechanics. A braindead build that does nothing but get kills from a safezone is not actually playing the game, it is just farming and being bad. Pretty much the only people playing Cheeselord would be trolls, bots, or people looking to farm without investment. But the biggest reason for the complaints would be that dying to it would feel like losing to a cheater. The players who randomly dies to Cheesedoken did not make any mistake in order to receive the death, and there would be effectively zero difference between a legendary ranked Cheeselord vs a Bronze ranked one other than pure dumb luck.

Before I go any further, it's important to define cheese. Lots of people out there believe that cheese is subjective, or ask what cheese even is. It's very simple: Cheese is any game mechanic which allows players to ignore active counterplay. Furthermore, when it comes to GW2 cheese can be broken into 6 categories:

1. Godmode
The first and most easily identifiable type of cheese is godmode - or being immune to most damage while still having full access to the rest of your kit. This an inherently busted game mechanic in that it completely removes all interactivity for the other player for the duration of the godmode granting ability. The only viable counterplay to a build that is centered around chaining godmode skills together is to either out sustain with your own cheese or run away, neither of which are true counters. Path of Fire added a ton of this to the game: almost every class gets a barrier or block that can be used while casting other skills, and we even got a spec that turns every dodge into a godmode activation. It has gotten out of hand.
2. Unavoidable
This is when a skill cannot be reasonably avoided. Having too many abilities that are instant cast and have no animation completely negates a game designed around dodging and blocking animations. It instead forces the game into prediction, which is bad because it only works if people are playing predictably AKA spamming. Counterplay that is dependent on a player being bad is not true counterplay. Unblockable oneshot from stealth builds also fall under this problem. When builds have too much unavoidable damage, it takes away the entire watching for animations and intelligently dodging part of the game- replacing it with randomly dodging and randomly spamming skills until one lands.
3. Excessive Passive reliance
Passives by themselves aren't a huge problem, but when combined with any of the other problems on this list it creates a scenario where counterplay cannot reasonably occur because too much is hidden from the player. Example: Passive godmode/get out of jail free is notoriously hated by all both top and casual players alike. There are also a few passive unavoidable conditions where all your abilities randomly add cover conditions on the next attack that hits... not your next attack, the next one that hits meaning that even if avoided the passive will simply proc on the next hit. Such interactivity. Very skill based gameplay. Much wow.
4. Ridiculous CC immunity uptime.
Having some CC immunity is good to allow people to anticipate an incoming stun, especially from a zerg since without stunbreaks and anti-CC any large fight quickly degenerates into "Everyone poop on the stunned guy". The problem comes when you have skills that instantly give absurd amount of stability on demand, and on a very low cooldown to the point where a person can upkeep stability with 50%+ uptime. This enables a very uninteractive and mindless playstyle of "Pop stab, spam 12345 without fear of being interrupted". When a build can dump its entire skillbar while CC immune, that's not good for the game. Interrupts should be a viable counterplay to mindless spam, and being able to dump everything while CC immune negates this entirely while actively encouraging spammy gameplay.
5. Too much sustain / resets
Having so much sustain that you can just ignore what your opponent is doing creates a similar problem to Godmode. This is why bunker metas are so universally hated and was arguably the straw that broke the camels back for GW esports. When you have to 1v2 a build to kill it, it's way too easy to just infinitely cheese a point and holy hell does that amount to the most boring GG ever. Having a lot of stealth access creates a similar problem - there are many builds that can just stealth forever and never die. This actually is more of an issue in WvW than conquest, but it's important to mention as it has the similar problem in that it's impossible to kill 1v1 unless a serious mistake is made.
6. Win buttons
This is when a skill is able to just do everything at once. A good example for this would be Mirage sword ambush: Dodge, Mobility, damage, CC, leap finisher. Counterplay and decision making means very little in the face of abilities that just do everything. Why think about counterplay when you can just press a button that does it all?

It's also important to point out that a small amount of cheese is not necessarily bad. Some cheese is actually essential as it gives classes a niche to fill and also allows for new players to have easier access to PvP, as cheese builds tend to usually require less skill to play. The problems start to occur when a class has access to a spec that is centered around 3 or more of the above issues. You end up with a "Build Wars" scenario where spec matters in certain matchups 100x more than player competency.

Looking at all that makes up cheese, it can start to paint a picture that justifies certain balance changes that have been long overdue:

-Skills like Elixer U and Dolyak Stance should see a nerf. Holos and Soulbeast both are extremely spam happy specs to play due to their absurd CC immunity uptime. Every Holosmith and their mom and their moms mom and their moms moms mom does the same thing: Elixer U, Rifle CC, Spam forge skills, maybe add a photon wall if you care enough, did you win the fight? Yes- gg! No- Elixer S reset fight with healing turret. Every soulbeast uses Dolyak stance with passives to increase the stability to absurd duration +12 stacks or more and then just freecast. This is not skillful gameplay.
-Stop nerfing Mirage. Instead, slate it for a rework. The current design of condi mirage hits all 6 issues. Deals passive unavoidable damage from clones while spamming instant cast skills, rotating godmodes, ignoring CC due to being able to still use half their kit while CCed, sustaining for days, and riding the infinite horizon crutch to turn every dodge into combined godmode+win button, gaining free passive sustain for days. It's like the spec was intentionally designed to be as braindead to fight against as possible. Mirage doesn't need any more random nerfs it needs to be sent back to the drawing board.
-give better ways to deal with the PoF condi powercreep Since Path of fire release condis have seen a sort of passive-cover creep where nearly all skills automatically get 2-3 cover conditions added to it. A lot of these could see a nerf, but honestly it isn't too bad at least in WvW due to one simple change: Sigil of cleansing removing 3 condis. Consider bringing this version to PvP as PvP still has the problem of PoF powercreep without the counter. It's also the fairest way to fix the problem since every class has access to it.
-Firebrand has absurd amounts of sustain and has been almost mandatory in any organized team that wants to win because of it. Tons of passive blocks. Tons of stability. Boonspam for days. A good firebrand is unkillable and a pro firebrand makes himself +1 team member unkillable.
-Stealth works in GW2 in such a way that seriously bugs out depending on latency and often desyncs animations for 1/2 a second after revealing. You can even precast a ton of skills while stealthed and they will all hit before your model even renders on other players screens. Anets current model of fixing this problem is to add revealed on cast to certain skills - while this is a good fix that should be added to more heavy hitters, a better way would be to just add better counters to stealth. There are a lot of underpowered abilities in the game that are due for a buff, and just adding "Reveals nearby enemies 600 range" to a few utilities for every class would go a long way.

And these suggestions are just a small handful of what could be done. The cheese-creep in GW2 has gone on for long enough that it is pervasive throughout the game and exists in some form in every spec.

On a final note: Scourge is a good example of how removing cheese but leaving the skills strong can lead to the build remaining viable with fewer complaints. Release scourge was maximum cheese when shade skills had no animation and no windup time, people hated its guts as you would just randomly get instantly hit with 6+ condis. Now that shades and scourge F1s have warning symbols on them, they can be realistically twitch-dodged as players can actually see what the heck is hitting them. The result is that Scourge is still meta, but doesn't receive anywhere near 1/4th the hate it used to get. If this same logic was applied to other busted specs, the game would be in a much better state.

TL;DR: Anet please start considering counterplay and interactive gameplay into your balance decisions more often. The current trend of not doing so is putting the excellent combat system GW2 has to waste and making people quit the game.

<1

Comments

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    +10

    Great post

  • CC spam is another big issue with this game. I think it's been an issue since beta but nothing has really changed to fix it. CC needs to work like it does in GW1, where you have to wait until the effect wears off before you can CC them again. That required and rewarded proper timing.

  • I thought cheese and meta are synonymous?
    hur hur hur.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    Wait, stealth is supposed to desync and render you after you are revealed? Why doesnt that ever happen to the Mesmers I face. Jokes aside, the problem with stealth isnt its use in combat, which is the only time the reveal skills are useful (you cant use them to reveal an enemy you dont know is even there). The problem with stealth is its use out of combat. I.E., oneshotting an enemy who isnt even aware of your presence, or running away from an enemy who is. In-combat stealth is already weak. Less so for Mesmers who combines with clones that give just that split second of disorientation you need to utilize it, but there is a reason why the only thief build that actively uses stealth in fights sucks.

