Bubbles - Elder Dragon of water and secrets? Or: Why Taimi forgot his name — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Bubbles - Elder Dragon of water and secrets? Or: Why Taimi forgot his name

After I checked out WP's video () about the "Bound by Blood" Magazine, I saw an interesting comment about Taimi. In the video they talked about the possibility that Bubbles might be an enormous threat so that Jormag wants to provide help and persuades us to join him to grant us help in return.
Taimi said in one instance (LS 3) she forgot the name of one ED:

After exiting the simulation
Character name: Outside a few monkey anomalies, the room was very impressive. Next time, you'll have to program in some Jormag minions.
Character name: Any idea what's happening with the other Elder Dragons?
Taimi: Nothing on Kralkatorrik, and ditto for... Oh, what's its name? Brain malfunction. Starts with an s...?.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi's_Game

That must be Bubbles because we already knew the names of all the other ED's. And here's what one comment under WP's video stated:

Abaddon was the god of water and secrets. His influence overran and claimed the Realm of Torment, and pieces of the Realm began to spill over into Tyria. The Chinese manuscript talks about Abaddon being beautiful once, and then he became dark and corrupted by something, presumably the Realm of Torment and his fight with Arachnia. After his fall, Kormir gave up the portfolio of water for an unknown reason, and it was later picked up by Lyssa for safekeeping. Why? And now we have talk about the water dragon being very much eldritch horror themed? I wonder if the water dragon became corrupted by the realm of torment, or by Adaddon's influence, or if the two are linked to Nightfall somehow. Selbbub, the dragon of water and secrets?

Even though I doubt that an ED got "corrupted" like this, the comment made me think about the relation of water and secrets in the Guild Wars lore.

So here's what I'm thinking: What if part of Bubbles magic is that everyone forgets information about him? Just like the Silence, for every Doctor Who fan out there. That would explain why we have so few details about him, just a few Canthan sailors told stories about strange things happening in the Unending Ocean. It would also fit thematically (deep water - bad sight - washing away stuff (like memories) - secret). Taimi wouldn't forget the name of an ED and I doubt she is lying to us - so it might be part of their (Bubble's) magic? So Sailors knew something happened but we never actually got a proof that it has something to do with an ED. Maybe just nobody is able to remember them or information about them (e.g. their name, appearance, whatever).
Finally this might fit the Cthulhu themed horror style the Devs mentioned in their announcement.
Just imagine fighting an enemy no one is able to remember - but everyone knows is there. Imagine story instances in which even we as the player don't know what happened because the screen gets black and our PC "teleported" to another location as soon as we are able "to see" again - just because the PC can't remember, too. Just imagine the ways one could portray this in game play. And maybe that's the reason, we might ending up joining Jormag? Maybe Bubbles is the threat they were warning about in the trailer? Maybe Bubbles is one of the "trials to come".
What are you guys thinking about this?

Comments

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    Taimi forgot because ArenaNet a) doesn't want to reveal the name or b) haven't made a name they feel is fitting.

    It's a running gag that's no longer funny at this point, like Drooburt's involvement in all the festivals.


    The DSD being a perfect line-up with Abaddon's domains is unlikely, as no other Elder Dragon makes a perfect 1:1 match with the gods, and ArenaNet has stated multiple times now that there's no direct relation between the two. They even point out in PoF that the Elder Dragons can be beyond the Six Gods' power, indicating that the gods wouldn't be able to dramatically alter the Elder Dragons (thus tossing out the theory of Abaddon's influence infecting the DSD).

    And that line about the DSD "now" being an eldritch horror - all of the Elder Dragons were always eldritch horrors.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The DSD being a perfect line-up with Abaddon's domains is unlikely, as no other Elder Dragon makes a perfect 1:1 match with the gods, and ArenaNet has stated multiple times now that there's no direct relation between the two.

    Not saying Bubbles and Abaddon are 1:1 matches (like the comment I quoted suggests) but rather that the comment made me think about Bubbles domains of magic ;)

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Taimi forgot because ArenaNet a) doesn't want to reveal the name or b) haven't made a name they feel is fitting.

    It's a running gag that's no longer funny at this point, like Drooburt's involvement in all the festivals.


    The DSD being a perfect line-up with Abaddon's domains is unlikely, as no other Elder Dragon makes a perfect 1:1 match with the gods, and ArenaNet has stated multiple times now that there's no direct relation between the two. They even point out in PoF that the Elder Dragons can be beyond the Six Gods' power, indicating that the gods wouldn't be able to dramatically alter the Elder Dragons (thus tossing out the theory of Abaddon's influence infecting the DSD).

