Redesigning Tactics Specialization: A Holistic Approach to Support Warrior (Longbow/Warhorn/Shouts) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Redesigning Tactics Specialization: A Holistic Approach to Support Warrior (Longbow/Warhorn/Shouts)

Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 18, 2019 in Warrior

Notice: A Work in Progress. And as always, all numbers here are just placeholders to give a general picture of how it might be like. While they are of course open to discussion, please also let me know how you think about the ideas proposed here.

Framework

  • To retain the identity of the existing traits and associated utility and weapon skills, and:
  • To develop unique, thematically and functionally interesting identity further upon and around what we currently have.
  • To use only existing mechanics and effects for best applicability.
  • To introduce a new role, particularly for though not limited to WvW.
  1. Identity: What Does It Mean to 'Support'?
    Here is a list of notable functions and effects the Tactics specialization and its associated skills provide:

    • Soft CC — Fear and Weakness ('Fear Me!'), Blind (Smoldering Arrow)
    • Recon — Revealed effect ('On My Mark!')
    • Are of effect spam — (Longbow skills)
    • Empowering allies — Empowered, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength, Warhorn skills and 'For Great Justice!'
    • Recovery — Cleansing ('Shake/Shrug It Off!', Warhorn skills) & Healing (Vigorous Shouts)
    • Singling out targets — Immobilize (Pin Down), Vulnerability ('On My Marks!')
  2. To Differentiate Thematically
    From here we can see, unlike the fourth specialization of other professions (with their focus primarily on recovery), Tactics and its associated skills provides a wide variety of functions, many of them directed to foes instead of allies, to preemptively mitigate incoming damage by hindering enemy effectiveness in combat, to reinforce allies' capability of offense, and to create opportunity to pressure on the opponents in order to lift the pressure from allies.

    • Such a mix of both offensive and defensive functions, both in effect help with the allies sustain on the battlefield, differentiate itself from, say, Guardian, with its function heavily skewed toward building up group defense. Warrior, on the other hand, supports its allies in a much more flexible way.
    • The way the specialization support its allies is also different from, say, Banners, being more demanding on timing to perform on call (particularly Shouts and Warhorn; audio cues, specific, responsive), instead of to maintain the effectiveness and to standardize via good Discipline (Banners; visual cues, general, long-lasting).
    • The skirmish aspect is also different from Ranger's Skirmish, with the later more focused on being evasive, while one the hand Warrior being more suppressive, particularly with Longbow.
  3. Deciding the Themes
    Inspired by real world military tactics, I'd propose three sets of traits, each taking a horizontal line in the specialization.

    • The first line will be skirmishing and tactical maneuver, with its focus on disrupting enemy formation (Taunt), suppression before clashing in melee (Longbow) and envelopment. (Bonus on Flanking). (Similar to Light/Medium Cavalry IRL)
    • The second line will be frontal shock action and routing, with its focus on preparation (Might sharing), shock effect (soft CC upon disabling) and taking down routing or lagging enemies (immobilization). (Similar to Heavy Cavalry IRL)
    • The third line will be reserved for functions that help allies recover and reorganize, taking in the good old traits for Shouts and Warhorn and to enhance them further.

Traits

Minor Traits

  • Adept, minor: Vanguard — Striking an invisible enemy reveals enemies around you. (Revealed for 3 s with CD 45 s within a radius of 600. If multiple enemies are hit by a single strike, they all get revealed. The radius limit is meant to prevent people from exploiting the range of Longbow or Rifle and spam AoE around.)
  • Master, minor: — Element of Surprise — Grant Might to allies when you enter combat. (6 stacks for 6 s; numbers of allies: 5). Attacking enemies from its flank or behind grants might to your allies. (1 stacks for 4 s with no ICD; numbers of allies: 5) (Edit: Sep. 10th, based on feedback by @RedShark.9548)
  • Gradmaster, minor: Rearguard — Reduce incoming damage while reviving. Heal and grant might to nearby allies when you rally or successfully revive someone. (Previously Determined Revival and Reviver's Might mergerd together.)

Scrapped ideas:
Vigorous Rehabilitation — Grant Vigor to allies when you use a healing skill. (Duration 8 s)
Grant Might (3 stacks for 10 s) to allies and Slow down foes (for 3 s) around you upon entering combat. hitting an enemy from side of behind. (ICD: 30 s)
Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%) Edit on Sep. 8th: Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in their comment below)

Major Traits

Skirmishing and Maneuver

  • Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Fear you deal becomes Taunt. Enemies feared or taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)
  • Master: Fire for Effect (previously Burning Arrows) — Dual shot causes burning and longbow skills recharge faster. (Unchanged.) Smoldering Arrow becomes Smoldering Sulfur, in addition to its previous effect, creatings an AoE that pulses Weakening and Poison each second for 1 s over 2 s. (Total number of application: 3)
  • Grandmaster: Pincer Movement — Deal 10% more damage when attacking from the flank or behind of your foes. Attacking from the flank or behind of your foes cast Lesser 'On My Marks' on them (with the duration of the effects reduced to 3 s; CD 25 s).

Shock, Routing, Chasing down

  • Adept: Line of Departure — When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The sharing effect is again available (refreshed) for 5 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike) (Edited Sep. 9th for better clarity)
  • Master: Shock Tactics — Inflict Slow and Weakness on enemies you disable (3 s with no CD).
  • Grandmaster: Leg Specialist — Immobilize a target when you cripple them with a skill. Targets you crippled are also immobilized (1 s with 5 s ICD; the recharge is set on each individual target that this trait triggers on, as of Thief's Lotus Poison.) Immobilization you cause lasts longer (50%).

Reorganize and Recovery

  • Adept: Quick Breathing — Warhorn skills have an increased number of targets, grant an additional boon. Grant +120 Concentration. (As announced.) Grant 3 stacks of Stability for 5 s with Charge and Resistance for 3 s with Call to Arm.
  • Master: Shrug It Off — Use "Shake It Off!" automatically when you have a number of conditions on you. (Increase conditions cleased to 2; grant Resistance for 2 s.)
  • Grandmaster: Resounding Command Vigorous Shouts — Shouts affect more allies (10), heal them (Skill Coefficient of Healing Power raised from 1.2 to 1.5) and grant adrenaline based on the number of allies affected ( point of Adrenaline is granted per ally. Edited on Sep 8th, proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in their comment below). Shouts recharge faster, and grant Vigor to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9)

Skills

Shouts
The aim of these changes is to address the lack of Boons for allies and to improve the effectiveness of certain under-performing and barely slotted skills. (Edited on Sep. 9th: all boon below are meant to be granted to allies as well; description were modified to clarify such.) All shout skills now grant allies a buff and inflict foes with debuff, to differentiate themselves from their Guardian counterparts.

  • 'To the Limit!' — The skill now grants Vigor (8 s) to allies and inflict Slow (1 s) to your enemies.
  • 'Fear Me!' — The base CD is reduced to 30 s. Grant Retaliation Quickness for 6 s to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9th based on feedback by @Lan Deathrider.5910)
  • 'On My Mark!' — The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grant Quickness 2 stacks Stability for 3 5 s 'On My Mark!' and 1 stack of Stability 2 5 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'. (Edit on Sep. 8th: Alternatively, as @RiyazGuerra.9203 suggested in their comment, the skill could alternatively apply Rend instead.)
  • 'Shake/Shrug It Off!' — In addition to their previous effect, grant Resistance for 2 3 s and 1 2 s respectively. Increase conditions cleansed to 3 and 2 respectively.
  • 'For Great Justice!' — This skill no longer grants Fury. In addition to its previous efefct, apply Weakness (6 s) to your enemies.

