[Idea] Signet of Capture and 500 Jeweler — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Idea] Signet of Capture and 500 Jeweler

Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 5, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

So I doubt there has been any idea how 500 jeweler could come about considering most ascended trinkets are Unique and developing a system to create them would probably be too complicated to develop effectively. Instead of making ascended rings, how about giving a big nod to Guild Wars Classic and introduce a craftable Signet of Capture. Signets are essentially rings with seals on them used to authenticate things much like a signature. In the world of Guild wars, they are rings that carry spells for no cost. Being rings, they should be something a Grandmaster Jeweler should be able to create, no? Now for the system.

After getting 500 jeweler and doing whatever related tasks are required to unlock and craft the Signet of Capture, you get an ascended item called Signet of Capture. You then use it to gain a utility skill called Signet of Capture. You can only have one of these available at a time and it does not do anything until you fight and kill certain bosses. The Signet of Capture Utility skill will also be used up and replaced with the acquired skill. The skill received would be dependent on the boss killed and the profession you were on at the time of capture. Also depending on the type of skill received (Healing or Elite), the Signet of Capture could leave a blank spot instead.

To make the Capture system clear:
  1. Have a 500 Jeweler craft a Signet of Capture.
  2. Use the Signet of Capture to gain a temporary Utility Skill called Signet of Capture.
  3. Equip Signet of Capture.
  4. Fight a specific boss.
  5. Signet of Capture skill turns into another skill upon the boss' death.
  6. Equip new skill at your leisure.
  7. Repeat.
To prevent taggers from exploiting tagging for free skills:
  1. Capturing a skill is subject to a participation mechanic.
  2. Participation gets reset shortly after the fight is reset.
  3. The Signet of Capture must be equipped for entire duration of the fight.

Advantages of this system:

  1. Less work on the developers. Single skill development, mechanics and balancing vs entire sets and mechanics.
  2. Another avenue to introduce new mechanics and keep combat fresh.
  3. Completely compatible with Core. Signet of Capture could be used in core content separate from expacs.
  4. Can add to overall build diversity.
  5. Possibility for "Common" skills, aka profession non-specific skills to be added.
  6. Nostalgia for Guild Wars players but with a GW2 twist.
  7. EDIT: More horizontal progression.

Comments

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sig of capture would never work in Gw2 unfortuantely.

    Shame really, running around the world capturing skills in Gw1 was a fun past time.

    That said having a signet of mimicry skill could be fun.
    In PvP using it on another player could randomly pick one of their 3 utility skills, their healing skill or very rarely their elite skill and copy it to your skillbar for a short duration for you to use.
    Could be a fun addition to the game, definitely sounds like something that would fit a Mesmer elite spec or something ^^

  • I like this idea as well. It would be a fun way to change up gameplay. I do not want it locked behind "grind before you can have fun" mechanics. For this reason I don't want it as a 500 jeweler project.

    The next time you get angry at someone try walking a mile in their shoes. After that, who cares! You're a mile away and you have their shoes! -Someone with more awesome quotes than me

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    So the skill you capture would be able to be used like any other skill of its' type until you fight another world boss? How would it interact with traits? Could we craft more than one signet of capture and have 3 of the same utility skill? The technology is there already; the devs did this in wvw about a month ago, whereby you gained the utilities of the last player you killed. Apparently it was quite fun.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Funky.4861 said:
    So the skill you capture would be able to be used like any other skill of its' type until you fight another world boss?

    No, the skill you get is permanent and you can use it as much as you want. Just like in GW1. You'll lose the Signet of Capture skill but you'll gain whatever it has captured.

    How would it interact with traits?

    With the freedom of skill design this will bring, anet could provide utilities that interact with traits. For example, necros getting extra wells. They could also design skills that do not interact with traits (Common skills) or skills that can only be used by elite specs (Mantra for Firebrand).

    Could we craft more than one signet of capture and have 3 of the same utility skill?

    No. You could only have one Signet of Capture available at a time like in GW1. That doesn't mean you can't craft multiple Signet of Capture items. ;)
    EDIT: Misread. No you will not be able to have multiple copies of the same skill. And that would be a bad idea since the way the engine works, having multiples of the same skill would put all of them on CD with a single use.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    Advantages of this system:

    1. Less work on the developers. Single skill development, mechanics and balancing vs entire sets and mechanics.

    Wishful thinking. Either the skills gained are absolutely useless, or the headache of balancing them for all classes, or unique skills per class would be just as much of a balance nightmare as simply introducing new skills into the game.

    Elite specializations, while a full set of skills (1 heal, 4 utility and 1 elite) are unqiue to each other and only need to be balanced with core skills in mind since a character can not run 2 leite specializations at the same time.

    This could be used as a 1 or 2 time, limited story related skill acquisition similar to how some of the masteries work.

    This isn't GW1. The entire skill system, class system and balance is completely different.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    2. Another avenue to introduce new mechanics and keep combat fresh.

    GW1 had over 1,000 skills, 90% of which were useless. Quanitity is not always quality. Keeping combat fresh could be achieved by reworking underused existing skills already.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    3. Completely compatible with Core. Signet of Capture could be used in core content separate from expacs.

    Which as stated, would be a balancing nightmare.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    4. Can add to overall build diversity.

    So would reworking unsued skills.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    5. Possibility for "Common" skills, aka profession non-specific skills to be added.