    And that line about the DSD "now" being an eldritch horror - all of the Elder Dragons were always eldritch horrors.

    Or Taimi forgot because a DEV misplaced the list of names and now there is a frantic search being canceled with these obfuscations of Mystery. :) just a thought LOL

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Taimi forgot because ArenaNet a) doesn't want to reveal the name or b) haven't made a name they feel is fitting.

    One already exists. Cthulhu. Why settle for the lesser evil? ;)

  • whatever they call it in story, from now on it's called 'Bubbles' as far as I'm concerned

  • RyuDragnier.9476RyuDragnier.9476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Riffing off these ideas, interesting concept is that Selbbub's domains could be water and memory. There's some juicy thematic/narrative potential there, and it could easily fill the role of a "secrets" domain with some added oomph. But it would totally account for why information about the DSD "doesn't exist," or why stories surrounding it are cloudy and vague at best.

    That makes me wonder why DSD hasn't made an appearance yet. Is it because it's heavily in combat with the Largos who are probably immune to its power and keeping it at bay? Does it not care about anywhere other than its current location? Or is it smart enough to know it can outlive us and thus only needs to wait another hundred years?

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    Well, as far as we’ve seen, EDs don’t move far very often. Kralkatorrik by far was the most mobile, and only near the very end. Primordus moved to the fire island chain to consume more of Mordremoth’s magic. Otherwise they seem fairly stationary as far as we’ve known them.

    So, I could imagine the DSD is similar, sticking to one area of the ocean and sending their minions out from there. Also, the ocean is incredibly expansive. If the DSD is moving around, it could go all over the planet without us really having any idea. All we know is there are several races pushed out of the deep ocean by the DSD, but we don’t strictly know where exactly they came from. The “Unending Ocean” is what tyrians call all the major bodies of water on the planet, so it doesn’t help us pinpoint much.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And that line about the DSD "now" being an eldritch horror - all of the Elder Dragons were always eldritch horrors.

    Perhaps in the Vanilla game, this might have been true. Interacting with Mordremoth and Kralk directly was a mistake, since it gave them clear discernable motives and fears... which isn't very eldritch like, if you ask me. They were just villains to be slain by the hero.

  • @Westenev.5289 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And that line about the DSD "now" being an eldritch horror - all of the Elder Dragons were always eldritch horrors.

    Perhaps in the Vanilla game, this might have been true. Interacting with Mordremoth and Kralk directly was a mistake, since it gave them clear discernable motives and fears... which isn't very eldritch like, if you ask me. They were just villains to be slain by the hero.

    Having goals doesn't make something less eldritch, nor does allowing them to speak. And neither Mordremoth nor Kralkatorrik had established fears (just a misinterpretation of fear in Kralk's case); though adding fear would make them less-eldritch.

    Ultimately, an "eldritch horror" is a creature that defies logic, and is most often portrayed as a creature of unknown origins, capabilities, and seemingly limitless potential. Even with motivations and personalities added to them, the Elder Dragons still fit what makes an eldritch horror so at its core value. And I'd say an ancient creature of crystal and rock that bleeds, is from pre-history, and devours reality as we know it fulfills the "defies logic, unknown origins, capabilities, and limitless potential" qualities.

    It's just that, because Guild Wars 2 is a Teen rated game, there's limit to how far they can go into the horror aspect, and because of their release style, there's a limit on the design capabilities.

    If anything truly hinders their ability to be eldritch horrors, it's that they can be defeated or that they have unique weaknesses. But we can't quite have a game if the main antagonists are immortal and cannot be overpowered by any means. That's an innate limitation on using eldritch horrors as the antagonist in any media, but especially so in games.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And that line about the DSD "now" being an eldritch horror - all of the Elder Dragons were always eldritch horrors.

    Perhaps in the Vanilla game, this might have been true. Interacting with Mordremoth and Kralk directly was a mistake, since it gave them clear discernable motives and fears... which isn't very eldritch like, if you ask me. They were just villains to be slain by the hero.

    Having goals doesn't make something less eldritch, nor does allowing them to speak. And neither Mordremoth nor Kralkatorrik had established fears (just a misinterpretation of fear in Kralk's case); though adding fear would make them less-eldritch.

    Ultimately, an "eldritch horror" is a creature that defies logic, and is most often portrayed as a creature of unknown origins, capabilities, and seemingly limitless potential. Even with motivations and personalities added to them, the Elder Dragons still fit what makes an eldritch horror so at its core value. And I'd say an ancient creature of crystal and rock that bleeds, is from pre-history, and devours reality as we know it fulfills the "defies logic, unknown origins, capabilities, and limitless potential" qualities.

