Kralkatorrik's domains, Jormag's domains, possibly Primordus' domains are revealed now. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Kralkatorrik's domains, Jormag's domains, possibly Primordus' domains are revealed now.

DoggySpew.4529DoggySpew.4529 Member ✭✭
edited September 4, 2019 in Lore

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/
In this issue, in the article on the Bound By Blood, of the Dragons we know (excluding Steve), we now have almost all the domains.
Zhaitan was Shadow and Death (revealed earlier), Mordremoth Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik were Crystal (and here is the new info) and Fury.
Jormag has Ice and Persuasion (Jormag will be quite the villain I think).
Primordus has Fire and Conflagration, but that almost means the same thing, so I do not think this counts as a second domain.

Comments

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoggySpew.4529 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/
    In this issue, in the article on the Bound By Blood, of the Dragons we know (excluding Steve), we now have almost all the domains.
    Zhaitan was Shadow and Death (revealed earlier), Mordremoth Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik were Crystal (and here is the new info) and Fury.
    Jormag has Ice and Persuasion (Jormag will be quite the villain I think).
    Primordus has Fire and Conflagration, but that almost means the same thing, so I do not think this counts as a second domain.

    This is kinda neat that they put this together, but what is exactly is fury per say and how did Kralkatorrik show this domain. How could other Elder Dragons show it as well like hypothetically Jormag.

    Same with Shadow for Zhaitan. Are we simply talking shadowy magic or something else.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What’s also interesting is the secondary sphere seem to be non physical domains, mind, persuasion, fury. Does shadow also fall into this non physical pattern as well?

  • Isn't there another dragon? A water one?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    Isn't there another dragon? A water one?

    We know next to nothing about it though

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Patty.3268Patty.3268 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, there is another dragon which apparently doesn't show up to their elder dragon meetings or official photo sessions. What a rebel! So we only know that he is the deep sea/water dragon and that his name starts with "S...".

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even is "Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

    It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

    That was my question too. What if Primordus gained persuasion domain and the mind domain how would it look any different. Would there be destroyers that we’re now more intelligent have speech and would now persuade people?

    What does fury magic look like? Were the branded more furious then the other dragon minions, will any other Elder Dragon who absorbs this spectrum now have minions that berserk?

    It’s all a bit strange.

    Also please for the love of Dwayna, what is the shadow domain?

  • Did anyone also notice Aurene is the crystal/prismatic dragon of light? Kind of seems like they are trying to incorporate more aspect elements. Lighting, fire, ice/water, light, shadow, earth/plant. Most of these elements have a corresponding aura, also forgot chaos. Fury could be in a messed up way augmented reality or a twisted emotion? As for Jormag, persuasion or manipulation eh not sure.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fury is an... interesting choice of moniker. Based on the characterisation we'd seen of Kralkatorrik before, I'd probably categorise that as "the fury of the storm", covering air magic, possibly chaos magic, and maybe some forms of magic that instill fury in others.

    Aurene becoming the "Elder Dragon of Light" rather than simply co-opting Kralkatorrik's domains is unexpected, but perhaps this GW2's equivalent of Secrets versus Truth: it might essentially be the same domain, but Aurene embodies a more serene and benign form of the domain. Where Kralkatorrik embodied a storm's fury and the sharp edges of shattered crystal, Aurene instead focuses on the gentle refraction of light inside a crystal and the nourishing glow of a clear sky. Same underlying power, but taken in an entirely different direction.

    Nevertheless, one thing I do find interesting is that "Light" encompasses a field of mortal magic that until now has seemed to be unrepresented among the dragons. Necromancy is obviously similar to Zhaitan's power, while various mesmeric and elemental magics seems to be spread among the dragons, Preservation seemed to be pretty much unrepresented outside of Glint's Facet of Light. Aurene's new moniker, therefore, could imply that this is a branch of magic that falls within her domain... and might always have been in Kralkatorrik's, but his insanity prevented it from manifesting.