A new Shout skill is added to the Elite catergory:

  • 'Dare you not!' — Grant Retaliation (6 s) and Alacrity (3 s) to allies. Enemies around you (600) is Taunted (3 s) and Confused (5 stacks for 5 s). (CD: 30 s)

Warhorn
I am going to quote myself in another thread for the reasoning behind the changes proposed below:

I would so much like to see Stability be added to Charge, so that people actually use it preemptively before clashing into melee, instead of afterward trying to get out of the hot zones. Nowadays, the skill is used more like how Guardian's 'Retreat!' is meant to be (yet mostly is not). Such inconsistency between the actual application of the skill and the intended function suggested by the text always makes me chuckle.
For Call to Arm, just add group Resistance, so that the weapon might actually be regarded viable.

  • Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher. (As announced.) Grant 3 stacks of Stability for 5 s if traited with Quick Breathing
  • Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor. (As announced.) Grant Resistance for 3 s if traited with Quick Breathing.

Longbow
The change is aimed to bring the now under-powered Burst skill in line with other ones.

  • Combustive Shot: Reduce the interval between pulsing direct damage and Burning to 1 s. (Number of pulses is increased to 4, 7, 10 as a result.)

Potential Play Style

  • With Warhorn and Longbow, a possible revival of Marshal attribute combo (++Power, ++Healing, +Precision, +Condition Damage).
  • Potential Hammer Berserker with Tactics to spam Immobilize, Slow and Weakness.
  • A support Warrior build that provides reasonable burst Healing, Barrier and Cleansing with Shouts and Warhorn.
  • A meaningful role in a smaller, secondary 'hit squad' working in coordination with the main group, with its aim to prey upon enemy backliners in WvW.

Comments

  • I think you need to preserve Phalanx Strength and the revival traits somewhere. Every class has a revival trait, although they are usually a major trait.

    Combine Determined Revival with Reviver's Might.
    Combine Inspiring Presence and Phalanx Strength.
    Swap out Shrug it Off for new Determined Revival.

    Have the Minors as follows:

    Adept Minor Gain 120 Concentration, this can be under a condition if 120 concentration in a minor trait is too much
    Master Minor Inspiring Strength: The combined Phalanx Strength and Inspiring Presence
    Grandmaster Minor Resounding Command, when you grant other allies a boon heal them for 100 health (1.1 scaling with Healing Power).

    This way Tactics gives increased boon duration, might to allies when you grant it to yourself, and heals allies for a small amount when you grant them boons.

    I also suggest having Vigorous Shouts raise shout target cap to 10, and to provide adrenaline per ally affected. I am ambivalent on the vigor.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    Very insteresting. I like these changes. Although, I don't think Shake It Off needs any additional effects, it works very well now. What about merging Phalanx Strength and Powerful Synergy traits instead of some new grandmaster trait? As both warhorn skills will probably be blast finishers, it can be pretty good for 4 blasts if traited and some nice might generation, too. Also, what about Empower Allies trait? Maybe merge Empower Allies with current Empowered trait or move it into Strength traitline.

  • RiyazGuerra.9203RiyazGuerra.9203 Member ✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    To boost the healing a bit would it be overpowered to introduce a brief regeneration as opposed to your proposed vigor in Vigorous Shouts? Along with the heal delivered by a shout this would provide a continued healing benefit to allies while your shouts are on cooldown. Either the regen or as Lan Deathstrider recommends, increase number targets of a shout from 5 to 10. Besides, vigor would be covered by your 'Vigorous Rehabilitation' and WH5 Call to Arms.

    Concerns, Questions and Suggestions----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher
    Now if we do aforementioned, your 'Provocative Skirmisher' Adept trait would become highly disruptive if several warriors charge into a zerg firing off their fear/taunt and 10 enemy pcs are locked onto a single warrior for the duration of the taunt. Not sure if Anet would want that but hey I would love to do that haha. Perhaps we could take out the taunt and instead

    Suggested change
    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Enemies feared by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 sec over time and Weakness for 5 sec. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)

    I left taunt there because I really feel taunt (currently supplied by the Spellbreaker's Imminent Threat) should be a core warrior skill and not confined to the Spellbreaker specialization. In addition to making Imminent Threat a core warrior skill, change it to a shout (currently a meditation) for more warrior shout-healing goodness.
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    Grandmaster: Pincer Movement - Lesser 'On My Marks' cast on flanked opponents should definitely count as a shout for more free shout-heals.
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    Shout: 'On My Mark!': The Quickness while an improvement could be replaced with Rend, a condition currently not available to pcs but to an npc in Queen's Gauntlet. From the wiki, the description reads

    Rend
    Toughness is decreased. Stacks intensity.
    Rend is a condition that can only be applied by Masticus, a tier 2 champion in the Queen's Gauntlet.

    This could turn 'On My Mark' into a valuable tool to threaten builds with high toughness. The wiki description is not very descriptive but this or a new skill like it would need the 'toughness-strip' to be carefully calibrated.

    Suggested change
    'On My Mark!': The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grants Rend for 3 s for 'On My Mark!' and 2 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'.
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    I don't feel 'Leg Specialist' is worthy of a Grandmaster trait, even with your 'Immobilization you cause lasts 50% longer', and is at best a Master Trait. Perhaps we can take out 'Line of Departure' and return Phalanx Strength at the Grandmaster trait level

    Line: Shock, Routing, Chasing down
    Adept: Leg Specialist — Immobilize a target when you cripple them with a skill. (Unchanged.) Immobilization you cause last longer (50%).
    Master: Shock Tactics — Inflict Slow and Weakness on enemies you disable (3 s with no Cooldown).
    Grandmaster: Phalanx Strength — When you grant yourself might, grant it to nearby allies as well.


    You have a lot of great ideas here and many of which would turn Tactics to a must have in WvW and maybe pvp!

  • Devs have confirmed their intent to rework the Warrior core specialization: Tactics. They have also stated the changes outlined in that forum post are not all the changes planned, so this thread could be a platform for us to shape the final product.

    Let's continue this discussion, any fresh voices out there have anything to comment/suggest on Virtuality's well-thought-out framework?

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I think you need to preserve Phalanx Strength and the revival traits somewhere. Every class has a revival trait, although they are usually a major trait.

    It might be that I missed it, but to my knowledge, at least Revenant, Engineer, Thief and Elementalist do not have a revival related trait in their fourth specialization, and that is 4 out of a total of 9. Such instance was also why I did not feel like including any in my proposal, particularly when the current ones we have are heavily criticized for lack of practicality.

    Phalanx Strength is another thing that I took time to deliberate and eventually decided to leave out. While it is indeed identified to be a significant feature of the specialization we currently have, to boost the effectiveness of offense for allies, I just couldn't help but worry that what we currently have could already be an excess, as none of the fourth specialization of other classes provide as much offensive capability as Tactics do. Still, one might argue that this is exactly what makes warrior unique from other classes, which I wholeheartedly agree.

    I have thus modified my post as the following.

    * Adept: Line of Departure — ~~Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.)~~ Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might _while out of combat_, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)
    

    Let me know what do you think about it!

    Have the Minors as follows:
    Adept Minor Gain 120 Concentration, this can be under a condition if 120 concentration in a minor trait is too much

    We already have that for what is to come to Quick Breathing. While the suggestion is tempting, as far as I know most of the traits that directly grant additional attribute points are associated with a particular weapon, which has good synergy with the provided bonus in attribute. In the case of Tactics spec, I think it'd be a more proper choice to retain the bonus points to Warhorn, particularly when only the last of all three themes in my proposal is centered around Boons.

    Master Minor Inspiring Strength: The combined Phalanx Strength and Inspiring Presence

    Inspiring Presence is another thing that makes no sense to me in terms of the inconsistency of the function the name of the trait suggests and its actual function. Nevertheless, regarding the function of it, I never think it is a good idea to associate Healing Power bonus with Might. In WvW, where boon are constantly corrupted, one would most likely not have a good stack of Might when Healing is desperately needed. The function seems to me only helpful when everything is still in control, while not so much when you really need that extra amount of Healing.