  • KurokawaKazuma.8641KurokawaKazuma.8641 Member ✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    -Stop nerfing Mirage. Instead, slate it for a rework. The current design of condi mirage hits all 6 issues. Deals passive unavoidable damage from clones while spamming instant cast skills, rotating godmodes, ignoring CC due to being able to still use half their kit while CCed, sustaining for days, and riding the infinite horizon crutch to turn every dodge into combined godmode+win button, gaining free passive sustain for days. It's like the spec was intentionally designed to be as braindead to fight against as possible. Mirage doesn't need any more random nerfs it needs to be sent back to the drawing board.

    "omg if u still die to mirage playing core engi u need to l2p"

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    What if I told you that one simple change in balance philosophy could save this game? ( TL;DR version at the bottom )

    Many of us may have noticed through the years that half the time when people complain about balance, they are actually complaining more about cheese than what is seriously overpowered in an organized team. This happens in a lot of games when it comes to PvP. And you know what? When it comes to GW2, these people are right. Cheese in GW2 seems to reach increasing heights every balance patch, with classes being nerfed around the cheese rather than just...nerfing the cheese. When you nerf everything except the cheese, that just makes it so pretty soon all that is left is cheese. And when the game is cheese, the game dies.

    For instance, here is a demonstration of how a build can be "balanced" but still very bad for the game: Think of a hypothetical elite specialization in the future, for humors sake we will call this specialization "Cheeselord". Upon selecting cheeselord as your spec, you lose access to all abilities except for a new skill called "Cheesedoken" and cannot move from your spawn, effectively turning the match into a 4v5 for your team. Cheesedoken has a 45 second cooldown, and upon activation randomly kills a player on the enemy team. Cheesedoken has no animation, infinite range, no cast time, and cannot be countered or avoided in any way- it just instantly places one player on the other team into a defeated state regardless of what they are doing.

    Technically, Cheeselord would likely sit as a mid tier build at best. But I guarantee players would complain up a storm if something like this was unironically implemented into the game. Why? Because people play GW2 to enjoy its combat system and mechanics. A braindead build that does nothing but get kills from a safezone is not actually playing the game, it is just farming and being bad. Pretty much the only people playing Cheeselord would be trolls, bots, or people looking to farm without investment. But the biggest reason for the complaints would be that dying to it would feel like losing to a cheater. The players who randomly dies to Cheesedoken did not make any mistake in order to receive the death, and there would be effectively zero difference between a legendary ranked Cheeselord vs a Bronze ranked one other than pure dumb luck.

    Before I go any further, it's important to define cheese. Lots of people out there believe that cheese is subjective, or ask what cheese even is. It's very simple: Cheese is any game mechanic which allows players to ignore active counterplay. Furthermore, when it comes to GW2 cheese can be broken into 6 categories:

    1. Godmode
    The first and most easily identifiable type of cheese is godmode - or being immune to most damage while still having full access to the rest of you kit. This an inherently busted game mechanic in that it completely removes all interactivity for the other player for the duration of the godmode granting ability. The only viable counterplay to a build that is centered around chaining godmode skills together is to either out sustain with your own cheese or run away, neither of which are true counters. Path of Fire added a ton of this to the game: almost every class gets a barrier or block that can be used while casting other skills, and we even got a spec that turns every dodge into a godmode activation. It has gotten out of hand.
    2. Unavoidable
    This is when a skill cannot be reasonably avoided. Having too many abilities that are instant cast and have no animation completely negates a game designed around dodging and blocking animations. It instead forces the game into prediction, which is bad because it only works if people are playing predictably AKA spamming. Counterplay that is dependent on a player being bad is not true counterplay. Unblockable oneshot from stealth builds also fall under this problem. When builds have too much unavoidable damage, it takes away the entire watching for animations and intelligently dodging part of the game- replacing it with randomly dodging and randomly spamming skills until one lands.
    3. Excessive Passive reliance
    Passives by themselves aren't a huge problem, but when combined with any of the other problems on this list it creates a scenario where counterplay cannot reasonably occur because too much is hidden from the player. Example: Passive godmode/get out of jail free is notoriously hated by all both top and casual players alike. There are also a few passive unavoidable conditions where all your abilities randomly add cover conditions on the next attack that hits... not your next attack, the next one that hits meaning that even if avoided the passive will simply proc on the next hit. Such interactivity. Very skill based gameplay. Much wow.
    4. Ridiculous CC immunity uptime.
    Having some CC immunity is good to allow people to anticipate an incoming stun, especially from a zerg since without stunbreaks and anti-CC any large fight quickly degenerates into "Everyone poop on the stunned guy". The problem comes when you have skills that instantly give absurd amount of stability on demand, and on a very low cooldown to the point where a person can upkeep stability with 50%+ uptime. This enables a very uninteractive and mindless playstyle of "Pop stab, spam 12345 without fear of being interrupted". When a build can dump its entire skillbar while CC immune, that's not good for the game. Interrupts should be a viable counterplay to mindless spam, and being able to dump everything while CC immune negates this entirely while actively encouraging spammy gameplay.
    5. Too much sustain / resets
    Having so much sustain that you can just ignore what your opponent is doing creates a similar problem to Godmode. This is why bunker metas are so universally hated and was arguably the straw that broke the camels back for GW esports. When you have to 1v2 a build to kill it, it's way too easy to just infinitely cheese a point and holy hell does that amount to the most boring GG ever. Having a lot of stealth access creates a similar problem - there are many builds that can just stealth forever and never die. This actually is more of an issue in WvW than conquest, but it's important to mention as it has the similar problem in that it's impossible to kill 1v1 unless a serious mistake is made.
    6. Win buttons
    This is when a skill is able to just do everything at once. A good example for this would be Mirage sword ambush: Dodge, Mobility, damage, CC, leap finisher. Counterplay and decision making means very little in the face of abilities that just do everything. Why think about counterplay when you can just press a button that does it all?

    It's also important to point out that a small amount of cheese is not necessarily bad. Some cheese is actually essential as it gives classes a niche to fill and also allows for new players to have easier access to PvP, as cheese builds tend to usually require less skill to play. The problems start to occur when a class has access to a spec that is centered around 3 or more of the above issues. You end up with a "Build Wars" scenario where spec matters in certain matchups 100x more than player competency.

    Looking at all that makes up cheese, it can start to paint a picture that justifies certain balance changes that have been long overdue:

    -Skills like Elixer U and Dolyak Stance should see a nerf. Holos and Soulbeast both are extremely spam happy specs to play due to their absurd CC immunity uptime. Every Holosmith and their mom and their moms mom and their moms moms mom does the same thing: Elixer U, Rifle CC, Spam forge skills, maybe add a photon wall if you care enough, did you win the fight? Yes- gg! No- Elixer S reset fight with healing turret. Every soulbeast uses Dolyak stance with passives to increase the stability to absurd duration +12 stacks or more and then just freecast. This is not skillful gameplay.
    -Stop nerfing Mirage. Instead, slate it for a rework. The current design of condi mirage hits all 6 issues. Deals passive unavoidable damage from clones while spamming instant cast skills, rotating godmodes, ignoring CC due to being able to still use half their kit while CCed, sustaining for days, and riding the infinite horizon crutch to turn every dodge into combined godmode+win button, gaining free passive sustain for days. It's like the spec was intentionally designed to be as braindead to fight against as possible. Mirage doesn't need any more random nerfs it needs to be sent back to the drawing board.
    -give better ways to deal with the PoF condi powercreep Since Path of fire release condis have seen a sort of passive-cover creep where nearly all skills automatically get 2-3 cover conditions added to it. A lot of these could see a nerf, but honestly it isn't too bad at least in WvW due to one simple change: Sigil of cleansing removing 3 condis. Consider bringing this version to PvP as PvP still has the problem of PoF powercreep without the counter. It's also the fairest way to fix the problem since every class has access to it.
    -Firebrand has absurd amounts of sustain and has been almost mandatory in any organized team that wants to win because of it. Tons of passive blocks. Tons of stability. Boonspam for days. A good firebrand is unkillable and a pro firebrand makes himself +1 team member unkillable.
    -Stealth works in GW2 in such a way that seriously bugs out depending on latency and often desyncs animations for 1/2 a second after revealing. You can even precast a ton of skills while stealthed and they will all hit before your model even renders on other players screens. Anets current model of fixing this problem is to add revealed on cast to certain skills - while this is a good fix that should be added to more heavy hitters, a better way would be to just add better counters to stealth. There are a lot of underpowered abilities in the game that are due for a buff, and just adding "Reveals nearby enemies 600 range" to a few utilities for every class would go a long way.