  • according to Cambridge Dictionary (Online) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/conflagration

    conflagration
    noun [ C ]
    formal uk ​ /ˌkɒn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/ us ​ /ˌkɑːn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/

    1: a large fire that causes a lot of damage

    2: a large and violent event, such as a war, involving a lot of people:
    The government has turned a minor local problem into a full-blown regional conflagration.

    other dictionaries simplify the second meaning into " a large conflict "

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    according to Cambridge Dictionary (Online) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/conflagration

    conflagration
    noun [ C ]
    formal uk ​ /ˌkɒn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/ us ​ /ˌkɑːn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/

    1: a large fire that causes a lot of damage

    2: a large and violent event, such as a war, involving a lot of people:
    The government has turned a minor local problem into a full-blown regional conflagration.

    other dictionaries simplify the second meaning into " a large conflict "

    So Primordus could be described possible as the dragon of "Fire and conflict." or "Fire and war"

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    Did Mordy's mind magic actually work on anyone else than the sylvari?
    Also the difference could be that Mordy was more... let's say directly overtaking the mind in question by forcefully messing it, while Jormag could be "making offers one just can't refuse". So it would be mainly a matter of style.
    (Does it make any sense?)

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Did Mordy's mind magic actually work on anyone else than the sylvari?
    Also the difference could be that Mordy was more... let's say directly overtaking the mind in question by forcefully messing it, while Jormag could be "making offers one just can't refuse". So it would be mainly a matter of style.
    (Does it make any sense?)

    The other races could hear Mordremoth once in close proximity, such as the Mouth of Mordremoth as well as once you are in the Dream for the final encounter. So he could speak with you with telepathy. I suppose Mordremoth should have the ability to read minds as well other then his minions and the Sylvari.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    Is all this coming from the "study" by Gorrik and Taimi in the magazine? Not to be a bookah, but sometimes Asuran research doesn't quite turn out as planned... ;)

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All this talk about the ED's domains always seemed like nonsense to me. Glad they've proven me correct.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even is "Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

    It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

    i did noticed this redundacy too, most domains can be wrapped on "mind".

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Conflagration can also mean a large war, which could be taken to mean that primordus is a military genius and knows exactly how to use his destroyers and exactly who he’s fighting. Zhaitan and kralkatorrik have different ways of completely taking you over, Mordremoth invaded you mind first, jormag convinces you to go willingly, and primordus is so many steps ahead of you and your army it doesn’t matter if you want to join him. He’ll already have a plan to wipe you out.

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  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    according to Cambridge Dictionary (Online) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/conflagration

    conflagration
    noun [ C ]
    formal uk ​ /ˌkɒn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/ us ​ /ˌkɑːn.fləˈɡreɪ.ʃən/

    1: a large fire that causes a lot of damage

    2: a large and violent event, such as a war, involving a lot of people:
    The government has turned a minor local problem into a full-blown regional conflagration.

    other dictionaries simplify the second meaning into " a large conflict "

    So Primordus could be described possible as the dragon of "Fire and conflict." or "Fire and war"

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Conflagration can also mean a large war, which could be taken to mean that primordus is a military genius and knows exactly how to use his destroyers and exactly who he’s fighting. Zhaitan and kralkatorrik have different ways of completely taking you over, Mordremoth invaded you mind first, jormag convinces you to go willingly, and primordus is so many steps ahead of you and your army it doesn’t matter if you want to join him. He’ll already have a plan to wipe you out.

    Conflagration being used instead of "war" feels even worse. We don't need even more parallels between the Six Gods and six Elder Dragons after being repeatedly told there's no connection.

    That said, we've seen nothing warlike from Primordus or the Destroyers, and they're definitely not "so many steps ahead that he already has a plan to wipe you out", especially so in Eye of the North; so I'd think that it's meant to be more a volcanic eruption styled conflagration.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Did Mordy's mind magic actually work on anyone else than the sylvari?
    Also the difference could be that Mordy was more... let's say directly overtaking the mind in question by forcefully messing it, while Jormag could be "making offers one just can't refuse". So it would be mainly a matter of style.
    (Does it make any sense?)

    The other races could hear Mordremoth once in close proximity, such as the Mouth of Mordremoth as well as once you are in the Dream for the final encounter. So he could speak with you with telepathy. I suppose Mordremoth should have the ability to read minds as well other then his minions and the Sylvari.

    I think the Mouth is actually speaking, and not being in one's mind. Same with while in the Dream. That said, those standing in/near the Heart of Thorns do hear Mordremoth (e.g., while fighting Faolain). And Rytlock seemed more sensitive than other non-sylvari.