    Grandmaster Minor Resounding Command, when you grant other allies a boon heal them for 100 health (1.1 scaling with Healing Power).

    I actually like this idea. I'd be nice to see allies healed upon being granted with Boons by you. Your suggestion also corrects the problem in my proposal for Grandmaster Minor, providing bonus in Boon Duration while only the last of all three themes in my proposal is centered around Boons. Allow me to include your idea into the OP as the following.

    * Gradmaster, minor: Resounding Command — Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%) Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in his comment below)
    

    I also suggest having Vigorous Shouts raise shout target cap to 10, and to provide adrenaline per ally affected. I am ambivalent on the vigor.

    I am not so sure if a 10 ally Condition Cleansing or 10 target Fear would not be considered overpowered. Though it does seem to be a good idea to have the adrenaline gained though Shouts scale according to numbers of affected allies. OP has been modified as the following:

    * Grandmaster: Vigorous Shouts — Shouts heal allies and grant adrenaline based on the number of allies affected (Edited on Sep 8th, proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in their comment below). Shouts recharge faster. (Skill Coefficient raised from 1.2 to 1.5) Shouts grant Vigor to allies.
    
  • @cryorion.9532 said:
    Very insteresting. I like these changes. Although, I don't think Shake It Off needs any additional effects, it works very well now. What about merging Phalanx Strength and Powerful Synergy traits instead of some new grandmaster trait? As both warhorn skills will probably be blast finishers, it can be pretty good for 4 blasts if traited and some nice might generation, too. Also, what about Empower Allies trait? Maybe merge Empower Allies with current Empowered trait or move it into Strength traitline.

    Part of the reason I added Boons to every single Shout skill is to address the lack of both source and variety of Boons to allies by Warrior.

    As for Phalanx Strength, I have included it in a modified fashion as the following:

    * Adept: Line of Departure — ~~Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.)~~ Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might _while out of combat_, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)
    

    Let me know what do you think about it!

    On Powerful Synergy, I have always been quite against the trait, for that in WvW or any other group contents there will be constantly new ally AoE stacking one on top of another, rendering the result of Combo Finishers extremely random. And that is the reason why I entirely leave out this one.

    On Empower Allies and Empowered, allow me to quote myself in my previous comment:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Phalanx Strength is another thing that I took time to deliberate and eventually decided to leave out. While it is indeed identified to be a significant feature of the specialization we currently have, to boost the effectiveness of offense for allies, I just couldn't help but worry that what we currently have could already be an excess, as none of the fourth specialization of other classes provide as much offensive capability as Tactics do. Still, one might argue that this is exactly what makes warrior unique from other classes, which I wholeheartedly agree.

    And thanks for showing your interest!

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @RiyazGuerra.9203 said:
    To boost the healing a bit would it be overpowered to introduce a brief regeneration as opposed to your proposed vigor in Vigorous Shouts? Along with the heal delivered by a shout this would provide a continued healing benefit to allies while your shouts are on cooldown. Either the regen or as Lan Deathstrider recommends, increase number targets of a shout from 5 to 10. Besides, vigor would be covered by your 'Vigorous Rehabilitation' and WH5 Call to Arms.

    Regeneration is a bit weak in WvW in my opinion. It is a trickle of Healing that takes time to have significant effect, if any at all, and is prone to be interrupted with Boon Corruption. I have edited my proposal based on Lan Deathstrider's comment as below:

    * Gradmaster, minor: Resounding Command — ~~Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%)~~ Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in his comment below)
    

    Concerns, Questions and Suggestions----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher
    Now if we do aforementioned, your 'Provocative Skirmisher' Adept trait would become highly disruptive if several warriors charge into a zerg firing off their fear/taunt and 10 enemy pcs are locked onto a single warrior for the duration of the taunt. Not sure if Anet would want that but hey I would love to do that haha. Perhaps we could take out the taunt and instead
    Suggested change
    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Enemies feared by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 sec over time and Weakness for 5 sec. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)

    I left taunt there because I really feel taunt (currently supplied by the Spellbreaker's Imminent Threat) should be a core warrior skill and not confined to the Spellbreaker specialization. In addition to making Imminent Threat a core warrior skill, change it to a shout (currently a meditation) for more warrior shout-healing goodness.

    The original idea under my proposal was that, since in WvW Warrior shines at pressuring enemy backline in a group fight, particularly when there are two groups and the Warrior is in the secondary group, acting as the hammer against the anvil, i.e., the primary one, then why not develop upon such aspect?

    The disruptive nature is meant to be a Stability check, particularly after the most recent announced nerf hammer dropped on Guardian's 'Stand Your Ground!' (5 stacks of Stability reduced to 3). Together with that, this could hopefully help with culling the disproportional high amount of backliners supported by a small group of Firebrand.

    Another reason I propose Taunt is that I'd like to see enemy attention being redirected to the second group at its flank and thus alleviating pressure on the primary group, instead of pushing them further toward the primary group of which they were already dropping AoEs on top.

    Honestly, I too would like to see more source of Taunt introduced to core Warrior. The condition just fit the daring, challenging and provocative image of this class so well.

    Grandmaster: Pincer Movement - Lesser 'On My Marks' cast on flanked opponents should definitely count as a shout for more free shout-heals.

    I supposed it'd certainly do if the proposal is approved and actually implemented, as 'Shrug It Off!' does.

    Shout: 'On My Mark!': The Quickness while an improvement could be replaced with Rend, a condition currently not available to pcs but to an npc in Queen's Gauntlet. From the wiki, the description reads

    Rend
    Toughness is decreased. Stacks intensity.
    Rend is a condition that can only be applied by Masticus, a tier 2 champion in the Queen's Gauntlet.

    This could turn 'On My Mark' into a valuable tool to threaten builds with high toughness. The wiki description is not very descriptive but this or a new skill like it would need the 'toughness-strip' to be carefully calibrated.

    Suggested change
    'On My Mark!': The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grants Rend for 3 s for 'On My Mark!' and 2 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'.

    I am not familiar with the effect, but wouldn't it be a bit overpowered if the effect cannot be cleansed as conditions are? Nevertheless it's pretty interesting. I have included it as an alternative in the OP.

    I don't feel 'Leg Specialist' is worthy of a Grandmaster trait, even with your 'Immobilization you cause lasts 50% longer', and is at best a Master Trait. Perhaps we can take out 'Line of Departure' and return Phalanx Strength at the Grandmaster trait level

    I also debated against myself on this one. At first I came up with the idea to enhance Immobilize and to put it at Grandmaster in regard to the overall nerf on Cleansing in the recently announced proposal by the developers. The effect itself might not qualify as a Grandmaster trait, though I still hope that it would in effect deserve the place it occupies relatively to the expected reduction of condition management.

    As for Phalanx Strength, I have included it in a modified fashion as the following:

    * Adept: Line of Departure — ~~Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.)~~ Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might _while out of combat_, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)
    

    Let me know what you think about it!

    You have a lot of great ideas here and many of which would turn Tactics to a must have in WvW and maybe pvp!

    And thank you for showing your interest!

  • Let me clarify a few things. The 10 target cap thing on Vigorous Shouts is for the allies affected by the shout. So Fear Me and On My Mark would affect 10 allies with their healing and adrenaline gain for the warrior.

    This is so that in high end PvE and medium to large scale WvW you can build adrenaline quickly. Several shouts are on an ammo system, so every 4 seconds you can pop 10 Adrenaline, per such shout. given that there are 10 allies nearby. Vigorous Shouts also needs either better healing scaling or a higher base heal to be useful as a healing build, something like 10-20% increase depending on game mode.