    We have those, they are called racials. They are intentionally useless to both simplify balance as well as not benefit a specific race. That's not even getting into Revenant and the issues with that class (4 years in, still no access to racial skills).

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    6. Nostalgia for Guild Wars players but with a GW2 twist.

    Yes, but unfortunately this isn't GW1. Also the Signet of Capture system, while remembered fondly in it's last version, went through quite a few changes in GW1 until it worked the way it did. Suffice to say, the original implementation was a headache and huge pita.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    7. EDIT: More horizontal progression.

    We have that in form of masteries.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Wishful thinking. Either the skills gained are absolutely useless, or the headache of balancing them for all classes, or unique skills per class would be just as much of a balance nightmare as simply introducing new skills into the game.

    I disagree. There will always be skills that are useless or not worth taking over others. And exactly what sounds more of a nightmare to balance? A weaponset of skills, 12 traits, a mechanic, a heal, 4-5 utilities and an elite skill between 9 professions? Or one set of 9 obtainable skills released maybe bimonthly at the earliest? I would rather fine tune a few things than spend over a year getting each elite spec as close to balance as possible.

    Elite specializations, while a full set of skills (1 heal, 4 utility and 1 elite) are unqiue to each other and only need to be balanced with core skills in mind since a character can not run 2 leite specializations at the same time.

    Most elite specs are balance through spec mechanics and numbers. Core skills really do not have much to do with especs at all since especs are essentially add ons to core.

    This isn't GW1. The entire skill system, class system and balance is completely different.

    Anet has successfully added elements of GW1 into GW2 that the engine itself can allow even if 99% of it are just references and lore. I fail to see how they would be incapable of adding Signets of Capture with a GW2 spin on them. Signets are rings. You get Signets of Capture from Skill merchants in GW1. So they can incorporate that through ascended crafting and Spirit Shards which are acquired the same way as skillpoints past lvl 20 in GW1 assuming your masteries are done. As for capturing, I already suggested something that is already used in certain parts of the game.

    GW1 had over 1,000 skills, 90% of which were useless. Quanitity is not always quality. Keeping combat fresh could be achieved by reworking underused existing skills already.

    Anet has tried that for years. It either doesn't work or it causes more problems. Like Thief Venoms which have limited use. They've made venomshare baseline, Residual Venoms baseline, merged everything with Leeching Venoms, made leeching venoms apply a stack of Spider Venom in stealth. Venoms are still stuck in their niche because they are functionally flawed and useless outside a few uses and builds.

    And like I said, that is every game.

    We have those, they are called racials. They are intentionally useless to both simplify balance as well as not benefit a specific race. That's not even getting into Revenant and the issues with that class (4 years in, still no access to racial skills).

    There is a stark difference between what I suggested and racials.

    We have that in form of masteries.

    All masteries have done in this game is make it easier to navigate. A lot of effort for the reward of convenience is nowhere near the amount of horizontal progression especs, crafting, Fashion Wars and general leveling provides. And my idea takes advantage of at least three of them.

  • Forgotten Legend.9281Forgotten Legend.9281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    this idea feels like it has a lot of Synergy with another idea (one of mine actually, based on Signet of Capture nostalgia) Instead of rehashing it, i'll just quote it from another thread.

    @Forgotten Legend.9281 said:
    i was personally hoping (and even wrote up a long [suggestion] post on the old forums) for ANET to add an F6 through F10 skill bar, that in PvE would be populated by players choice of Racial skills, collected environmental weapons (like buckets and heart quest weapons), and unlocked weapons from the personal story / living world episodes (such as the Searing Cauldron).

    racial skills would be unlocked based on the race of the character, obviously (character unlock)
    the environmental weapons would be unlocked through collections, mainly by discovering and equipping the items in the open world. (account unlock)
    the story weapons /skills would make more sense as a character unlock by playing through the story, since some weapons are available only through certain story arcs.

    i also imagined these weapons unlocks to basically work like engineer kits / tranformations.

    this would even allow Revs to use racial skills

    the F6 through F10 skill bar could even be customized differently for PvP and WvW, such as:

    ~ meta changing skills and bonus weekend type skills specific to the competitive game modes

    or even allow raid specific or fractal specific skills

    the idea of this version of signet of capture could be equipped in the "F10" skill slot to be able to learn monster skills in PvE... and would unlock the skill in an account bound collection (meaning once the signet of capture is used, the new skill learned would be available to all characters on your account)

    EDIT:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    To prevent taggers from exploiting tagging for free skills:
    1. Capturing a skill is subject to a participation mechanic.
    2. Participation gets reset shortly after the fight is reset.
    3. The Signet of Capture must be equipped for entire duration of the fight.

    this is the only part that doesn't fit the spirit of GW2. as far as i'm concerned, if the "tagger" participated in the fight enough to get XP and loot drop rewards from the foe, then they've earned the right to learn the new skill. my suggestion would be that the SIgnet of Capture skill "communes" with the corpse of the foe, with an approximate channeling time equivilent to communing with a HP or Mastery Point. I am also assuming that they either invested in Jeweler crafting to 500, or they bought the Signet of Capture off the TP for a significant chunk of change. i imagine that a SoC would probably cost 5-10 gold to craft, and therefore sell for at least as much. it IS 500 level crafted item after all. such as Deldrimor Steel...

    with these investments in mind (1-commune, 2-500 jeweler OR purchase off the TP), there would be no way to exploit tagging for free skills.