    @Tanith.5264 said:
    Is all this coming from the "study" by Gorrik and Taimi in the magazine? Not to be a bookah, but sometimes Asuran research doesn't quite turn out as planned... ;)

    Taimi's very frequently used as an exposition and truth-revealer, especially in Season 3. And since then she's only been repeatedly labeled as the leading scholar in Elder Dragon studies (thanks to learning from Zojja (who in turn learned from Snaff and Kudu's research) and Rata Novus).

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  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2019

    The use of conflagration was also strange to me, I do kinda hope it is being used more as "conflict" or "war" though that does make it draw parallels to the Human Gods like someone already mentioned. But the use of the word made me wonder if it was suppose to somehow be an antonym of persuasion since Jormag and Primordus are suppose to counteract each other. The word just...doesn't seem to fit in that context though.

    As for Jormag being about persuasion, I do think it is genuinely different from Mordremoth. Mordy didn't really seem to be persuading people imo, it was more that his voice came as a command, an order, to sylvari when they could finally hear him. He made them, so it makes sense to me that he could assert some control over them just like Kralk with its Branded or Zhaitan with its Risen, etc. Jormag on the other hand seems to actually like...try and genuinely convince someone to join its side through persuasion, promising you power or safety or whatever you want to hear in exchange for allying with it; you choose to follow and be "corrupted" of your own volition, not through force. Mordy also couldn't really do anything to the minds of non-sylvari, his mind aspect seems to more reflect that he doesn't really have a body. He's just...the "mind" of the jungle.

    Edit: also I just remembered in the magazine, the page before Taimi's notes, isn't the last line something along the lines of the Elder Dragons not being what we thought they were? Then the next page is mainly what we think they are. Hmmm...

  • @Ototo.3214 said:
    As for Jormag being about persuasion, I do think it is genuinely different from Mordremoth. Mordy didn't really seem to be persuading people imo, it was more that his voice came as a command, an order, to sylvari when they could finally hear him.

    I would disagree. Mordremoth influenced sylvari in different ways, and he did use coercion and persuasion as well as trickery.

    With Caithe, for example, he made his influence feel like a Wyld Hunt. But with Scarlet and Occam, he made his influence feel like their own thoughts. Canach felt it like a buzzing (which Occam also describes), and the Pact Commander (that everyone's more exposed to) was just blaring threats and commands (which Canach describes later on in the story).

    And in the final trailer (and through Faolain), he also made persuasions of his own kind - not promises of power, but promises of purpose that so many sylvari had been searching for. Which I always took as being "the Call" that Laranthir refers to.

    Edit: also I just remembered in the magazine, the page before Taimi's notes, isn't the last line something along the lines of the Elder Dragons not being what we thought they were? Then the next page is mainly what we think they are. Hmmm...

    That bit of "they may not be what we thought they were" is tying back to an earlier statement that "they may have their own agendas". Basically, ArenaNet is really, really late on confirming what they've hinted to, and that I've been saying, for the past 5 years: they're not forces of nature, but have personalities and goals each to their own.

    Gorrik's notes also allude to this a bit, with how he writes that perhaps Aurene could elaborate on how Zhaitan and Mordremoth identified themselves gender-wise, since until the end of Season 4, Tyrians viewed them as that "forces of nature" despite it being increasingly glaringly obviously not so as of Forging the Pact.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think I'm inclined to more or less agree with @Ototo.3214

    Mordremoth's strategy with the Sylvari was generally a matter of bombarding them with thoughts and ideas and commands so that the sylvari in question found it hard to distinguish between what the dragon wanted and what they wanted. Essentially, it's a kind of brainwashing, or instilling a kind of multiple personality disorder. It's essentially a brute force attack - he's trying to overwhelm the sylvari's original personality and replace it with a Mordrem Guard.

    Jormag doesn't seem to have this brute force approach. Instead of, effectively, driving his target insane and then giving them a direction, Jormag seems to be trying to make prospective new followers join him of their own free will, purely through the temptation of what he offers. He doesn't try to drown your thoughts out, he wants you to genuinely think that accepting his power is the best way to get what you want.

  • But in the end, both are "Mind attacks". Whether it's argued to be brute force or soft touch. You're still using your hand whether you're punching someone or pushing them. You're using "Mind" whether your bombarding with thoughts, or subtly whispering thoughts.