    Phalanx Strength is a fairly useful trait, its just been neutered for a while. It would be better if it were made into a complete boon sharing trait (as in Warrior gets a boon, everyone else gets a boon in the same what it works now for might. They already keep it from getting into an infinite loop with another warrior). Phalanx Strength can also be better if it is incorporated into Inspiring Presence as it is now to become a better trait. The healing power increase is there to aid in shout builds, so if you want to get rid of that then Vigorous Shouts will need even better scaling or base healing than I recommend above otherwise you'll be nerfing Vigorous Shouts by proxy. Also if you are nerfing might sharing to be solely out of combat then you need to increase the amount of might you share otherwise its rather wimpy, not to mention over complicating it by having a conditional refresh on vigor gain.

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    i miss support war so much in pvp, i missed the shoutbow day, it was so skill based

  • RiyazGuerra.9203RiyazGuerra.9203 Member ✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Regeneration is a bit weak in WvW in my opinion. It is a trickle of Healing that takes time to have significant effect, if any at all, and is prone to be interrupted with Boon Corruption. I have edited my proposal based on Lan Deathstrider's comment as below:

    • Grandmaster, minor: Resounding Command — Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%) Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in his comment below)

    Maybe to just keep it simple, I retract my request to add regeneration and I also don't think we should go the heal-allies-when-give-them-boon route and just do as Lan Deathstrider suggests:

    Vigorous Shouts also needs either better healing scaling or a higher base heal to be useful as a healing build, something like 10-20% increase depending on game mode.

    This change to the shout's base heal in addition to the shouts that reflexively trigger based on ingame conditions (I like to call them freebie-shouts) ie 'Shrug it off' should provide enough healing.
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    Next point.

    The disruptive nature is meant to be a Stability check, particularly after the most recent announced nerf hammer dropped on Guardian's 'Stand Your Ground!' (5 stacks of Stability reduced to 3). Together with that, this could hopefully help with culling the disproportional high amount of backliners supported by a small group of Firebrand.

    I see your intended gameplay function and it is a valid one. My concern is that by changing the fear to a taunt we will dramatically alter the 'Fear Me' skill from it's original intent, which would be disruption as well as an opportunity to escape / shed dps on the source. Maybe it should not change 'Fear Me' and let us agree that 'Imminent Threat' or some other taunt skill should be a core warrior skill. The trait could be changed to

    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Enemies taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)
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    I am not familiar with the effect (Rend), but wouldn't it be a bit overpowered if the effect cannot be cleansed as conditions are?

    Hell yeah it would, it would have to be a condition that could be cleansed like any other.
    .
    .
    .

    As for Phalanx Strength, I have included it in a modified fashion as the following:

    • Adept: Line of Departure — Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.) Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)

    I kind of agree with Lan Deathstriker on this one

    Also if you are nerfing might sharing to be solely out of combat then you need to increase the amount of might you share otherwise its rather wimpy, not to mention over complicating it by having a conditional refresh on vigor gain.

    Personally I am not wedded to the idea that Warriors must have Phalanx Strength but if we had to lose it then putting a 'diminished Phalanx Strength' alternative in a minor trait is the way to go. Tying it to 'entering combat' or vigor gain I think should not be the way to introduce might to you and your allies, perhaps we can tie might-sharing to your burst skills?

    Adept, minor: Impressionable Strike — Grant Might (5 stacks for 10 s) to allies when you use a burst skill. Cooldown: 8 seconds

    Not too sure what the cooldown for this should be, I just put 8 seconds there as a placeholder. I do know no cooldown will make Spellbreakers OP due to Attacker's Insight refreshing burst skills.
    .
    .
    .
    As for Lan Deathstrider's other points

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

    I am fine with just Battle Standard being our sole revive-assist.

    Phalanx Strength is a fairly useful trait, its just been neutered for a while. It would be better if it were made into a complete boon sharing trait (as in Warrior gets a boon, everyone else gets a boon in the same what it works now for might. They already keep it from getting into an infinite loop with another warrior).

    I think it might be too OP for warriors to turn into boon multipliers for all boons, I could see zergs abusing this by positioning warriors at the edge of a caster's active radius and using the warrior to expand affected targets for a given boon.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @RiyazGuerra.9203 said:

    Regeneration is a bit weak in WvW in my opinion. It is a trickle of Healing that takes time to have significant effect, if any at all, and is prone to be interrupted with Boon Corruption. I have edited my proposal based on Lan Deathstrider's comment as below:

    • Grandmaster, minor: Resounding Command — Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%) Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in his comment below)

    Maybe to just keep it simple, I retract my request to add regeneration and I also don't think we should go the heal-allies-when-give-them-boon route and just do as Lan Deathstrider suggests:

    Vigorous Shouts also needs either better healing scaling or a higher base heal to be useful as a healing build, something like 10-20% increase depending on game mode.

    This change to the shout's base heal in addition to the shouts that reflexively trigger based on ingame conditions (I like to call them freebie-shouts) ie 'Shrug it off' should provide enough healing.
    .
    .
    .
    Next point.

    The disruptive nature is meant to be a Stability check, particularly after the most recent announced nerf hammer dropped on Guardian's 'Stand Your Ground!' (5 stacks of Stability reduced to 3). Together with that, this could hopefully help with culling the disproportional high amount of backliners supported by a small group of Firebrand.

    I see your intended gameplay function and it is a valid one. My concern is that by changing the fear to a taunt we will dramatically alter the 'Fear Me' skill from it's original intent, which would be disruption as well as an opportunity to escape / shed dps on the source. Maybe it should not change 'Fear Me' and let us agree that 'Imminent Threat' or some other taunt skill should be a core warrior skill. The trait could be changed to

    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Enemies taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)
    .
    .
    .

    I am not familiar with the effect (Rend), but wouldn't it be a bit overpowered if the effect cannot be cleansed as conditions are?

    Hell yeah it would, it would have to be a condition that could be cleansed like any other.
    .
    .
    .

    As for Phalanx Strength, I have included it in a modified fashion as the following:

    • Adept: Line of Departure — Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.) Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)

    I kind of agree with Lan Deathstriker on this one

    Also if you are nerfing might sharing to be solely out of combat then you need to increase the amount of might you share otherwise its rather wimpy, not to mention over complicating it by having a conditional refresh on vigor gain.

    Personally I am not wedded to the idea that Warriors must have Phalanx Strength but if we had to lose it then putting a 'diminished Phalanx Strength' alternative in a minor trait is the way to go. Tying it to 'entering combat' or vigor gain I think should not be the way to introduce might to you and your allies, perhaps we can tie might-sharing to your burst skills?

    Adept, minor: Impressionable Strike — Grant Might (5 stacks for 10 s) to allies when you use a burst skill. Cooldown: 8 seconds

    Not too sure what the cooldown for this should be, I just put 8 seconds there as a placeholder. I do know no cooldown will make Spellbreakers OP due to Attacker's Insight refreshing burst skills.
    .
    .
    .
    As for Lan Deathstrider's other points

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

    I am fine with just Battle Standard being our sole revive-assist.

    Phalanx Strength is a fairly useful trait, its just been neutered for a while. It would be better if it were made into a complete boon sharing trait (as in Warrior gets a boon, everyone else gets a boon in the same what it works now for might. They already keep it from getting into an infinite loop with another warrior).

    I think it might be too OP for warriors to turn into boon multipliers for all boons, I could see zergs abusing this by positioning warriors at the edge of a caster's active radius and using the warrior to expand affected targets for a given boon.

    Guys... it’s Lan Deathrider not Deathstrider....

    I think personally that Phalanx Strength should remain as is but as a minor trait coupled with inspiring presence. A fair bit of tactics is based on sharing/granting might to the party so boon sharing is part of tactic’s identity.

    I think keeping a revival trait is a good idea. I can rez people fast when I run tactics without worrying about going down myself. That is invaluable. And with a good Shout build you can still support your allies. With the new barrier on WH I think shouts might be changed to give barrier instead. Just a hunch I have. [Editing to continue this thought now that the wife is watching the kid].