    3 is basically moot, since you cannot change skills while in combat.

    "Bacon Defeciency DIsorder Sux"
    ~ The Baconnaire

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Wishful thinking. Either the skills gained are absolutely useless, or the headache of balancing them for all classes, or unique skills per class would be just as much of a balance nightmare as simply introducing new skills into the game.

    I disagree. There will always be skills that are useless or not worth taking over others. And exactly what sounds more of a nightmare to balance? A weaponset of skills, 12 traits, a mechanic, a heal, 4-5 utilities and an elite skill between 9 professions? Or one set of 9 obtainable skills released maybe bimonthly at the earliest? I would rather fine tune a few things than spend over a year getting each elite spec as close to balance as possible.

    Given those 9 skills are balanced against all the classes skills (4 (core)+2 (elite) healing, 20 (core)+10(elite) utility and 3 (core) +2 (elite) elite skills), definately the core add on top. You said it yourself later on: especs are essentially add ons to core. They literally addon, then fall off again when not used. Simply adding on skills is by simple math way more difficult to balance for, unless those skills are useless, as are many of the existing ones. You are simply adding more clutter.

    That's without even considering skills for all classes which would be even more of a nightmare to balance, as mentioned.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Elite specializations, while a full set of skills (1 heal, 4 utility and 1 elite) are unqiue to each other and only need to be balanced with core skills in mind since a character can not run 2 leite specializations at the same time.

    Most elite specs are balance through spec mechanics and numbers. Core skills really do not have much to do with especs at all since especs are essentially add ons to core.

    Exactly, elite specs are contained within themselves. The ability to balance and shape them is way better than simply adding in core skills when there is already an abundance of skills which could see some rework.

    Elite specialization skill implementatio is essentially additive versus simply increasing the number of core skills, which is multiplicative in effort to balance.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This isn't GW1. The entire skill system, class system and balance is completely different.

    Anet has successfully added elements of GW1 into GW2 that the engine itself can allow even if 99% of it are just references and lore. I fail to see how they would be incapable of adding Signets of Capture with a GW2 spin on them. Signets are rings. You get Signets of Capture from Skill merchants in GW1. So they can incorporate that through ascended crafting and Spirit Shards which are acquired the same way as skillpoints past lvl 20 in GW1 assuming your masteries are done. As for capturing, I already suggested something that is already used in certain parts of the game.

    I didn;t say the engine can't. I said the skill and class design is not made for it. Revenant to this day has no access to racial skills (which are essentially useless, yet still not implemented for the class).

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    GW1 had over 1,000 skills, 90% of which were useless. Quanitity is not always quality. Keeping combat fresh could be achieved by reworking underused existing skills already.

    Anet has tried that for years. It either doesn't work or it causes more problems. Like Thief Venoms which have limited use. They've made venomshare baseline, Residual Venoms baseline, merged everything with Leeching Venoms, made leeching venoms apply a stack of Spider Venom in stealth. Venoms are still stuck in their niche because they are functionally flawed and useless outside a few uses and builds.

    So instead of reworking skills, you want them to simply add more? What makes you so sure the new skills won't be venom skills 2.0 and just as niche?

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have those, they are called racials. They are intentionally useless to both simplify balance as well as not benefit a specific race. That's not even getting into Revenant and the issues with that class (4 years in, still no access to racial skills).

    There is a stark difference between what I suggested and racials.

    Not really. Racials are available accross multiple different classes based on race chosen. They are quite similar in design to what you've suggested and currently, next to special action skills and mounts, the most similar skills in class distribution to what you have suggested.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in form of masteries.

    All masteries have done in this game is make it easier to navigate. A lot of effort for the reward of convenience is nowhere near the amount of horizontal progression especs, crafting, Fashion Wars and general leveling provides. And my idea takes advantage of at least three of them.

    Yes, masteries are limited horizontal progression. Combined with elite specializations with limited horizontal progression. Combined with fashion wars, which is no horizontal power progression. In a game which did not want to introduce strong horizontal progression. I fail to see how these 1 time get and forget skills are a major difference and why they would be needed. As mentioned, the system could be used for some story progression or story related skill acquisition, that's it.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    How would this work with alts? If I capture a skill on my Sylvari guard, do I have to send my Charr guard out to the same boss again to capture the same skill? How about my six mesmers that I play depending on what race I feel like playing that day?

    If I happen to reach the boss when somebody else has already got it down to 20% health (or 10 or 5 or ...), do I have to wait for the boss to respawn to get my skill? What if I'm on a build/character that is support oriented and doesn't dish out a lot of damage, how often do you expect me to start the boss fight to have my skills "stolen" by full damage characters that jump in and kill the boss before I can get appropriate amounts of damage in?

    Somehow the whole concept reminds me of what they tried to do with trait unlocking in the 2014 new player experience update. Might be fun for a character or two (and even then there were plenty of players that hated it the first time around already), but grinding the same bosses/events every time you want to build another character will soon be very tedious.

    The beauty of GW2 is that you can develop your characters to their maximum capacity of skills, traits, and equipment relatively quickly and painlessly, then play whatever you enjoy. I honestly don't see a system that frequently gates new skills/traits/whatever and repeatedly forces players on a very narrow aquisition path if they want to play their characters to their full capacity in this game. It's just contrary to the basic principles.