    It's just that, because Guild Wars 2 is a Teen rated game, there's limit to how far they can go into the horror aspect, and because of their release style, there's a limit on the design capabilities.

    If anything truly hinders their ability to be eldritch horrors, it's that they can be defeated or that they have unique weaknesses. But we can't quite have a game if the main antagonists are immortal and cannot be overpowered by any means. That's an innate limitation on using eldritch horrors as the antagonist in any media, but especially so in games.

    The problem is that there's nothing inconceivable about the Elder Dragons. Sure, they're powerful... but we live in a world where everything they do can be researched, studied and (eventually) understood. They have discernible personas, and follow tactics and motives that can be predicted (eat magic, then kill the mortals) - so I don't consider them any more alien or mysterious than Queen Jennah.

  • That's the thing about eldritch horrors though, and why they make a poor primary antagonist in an action game. Enough exposure to anything will offer enough time and chances to study and, eventually, understand it. Even the modern trope-defining eldritch horrors like Cthulhu. Any plot with an eldritch horror that resolves by directly defeating that horror will inevitably mean it's no longer an eldritch horror by the end of the plot.

    The reason why Lovecraft's works did so well while encorporating eldritch horrors was because they weren't exposed long enough, and they weren't directly confronted most of the times (when they were, it was by sub-optimal means compared to the vast creatures). Continuations by others in the setting that don't "feel right" are usually so because, in the end, the lovecraftian beasts are defeated or injured by mortal means.

    I do think that the Elder Dragons fit perfectly within the scope of eldritch horrors, but that eldritch horrors don't have the same feeling when they're presented as directly confronted antagonists.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Memory/forgetting as a domain would be interesting. Reminds me of Ondra from the pillars of eternity setting. Aside from the sea her domains include mourning and forgetting/the weight of memory.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Memory/forgetting as a domain would be interesting. Reminds me of Ondra from the pillars of eternity setting. Aside from the sea her domains include mourning and forgetting/the weight of memory.

    Yeah, that's an interesting/uncanny combo. I think it makes sense as a pairing - water and memory. Or perhaps even water and knowledge? When you think about it, pools/bowls of water have been used a means of magically "scrying" for information in the real world, so there's some precedent for a supernatural/magical connection between water and knowledge.

  • And in GW1, Eye of the North had a scrying pool for the player to find where to go. i totally agree that would be an interesting combo.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Memory/forgetting as a domain would be interesting. Reminds me of Ondra from the pillars of eternity setting. Aside from the sea her domains include mourning and forgetting/the weight of memory.

    Yeah, that's an interesting/uncanny combo. I think it makes sense as a pairing - water and memory. Or perhaps even water and knowledge? When you think about it, pools/bowls of water have been used a means of magically "scrying" for information in the real world, so there's some precedent for a supernatural/magical connection between water and knowledge.

    We've already got crystal dragons with scrying or "crystal ball" abilities so I doubt it's that. More has to do with the way water erodes and washes away stuff having to do with forgetting I think.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Memory/forgetting as a domain would be interesting. Reminds me of Ondra from the pillars of eternity setting. Aside from the sea her domains include mourning and forgetting/the weight of memory.

    Yeah, that's an interesting/uncanny combo. I think it makes sense as a pairing - water and memory. Or perhaps even water and knowledge? When you think about it, pools/bowls of water have been used a means of magically "scrying" for information in the real world, so there's some precedent for a supernatural/magical connection between water and knowledge.

    We've already got crystal dragons with scrying or "crystal ball" abilities so I doubt it's that. More has to do with the way water erodes and washes away stuff having to do with forgetting I think.

    I was thinking that myself, but isn’t Glint’s “prophecy” more future-sight where scrying is more... immediate knowledge of the present that’s taking place elsewhere? Anyway, I think knowledge or memory could work as an interesting secondary domain for the DSD, if only for the potential ability to magically influence the memory or learning retention of others (like Taimi “forgetting” its name). All just speculation ofc.

    Perhaps I’m thinking too much of D&D 5e.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    Anyone who's played the Old Hunters DLC from Bloodborne knows these themes are so intertwined, and that this dragon is likely the most threatening and overarching of all. It could unveil everything to be a nightmare with no escape. I'm disappointed killing dragons has no impact on the world other than 'stability'. What if killing Zhaitan prevented death, for Mordremoth everyone loses their higher self/ego, as though their symbolic identity disappears in a tangible way. Bubbles/Steve would be harrowing, but killing it would mean fear and the difference between reality/dreams no longer exists.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

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