    I think Barrier on Shouts instead of healing may be the way to go. That way the 'healing' from prebuffing, applying vulnerability at the start of the fight isn't wasted. If the barrier gain is replacing the healing on a 1 for 1 basis, then I still think the scaling due to healing power should be increased, but perhaps the base level shouldn't be raised then. I still think Healing power from Inspiring Presence should be preserved somewhere, if even as a flat modifier somewhere, if it is done away with.

    Your thoughts?

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    I do not think we need a dramatic approach. Some increased healing and some defensive boons, together with the changes Anet are suggesting to warhorn is all what is needed.

  • @otto.5684 said:
    I do not think we need a dramatic approach. Some increased healing and some defensive boons, together with the changes Anet are suggesting to warhorn is all what is needed.

    But what if the healing was instead barrier? The gameplay becomes different then does it not?

  • Guys... it’s Lan Deathrider not Deathstrider....

    I think personally that Phalanx Strength should remain as is but as a minor trait coupled with inspiring presence. A fair bit of tactics is based on sharing/granting might to the party so boon sharing is part of tactic’s identity.

    I think keeping a revival trait is a good idea. I can rez people fast when I run tactics without worrying about going down myself. That is invaluable. And with a good Shout build you can still support your allies. With the new barrier on WH I think shouts might be changed to give barrier instead. Just a hunch I have. [Editing to continue this thought now that the wife is watching the kid].

    I think Barrier on Shouts instead of healing may be the way to go. That way the 'healing' from prebuffing, applying vulnerability at the start of the fight isn't wasted. If the barrier gain is replacing the healing on a 1 for 1 basis, then I still think the scaling due to healing power should be increased, but perhaps the base level shouldn't be raised then. I still think Healing power from Inspiring Presence should be preserved somewhere, if even as a flat modifier somewhere, if it is done away with.

    Your thoughts?

    LOL my apologies, Lan Deathrider, it seems I have given you several names throughout my posts.

    Phalanx Strength as is but as a minor would be great, but combining it with inspiring Presence might be too much. We can shift Inspiring Presence as the Master Minor, and Phalanx Strength to the Grandmaster Minor, and if we must have a revive trait let's leave it for the Adept Minor.

    Disagree on Barrier on Shouts, we can have both granted the Barrier is confined to the Warhorn 5 'Call to Arms' while the shouts do the healing. If we do as you suggested earlier and increase the base heal per shout, coupled with any freebie-shouts we can sneak in, the healing is going to be a welcomed addition IMHO.

    Lastly, agree that healing power from Inspiring Presence should be preserved somewhere, preferably as a minor trait.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I do not think we need a dramatic approach. Some increased healing and some defensive boons, together with the changes Anet are suggesting to warhorn is all what is needed.

    But what if the healing was instead barrier? The gameplay becomes different then does it not?

    Does it? At the same value, healing is stronger than barrier.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    Even with your rework.

    I would still not play tactic.

    The first minor is worthless because it only triggers ones and in most wvw fights, it will trigger on 1200+ range.

    Its on the same level as brave stride, the worst warrior trait.

    Shrug it off is on the same level.

    It triggers on 1200 range because of an autohit, wasting the healing/condi cleanse/stunbreak.

    Now its on 25s cd and by that time the fight is already over.

    Vigorous Shouts still has no synergy with the shouts it is used with.

    The heal shout already gives you full adrenalin.

    Shake it off is on a 50(40)s cd.

    Getting adrenalin every 40s is worthless and a minor heal every 40s is not worth taking a GM trait for.

  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Even with your rework.

    I would still not play tactic.

    The first minor is worthless because it only triggers ones and in most wvw fights, it will trigger on 1200+ range.

    Its on the same level as brave stride, the worst warrior trait.

    Shrug it off is on the same level.

    It triggers on 1200 range because of an autohit, wasting the healing/condi cleanse/stunbreak.

    Now its on 25s cd and by that time the fight is already over.

    Vigorous Shouts still has no synergy with the shouts it is used with.

    The heal shout already gives you full adrenalin.

    Shake it off is on a 50(40)s cd.

    Getting adrenalin every 40s is worthless and a minor heal every 40s is not worth taking a GM trait for.

    You do realize that right now Vigorous Shouts is 5 adrenaline per shout, and shouts like FGJ, OMM, SIO are ammo skills with a with the longest recharge being 20s when traited? I have 0 idea where you are pulling the 40s number from, unless the only shout you bring is Fear Me, at which point its is a 48s recharge.

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I do not think we need a dramatic approach. Some increased healing and some defensive boons, together with the changes Anet are suggesting to warhorn is all what is needed.

    But what if the healing was instead barrier? The gameplay becomes different then does it not?

    Does it? At the same value, healing is stronger than barrier.

    It would change because you have the option of popping the barrier prior to the fight in anticipation of incoming damage, and in the case of FGJ the heal would not be wasted at the start of the fight while prebuffing, ditto for On My Mark if you bring it to debuff at the start of the fight prior to damage being received. But sure I'd take higher healing power coefficients either way.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    theres so many thing wrong with many of those traits in my opinion.
    i dont even know where to start.
    i dont like it one bit.

    ill just throw a few in, thats by far not all, just what i think are the worst things.

    first:
    concentration and other boon prolonging effects are completely wasted on warrior imo. warrior doesnt give out many boons, and the boons they dish out are already long enough and are more likely to get ripped than to run out of time.

    ssecond:
    all the traits that work out of combat or upon entering combat are literal wasted spots for warrior, since you are melee and have adrenalin system (that depletes when ooc) you always want to stick in combat and dont actually want to get ooc. also, how are you giving out might while out of combat ? for great justice ? thats 24 stacks of might out of combat, okey, but you lose all the other effects of it (healing out of combat, with trooper rune condi remove out of combat? adrenalin gain out of combat? yikes)
    there is a reason why nobody that knows warrior is playing brave stride, because its actual dogkitten.

    third:
    leg specialist used to be good in wvw, because it had no internal cd and hammershock immobalized 5 ppl on range, which was great, now it immobilizes one person for 1 second (lol) and you go ahead and make it a grandmaster ? oh boi i would never ever take that.

    what i want to see is a merging of the revive traits into one, and giving something usefull for the free slot.
    shrug it of is kind of underwhelming aswell, and an elite shout would be very much welcome (i know, this has nothing to do with tactics)
    it would also be very helpful to get fast hands baseline, to make it easier to swap out discipline for tactics. THATS a big point on why nobody wants to give up discipline

  • @RedShark.9548 said:
    theres so many thing wrong with many of those traits in my opinion.
    i dont even know where to start.
    i dont like it one bit.

    ill just throw a few in, thats by far not all, just what i think are the worst things.

    first:
    concentration and other boon prolonging effects are completely wasted on warrior imo. warrior doesnt give out many boons, and the boons they dish out are already long enough and are more likely to get ripped than to run out of time.

    ssecond:
    all the traits that work out of combat or upon entering combat are literal wasted spots for warrior, since you are melee and have adrenalin system (that depletes when ooc) you always want to stick in combat and dont actually want to get ooc. also, how are you giving out might while out of combat ? for great justice ? thats 24 stacks of might out of combat, okey, but you lose all the other effects of it (healing out of combat, with trooper rune condi remove out of combat? adrenalin gain out of combat? yikes)
    there is a reason why nobody that knows warrior is playing brave stride, because its actual dogkitten.

    third:
    leg specialist used to be good in wvw, because it had no internal cd and hammershock immobalized 5 ppl on range, which was great, now it immobilizes one person for 1 second (lol) and you go ahead and make it a grandmaster ? oh boi i would never ever take that.

    what i want to see is a merging of the revive traits into one, and giving something usefull for the free slot.
    shrug it of is kind of underwhelming aswell, and an elite shout would be very much welcome (i know, this has nothing to do with tactics)
    it would also be very helpful to get fast hands baseline, to make it easier to swap out discipline for tactics. THATS a big point on why nobody wants to give up discipline

    You are right a number of things here. Fast hands should be baseline. Leg Specialist was OP prior to the ICD, the concentration may be important though depending on the duration of the new boons on WH and how they rework the rest of Tactics.