  • Liston.9708Liston.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    They can’t even balance the classes and professions already in the game... Now there would be more? I’d rather steal the dual class from gw1

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Given those 9 skills are balanced against all the classes skills (4 (core)+2 (elite) healing, 20 (core)+10(elite) utility and 3 (core) +2 (elite) elite skills), definately the core add on top. You said it yourself later on: especs are essentially add ons to core. They literally addon, then fall off again when not used. Simply adding on skills is by simple math way more difficult to balance for, unless those skills are useless, as are many of the existing ones. You are simply adding more clutter.

    That's without even considering skills for all classes which would be even more of a nightmare to balance, as mentioned.

    The professions are fairly balanced as it is and anet is well into competitive cyclical balancing. You cannot get more "balanced" unless you want to turn GW2 into Chess. With that said, it isn't hard to make additional skills using the same ratio of skill-in-to-power-out the rest of the profession and especs have. And they most likely will not impact the profession/espec mechanics, which is where most major balance issues come from, because utilities rarely ever touch them. Utilities assist weapon skills which are very often designed to make use of the mechanics of the profession, like Deadeye weapon skills and malice or Mesmer weapon skills with clones/illusions. I fail to understand where you are coming from considering these things.

    Exactly, elite specs are contained within themselves. The ability to balance and shape them is way better than simply adding in core skills when there is already an abundance of skills which could see some rework.

    Elite specialization skill implementatio is essentially additive versus simply increasing the number of core skills, which is multiplicative in effort to balance.

    I don't think you understood what I meant. Elite specs are addons, not contained within themselves. They add to and sometimes modify the core professions. They create a new profession out of core professions by changing the way it handles and what it's capable of. But most importantly, they are concepts. Concepts that are made with a line of traits, a weaponset and a set of utilities. You can't compare that to a single skill in any way, especially in a balanced environment.

    I didn;t say the engine can't. I said the skill and class design is not made for it. Revenant to this day has no access to racial skills (which are essentially useless, yet still not implemented for the class).

    How is it not made for it? All this idea does is add utilities to what's already existing. You can only have three utilities, one heal and one elite at a time and so something you would normally use in your chosen core/espec may get put with the rest the utilities you rarely touch. Revenant, despite its lack of selectable utilities, still has the popup menus for utility skills. And so with this system they could get additional utilities for their Legends like every other profession would with their utilities.

    So instead of reworking skills, you want them to simply add more? What makes you so sure the new skills won't be venom skills 2.0 and just as niche?

    What makes you so sure they will be? Its much easier to add more than completely redo an entire set of utilities because then you'll have to redesign them from the ground up and then balance them all for the profession and then against other professions (that's not including weapons and traits). You add one skill and the amount of developing and balance needed will equal the work of exactly one skill.

    Not really. Racials are available accross multiple different classes based on race chosen. They are quite similar in design to what you've suggested and currently, next to special action skills and mounts, the most similar skills in class distribution to what you have suggested.

    If they have any similarities its not by much. There were some useful common skills in GW1 but that's because the only race you could choose was Human. In GW2, racial skills are useless and exist entirely for RP and flavor. Otherwise, there is no functional difference between the races. Anet could get rid of them and it wouldn't change the game at all.

    Yes, masteries are limited horizontal progression. Combined with elite specializations with limited horizontal progression. Combined with fashion wars, which is no horizontal power progression. In a game which did not want to introduce strong horizontal progression. I fail to see how these 1 time get and forget skills are a major difference and why they would be needed. As mentioned, the system could be used for some story progression or story related skill acquisition, that's it.

    And this idea would not introduce any stronger horizontal progression because the acquired skills are still subject to the limits of the game and whatever anet desires. All this does is give anet an easy avenue to create content players may want to work for after they hit 80.

  • @Rasimir.6239 said:
    How would this work with alts? If I capture a skill on my Sylvari guard, do I have to send my Charr guard out to the same boss again to capture the same skill? How about my six mesmers that I play depending on what race I feel like playing that day?

    If I happen to reach the boss when somebody else has already got it down to 20% health (or 10 or 5 or ...), do I have to wait for the boss to respawn to get my skill? What if I'm on a build/character that is support oriented and doesn't dish out a lot of damage, how often do you expect me to start the boss fight to have my skills "stolen" by full damage characters that jump in and kill the boss before I can get appropriate amounts of damage in?

    Somehow the whole concept reminds me of what they tried to do with trait unlocking in the 2014 new player experience update. Might be fun for a character or two (and even then there were plenty of players that hated it the first time around already), but grinding the same bosses/events every time you want to build another character will soon be very tedious.

    The beauty of GW2 is that you can develop your characters to their maximum capacity of skills, traits, and equipment relatively quickly and painlessly, then play whatever you enjoy. I honestly don't see a system that frequently gates new skills/traits/whatever and repeatedly forces players on a very narrow aquisition path if they want to play their characters to their full capacity in this game. It's just contrary to the basic principles.

    To be fair, you do the same thing with especs. Except instead of hitting up 25 hero challenges in xpac maps, you find and kill a boss.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:
    How would this work with alts? If I capture a skill on my Sylvari guard, do I have to send my Charr guard out to the same boss again to capture the same skill? How about my six mesmers that I play depending on what race I feel like playing that day?