    And these suggestions are just a small handful of what could be done. The cheese-creep in GW2 has gone on for long enough that it is pervasive throughout the game and exists in some form in every spec.

    On a final note: Scourge is a good example of how removing cheese but leaving the skills strong can lead to the build remaining viable with fewer complaints. Release scourge was maximum cheese when shade skills had no animation and no windup time, people hated its guts as you would just randomly get instantly hit with 6+ condis. Now that shades and scourge F1s have warning symbols on them, they can be realistically twitch-dodged as players can actually see what the heck is hitting them. The result is that Scourge is still meta, but doesn't receive anywhere near 1/4th the hate it used to get. If this same logic was applied to other busted specs, the game would be in a much better state.

    TL;DR: Anet please start considering counterplay and interactive gameplay into your balance decisions more often. The current trend of not doing so is putting the excellent combat system GW2 has to waste and making people quit the game.

    I'm sry but u state the current state of slb to be in the same league as holo as far as being OP for dueling etc? Only complaints about slb since the days after boonbeast got its nerfs are and were regarding sic em and other dps multipliers on slb and slb alone as well as the range said dps can be done. There's very few people destroying people with slb these days inside of melee range and usually even at range their pretty easy to deal with these days. U bring up how scourge had changed to successfully balance it? Seriously? U think scourge is balanced in wvw but fb isnt ok? Their both busted. I agree with ur initial assessment tho this game has become far more about building the cheesiest build on the cheesiest specs regardless of whether it takes skill to play or not as in the end people want the satisfaction of kills. Look at DE permastealth for example,the old sic em build, etc etc people care little about using a class that takes skill, build diversity and or skill variety as the majority have shown. So it's not all on arenet as players find and seek out these builds to utilize as more of a priority than how diverse a class Is or how fun a class is, majority picks the easiest cheesiest way to get kills. Just the way it is and way it probably will always be lol. People want kills more than anything else. Yes anet should defenitly not have added so many skills that could be potentially exploited or with little counterplay but at the same time do people not run to those skills and builds?

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We can make this very simple. Go into unranked PvP and you'll see the definition of cheese. Soulbeast still running one shot builds, two holosmith autos slicing off almost all of my health, mirage/mesmer still IMMUNE to most range damage, thief aoes throwing five condis if they aren't cleansed, Weaver stacking 13 burns now, Spellbreaker running through a multitude of people and being non-CCable, immbolized, Reaper running at the speeds of trucks, scourges standing their stupid barrier circles while glueing their one button down because hey LOOKIT me barrier.

    EVERY class has somehow disgustingly became cheesey. Which is pretty appalling because yesterday, for me and my duos and trios, have been people cheesing good players with minimal effort because some classes just have better get out of jail cards compared to be others. It's sad. I really do want to love PvP, but dear god how it's gotten so toxic now that I find no love in ANY of the classes.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I thought cheese and meta are synonymous?
    hur hur hur.

    Sprinkle a little meta cheese on pizza or salad

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I thought cheese and meta are synonymous?
    hur hur hur.

    Sprinkle a little meta cheese on pizza or salad

    with broccoli, for nutrition.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Cheese, best served with whine... and crackers!

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ^That's also a good one. Although it's not just about "Skill to play" but about Anet ignoring issues that effectively remove the combat system from the game.

    There's no point in designing a game engine and PvP system around dodging and blocking animations, only to keep adding things that make doing so irrelevant.

    Take the recent buff to fire weaver with Sunspot and Burning Rage. There were many ways they could buff weaver, such as adding more damage to its telegraphed attacks or making dual attacks while attuned to fire inflict burning. But out of all the ways, they did it with a passive that inflicts an instant cast AoE burn with zero animation on it. As far as balance goes, technically what they did does indeed check the balance checkbox. But as far as gameplay and class design is concerned, It's like counterplay and interaction aren't even a factor in their decisions.

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    Arenanet is casual, incopetent or just ineffective, and always trying to reinvent the wheel.

    Blizzard sticks to holy-3-nity. They even FORCED a tank+heal+dps role lock in overwatch just now, AFTER 3 years of saying AND MARKETING the game as YOU CAN PLAY ANY HERO ANYTIME. they listened, watched the toxic reality, and they changed their minds to try fixing the problems.

    Arenanet..... lul.
    Even in PVP Esport dream times, it was clear that casual PVE has priority over PVP.
    Risk / reward , counterplay and top-down balance, those are principles of competitive games.
    Guildwars is a game "for fun".
    Think about, in 7 years of every communication, they use guidelines like "are you having fun" "does this feel thematic for class" "that would upset the casual or PVE side of game" when discussing with us. Their priority is not to make something balanced with hightier gameplay, theyre making a wow factor movie experience.

    Their balance meetings is a group of silver rated PVEers, all brainstorming on what would be cool. Then they spin teapots mystic build generator to create the most non meta build that never sees playtime, then they those 2 silver devs go duel on keep midpoint to see what needs buffs. Oh and theyre skillclickers ofc.
    THAT is the gw2 balance team, and theyre trying to keep 3 different gamemodes balanced as 1.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    -Stealth works in GW2 in such a way that seriously bugs out depending on latency and often desyncs animations for 1/2 a second after revealing. You can even precast a ton of skills while stealthed and they will all hit before your model even renders on other players screens. Anets current model of fixing this problem is to add revealed on cast to certain skills - while this is a good fix that should be added to more heavy hitters, a better way would be to just add better counters to stealth. There are a lot of underpowered abilities in the game that are due for a buff, and just adding "Reveals nearby enemies 600 range" to a few utilities for every class would go a long way.

    Please... no more Revealed skills unless Thieves are given some form of immunity to them. Stealth Thieves are too squishy to survive without the ability to hide, and most don't hit that hard (relatively speaking) even from Stealth. Not only is a Thief in Stealth giving up control of a point in Conquest, but being locked out of Stealth negates an entire traitline.

    Not only can Thieves not contest a point in Stealth, but they cannot counter Stealth either... they have no Revealing skills. So they are just as at risk of other Stealthed foes as anyone else, perhaps even more so. And seeing that almost all of their defenses are active, they cannot mitigate the damage coming from an invisible attack. This is especially troublesome for non-Dagger/Pistol/Rifle Thieves who cannot enter Stealth on demand simply to avoid getting hit.

    Now, it would be a different matter if "Reveal" skills only removed a Thief from Stealth instead of locking it out completely. But until given a trait or some other method of countering Revealed, Thieves have enough trouble already. Stealth is just as much a defensive tool for the Thief than it is an offensive one.

  • A simple, yet as far as I can see impossible solution, would be to rebalance skills so they can benefit allies more than oneself, or, say, earn additional benefits for hitting more than just oneself or more than one enemy. As an example, perhaps a piercing bullet bleeds when it hits more than 1 enemy. Some of this is already in place, but I think it could use more emphasis to improve the PvP scene. I've seen this design principle implemented in some MOBA games, and the gameplay was really fun and teamplay oriented.

    Unfortunately, I think as a design principle this fundamentally conflicts with the idea of being able to PvE by oneself effectively. Since the same game exists in PvE singleplayer as well as many multiplayer formats, it would be difficult to take away from those who enjoy playing alone.