    Also, Brave Stride gets used in the Berserker Power DPS build for FotM and Raids to increase the damage on Headbutt at the start of the DPS rotation. It still sucks, but making Headbutt do more damage if it strips stability also sucks so... Brave Stride is garbage in PvP or WvW though. Now if it gave 5 stacks of stability... then it might be good there.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Let me clarify a few things. The 10 target cap thing on Vigorous Shouts is for the allies affected by the shout. So Fear Me and On My Mark would affect 10 allies with their healing and adrenaline gain for the warrior.

    Gotcha. I have edited my post accordingly.

    This is so that in high end PvE and medium to large scale WvW you can build adrenaline quickly. Several shouts are on an ammo system, so every 4 seconds you can pop 10 Adrenaline, per such shout. given that there are 10 allies nearby. Vigorous Shouts also needs either better healing scaling or a higher base heal to be useful as a healing build, something like 10-20% increase depending on game mode.

    Personally, I am very against anything with a high base Healing value and a low Skill Coefficient of Healing Power. My current proposal is to raise the SKill Coefficient from 1.2 to 1.5, which is a rather modest boost, for that, as you mentioned, several Shout skills are ammo based and thus capable of significant spike Healing, and I tried not to over-buff it.

    Phalanx Strength is a fairly useful trait, its just been neutered for a while. It would be better if it were made into a complete boon sharing trait (as in Warrior gets a boon, everyone else gets a boon in the same what it works now for might. They already keep it from getting into an infinite loop with another warrior). Phalanx Strength can also be better if it is incorporated into Inspiring Presence as it is now to become a better trait. The healing power increase is there to aid in shout builds, so if you want to get rid of that then Vigorous Shouts will need even better scaling or base healing than I recommend above otherwise you'll be nerfing Vigorous Shouts by proxy. Also if you are nerfing might sharing to be solely out of combat then you need to increase the amount of might you share otherwise its rather wimpy, not to mention over complicating it by having a conditional refresh on vigor gain.

    Allow me to clarify: in my second version of the trait (edited on Sunday), by including the Might sharing effect, I also proposed a mechanic that allows the effect to become available again every time you apply Vigor on allies. Since my writing was not clear, I have modified the section on refreshment of the effect again as the following:

    **The sharing effect is again available (refreshed) for 5 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike) (Edited Sep. 9th for better clarity)**
    

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

    Thank you! I'll look into this and see if I can figure something out accordingly.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    i miss support war so much in pvp, i missed the shoutbow day, it was so skill based

    There had been some good old days in WvW too, when my guild used to run power-based Longbow and Shout builds for best range bomb coordination and group healing/cleansing. If I remember correctly it was around the time LS Season 1 took place.

  • @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Other Stuff

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

    Thank you! I'll look into this and see if I can figure something out accordingly.

    My point on the might sharing is that it is just simpler to have it shared 1 for 1 for 4s without a cool down. Phalanx Strength as it is now is underpowered for a Grandmaster Major level trait, and is more like a Grandmaster Minor trait in its effectiveness.

    As to reviving, I think combining the two revival minors into a single trait and making it into a major trait is better.
    I think it would be useful somewhere to have a trait that if you give resistance to someone, that they get Protection as well. This would pair well with the new Quickbreathing, but also with several other skills. Another way to boost Vigorous Shouts without increasing the healing output on it would be to have shouts add extra boons to the recipients of the healing:

    FGJ: Retaliation (6s)
    SIO: Resistance (6s)
    OOM: Fury (6s)
    Fear Me: quickness (3s)
    To The Limit: Regeneration (6s)

    You'd have to add a large amount of healing to compete with a druid or FB, but more boons like Resistance and Retaliation would be good for the warrior.

    For Inspiring Presence, I think it is worth keeping still, but instead of +10 healing power, make it +1% outgoing healing per stack of Might in PvP/WvW and +2% outgoing healing per stack of Might in PvE.

  • @RiyazGuerra.9203 said:

    Regeneration is a bit weak in WvW in my opinion. It is a trickle of Healing that takes time to have significant effect, if any at all, and is prone to be interrupted with Boon Corruption. I have edited my proposal based on Lan Deathstrider's comment as below:

    • Grandmaster, minor: Resounding Command — Boons you apply onto allies last longer. (15%) Heal allies when you grant them Boon. (Proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in his comment below)

    Maybe to just keep it simple, I retract my request to add regeneration and I also don't think we should go the heal-allies-when-give-them-boon route and just do as Lan Deathstrider suggests:

    I still like Lan's proposal though :P Until I find a better replacement I'll just keep it there.

    Vigorous Shouts also needs either better healing scaling or a higher base heal to be useful as a healing build, something like 10-20% increase depending on game mode.

    This change to the shout's base heal in addition to the shouts that reflexively trigger based on ingame conditions (I like to call them freebie-shouts) ie 'Shrug it off' should provide enough healing.

    To quote myself from my reply to the same section written by Lan:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    Personally, I am very against anything with a high base Healing value and a low Skill Coefficient of Healing Power. My current proposal is to raise the SKill Coefficient from 1.2 to 1.5, which is a rather modest boost, for that, as you mentioned, several Shout skills are ammo based and thus capable of significant spike Healing, and I tried not to over-buff it.

    Next point.

    The disruptive nature is meant to be a Stability check, particularly after the most recent announced nerf hammer dropped on Guardian's 'Stand Your Ground!' (5 stacks of Stability reduced to 3). Together with that, this could hopefully help with culling the disproportional high amount of backliners supported by a small group of Firebrand.

    I see your intended gameplay function and it is a valid one. My concern is that by changing the fear to a taunt we will dramatically alter the 'Fear Me' skill from it's original intent, which would be disruption as well as an opportunity to escape / shed dps on the source. Maybe it should not change 'Fear Me' and let us agree that 'Imminent Threat' or some other taunt skill should be a core warrior skill. The trait could be changed to
    Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Enemies taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.)

    I thought by placing it in a Major Trait slot would have already given sufficient freedom of choice. Still, I as well would like to see other source of Taunt added toward core, though I just couldn't see a place for it in either Longbow, Warhorn or current Shouts (except alternating 'Fear Me!'). I have been thinking about adding a Shout Elite skill though. See if I can figure his out.

    As for Phalanx Strength, I have included it in a modified fashion as the following:

    • Adept: Line of Departure — Increases damage for every boon on you. (Unchanged.) Edit on Sep. 9th: When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The effect is refreshed for 3 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike)

    I kind of agree with Lan Deathstriker on this one

    Also if you are nerfing might sharing to be solely out of combat then you need to increase the amount of might you share otherwise its rather wimpy, not to mention over complicating it by having a conditional refresh on vigor gain.

    Personally I am not wedded to the idea that Warriors must have Phalanx Strength but if we had to lose it then putting a 'diminished Phalanx Strength' alternative in a minor trait is the way to go. Tying it to 'entering combat' or vigor gain I think should not be the way to introduce might to you and your allies, perhaps we can tie might-sharing to your burst skills?

    Adept, minor: Impressionable Strike — Grant Might (5 stacks for 10 s) to allies when you use a burst skill. Cooldown: 8 seconds

    Not too sure what the cooldown for this should be, I just put 8 seconds there as a placeholder. I do know no cooldown will make Spellbreakers OP due to Attacker's Insight refreshing burst skills.

    Reading this as well as Lan's latest reply, I just happened to come up with an idea. Give me some time on this one.

    As for Lan Deathstrider's other points

    Also Re: Reviving: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revival#Traits_that_revive click that and scroll a bit. Rev is the only class with out anything that aids in revival. So you would be making Warrior the second class without the means to aid in revival outside of Battle Standard.