    If I happen to reach the boss when somebody else has already got it down to 20% health (or 10 or 5 or ...), do I have to wait for the boss to respawn to get my skill? What if I'm on a build/character that is support oriented and doesn't dish out a lot of damage, how often do you expect me to start the boss fight to have my skills "stolen" by full damage characters that jump in and kill the boss before I can get appropriate amounts of damage in?

    Somehow the whole concept reminds me of what they tried to do with trait unlocking in the 2014 new player experience update. Might be fun for a character or two (and even then there were plenty of players that hated it the first time around already), but grinding the same bosses/events every time you want to build another character will soon be very tedious.

    The beauty of GW2 is that you can develop your characters to their maximum capacity of skills, traits, and equipment relatively quickly and painlessly, then play whatever you enjoy. I honestly don't see a system that frequently gates new skills/traits/whatever and repeatedly forces players on a very narrow aquisition path if they want to play their characters to their full capacity in this game. It's just contrary to the basic principles.

    To be fair, you do the same thing with especs. Except instead of hitting up 25 hero challenges in xpac maps, you find and kill a boss.

    The whole trait unlock fiasco of the npe did a good job in demonstrating the difference between "choose any x out of y (>>x) possible challenges" and "do this event, and this event alone". Gathering hero points for elite specs gives you a lot of options, even more if you factor in the fact that you can buy hero point unlocks in wvw. Comparing that to having to hunt down a specific boss and possibly waiting out respawn timers there's a world of difference between the two.

  • @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    To be fair, you do the same thing with especs. Except instead of hitting up 25 hero challenges in xpac maps, you find and kill a boss.

    The whole trait unlock fiasco of the npe did a good job in demonstrating the difference between "choose any x out of y (>>x) possible challenges" and "do this event, and this event alone". Gathering hero points for elite specs gives you a lot of options, even more if you factor in the fact that you can buy hero point unlocks in wvw. Comparing that to having to hunt down a specific boss and possibly waiting out respawn timers there's a world of difference between the two.

    Its one boss, one skill and you're done. Its no different than a collection except that there is only one step. Secondly, players wait for bosses to spawn all the time because of lootbags. Players choose what to kill to obtain these lootbags. If there were, say, 25 skills available for your character to capture and you only really wanted 5 of them then you have that choice. Or you could get them all done. Or you could work on them at your leisure.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Given those 9 skills are balanced against all the classes skills (4 (core)+2 (elite) healing, 20 (core)+10(elite) utility and 3 (core) +2 (elite) elite skills), definately the core add on top. You said it yourself later on: especs are essentially add ons to core. They literally addon, then fall off again when not used. Simply adding on skills is by simple math way more difficult to balance for, unless those skills are useless, as are many of the existing ones. You are simply adding more clutter.

    That's without even considering skills for all classes which would be even more of a nightmare to balance, as mentioned.

    The professions are fairly balanced as it is and anet is well into competitive cyclical balancing. You cannot get more "balanced" unless you want to turn GW2 into Chess. With that said, it isn't hard to make additional skills using the same ratio of skill-in-to-power-out the rest of the profession and especs have. And they most likely will not impact the profession/espec mechanics, which is where most major balance issues come from, because utilities rarely ever touch them. Utilities assist weapon skills which are very often designed to make use of the mechanics of the profession, like Deadeye weapon skills and malice or Mesmer weapon skills with clones/illusions. I fail to understand where you are coming from considering these things.

    Yes, the game is very balanced. I'm sure the spvp, wvw and pve raid scene will agree. The game seems balanced in open world because it makes no difference with how many power levels you exceed the content which you face roll.

    Utility skills are often more powerful than weapon skills. There is no clear line which sees utilities as support skills. There is entire builds revolving around 1-2 utility skills currently.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Exactly, elite specs are contained within themselves. The ability to balance and shape them is way better than simply adding in core skills when there is already an abundance of skills which could see some rework.

    Elite specialization skill implementatio is essentially additive versus simply increasing the number of core skills, which is multiplicative in effort to balance.

    I don't think you understood what I meant. Elite specs are addons, not contained within themselves. They add to and sometimes modify the core professions. They create a new profession out of core professions by changing the way it handles and what it's capable of. But most importantly, they are concepts. Concepts that are made with a line of traits, a weaponset and a set of utilities. You can't compare that to a single skill in any way, especially in a balanced environment.

    Does your view or intent in any way disprove or invalidate what I said though?

    Sure, I can't compare this to a single skill, but I can compare it to a method of skill acquisition. I already said that this might work as a limited story based version. Last I checked, you were talking about multiple skills, multiple bosses, or am I mistaken?

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I didn;t say the engine can't. I said the skill and class design is not made for it. Revenant to this day has no access to racial skills (which are essentially useless, yet still not implemented for the class).

    How is it not made for it? All this idea does is add utilities to what's already existing. You can only have three utilities, one heal and one elite at a time and so something you would normally use in your chosen core/espec may get put with the rest the utilities you rarely touch. Revenant, despite its lack of selectable utilities, still has the popup menus for utility skills. And so with this system they could get additional utilities for their Legends like every other profession would with their utilities.

    Because as of right now, all competative skills are contained per class.... and even that is not achievable with revenant.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So instead of reworking skills, you want them to simply add more? What makes you so sure the new skills won't be venom skills 2.0 and just as niche?