    Yes, there is the possibility of adjusting skills to have PvP-only text; however, the level of change I'm imagining would create too big a difference between PvP and PvE to be even recognizable. This would drastically affect those who wish to transition from scene to scene, like myself.

    My conclusion: we have to make the best out of a game that is fundamentally designed to be able to enjoy alone... and in PvE (thus encouraging outrageously selfish abilities and talents)! I will still play PvP and enjoy it as long as the imbalances are not too influential on game outcomes at my mediocre play level.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    Very good post explaining why most players have left and PvP has entered zombie mode. It's not about the balance itself but the cheese builds popping out every 'balance update from the team'.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    Not only can Thieves not contest a point in Stealth, but they cannot counter Stealth either... they have no Revealing skills. So they are just as at risk of other Stealthed foes as anyone else, perhaps even more so. And seeing that almost all of their defenses are active, they cannot mitigate the damage coming from an invisible attack. This is especially troublesome for non-Dagger/Pistol/Rifle Thieves who cannot enter Stealth on demand simply to avoid getting hit.

    This could easily be prevented by the game not having stealth AT ALL.
    Thieves are the last who should complain about it.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    This could easily be prevented by the game not having stealth AT ALL.
    Thieves are the last who should complain about it.

    I'm not complaining. Just stating that Thieves are among the most vulnerable targets to Stealthed enemies. So we adapt and survive. It's part of the game... along with every other problematic function that causes Thieves grief.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    I'm not complaining. Just stating that Thieves are among the most vulnerable targets to Stealthed enemies. So we adapt and survive. It's part of the game... along with every other problematic function that causes Thieves grief.

    How are Thieves more vulnerable than other professions to stealth instant kills?
    Even a Warrior with marauder Amulet and Wurm runes is down to 1/4 or less health when a medium-skilled thief decides to eat them from stealth.
    Stealth attacks deal way too much damage to ANY class and can NOT be anticipated. If it somehow was negated, it's pure, lucky coincidence.
    Stealth is straight-up anti-pvp.

  • @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    -Stealth works in GW2 in such a way that seriously bugs out depending on latency and often desyncs animations for 1/2 a second after revealing. You can even precast a ton of skills while stealthed and they will all hit before your model even renders on other players screens. Anets current model of fixing this problem is to add revealed on cast to certain skills - while this is a good fix that should be added to more heavy hitters, a better way would be to just add better counters to stealth. There are a lot of underpowered abilities in the game that are due for a buff, and just adding "Reveals nearby enemies 600 range" to a few utilities for every class would go a long way.

    Please... no more Revealed skills unless Thieves are given some form of immunity to them. Stealth Thieves are too squishy to survive without the ability to hide, and most don't hit that hard (relatively speaking) even from Stealth. Not only is a Thief in Stealth giving up control of a point in Conquest, but being locked out of Stealth negates an entire traitline.

    Not only can Thieves not contest a point in Stealth, but they cannot counter Stealth either... they have no Revealing skills. So they are just as at risk of other Stealthed foes as anyone else, perhaps even more so. And seeing that almost all of their defenses are active, they cannot mitigate the damage coming from an invisible attack. This is especially troublesome for non-Dagger/Pistol/Rifle Thieves who cannot enter Stealth on demand simply to avoid getting hit.

    Now, it would be a different matter if "Reveal" skills only removed a Thief from Stealth instead of locking it out completely. But until given a trait or some other method of countering Revealed, Thieves have enough trouble already. Stealth is just as much a defensive tool for the Thief than it is an offensive one.

    There is already a still to counter reveal. DE elite.

    Also, the reason for reveal in the first place was the fact that so many classes could stealth reset and burst. We don't need a counter to a counter.
    The only reveal skill that see play is gaze of madness on rev.
    Engineer has it on traits, so does warrior. DH has it on class mechanic on a spec no one plays outside of silver.
    Running actual reveal skills on your bar is just not worth it.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    I'm not complaining. Just stating that Thieves are among the most vulnerable targets to Stealthed enemies. So we adapt and survive. It's part of the game... along with every other problematic function that causes Thieves grief.

    How are Thieves more vulnerable than other professions to stealth instant kills?
    Even a Warrior with marauder Amulet and Wurm runes is down to 1/4 or less health when a medium-skilled thief decides to eat them from stealth.
    Stealth attacks deal way too much damage to ANY class and can NOT be anticipated. If it somehow was negated, it's pure, lucky coincidence.
    Stealth is straight-up anti-pvp.

    They don't, just stuff like malice and assassins signet makes it feel like it. D/p daredevil use to max at around 5-7k

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    6. Win buttons
    This is when a skill is able to just do everything at once. A good example for this would be Mirage sword ambush: Dodge, Mobility, damage, CC, leap finisher. Counterplay and decision making means very little in the face of abilities that just do everything. Why think about counterplay when you can just press a button that does it all?

    There is plethora of clic to win in the top 5 metaclass and you choose mirage sword ambush who is kinda bugged, can be rupt and don't do damage as an example... (I change mirage ambush to real 4 in 1 skill like bullcharge when you want.), but yeah there is too much op skills.

    -Stealth works in GW2 in such a way that seriously bugs out depending on latency and often desyncs animations for 1/2 a second after revealing. You can even precast a ton of skills while stealthed and they will all hit before your model even renders on other players screens. Anets current model of fixing this problem is to add revealed on cast to certain skills - while this is a good fix that should be added to more heavy hitters, a better way would be to just add better counters to stealth. There are a lot of underpowered abilities in the game that are due for a buff, and just adding "Reveals nearby enemies 600 range" to a few utilities for every class would go a long way.

    Stealth builds aren't even considered since holo PASSIVELY auto reveal.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Ya. People say this all the time then the counter complaint is : “but there’s no mirages in top 25”

    It’s a terrible counter argument because not everyone is Sindrener. Cheese builds are designed to do one thing, which is to win an encounter with minimal effort or skill. Most of these cheese builds also happen to be unfun to play against and players lower than top 25 suffer.

    You might be a player that has no problem with these cheese builds, but everyone else on your team does...so you end up losing a match because the enemy exploits their lack of counter play to the cheese. It’s not your fault but you’ll always be on the receiving end of the consequences.

    Bunker DH traps were pretty cheese thing. long time ago during HOT. Players would just chain blocks, heals and damage negation while piling traps into a node to force people off of it...even if you won the fight you could not stand on the node, and the DH would win through node attrition...by constantly forcing you off node even if they are out on res pawn. It took close to a year before they did something about it and it plagued low tier games so long people started quitting. It was just the beginning of node cheese...followed by ventari knockback bunker, scourge condi aids followed by the current mirage aids.

    Yeah, talking about cheese build they removed a third of mesmer gameplay ('clone death) beacause of "cheese" then they give cheese evade effects to everyone. But yeah no mirage in top 25 isn't an argument ofc.
    Bob the casual who came here with his "feeling"' argument is probably much better.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    How are Thieves more vulnerable than other professions to stealth instant kills?
    Even a Warrior with marauder Amulet and Wurm runes is down to 1/4 or less health when a medium-skilled thief decides to eat them from stealth.
    Stealth attacks deal way too much damage to ANY class and can NOT be anticipated. If it somehow was negated, it's pure, lucky coincidence.

    I think you answered your own question. Warriors can naturally take more damage than a Thief. If a Warrior gets hit that hard from a single attack, a Thief that gets hit is going to be completely downed. Unlike Warriors and most professions, Thieves don't have much access to blocks or Protection or invulnerabilities or passives.

    We can argue about unfairness all day long, but Thieves certainly don't hold any exclusive claim on unfairness.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    There is already a still to counter reveal. DE elite.

    That is literally a single skill on an Elite spec. It literally doesn't help any other Thief at all. If it were a Core utility, then it would be a different matter.

    Running actual reveal skills on your bar is just not worth it.