    It seems to be an odd overlap that doesn't exist elsewhere. Even when Kralkatorrik took the Mind domain, he used it to instill shared spatial cognition into his minions - that didn't become a new domain, it was still Mind being used in a new manner.

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  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    As for Jormag being about persuasion, I do think it is genuinely different from Mordremoth. Mordy didn't really seem to be persuading people imo, it was more that his voice came as a command, an order, to sylvari when they could finally hear him.

    I would disagree. Mordremoth influenced sylvari in different ways, and he did use coercion and persuasion as well as trickery.

    With Caithe, for example, he made his influence feel like a Wyld Hunt. But with Scarlet and Occam, he made his influence feel like their own thoughts. Canach felt it like a buzzing (which Occam also describes), and the Pact Commander (that everyone's more exposed to) was just blaring threats and commands (which Canach describes later on in the story).

    And in the final trailer (and through Faolain), he also made persuasions of his own kind - not promises of power, but promises of purpose that so many sylvari had been searching for. Which I always took as being "the Call" that Laranthir refers to.

    Edit: also I just remembered in the magazine, the page before Taimi's notes, isn't the last line something along the lines of the Elder Dragons not being what we thought they were? Then the next page is mainly what we think they are. Hmmm...

    That bit of "they may not be what we thought they were" is tying back to an earlier statement that "they may have their own agendas". Basically, ArenaNet is really, really late on confirming what they've hinted to, and that I've been saying, for the past 5 years: they're not forces of nature, but have personalities and goals each to their own.

    Gorrik's notes also allude to this a bit, with how he writes that perhaps Aurene could elaborate on how Zhaitan and Mordremoth identified themselves gender-wise, since until the end of Season 4, Tyrians viewed them as that "forces of nature" despite it being increasingly glaringly obviously not so as of Forging the Pact.

    That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

    Mordremoth didn't need to get into someone's mind to corrupt them. He could easily corrupt their bodies, slowly turning them into plants (as we see done with Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves), or toss their bodies (living or - thanks to Zhaitan's magic - dead) into blighting pods. Mordremoth only got into the minds of sylvari, who could not be corrupted traditional ways due to the Pale Tree's protection.

    Jormag does get into people's minds when trying to persuade them - the whispers of power are literally telepathy, and the Dragonspawn uses hypnotism to try to force Zojja to want that offering of power.

    Both are mental mindfuckeries, even though they're slightly different methods of doing that. And they're far closer to each other than how Kralkatorrik uses the Mind domain in S4 (giving his minions shared spacial cognition).

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

    When that conversation with that high charisma someone takes place in your mind, then the difference is a lot more blurred. When "having your mind manipulated with magic" takes the form of thoughts being implanted in your head, the difference is even more blurred.

    While what's said is different, both Jormag and Mordremoth use telepathy into the minds of others as their secondary domain.

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  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    Do we know that jormag uses Telepathy, though? We know that his minions do. We know that Drakkar and Dragonspawn had telepathic capabilities, but that doesn't mean that jormag does. It could very well be similar to Zhaitan's mesmeric minions, it doesn't mean that he has mind magic just because his minions do. I could be wrong, but I do not know that anyone has been talked to in their mind directly by jormag.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    Regarding Jormag's influence, there's the atoning Son of Svanir called Rojan the Penitent who informs us about hearing Jormag's call when the Claw of Jormag event is active:

    Rojan the Penitent: No... Jormag... He calls to me...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    Do we know that jormag uses Telepathy, though? We know that his minions do. We know that Drakkar and Dragonspawn had telepathic capabilities, but that doesn't mean that jormag does. It could very well be similar to Zhaitan's mesmeric minions, it doesn't mean that he has mind magic just because his minions do. I could be wrong, but I do not know that anyone has been talked to in their mind directly by jormag.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20160304181626/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

    Here, Jeff Grubb states that Jormag has "definite mind-altering powers".

    http://web.archive.org/web/20160306130059/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_19649.png

    From same post, "And "voice" may be what the norn feel when their minds are caressed by Jormag".

    Seems like Drakkar was just a conduit for Jormag to mentally affect Svanir and the earlier Sons of Svanir. Other champions - or Jormag's corruption in general - may do the same.