    What makes you so sure they will be? Its much easier to add more than completely redo an entire set of utilities because then you'll have to redesign them from the ground up and then balance them all for the profession and then against other professions (that's not including weapons and traits). You add one skill and the amount of developing and balance needed will equal the work of exactly one skill.

    It's easier to simply add skills, which need to get balanced, than rework individual skills? I'm not following you, and I don't think you are actually serious about this. See Thief rework last patch and the complete exchange of skills and his traps. You are wrong.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not really. Racials are available accross multiple different classes based on race chosen. They are quite similar in design to what you've suggested and currently, next to special action skills and mounts, the most similar skills in class distribution to what you have suggested.

    If they have any similarities its not by much. There were some useful common skills in GW1 but that's because the only race you could choose was Human. In GW2, racial skills are useless and exist entirely for RP and flavor. Otherwise, there is no functional difference between the races. Anet could get rid of them and it wouldn't change the game at all.

    Ursanway completely broke the game. Many of the later introduced account skills which were unrealted to class completely broke the game. If I had to chose between this implementation and keeping flavor racial skills, I'm sticking with racial skills.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, masteries are limited horizontal progression. Combined with elite specializations with limited horizontal progression. Combined with fashion wars, which is no horizontal power progression. In a game which did not want to introduce strong horizontal progression. I fail to see how these 1 time get and forget skills are a major difference and why they would be needed. As mentioned, the system could be used for some story progression or story related skill acquisition, that's it.

    And this idea would not introduce any stronger horizontal progression because the acquired skills are still subject to the limits of the game and whatever anet desires. All this does is give anet an easy avenue to create content players may want to work for after they hit 80.

    Hence the skills would be have to be made useless or face similar effects as in GW1.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    To be fair, you do the same thing with especs. Except instead of hitting up 25 hero challenges in xpac maps, you find and kill a boss.

    The whole trait unlock fiasco of the npe did a good job in demonstrating the difference between "choose any x out of y (>>x) possible challenges" and "do this event, and this event alone". Gathering hero points for elite specs gives you a lot of options, even more if you factor in the fact that you can buy hero point unlocks in wvw. Comparing that to having to hunt down a specific boss and possibly waiting out respawn timers there's a world of difference between the two.

    Its one boss, one skill and you're done. Its no different than a collection except that there is only one step. Secondly, players wait for bosses to spawn all the time because of lootbags. Players choose what to kill to obtain these lootbags. If there were, say, 25 skills available for your character to capture and you only really wanted 5 of them then you have that choice. Or you could get them all done. Or you could work on them at your leisure.

    It was 1 event, and you were done back then too.

    I get it, you want to sell your idea and are immune to all other opinions. Sorry to say though: both similar past implementations of such systems (in GW1) as well as similar implementation of systems in GW2 (events for skills) were not received well. You can accept this, or keep arguing.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Secondly, some players wait for bosses to spawn all the time because of lootbags. Players choose what to kill to obtain these lootbags

    Fixed that for you. Just because some people like to play that way is no reason to force it on everyone.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    If there were, say, 25 skills available for your character to capture and you only really wanted 5 of them then you have that choice.

    Unlike hero points, skills (at least the way you describe them) are not equal. If I want a certain skill, I would have to do the exact boss it's tied to. No choice there (beyond get skill or do without).

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I get it, you want to sell your idea and are immune to all other opinions.

    I'll just skip over the rest since we're just going to talk in circles and strawmans.
    I'm waiting for someone to give an objective opinion and I am immune to overexaggeration and petty concerns.

    • Balancing single skills x9 does not take more effort than an entire espec x9. There is no way anyone can spin this and be correct.
    • Thinking having to kill a single boss for a certain skill is grief-worthy is petty. There is plenty of content in this game that requires you to kill multiple specific bosses to complete a collection. And this idea only requires you to have 500 jeweler and kill a specific boss for a specific skill. Assuming multiple skills are available for your profession to capture, you are not in any way REQUIRED to have it because that's how horizontal progression in this game works.
    • There is no issue with horizontal progression, or powercreep for that matter, because this game is designed to counter said issues. No matter what gets added. You'd be correct if anet was completely abhorrent with balance, but that is nowhere near the case.
    • GW2 is about as balanced as it will get. Look up cyclical balance. You cannot have perfect balance in a game because someone will always find a new META and disrupt whatever balance the developers make. Anet is going to continue nerfing the FoTM for all eternity. That is the best balance you can get without turning GW2 into chess. The only reason why anyone would perceive a profession imbalance at this point either does not know how to play/against X or they are complaining because they want easier wins. PvP is competitive. If players are having a hard time, they shud git gud.
    • A majority of the playerbase is open world PvE. PvP playerbase is small and it has modified copies of PvE skills. So if anet makes a system like this you can bet there will be pvp versions. WvW playerbase is larger but it's mainly meant for zergs, so little point in balancing it on a 1v1 basis. And the Raid crowd also does not overshadow open world PvE. They are meant for getting expensive prizes and legendary armor, but part of the Raid playerbase is toxic. Not everyone wants to participate in them for purple armor, so balancing professions for Raid comps is not a priority. Sorry.

    Did I miss any concerns?

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Love the idea of a signet of capture, detest the idea of gating it behind crafting.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I get it, you want to sell your idea and are immune to all other opinions.