    In that case, let's just remove them from the game and call it even. No harm done.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    This game needs less skills overall. Some builds already have a number of attacks which inflict near-lethal damage on their own. Why have anything more than that? Why not just design classes around one or two powerful attacks and devote the rest of the class' toolkit to unique role support and/or mobility? Within a paradigm like that, protracted damage negation and stability probably have no need to even exist at all. Instead, every GW2 build across all classes boils down to 20 lethal attacks and 4 panic buttons which negate incoming damage and effects.

  • @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    How are Thieves more vulnerable than other professions to stealth instant kills?
    Even a Warrior with marauder Amulet and Wurm runes is down to 1/4 or less health when a medium-skilled thief decides to eat them from stealth.
    Stealth attacks deal way too much damage to ANY class and can NOT be anticipated. If it somehow was negated, it's pure, lucky coincidence.

    I think you answered your own question. Warriors can naturally take more damage than a Thief. If a Warrior gets hit that hard from a single attack, a Thief that gets hit is going to be completely downed. Unlike Warriors and most professions, Thieves don't have much access to blocks or Protection or invulnerabilities or passives.

    We can argue about unfairness all day long, but Thieves certainly don't hold any exclusive claim on unfairness.

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    There is already a still to counter reveal. DE elite.

    That is literally a single skill on an Elite spec. It literally doesn't help any other Thief at all. If it were a Core utility, then it would be a different matter.

    Running actual reveal skills on your bar is just not worth it.

    In that case, let's just remove them from the game and call it even. No harm done.

    Or let's buff them to a point they are worth running. Stealth is already way stronger in this game than literally every other mmo out there. Let's not make it stronger.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Why not just design classes around one or two powerful attacks and devote the rest of the class' toolkit to unique role support and/or mobility?

    Yeah, let's shoehorn every class into a single Build. Because that works so well.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Why not just design classes around one or two powerful attacks and devote the rest of the class' toolkit to unique role support and/or mobility?

    Yeah, let's shoehorn every class into a single Build. Because that works so well.

    GW2's fundamental design paradigm already shoehorns all players into more or less the same playstyle regardless of which class is chosen. If you were to limit the ways in which each class respectively deals damage but still maintained the threat from each attack, you would end up with combat that would not only be a lot more legible (as in you wouldn't have each class on the field striking 5-6 times with different actives and passives within 2-second spans), but you would also probably infuse a lot more risk/reward encounters into combat considering how people would know what to watch for and inflicting heavy damage on a targets would require either joint effort among players or a repeated effort from a single player with a limited attack kit.

    This is the difference between a Warrior just sort of PvE rotating through 8, fire-and-forget combat CDs, some blocks, and some panic buttons before eventually just defaulting to Rampage and a Warrior who would need to move constantly and quickly, only stopping to throw out multiple Eviscerates (or something) when there might be an opening to pressure or finish. It would mean more clarity and risk to combat, which would also mean a much, much higher skill ceiling. If there's only one or two, risk-associated attacks per class to watch, everyone is suddenly charged with avoiding and countering them actively rather than the current meta strategy of just popping a bunch of damage negation and CC immunity before charging/teleporting in and spamming.

  • @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Or let's buff them to a point they are worth running. Stealth is already way stronger in this game than literally every other mmo out there. Let's not make it stronger.

    I'm not against weakening Stealth in general. I am, however, against weakening the Thief's Stealth, seeing that it is supposed to be the Master of Shadows. Besides, if Stealth were really that strong, every Thief would be taking it. It's certainly not so strong in Conquest, so you've got a lot more Sword and Staff Thieves running around with evasion instead of Stealth. What irritates me is the Thief has become more condi-oriented than pure power, and that's a shame.

    Now, in WvW, it's a different matter. However, with all of the changes, Stealth's effectiveness has been severely reduced. Mounts have absolutely crippled the Thief's ambush potential, and sentries make it extremely difficult to hide in enemy territory.

  • @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Or let's buff them to a point they are worth running. Stealth is already way stronger in this game than literally every other mmo out there. Let's not make it stronger.

    I'm not against weakening Stealth in general. I am, however, against weakening the Thief's Stealth, seeing that it is supposed to be the Master of Shadows. Besides, if Stealth were really that strong, every Thief would be taking it. It's certainly not so strong in Conquest, so you've got a lot more Sword and Staff Thieves running around with evasion instead of Stealth. What irritates me is the Thief has become more condi-oriented than pure power, and that's a shame.

    Now, in WvW, it's a different matter. However, with all of the changes, Stealth's effectiveness has been severely reduced. Mounts have absolutely crippled the Thief's ambush potential, and sentries make it extremely difficult to hide in enemy territory.

    Staff is the only thief build without invis. Sword dagger has dagger 5 for on demand invis. They can't have improved invis and all the on demand evades all in one package.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • I love cheese, my favorite cheese flavors are pepper jack and firebrand. My least favorite is Brie and Holosmith.

  • @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Staff is the only thief build without invis. Sword dagger has dagger 5 for on demand invis. They can't have improved invis and all the on demand evades all in one package.

    But Dagger 5 isn't Stealth on demand. It must successfully hit a target from melee range in order to apply Stealth. And getting a valid hit has as much to do with luck as it does skill.

    The only weapon sets that have Stealth on demand are Dagger/Pistol and Rifle. Everything else requires offhand Pistol in combination with switching weapon sets or having the Daredevil's leaping dodge.

    What's really odd is that a Thief cannot even naturally enter Stealth. There's no F3 function for a basic short Stealth. To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos. Of course, a Thief cannot naturally outrun or evade more than anyone either. Everything about the Thief is about how you build, and you can't have it all. There are always sacrifices that must be made.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    What's really odd is that a Thief cannot even naturally enter Stealth. There's no F3 function for a basic short Stealth. To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos. Of course, a Thief cannot naturally outrun or evade more than anyone either. Everything about the Thief is about how you build, and you can't have it all. There are always sacrifices that must be made.

    Seeing how overloaded Thief already is with stealth, it doesn't need a F3 for it.

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    GW2's fundamental design paradigm already shoehorns all players into more or less the same playstyle regardless of which class is chosen.

    Not everyone is playing Meta Builds y'know.

    I for example, I play Fire/Air DD Tempest and DD / Shortbow condi Soulbeast.
    I play my Holosmith with Elixirs
    My Herald is always Jalis/Glint with Hammer as my main weapon.

    Lately, I only play Core Warrior in pvp, with Dual Axes / GS and as much stunbreaks a possible.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    GW2's fundamental design paradigm already shoehorns all players into more or less the same playstyle regardless of which class is chosen.

    Not everyone is playing Meta Builds y'know.

    I for example, I play Fire/Air DD Tempest and DD / Shortbow condi Soulbeast.
    I play my Holosmith with Elixirs
    My Herald is always Jalis/Glint with Hammer as my main weapon.

    Lately, I only play Core Warrior in pvp, with Dual Axes / GS and as much stunbreaks a possible.

    Even if it's not "meta," that doesn't at all mean that your builds serve unique, functional roles. Making unique, functional class roles is the goal of legible combat and a "risk vs reward" attack design. No matter what you tell yourself, you're just basically playing less effective versions of the sole, generic playstyle which permeates all classes in GW2.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4, 2019

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Staff is the only thief build without invis. Sword dagger has dagger 5 for on demand invis. They can't have improved invis and all the on demand evades all in one package.

    But Dagger 5 isn't Stealth on demand. It must successfully hit a target from melee range in order to apply Stealth. And getting a valid hit has as much to do with luck as it does skill.

    Imagine thinking "skill" equates to chaining a teleport into a buffered attack with a 0.5s activation time.

    What's really odd is that a Thief cannot even naturally enter Stealth. There's no F3 function for a basic short Stealth.

    I actually wouldn't mind if Thief had an "enter stealth" F-button, but only if that F-button was the only way in which Thief could stealth, and only if then smoke fields were removed from the game (or at least lost their function of granting stealth). At least that way [STEALTH BUTTON] could technically be a unique (if not dreadfully shallow) class mechanic.

    To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos.

    Nothing about this is difficult.

    Of course, a Thief cannot naturally outrun or evade more than anyone either.