    I am fine with just Battle Standard being our sole revive-assist.

    To be honest that is my stance on Revival as well. Plus, albeit the long cooldown, it is a strong one. Still, I'll keep looking for other possibilities, as Lan's argument do seem to have a point to me.

    Phalanx Strength is a fairly useful trait, its just been neutered for a while. It would be better if it were made into a complete boon sharing trait (as in Warrior gets a boon, everyone else gets a boon in the same what it works now for might. They already keep it from getting into an infinite loop with another warrior).

    I think it might be too OP for warriors to turn into boon multipliers for all boons, I could see zergs abusing this by positioning warriors at the edge of a caster's active radius and using the warrior to expand affected targets for a given boon.

    That is also my position on this.

  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Even with your rework.

    I would still not play tactic.

    The first minor is worthless because it only triggers ones and in most wvw fights, it will trigger on 1200+ range.

    Its on the same level as brave stride, the worst warrior trait.

    Shrug it off is on the same level.

    It triggers on 1200 range because of an autohit, wasting the healing/condi cleanse/stunbreak.

    Now its on 25s cd and by that time the fight is already over.

    Vigorous Shouts still has no synergy with the shouts it is used with.

    The heal shout already gives you full adrenalin.

    Shake it off is on a 50(40)s cd.

    Getting adrenalin every 40s is worthless and a minor heal every 40s is not worth taking a GM trait for.

    Several things in my proposal, particularly the flanking and effect upon engaging ones are based on the tactics people having being using here and there in WvW. When there are two ally groups running, one bigger and one smaller (often also one of PuGs and one guild group), the bigger one will be the 'anvil' while the smaller one will act as the anvil, stealth-bombing from the flank or behind of the enemy group.

    Still, I agree my proposal would be to scenario-limited in this case. Together with other feedbacks I have received, I am going to make some change about it.

    I am not so sure if Shrug it off is at the same level though, particularly when in my proposal it grants Resistance on baseline.

    Also, what's with the 50/40 s cooldown on 'Shake It Off!' there? I do not see it anywhere.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    theres so many thing wrong with many of those traits in my opinion.
    i dont even know where to start.
    i dont like it one bit.

    ill just throw a few in, thats by far not all, just what i think are the worst things.

    first:
    concentration and other boon prolonging effects are completely wasted on warrior imo. warrior doesnt give out many boons, and the boons they dish out are already long enough and are more likely to get ripped than to run out of time.

    It was aimed to be address to have all Shouts grants boon to allies by default. Would you think it is still insufficient?

    ssecond:
    all the traits that work out of combat or upon entering combat are literal wasted spots for warrior, since you are melee and have adrenalin system (that depletes when ooc) you always want to stick in combat and dont actually want to get ooc. also, how are you giving out might while out of combat ? for great justice ? thats 24 stacks of might out of combat, okey, but you lose all the other effects of it (healing out of combat, with trooper rune condi remove out of combat? adrenalin gain out of combat? yikes)
    there is a reason why nobody that knows warrior is playing brave stride, because its actual dogkitten.

    Doing something about it soon. Also, in my proposal I did provided a mechanic for the sharing effect to refresh during combat.

    third:
    leg specialist used to be good in wvw, because it had no internal cd and hammershock immobalized 5 ppl on range, which was great, now it immobilizes one person for 1 second (lol) and you go ahead and make it a grandmaster ? oh boi i would never ever take that.

    Agreed that the cripple-immobilize effect is under the line. I'll do something on that in my next modification.

    Also, would you also comment on Rupturing Smash alternating with Arc Divider?

  • The most important thing in a Tactics rework is to get rid of the "while reviving" skills - or at least keep it to 1 optional choice. If it's kept, an acceleration of the revival should be part of the effect. Ok, Inspiring Presence has to go, too!
    I like a good deal of your suggestions. I definitely like having a shout with a Taunt effect. Some are over-cooked, tho. I think Fire For Effect is a little too strong. And "Shrug It Off" should not grant Resistance. I'd also stay away from Retaliation effects (that's the realm of the Guardian).
    For ideas, I'd recommend taking Vengeful Return from the Discipline line and make it a minor trait under Tactics. It seems like a better home. I'd move Doubled Standards down to the adept slot in its place.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @perko.8309 said:
    The most important thing in a Tactics rework is to get rid of the "while reviving" skills - or at least keep it to 1 optional choice. If it's kept, an acceleration of the revival should be part of the effect. Ok, Inspiring Presence has to go, too!
    I like a good deal of your suggestions. I definitely like having a shout with a Taunt effect. Some are over-cooked, tho. I think Fire For Effect is a little too strong. And "Shrug It Off" should not grant Resistance. I'd also stay away from Retaliation effects (that's the realm of the Guardian).
    For ideas, I'd recommend taking Vengeful Return from the Discipline line and make it a minor trait under Tactics. It seems like a better home. I'd move Doubled Standards down to the adept slot in its place.

    I admit, that I intentionally doubled up on Longbow there, in the hope that people will actually pick it up and put it to test. As for 'Shake It Off!', it was my objective to make each of the Shout skills both provide a Boon to allies and inflict at lease some effect on enemies, and Resistance was the best solution I could reach. Suggestions for an alternative are welcome of course!

    Also, it was intentional to narrow the range of my proposal and not to touch other specializations, as a complete redesign of the Tactic trait line already seems to some radical. Still, an interesting recommendation.

    And thanks for showing your appreciation!

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 @cryorion.9532 @RiyazGuerra.9203 @Lighter.5631 @otto.5684 @DanAlcedo.3281 @RedShark.9548

    In case you were still interested in the proposal, I have changed a few things according to your feed back. Not all suggestions could be integrated obviously, but at least this is my attempt. Also, it was intended not to touch stuffs of or associated with other specialization, so sorry for not taking the ideas on Fast hand and Vengeful Return.

    A few key notes:

    Minor traits have been redesigned.

    Again inspired by functions provided by relevant features (Revealed by 'On My Mark!'), and real world military tactics (for cavalry or other light and mobile units primary), the Adept Minor has become Vanguard:

    • Adept, minor: Vanguard — Striking an invisible enemy reveals enemies around you. (Revealed for 3 s with CD 45 s within a radius of 600. If multiple enemies are hit by a single strike, they all get revealed. The radius limit is meant to prevent people from exploiting the range of Longbow or Rifle and spam AoE around.)

    With the same logic, the Grandmaster Minor has become Rearguard. The trait will retain the Revival aspect of Tactics.

    • Gradmaster, minor: Rearguard — Reduce incoming damage while reviving. Heal and grant might to nearby allies when you rally or successfully revive someone. (Previously Determined Revival and Reviver's Might mergerd together.)

    Element of Surprise has been through rework as well and promoted to the Master Tier. It will retain the empowering feature of Tactics.

    • Master, minor: — Element of Surprise — Grant Might to allies when you enter combat. (6 stacks for 6 s; numbers of allies: 5). Attacking enemies from its flank or behind grants might to your allies. (1 stacks for 4 s with no ICD; numbers of allies: 5) (Edit: Sep. 10th, based on feedback by @RedShark.9548)

    As always, all numbers here are just placeholders to give a general picture of how it might be like. While they are of course open to discussion, please also let me know how you think about the ideas proposed here.

    Major traits have been modified as well.

    Provocative Skirmishers no longer changes Fear you deal into Taunt. An Elite Shout skill is proposed to make up the lack of Taunt; we will get to that later. Both Feared and Taunted enemies now receive Vulnerabilities.

    • Adept: Provocative Skirmisher — Fear you deal becomes Taunt. Enemies feared or taunted by you gain 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 s over time. Taunted enemies deal less damage to you. (10% damage reduction.) (Edited on Sep. 11 based on the feedback by @RiyazGuerra.9203)

    Line of Departure is now unconditional. It will retain the feature provided by Phalanx Strength, which is agreed to be under-powered at this moment and suitable for Adept tier.