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  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    Sadly, we do have to remember that dev comments aren't canon and can be changed. I am not trying to debate over semantics, I'm just trying to find a way to explain this weird and somewhat undesirable situation (fury, seriously?) And have it make some sense.

    It becomes difficult, though because they initially set up the secondary domains as magics that could be transferred between dragons, but these new ones feel more like motives or mindsets. Like Zhaitan' shadow domain had more to do with the way that he demoralized his enemies, and kralkatorrik's fury has to so with his anger, and perhaps configuration could have more to do with stirring up conflict, but it all falls apart once way or another...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ototo.3214 said:
    That still doesn't really convince me that it's the same thing as Jormag. Many of those come across as him actually getting into someone's mind, which is his domain, and all of those examples are sylvari. His minions. Jormag on the other hand can be seen corrupting just about anything and I don't really see it as him/her literally getting into someone's mind but him/her actually making a convincing offer that some willingly accept. At least to me, manipulative mind control is different than actual persuasion.

    Mordremoth didn't need to get into someone's mind to corrupt them. He could easily corrupt their bodies, slowly turning them into plants (as we see done with Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves), or toss their bodies (living or - thanks to Zhaitan's magic - dead) into blighting pods. Mordremoth only got into the minds of sylvari, who could not be corrupted traditional ways due to the Pale Tree's protection.

    Jormag does get into people's minds when trying to persuade them - the whispers of power are literally telepathy, and the Dragonspawn uses hypnotism to try to force Zojja to want that offering of power.

    Both are mental mindfuckeries, even though they're slightly different methods of doing that. And they're far closer to each other than how Kralkatorrik uses the Mind domain in S4 (giving his minions shared spacial cognition).

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I would agree, there is a difference between having a conversation with someone that has a really high charisma and having your mind manipulated with magic.

    When that conversation with that high charisma someone takes place in your mind, then the difference is a lot more blurred. When "having your mind manipulated with magic" takes the form of thoughts being implanted in your head, the difference is even more blurred.

    While what's said is different, both Jormag and Mordremoth use telepathy into the minds of others as their secondary domain.

    Being a different mode might well be enough to classify it as a different domain of magic, even if it has a similar end result. Looking at GW1 mesmer spells, for instance, Domination spells tended to seem work by instilling a particular emotion, while Illusion spells worked by, well, illusions, but they could often result in similar effects. Punishment hexes, for instance, were available for both, and in the necromancer Curses line as well. So there's three different ways across two professions to achieve pretty much the same result.

    Or to give another example, pretty much everyone has a way to produce flame and/or set something on fire, even if Fire magic specifically is an elementalist thing.

    Just because the ends may be similar does not necessarily require that the means are also the same. Hypnotism, for instance, sounds like an illusion effect, while Mordremoth's techniques are probably more akin to GW1-style Domination, implanting thoughts and emotions directly into the mind of the victim.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was is interesting as Mordremoth being the mind dragon, he didn’t seem to use the mind domain to his full potential. Why didn’t he just mind control the other races and then lure them into blighting Pods. The only creatures that seemed to be susceptible to his mind control were the Sylvari. Maybe this will be explored with other dragons using the domain differently.

    I’m also trying to look more into this fury domain of magic and try to make sense of it. Fury of the brand, some branded use fury and attacks that have fury in the name. Am I missing anything else?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Was is interesting as Mordremoth being the mind dragon, he didn’t seem to use the mind domain to his full potential. Why didn’t he just mind control the other races and then lure them into blighting Pods. The only creatures that seemed to be susceptible to his mind control were the Sylvari. Maybe this will be explored with other dragons using the domain differently.

    I’m also trying to look more into this fury domain of magic and try to make sense of it. Fury of the brand, some branded use fury and attacks that have fury in the name. Am I missing anything else?

    the only clue we had about is the special enviroment mechanic "fury of brand" introduced in Pof. but still vague, the lightning strikes can be labeled as any synonym of violence, like "heavens rage" etc.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

    And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

    Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

    Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

  • I'm actually thinking now that the secondary domains are not really domains of magic but descriptions Anet assigned to each dragon before or during their awakening. Zhaitan always being the shadow beyond the light of The Six. Mordremoth breaking the mind of Sylvari to speed up the awakening. Kralkatorrik rising in fury at the betrayal by his own kin. Jormag persuading the Nornbear to accept the power that would further his own legend in exchange of complacence to Jormag's rise. Primordus threatening to rise in the wake of the conflagration amongst the dwarves.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