    Lmao teleports and Shortbow 5. No Thief ever dies unless it is blatantly their fault or they're going in for some bot-forward, dog-pile play in which they hope to get a positive outcome based on the rest of their team's efforts. There is effecitvely no match-up (aside from another Thief) that can consistently chase down a Thief who knows that they're in a bad position (which should be easy to recognize because this game has a huge field of view and a super helpful minimap with loads of freely given, real-time info; basically zero game-sense required).

    Everything about the Thief is about how you build, and you can't have it all. There are always sacrifices that must be made.

    Traits are nothing but benefits; never sacrifice. Shortbow is stapled to literally every Thief bar because it can allow them to move freely across any field far more rapidly than any other class in the game. There is no opportunity cost associated with Thief because GW2 combat is almost entirely governed by instant damage and instant movement. Thief already has so many teleports inherently stapled to its most popular skill bars as well as another surplus of teleports jostling around in its utility pool, that everyone just chooses the best ones and gets along fine. Arguably, teleporting and stationary damage negation are respectively better than stealth anyway, and it shows in how every Thief utility bar is typically Withdraw, Shadowstep, condi cleanse signet, [teleport signet/evade and gain initiative], and Dagger Storm.

    GW2 is a shallow game. Thief, without sacrificing damage (which is the only thing that really matters in GW2), gets all of GW2's best mechanics in spades without really worrying about opportunity cost. It's effortless.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief class mechanic is steal, not stealth, which is just a part of their tools for survival, like evasion.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Weakening stealth should be about reducing durations or access. In that I agree with @Kageseigi.2150 about how to address issues of “too much stealth.” I also think it’s hard to complain about the net code delays when 95% of the time the game works. I get attacked regularly by stealthy thieves and this isn’t usually an issue for me. I may be an outlier so take that with a grain of salt.

    On reveal:

    Adding reveal, especially long duration reveal, is an automatic retreat or die for stealth based builds, unless they can use LoS cover or Shadow Meld to clear it. It’s very heavy handed and feels like a hard CC if your primary defense is from stealth.

    Forcing someone out of stealth is reasonable counterplay. Locking them out of re-stealthing is where it goes too far in my opinion. Stealth requires burning a utility or weapon skill or combo. Stealth isn’t free and forcing them to expend cooldowns is a cost. They also are visible and targetable with all the risks that come with that.

    My suggestion:

    Every build should have a reveal skill or trait that gives a 0.1 second reveal. Longer reveals should be on meaningful (longer cooldown) skills/traits and not able to be attached to large AoE (looking at Holo here).

    There should also be fewer professions with long duration reveals because not every person needs to have a 6+ second reveal in addition to their regular abilities. It opens the door to chain reveals if you only need half your team to get 15+ seconds of visibility on an otherwise squishy target.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Thief class mechanic is steal, not stealth, which is just a part of their tools for survival, like evasion.

    The Thief class is a flavor-based show-case class for the stealth mechanic. It's fundamental gimmick has always been stealth (even if stealth has been co-opted by basically every other class at this point to some degree). The only reason it has Steal is because somebody (probably sometime around 2009 or 2010) said that it needed a different cover-gimmick so that everyone wouldn't think that they weren't just trying to bait the WoW crowd with another generic rogue rip-off.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Lmao teleports and Shortbow 5. No Thief ever dies unless it is blatantly their fault or they're going in for some bot-forward, dog-pile play in which they hope to get a positive outcome based on the rest of their team's efforts. There is effecitvely no match-up (aside from another Thief) that can consistently chase down a Thief who knows that they're in a bad position (which should be easy to recognize because this game has a huge field of view and a super helpful minimap with loads of freely given, real-time info; basically zero game-sense required).

    You're clearly anti-Thief, so it's useless to argue with you, so I'll just be quick.

    First of all, I said that Thieves cannot NATURALLY outrun or evade more than anyone else. Shortbow is NOT natural, it is a build choice. It has only one teleport naturally (Steal), but it is useful only for placing the Thief on top of a target... it cannot be used to run away. Daredevils only have half the range on it, and Deadeyes lack it altogether.

    Secondly, in Conquest, it is status quo for the Thief to be "in a bad position" in terms of combat. Of course, a Thief can hide in the corner all day long and run along the edge of the map to avoid getting killed, but he is not contributing anything to his team if he does so.

    Traits are nothing but benefits; never sacrifice.

    Only compared to its base capability. However, when compared to a full build, that is not true. A Thief has to choose which traits and traitlines to take depending on what it wishes to do (the same is true for weapons, utilities, and other parts of the build). To give any one up is severely weakening its ability to do something else. Does he go evasive? Does he go stealthy? Does he go mobile? Does he go lethal? The Thief cannot have it all. Yet people are acting as though every Thief is some super lethal killer who can't ever been seen or hit or caught. It's simply not true.

    Thief, without sacrificing damage (which is the only thing that really matters in GW2), gets all of GW2's best mechanics in spades without really worrying about opportunity cost. It's effortless.

    This is where it shows that you have absolutely no credibility on the matter.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    TL;DR: Anet please start considering counterplay and interactive gameplay into your balance decisions more often. The current trend of not doing so is putting the excellent combat system GW2 has to waste and making people quit the game.

    And Anet skipping straight to TLDR be like "Y da heck you need counterplay against raid bosses?"

    Really good post tho. Agreed.

    @Swagg.9236 said:>

    To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos.

    Nothing about this is difficult.

    Yes it is.. at least if you want any substantial amount of stealth time. Most of it only barely lasts long enough to try 1 backstab or something.. And if you want to go invis for just a bit longer (often not even long enough to outrun someone - since invis != invul and everyone's just spaming AoE and stuff which ofc still hits - you have to trait into Shadow Arts or something and therefore have to giveup something else extremely critical. As thief your traitlines are pretty much fixed, there are no real alternatives. You basically can't run any thief build without trickery and ditching deadly arts would also be very substantial. The third traitline then is either an elite spec or in case of s/d acrobatics and swapping it out would greatly reduce your utility (besides shadow arts being pretty much useless with s/d since you virtually never stealth)
    It's funny.. thief is one the least stealthy classes nowadays. S/D basically provides no stealth other than a veeeeery occasional Dagger5 (which costs a fuckton of initiative and doesn't do a lot of dmg - its primary use was for D/D into backstab I guess)

    Of course, a Thief cannot naturally outrun or evade more than anyone either.

    Lmao teleports and Shortbow 5. No Thief ever dies unless it is blatantly their fault or they're going in for some bot-forward, dog-pile play in which they hope to get a positive outcome based on the rest of their team's efforts. There is effecitvely no match-up (aside from another Thief) that can consistently chase down a Thief who knows that they're in a bad position (which should be easy to recognize because this game has a huge field of view and a super helpful minimap with loads of freely given, real-time info; basically zero game-sense required).

    Being able to outrun as thief has become magnitudes more difficult. Almost every class has either pretty good in-combat mobility (through teleports, blinks, leaps, charges, what not) or a huge range. Unless you have ez and instant access to LoS you realistically can't outrun ranger or mesmer for example.
    While thief has evades on a lot of weapon skills it has to be mentioned that 1) with ez access to Vigor for a lot of classes or endurance regen it has become a lot more equal 2) the skills cost initiative which if you force a thief to spend for dodging it also means he has less resources to properly fight AND shortbow 5 away.
    It's not like thief has unlimited access to everything. Force a thief to teleport around and he will be left with pretty much nothing. 3 teleports (2700 range) is all you can get.. Most of the time you can barely make 2 shadow steps when disengaging and then you are an easy pick off.
    If they can successfully disengage from you every time maybe don't waste everything in your kit at once.. If I'm fighting a spellbreaker for example I also don't waste my stun breaks until he pops Rampage.

    Everything about the Thief is about how you build, and you can't have it all. There are always sacrifices that must be made.