    • Adept: Line of Departure — When you grant yourself might while out of combat, grant it to nearby allies as well. The sharing effect is again available (refreshed) for 5 s every time you grant yourself Vigor. (Similar to the refreshment mechanic of Ranger's Opening Strike) (Edited Sep. 9th for better clarity)

    Leg Specialist has been buffed so that it may deserve its place among other Grandmaster Majors.

    • Grandmaster: Leg Specialist — Immobilize a target when you cripple them with a skill. Targets you crippled are also immobilized (1 s with 5 s ICD; the recharge is set on each individual target that this trait triggers on, as of Thief's Lotus Poison.) Immobilization you cause lasts longer (50%).

    Quick Breathing lost its ability to grant adrenaline upon affecting allies, as the synergy between additional boons it grants (Stability, instead of Fury in the developers' announcement, and Resistance) and the increased number of targets is already pretty strong.

    • Adept: Quick Breathing — Warhorn skills have an increased number of targets, grant an additional boon. Grant +120 Concentration. (As announced.) Grant 3 stacks of Stability for 5 s with Charge and Resistance for 3 s with Call to Arm.

    Shrug It Off has been buffed so that it may deserve its place in the Master tier.

    • Master: Shrug It Off — Use "Shake It Off!" automatically when you have a number of conditions on you. (Increase conditions cleased to 2; grant Resistance for 2 s.)

    Vigorous Shout has been renamed as Resounding Command. Some buffs have been added at the cost of losing cooldown reduction.

    • Grandmaster: Resounding Command Vigorous Shouts — Shouts affect more allies (10), heal them (Skill Coefficient of Healing Power raised from 1.2 to 1.5) and grant adrenaline based on the number of allies affected ( point of Adrenaline is granted per ally. Edited on Sep 8th, proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910 in their comment below). Shouts recharge faster, and grant Vigor to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9)

    In my previous comments I have explained that it was intentional not to buff the base Healing value, but rather, to buff the Skill Coefficient of Healing Power instead, so that Healing Power could actually be taken, and that you do not see glass cannons running around spike healing allies for several thousands.

    Shout skills have gone through some rework. All shout skills now grant allies a buff and inflict foes with debuff, to differentiate themselves from their Guardian counterparts. (NOTE: edited again after Lan's feedback; see below)

    • 'To the Limit!' — The skill now grants Vigor (8 s) to allies and inflict Slow (1 s) to your enemies.
    • 'Fear Me!' — The base CD is reduced to 30 s. Grant Retaliation Quickness for 6 s to allies. (Edited on Sep. 9th based on feedback by @Lan Deathrider.5910)
      * 'On My Mark!' — The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grant Quickness Fury for 3 8 s 'On My Mark!' and 2 6 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'. (Edit on Sep. 8th: Alternatively, as @RiyazGuerra.9203 suggested in their comment, the skill could alternatively apply Rend instead.)

    • 'On My Mark!' — The skill becomes an AoE of 180 radius around your selected target. (If no target is selected the skill cannot be deployed.) In addition to its previous effect, grant Quickness 2 stacks Stability for 3 5 s 'On My Mark!' and 1 stack of Stability 2 5 s for Lesser 'On My Mark!'. (Edit on Sep. 8th: Alternatively, as @RiyazGuerra.9203 suggested in their comment, the skill could alternatively apply Rend instead.)

    • 'Shake/Shrug It Off!' — In addition to their previous effect, grant Resistance for 2 3 s and 1 2 s respectively. Increase conditions cleansed to 3 and 2 respectively.
      * 'For Great Justice!' — This skill no longer grants Fury. Instead, it applies Weakness (6 s) to your enemies.

    • 'For Great Justice!' — This skill no longer grants Fury. In addition to its previous efefct, apply Weakness (6 s) to your enemies.

    A new Shout skill is added to the Elite catergory:
    * 'Dare you not!' — Grant Retaliation (6 s) to allies. Enemies around you (600) is Taunted (3 s) and Confused (5 stacks for 5 s). (CD: 20 s)

    • 'Dare you not!' — Grant Retaliation (6 s) and Alacrity (3 s) to allies. Enemies around you (600) is Taunted (3 s) and Confused (5 stacks for 5 s). (CD: 30 s)

    The description of Warhorn skills have been clarified. No substantiate change is made.

    Let me know what you think about it :D

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    My commentary to the above changes:

    Keep Fury on FGJ, this was the reason we all suggested to the devs to swap the Fury on quickbreathing for another boon. But, if you are putting Fury on OMM (which I did recommend, but was in addition to that on FGJ not instead, and only when traited), then replacing Fury on FGJ with some other boon is not out of hand. Retaliation would be appropriate for something called "For Great Justice" would it not?

    Also your Element of Surprise coupled with Line of Departure (if it is just Phalanx Strength then keep the old name) on a GS warrior would end up giving the party 2 might per target per GS hit. I do not know if that was what you were going for, but it might (heh pun heh) be too much might. Not that I have negative feelings about that, but consider it from the dev point of view.

    I wish we had an elite shout, and 'Dare You Not' sounds interesting. Since Taunt forces someone to run towards the target if they are using a melee weapon, then would not torment also be a useful condition for such an elite? I am suggesting this to provide a more impetus to use this versus melee who are not within 600 to still take some condi damage.

    "Dare You Not!" Taunt foes within 600 for 3s. Confuse (5 stacks) and Torment (5 stacks) foes within 600 for 5s. Grant allies in range 6s of retaliation. No cast. 25s CD.

    Traited CD would be 20s, which is plenty for this kind of skill. A 20s CD as you suggested would end up as a 16s CD traited, which is too low for an elite skill.

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    My commentary to the above changes:

    Keep Fury on FGJ, this was the reason we all suggested to the devs to swap the Fury on quickbreathing for another boon. But, if you are putting Fury on OMM (which I did recommend, but was in addition to that on FGJ not instead, and only when traited), then replacing Fury on FGJ with some other boon is not out of hand. Retaliation would be appropriate for something called "For Great Justice" would it not?

    Makes sense. I think I'll also swap for Alacrity for 3 s on the elite Shout skill and a slight bit of Stability on OOM instead, so that each Shout provides something unique to others.

    Edit: or maybe not to add Retaliation on FGJ and to leave Retaliation to the elite skill.

    Also your Element of Surprise coupled with Line of Departure (if it is just Phalanx Strength then keep the old name) on a GS warrior would end up giving the party 2 might per target per GS hit. I do not know if that was what you were going for, but it might (heh pun heh) be too much might. Not that I have negative feelings about that, but consider it from the dev point of view.

    Ta-dum-tss.

    The GS part was indeed not taken into consideration. Although I think it could be balanced out with the already short duration on Might, or could it not?

    I wish we had an elite shout, and 'Dare You Not' sounds interesting. Since Taunt forces someone to run towards the target if they are using a melee weapon, then would not torment also be a useful condition for such an elite? I am suggesting this to provide a more impetus to use this versus melee who are not within 600 to still take some condi damage.
    "Dare You Not!" Taunt foes within 600 for 3s. Confuse (5 stacks) and Torment (5 stacks) foes within 600 for 5s. Grant allies in range 6s of retaliation. No cast. 25s CD.

    Traited CD would be 20s, which is plenty for this kind of skill. A 20s CD as you suggested would end up as a 16s CD traited, which is too low for an elite skill.

    To be honest, while it functionally serves the purpose well, I just could not find it fitting thematically in a taunt. I also tried to limit the effects Shouts inflicts on enemies to non damage effects. The reason Confusion was added at all was so that even when affected enemies were using range weapons, they'd be meaningfully affected. I'll see if I can find a better solution here.

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