    And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

    Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

    Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

    Problem is that persuasion via mundane means isn't going to be a magical domain. So unless @DaFishBob.6518 is right and the second domain isn't supposed to be a magical domain at all (in which case, all of the non-crystal stuff that Kralkatorrik has is difficult to explain), mundane persuasion doesn't fit with being a secondary domain.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    The only kernel I can offer is that perhaps Mind and Persuasion differ in the sense that one is more akin to mental dominance and influence, telepathy, and mind reading, whereas the other is more social and interpersonal. Persuasion being about charisma and person to person influence, being a skilled debater and smooth talker to the point that you can easily sway people with your words and arguments, your force of personality, etc. You can make yourself more appealing or less menacing just through your speech and actions.

    And then Mind is more... mind flayer stuff. Subjugation and mind games (literally). Asserting your commands and desires above another’s. Trying to attract them with the advantage of intimately knowing their mind, or being able to project/implant your thoughts into theirs.

    Not that Mord wasn’t subtle and cunning, but I think a lot of that extended from his ability to have a figurative window into the minds of others. Jormag might not be able to interact with/read the mind in the same way, but perhaps they’re exceptionally skilled sussing out someone’s desires and insecurities through more mundane tactics alone.

    Edit: and Kralk and Prim’s domains are.. eh. I like the idea of Fury connecting to storms and chaos, but seems so abstract and random. Conflagration I guess makes sense for the most destructive ED but it’s meaning is so closely linked with fire that it’s hard not to view it as redundant.

    Problem is that persuasion via mundane means isn't going to be a magical domain. So unless @DaFishBob.6518 is right and the second domain isn't supposed to be a magical domain at all (in which case, all of the non-crystal stuff that Kralkatorrik has is difficult to explain), mundane persuasion doesn't fit with being a secondary domain.

    Well, I guess when I say mundane I don't necessarily mean non-magical. I just mean the magic is in the interaction.

  • Jormag persuasion? No he has true mind control not the kitten kind where you still have an will but you can not control your actions. No in Jormag's case his will is your will. Jormag is the true mind controller.

  • @adormtil.1605 said:
    Jormag persuasion? No he has true mind control not the kitten kind where you still have an will but you can not control your actions. No in Jormag's case his will is your will. Jormag is the true mind controller.

    That's mordremoth for Sylvari.

    Jormag manipulates you and gets you to accept the power and corruption. There is not been any mentioned cases of what you mention, in regards to Jormag.

  • More accurately, that's how every Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    More accurately, that's how every Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

    Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

    But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even is "Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

    It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

    Agreed. It seems to me that they picked "Fury" as Kraalkatorrik's second domain just because he was angry all the time thanks to the Torment's influence, but that, as you said, just reflect his personality and not really his powers. They could have chosen "Chaos" and it would have been much more fitting , imo.
    Same with Jormag's "Persuasion" and Primordus "Conflagration". It doesn't seem like they put much thought into it, which is sad.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The new domains are rather disappointing to me, tbh. I mean, what even is "Fury magic"? And how is Persuasion any different than Mordremoth's Mind which he used to persuade sylvari to join him. Meanwhile, "Fire and Conflagration" are pretty much synonyms.

    It feels like the only Elder Dragon who's second domain was given any significant thought for showcasing was Mordremoth's Mind (and that, itself, was unnecessary given the way it was used), and the rest are just there because they backed themselves into a corner, and rather than exploring the potential of additional domains that they don't predominantly use, they just made something that reflects their personality instead of their powers.

    Agreed. It seems to me that they picked "Fury" as Kraalkatorrik's second domain just because he was angry all the time thanks to the Torment's influence, but that, as you said, just reflect his personality and not really his powers. They could have chosen "Chaos" and it would have been much more fitting , imo.
    Same with Jormag's "Persuasion" and Primordus "Conflagration". It doesn't seem like they put much thought into it, which is sad.