    Traits are nothing but benefits; never sacrifice. Shortbow is stapled to literally every Thief bar because it can allow them to move freely across any field far more rapidly than any other class in the game. There is no opportunity cost associated with Thief because GW2 combat is almost entirely governed by instant damage and instant movement. Thief already has so many teleports inherently stapled to its most popular skill bars as well as another surplus of teleports jostling around in its utility pool, that everyone just chooses the best ones and gets along fine. Arguably, teleporting and stationary damage negation are respectively better than stealth anyway, and it shows in how every Thief utility bar is typically Withdraw, Shadowstep, condi cleanse signet, [teleport signet/evade and gain initiative], and Dagger Storm.

    Like I already said before you don't have much choice as thief when it comes to traitlines.. Trickery is absolutely mandatory, DA is almost as important and the third one is pretty much pinned to the weapon set. Swap anything out and you lose A LOT of output. It's not like thieves aren't creative or something. You are forced to use that stuff.. Also like I already said: It's not like thief gets everything for free. "It can allow them move freely across any field" is simply not true. You won't even cover half the distance between two nodes and then you are completely out of initiative which renders you virtually useless for at least a couple seconds.

    GW2 is a shallow game. Thief, without sacrificing damage (which is the only thing that really matters in GW2), gets all of GW2's best mechanics in spades without really worrying about opportunity cost. It's effortless.

    You clearly NEVER played thief yourself in sPvP or WvW.

  • @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Lmao teleports and Shortbow 5. No Thief ever dies unless it is blatantly their fault or they're going in for some bot-forward, dog-pile play in which they hope to get a positive outcome based on the rest of their team's efforts. There is effecitvely no match-up (aside from another Thief) that can consistently chase down a Thief who knows that they're in a bad position (which should be easy to recognize because this game has a huge field of view and a super helpful minimap with loads of freely given, real-time info; basically zero game-sense required).

    You're clearly anti-Thief, so it's useless to argue with you, so I'll just be quick.

    First of all, I said that Thieves cannot NATURALLY outrun or evade more than anyone else. Shortbow is NOT natural, it is a build choice. It has only one teleport naturally (Steal), but it is useful only for placing the Thief on top of a target... it cannot be used to run away. Daredevils only have half the range on it, and Deadeyes lack it altogether.

    With this logic, dragonhunter is the most mobile spec. It's the only one with movement as the class mechanic. And that just isn't true.

    Secondly, in Conquest, it is status quo for the Thief to be "in a bad position" in terms of combat. Of course, a Thief can hide in the corner all day long and run along the edge of the map to avoid getting killed, but he is not contributing anything to his team if he does so.

    Thieves aren't actually that squishy. You still have perma vigor and evade frames on most weapon sets.

    Traits are nothing but benefits; never sacrifice.

    Only compared to its base capability. However, when compared to a full build, that is not true. A Thief has to choose which traits and traitlines to take depending on what it wishes to do (the same is true for weapons, utilities, and other parts of the build). To give any one up is severely weakening its ability to do something else. Does he go evasive? Does he go stealthy? Does he go mobile? Does he go lethal? The Thief cannot have it all.

    So basically just every other class?
    Guardian needs valor and virtues, Ele needs arcane, warrior needs disc, revs needs invocation and engineer needs alchemy.

    Thief, without sacrificing damage (which is the only thing that really matters in GW2), gets all of GW2's best mechanics in spades without really worrying about opportunity cost. It's effortless.

    This is where it shows that you have absolutely no credibility on the matter.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    Secondly, in Conquest, it is status quo for the Thief to be "in a bad position" in terms of combat. Of course, a Thief can hide in the corner all day long and run along the edge of the map to avoid getting killed, but he is not contributing anything to his team if he does so.

    Thieves aren't actually that squishy. You still have perma vigor and evade frames on most weapon sets.

    On the other hand thieves don't have anything else really. While most other classes have either blocks, aegis, prot, invul, reflects or at least some defensive passives, thief doesn't have anything from all of it. Only Instant Reflexes which is a 2 second evade on 90s cd. Not particularly great if you ask me. Or - if you are keen enough to run Daredevil on anything other than condi cheese nowadays - thief gets access to an active block, yes.
    I don't count blind anymore since blind is pretty much useless nowadays if you don't have a single hit burst to heavily rely on which - realistically - no class has anymore (aside from maybe d/p thief with backstab but d/p is dead anyways so who cares). Like.. Every major burst now has multiple hits per skill which massively reduces the effect of blind or you can just spam it, like conditions, so you don't need to rely on that one single hit. Or the enemy isn't bursty in the first place and just eats your health away step by step.
    So.. Thief only really has dodges to stay alive. In addition to the lack of basically every defensive mechanism thief has also a pretty low health pool.

    Also.. high vigor uptime and endurance gain isn't something special.. Almost every class has quite a variety of endurance gain boosts (now).
    The only thing thief has with really superior improvements to dodges is Daredevil but Anet killed Daredevil by making d/p useless. Only thing that's still getting used is Lotus Training for condi cheese.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    Anyone remembers Turret Engi? Or Spirit Ranger? That was both in the Classic Times that people look back on nostalgically now. Cheese builds have always been a thing, and while annoying and often frustrating to play against, it is not the reason why this game has gone downhill. I'd even say it's not the balance overall, even though it was almost never really good and balance patches were too slow and too few.

    The lack of content was the much bigger problem. It took them three years to start the first PvP Season, another year for an actual MMR-based leaderboard instead of pipgrind, then 1,5 years or so for ATs (that already were a thing originally but got removed) and now we close to a two year wait for Swiss, with chances being that even implemented it will be a mess (mAT final planned to remain BO1).

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about mAT return and PvP content

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it's just that nobody here played during launch. Maybe nobody remembers how the only thing that Thief couldn't dance around or utterly obliterate was the apex of the time: d/d Elementalist running 3 cantrips and as much passive healing as possible. Maybe nobody remembers how a very viable, often seen and arguably meta comp was 4 d/d eles + X, and most player-held tournaments at the time forced teams to limit their roster to a maximum of 2 instances of a unique class (entirely just to suppress Elementalists). Maybe nobody remembers how the only time any other classes rose up to challenge Thief for a team slot was either because it was a portal bot Mesmer or because some random class got a flavor of the month buff (such as spirit spam Ranger/"petting zoo"). Maybe nobody realizes that all of the buffs and additions over the course of this game's lifespan have basically all been trending toward emulating what Thief has always had: offensive capability while negating damage and movement with impunity. Maybe nobody can see beyond the surface of how basically every class in the game (besides maybe Necromancer) has more or less become a Thief to some degree: evading while attacking; negating damage for protracted amounts of time; teleporting around.

    Back in 2012/2013, Thief was nearly immune to damage with a single D/P 3 into 5 while spamming autos. That, combined with built-in stealth access, was often enough to scare people into defensive postures or force players to spend huge threat skills just to get the Thief out of damage range. As skill activation times continued to lower and damage continued to increase, the Thief playstyle shifted from D/P to S/D because of the protracted evasion and teleport spam (because blinds just couldn't suppress outgoing damage well enough at that point). Yet regardless of the patch, shortbow 5 was always there to carry Thief to relevance on any team simply due to how it could let a player traverse a map at ludicrous speeds to constantly keep opponents worried about decaps or in order to +1 fights at will without having to resort to utilities or valuable weapon skills in order to speed up movement. Even as Mesmers got more and more buffs, and became a typical staple on teams, some teams would still run Thief and Mesmer in the same comp only because of how powerful that decap pressure was combined with another player's ability to just teleport an entire team to a fight instantaneously.

    This whole thread was basically supposed to be a call to remove all of the instant-speed attacks and godmode that has been added into the game, but even if you managed to remove everything that was added post-launch, you'd still be left with a class that repeatedly teleports and evades while attacking as its main, baseline flavor.

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:
    First of all, I said that Thieves cannot NATURALLY outrun or evade more than anyone else. Shortbow is NOT natural, it is a build choice.

    You are, in reality, just playing Thief incorrectly. The value of no-cooldown, ground-targeted teleports is game-defining in GW2, and has been for the entirety of the game's lifespan (which is why Thief has always appeared in every GW2 PvP metagame cycle since launch). If nothing else, Thief has always been "Shortbow 5: The Class." To just dismiss that for no reason other than because maybe Thief occasionally struggles in 2019 PvP is heinously short-sighted of you.