    I'll just skip over the rest since we're just going to talk in circles and strawmans.
    I'm waiting for someone to give an objective opinion and I am immune to overexaggeration and petty concerns.

    • Balancing single skills x9 does not take more effort than an entire espec x9. There is no way anyone can spin this and be correct.

    Simple math really, 9 skills available to all classes means those 9 skills need to be balanced with every single core AND elite skill in game (given they can interact with any of them and be combined with all of them). Let's make the math simply and simply look at the 4 utility skills which come with every elite specialization compared to say 4 utility skills which get added for every class.

    In case of elite specializations, the 4 skills which get added to each class need to be balanced (with the ability to affect a lot more with elite specializations) against 20 core utility skills of each class. That's a total effort of 9 (amount of classes) x4 (amount of new skills) x20 (current existing core skills) = 720 skills which need to be looked at. You do not have to balance with other elite specializations since elite skills are mutually exclusive. The 4 unique skills per elite would have to be unique, which is extra effort design wise, but less work balance wise. That is without getting into any balance concerns between elite specializations of different classes, which benefit from the closed of nature off elite specializations.

    Now adding 4 skill to core classes accross ALL 9 classes in addition to elite specializations comes out as 9x4x28 (core+8 utility skills from elite specializations) = 1,008 total skills which need to get looked at accross all classes. The only benefit, the skills are carbon copies of each other which means it is easier to design them, and a hell of a lot harder to balance them. That is again not taking into account how these skills interact with different elite specializations between classes and how some might be very powerful with 1 class and near useless with another. Say a single of these new skills were a stealth ability? Of minor consequence on mesmer or thief, quite a significant change on any other class. Or let's assume the skill provides a block or aegis. Can you imagine a thief or mesmer with even more skills which provide enemies with trboule hitting them? Where for a firebrand it would barely matter since nearly all their skills grant aegis to begin with.

    That's without accounting for healing skills, elite skills, future elite specializations. The chances of ever receiving more core class skills in this game is near 0, and there is a reason for that.

    I'm unsure how better to explain multiplicative effort and workload versus additive effort and workload. Adding ANYTHING to core classes ripples through ALL elite specializations best seen in class reworks in the past which made elite specializations reworks necessary. Adding anything accross all classes is very hard to balance due to the very different focus and approach of how classes perform. Unless of corse made very useless, which I have mentioned already.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    • Thinking having to kill a single boss for a certain skill is grief-worthy is petty. There is plenty of content in this game that requires you to kill multiple specific bosses to complete a collection. And this idea only requires you to have 500 jeweler and kill a specific boss for a specific skill. Assuming multiple skills are available for your profession to capture, you are not in any way REQUIRED to have it because that's how horizontal progression in this game works.

    That's your opinion. As others have stated, not ever player is into the same things and the current system has been adapted to work with all 3 game modes.

    Going to skip the remaining comments since I neither value 1 game mode over another, nor do I agree with your opinion. It is your opinion though and you have every right to it.

  • Okay then answer me this. Which is more:
    12 traits + 6 utilities + 5 weapon skills + 1 profession mechanic (including reworks, tweaks and overhauls)
    or
    1 skill
    Because both get balanced against the same things. (9 professions x 2 especs)

    That's your opinion.

    Not really. Blunt observations are not opinions. I was able to disregard most of your comment because your argument boils down to increased workload and that is completely false. The amount of impact the content this system would bring is negligible because the system is designed in a way that prevents that, so long as anet can balance the skills properly. Again, I would agree with you if anet really sucked at their job. But they do not and any issues that come from this are just personal gripes. Subjective opinions.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Zacchary.6183 said:

    Okay then answer me this. Which is more:
    12 traits + 6 utilities + 5 weapon skills + 1 profession mechanic (including reworks, tweaks and overhauls)
    or
    1 skill
    Because both get balanced against the same things. (9 professions x 2 especs)

    I don't know, how many skills are we talking about now? You seem to be jumping back and forth between what your idea is here for:
    You in your original message:

    To make the Capture system clear:
    1. Have a 500 Jeweler craft a Signet of Capture.
    2. Use the Signet of Capture to gain a temporary Utility Skill called Signet of Capture.
    3. Equip Signet of Capture.
    4. Fight a specific boss.
    5. Signet of Capture skill turns into another skill upon the boss' death.
    6. Equip new skill at your leisure.
    7. Repeat.

    indicating that this idea is for the implenentatio of multiple skills.
    You in your first reply to me:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Or one set of 9 obtainable skills released maybe bimonthly at the earliest? I would rather fine tune a few things than spend over a year getting each elite spec as close to balance as possible.

    once again indicating that you are suggesting multiple skills be added.
    You later mentioning up to 25 skills:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    If there were, say, 25 skills available for your character to capture and you only really wanted 5 of them then you have that choice. Or you could get them all done. Or you could work on them at your leisure.

    now talking about a total amount of 25 skills being implemented.

    So, how disingenious do you want to lead this conversation? I gave you a very simple mathematical problem showing how a similar amount of skills vastly increase workload and it increases exponentially in one scenario. So as to answer your question as honest as possible: introducing 1 or maybe 2 skills to core classes would create slightly less work at this point in time (with only 2 elite specializations per class). This would not hold true past a third skill and would also not hold true for 2 skills in case of a third elite specialization accross all classes.