    I’m beginning to think that these secondary domains are not as impactful as their primary domain. We barely see Zhaitan use the Shadow domain, other then a few Risen using Shadow magic. Mordremoth used the mind domain in regards to the Sylvari. I don’t ever recall any Mordrem having any mind domain abilities. When Kralkatorrik absorbed the mind sphere, the branded communicated better between themselves, however we never really saw any evidence of them acting any differently then say Branded in Ascalon. If Primordus or Jormag absorbed the fury domain, would there be any difference? Will the Icebrood or Destroyers be more furious or would they act the same as before.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    More accurately, that's how every Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

    Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

    But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

    Here is the thing in case of Jormag you are not trapped inside your own body and doing things without any control. You do things knowingly like we do when we do anything. Its not an out of body experience. I do not know how to say it better. Master Mind Control.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @adormtil.1605 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    More accurately, that's how every Elder Dragon's minions are. Risen, branded, destroyers, mordrem, and even icebrood all lack free will - their dragon's will is their will. That's one of the "horrors" of being corrupted. You're aware of your actions, but you can't help but follow the Elder Dragon's commands.

    Correct actually, thinking about it. I was thinking in a different manner or pre-icebrood status.

    But we have heard of a former branded mentioning what Konig said. Being trapped within his own body for years until the pact finally "killed him" and freed his spirit.

    Here is the thing in case of Jormag you are not trapped inside your own body and doing things without any control. You do things knowingly like we do when we do anything. Its not an out of body experience. I do not know how to say it better. Master Mind Control.

    It's not exactly an out of body experience for risen or branded either though. Being enslaved to the Elder Dragon is the core definition of what a dragon minion - any dragon minion - is.

    What makes Jormag different is that unlike the other Elder Dragons, Jormag prefers to corrupt those who come willingly to them, while the others will forcibly corrupt everyone. But once corrupted, whether branded or icebrood, you're enslaved to the dragon's will, and you don't even consider the very concept of betraying that will.

    Thing is, the "different from all other Elder Dragons" thing was stated before Mordremoth became a thing to the story, and in the end, Mordremoth also played the "corrupt mainly those who willingly join them" card with sylvari - or rather, Mordremoth could only turn those sylvari who joined him willingly.

    Both Jormag skirt around that "join willingly" aspect too - the Dragonspawn would use hypnosis to get enemies to 'willingly' accept Jormag's influence and Drakkar would whisper promises and offerings, while Mordremoth would whisper thoughts that sound like the victim's own or bombard them with thoughts that drove them to Mordremoth just to make it stop.

    In the end, their mental methods of coercion were only slightly different. And once corrupted, all five known types of dragon minions were mentally the same, more or less.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • In Honor of the Waves an son of svanir something convinced the religious leader of the bear people by bombarding her with submit submit submit until she submitted and then became an follower of Jormag. I do not know if Mordremoth can do that also to more then Sylvari. Even if he can Jormag does it better because he can do it to more types of races and can do it trough minions.

  • Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Accept the power of Dragon!
    Honor's Voice: Leave me in peace! I beg you!
    Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Walk in the path of Dragon!
    Kodan's Bane, Huntsman of Jormag: Receive Dragon's Gift! Its blood is your blood!

    This is the dialogue you're referring to. There's nothing about submitting. Kodan's Bane just outright corrupts the Honor's Voice and that's all there is to it. No submission, no persuasion. It's just point blank corruption. A lot of Sons of Svanir do this to others, hence my above use of "primarily" when talking about Jormag's preference of corrupting the willing - it's not a universal thing that Jormag only corrupts the willing. To which point, every Elder Dragons' champions are capable of doing what Kodan's Bane did.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Have you seen any other dragon champion besides Jormag's bothering to convince their future dragon minions to accept their corruption? Kralkatorix just brands you and makes you an prisoner in your own body to put it like that. I do not not remember any dragon champion of Mordremoth besides the elder Dragon himself going the convincing way. I do not know any of the champions of Primordius doing that and Zaithan well he killed you and raised you as an undead or made your body an undead so do his champions. Wonder if that can be reversed or if its usless against undead made from other sources like Joko's awakened.

  • @adormtil.1605 said:
    Have you seen any other dragon champion besides Jormag's bothering to convince their future dragon minions to accept their corruption?

    Yes. The risen do it all the time.

    One famous example:

    Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named.... She/He is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon's wings...
    Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again.

    The risen have less success because they just use words (and sometimes illusions) to instill fear, while icebrood use magical mental influences, but it's there. Both risen and icebrood do try to force their way to corrupt either way.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Is there any known success from the risen?

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