    It has only one teleport naturally (Steal), but it is useful only for placing the Thief on top of a target... it cannot be used to run away. Daredevils only have half the range on it, and Deadeyes lack it altogether.

    You say this like you don't bring other teleports on top of that. Daredevils passively get extra evades and typically just run the regular core Thief sets on top of that (which are laden with teleports and evades both on the weapon and utility bars). If you run into combat as a Thief without a suite of teleports, you're again just playing it improperly (or just trying to meme on people really hard in unranked, which is perfectly fine). There is almost zero justifiable reason to consider any of the Thief's skill "options" outside of a tiny, cherry-picked set of the most obviously powerful (and often similar) skills.

    Secondly, in Conquest, it is status quo for the Thief to be "in a bad position" in terms of combat. Of course, a Thief can hide in the corner all day long and run along the edge of the map to avoid getting killed, but he is not contributing anything to his team if he does so.

    Except the Thief is constantly pressuring un-guarded nodes, and can easily inflict troublesome damage to lone players without putting himself at too much risk. It's the nature of the class in PvP. If you can't do this as a Thief, you're either bad at video games, or you've just built your bar incorrectly. A Thief should be able to constantly pressure an opposing team's formation, and it doesn't even have to rely on being in combat in order to do this. That's how strong things like Shortbow 5 are.

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos.

    Nothing about this is difficult.

    Yes it is.. at least if you want any substantial amount of stealth time. Most of it only barely lasts long enough to try 1 backstab or something.. And if you want to go invis for just a bit longer (often not even long enough to outrun someone - since invis != invul and everyone's just spaming AoE and stuff which ofc still hits - you have to trait into Shadow Arts or something and therefore have to giveup something else extremely critical. As thief your traitlines are pretty much fixed, there are no real alternatives. You basically can't run any thief build without trickery and ditching deadly arts would also be very substantial. The third traitline then is either an elite spec or in case of s/d acrobatics and swapping it out would greatly reduce your utility (besides shadow arts being pretty much useless with s/d since you virtually never stealth)
    It's funny.. thief is one the least stealthy classes nowadays. S/D basically provides no stealth other than a veeeeery occasional Dagger5 (which costs a fuckton of initiative and doesn't do a lot of dmg - its primary use was for D/D into backstab I guess)

    Right, but again, all I've said was that nothing about getting access to stealth or entering stealth is difficult. For Thief, there is absolutely nothing difficult about getting stealth on your bar or going into stealth. Whether or not going into stealth at any given point is "meta" is up for debate (particularly considering how almost no meta Thief build really utilizes it in huge amounts--outside of maybe the Deadeye gimmick--typically opting instead for extra evades and teleports), but what you're basically trying to argue is how just because stealth doesn't operate as a win-button or let you get away from every threat possible, it's "difficult" to use. Seriously, just spare me. That's really just how damaged a lot of this game's playerbase is.

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    Being able to outrun as thief has become magnitudes more difficult. Almost every class has either pretty good in-combat mobility (through teleports, blinks, leaps, charges, what not) or a huge range. Unless you have ez and instant access to LoS you realistically can't outrun ranger or mesmer for example.

    You already talked about how you try not to waste stun-breaks until players use huge attacks like Rampage. How do you, as a Thief, not have access to easy LoS cancelling? You're basically failing at a map-knowledge level: a "skill" so fundamental and superficial that anyone should have it after playing GW2 for more than a few weeks (or even just after watching a video on some of the gimmick teleport spots among the PvP levels). Know your gimmick teleport spots and terrain through which you can teleport. It gives Thief (and other teleport classes, although perhaps not quite to the same level) a massive baseline advantage in a lot of fights. You also can just juke people repeatedly by doing things like getting chased up to that bridge area which borders Temple mid, dropping down from the bridge, and then just Shortbow 5'ing back up to the top of the bridge again from underneath. How is this even difficult?? You have evades to cover yourself while you buy time and reposition for this stuff too.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't some dude a few years ago do the math, any weapon set in any class vs Initiative system and it turned out the later was a longer cd on weapon skills

  • @Swagg.9236 said:
    Except the Thief is constantly pressuring un-guarded nodes, and can easily inflict troublesome damage to lone players without putting himself at too much risk.

    NOTICE THIS!!!

    We have gone from the Thief being cheese because Stealth is OP to the Thief being OP because it can pressure empty points and cause "troublesome damage" to isolated targets, and at one point near launch, it could actually kill things!

    This is why Thief players don't take complaints seriously. Honestly, listen to yourselves!

    Yup, Thieves are so special! I'm sure other professions are extremely envious of the abilities to pressure empty points and cause troublesome damage to lone targets!

    I guess I should just give up my slot as a Thief so someone else can have the privilege of playing this ultimate and effortless class! I mean, I must be taking up an exclusive slot, right? Why else wouldn't everybody be playing it? After all, it seems that I've been playing it wrong the whole time!

  • @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos.

    Nothing about this is difficult.

    Yes it is.. at least if you want any substantial amount of stealth time. Most of it only barely lasts long enough to try 1 backstab or something.. And if you want to go invis for just a bit longer (often not even long enough to outrun someone - since invis != invul and everyone's just spaming AoE and stuff which ofc still hits - you have to trait into Shadow Arts or something and therefore have to giveup something else extremely critical. As thief your traitlines are pretty much fixed, there are no real alternatives. You basically can't run any thief build without trickery and ditching deadly arts would also be very substantial. The third traitline then is either an elite spec or in case of s/d acrobatics and swapping it out would greatly reduce your utility (besides shadow arts being pretty much useless with s/d since you virtually never stealth)
    It's funny.. thief is one the least stealthy classes nowadays. S/D basically provides no stealth other than a veeeeery occasional Dagger5 (which costs a fuckton of initiative and doesn't do a lot of dmg - its primary use was for D/D into backstab I guess)

    Right, but again, all I've said was that nothing about getting access to stealth or entering stealth is difficult. For Thief, there is absolutely nothing difficult about getting stealth on your bar or going into stealth. Whether or not going into stealth at any given point is "meta" is up for debate (particularly considering how almost no meta Thief build really utilizes it in huge amounts--outside of maybe the Deadeye gimmick--typically opting instead for extra evades and teleports), but what you're basically trying to argue is how just because stealth doesn't operate as a win-button or let you get away from every threat possible, it's "difficult" to use. Seriously, just spare me. That's really just how damaged a lot of this game's playerbase is.

    I wanted to completely agree with you (because apparently I indeed didn't exactly address your issues with stealth with my commentary) - until you got condescending and insulted me (and the playerbase) unnecessarily. I guess I just quote you back on this: That's really just how damaged a lot of this game's playerbase is.
    And your insults continue: v

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    Being able to outrun as thief has become magnitudes more difficult. Almost every class has either pretty good in-combat mobility (through teleports, blinks, leaps, charges, what not) or a huge range. Unless you have ez and instant access to LoS you realistically can't outrun ranger or mesmer for example.

    You're basically failing at a map-knowledge level: a "skill" so fundamental and superficial that anyone should have it after playing GW2 for more than a few weeks (or even just after watching a video on some of the gimmick teleport spots among the PvP levels). Know your gimmick teleport spots and terrain through which you can teleport.

    Stop belittling me lol.. "Seriously, just spare me".

    You also can just juke people repeatedly by doing things like getting chased up to that bridge area which borders Temple mid, dropping down from the bridge, and then just Shortbow 5'ing back up to the top of the bridge again from underneath. How is this even difficult?? You have evades to cover yourself while you buy time and reposition for this stuff too.

    Did you just describe how to kite? Because when I'm talking about "outrunning" I mean "catch up with me when I try to disengage because I'm about to die" not kiting.. because I call kiting kiting, you know? And I don't want to reposition when I try to outrun, I want to get away as far and as quickly as I can.
    Don't get me wrong, of course thief has superior possibilities for resetting the fight and disengaging over a lot of other classes but my statement of "outrunning became magnitudes harder" still stands.

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