    Given you have yourself decided that your idea is only for the implementation of 1 skill, again as mentioned 3 or 4 times by now from me, that could work on a limited basis for some story related skill.

    I think I've made my point. I don't see any reason to continue this discussion with someone who flipflops so dishonest between his idea as he sees fit (first it's about some skills, then about 9 skills bimonthly, then 25 skills, then 1 skill). Make up your mind what this idea is for, then maybe you can start working on the issues it creates.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    The amount of impact the content this system would bring is negligible because the system is designed in a way that prevents that, so long as anet can balance the skills properly. Again, I would agree with you if anet really sucked at their job. But they do not and any issues that come from this are just personal gripes. Subjective opinions.

    Skill developement and the workload surrounding them does not end once the skills are implemented. As such your idea for multiple skills added to core classes still creates more workload and hassle. Nor does the cop out that Arenanet will manage just fine. Balancing the game and skills requires resources devoted to it or the quality suffers. Past balance under easier conditions does not mean future balance will keep the standard (if we assume Arenanet is doing a great job at balance currently), especially if blowing up the work required.

    Yes, Arenanet have created a system which keeps some of the work in check. It's called elite specializations and the skills being exclusive to each other.

    You want your signet of capture idea implemented in the current system? Have the next elite specialization set acquire skills that way. Then you only have to deal with the part of the playerbase which dislikes the idea, but balance workload remains the same for the developers as if they had simply added a third elite specialization with the current system.

  • Zacchary.6183Zacchary.6183 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I don't know, how many skills are we talking about now? You seem to be jumping back and forth between what your idea is here for:

    You in your original message:

    To make the Capture system clear:
    1. Have a 500 Jeweler craft a Signet of Capture.
    2. Use the Signet of Capture to gain a temporary Utility Skill called Signet of Capture.
    3. Equip Signet of Capture.
    4. Fight a specific boss.
    5. Signet of Capture skill turns into another skill upon the boss' death.
    6. Equip new skill at your leisure.
    7. Repeat.

    indicating that this idea is for the implenentatio of multiple skills.
    You in your first reply to me:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    Or one set of 9 obtainable skills released maybe bimonthly at the earliest? I would rather fine tune a few things than spend over a year getting each elite spec as close to balance as possible.

    once again indicating that you are suggesting multiple skills be added.
    You later mentioning up to 25 skills:

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    If there were, say, 25 skills available for your character to capture and you only really wanted 5 of them then you have that choice. Or you could get them all done. Or you could work on them at your leisure.

    now talking about a total amount of 25 skills being implemented.

    Because you are mixing up comparisons and examples. Do you honestly think anet is going to suddenly dump a bunch of skills in at once? Do you honestly think they are bad enough as developers to do that to themselves? Stop being intellectually dishonest.

    So, how disingenious do you want to lead this conversation? I gave you a very simple mathematical problem showing how a similar amount of skills vastly increase workload and it increases exponentially in one scenario. So as to answer your question as honest as possible: introducing 1 or maybe 2 skills to core classes would create slightly less work at this point in time (with only 2 elite specializations per class). This would not hold true past a third skill and would also not hold true for 2 skills in case of a third elite specialization accross all classes.

    You didn't simplify anything. You made a convoluted math problem to justify one skill = an entire espec. Did you ever stop to think that EACH item in an espec gets balanced on an individual basis or do you honestly believe an espec is one thing? This is why I made the comparison. Developing and balancing 1 skill per profession != the workload of balancing or rebalancing an entire espec per profession.

    I think I've made my point. I don't see any reason to continue this discussion with someone who flipflops so dishonest between his idea as he sees fit (first it's about some skills, then about 9 skills bimonthly, then 25 skills, then 1 skill). Make up your mind what this idea is for, then maybe you can start working on the issues it creates.

    I'm sorry you're having trouble discerning comparisons and examples. Maybe next time I should label them. And again, this system allows gradual additions so thinking that anet is going to pull 100+ skills out of thin air is disingenuous in itself.

    @Zacchary.6183 said:
    The amount of impact the content this system would bring is negligible because the system is designed in a way that prevents that, so long as anet can balance the skills properly. Again, I would agree with you if anet really sucked at their job. But they do not and any issues that come from this are just personal gripes. Subjective opinions.

    Skill developement and the workload surrounding them does not end once the skills are implemented.

    I already explained this. Its called cyclical balance. Anet balances, players find new meta, meta causes imbalance, repeat. This is not an argument.

    Yes, Arenanet have created a system which keeps some of the work in check. It's called elite specializations and the skills being exclusive to each other.

    No, it is the framework of the game's combat system and anet's balancing capabilities that limits anything added to the game. Especs are addons to the professions, not framework.

    You want your signet of capture idea implemented in the current system? Have the next elite specialization set acquire skills that way. Then you only have to deal with the part of the playerbase which dislikes the idea, but balance workload remains the same for the developers as if they had simply added a third elite specialization with the current system.

    1. I already talked about espec-only skills.
    2. Years ago, anet listened to the players and nearly destroyed 2 professions because they listened to players gripes. Recently they implemented ascended cooking which was something regularly requested years ago. Each time they cater to a group, another group complains. That's the way of life. Sooner or later everyone settles and accepts it.

    Unless you have some real concerns, I agree we're done here.

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