Why MMO Fail? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why MMO Fail?

fewfield.7802fewfield.7802 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 6, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

I just found this video it owned by a content creator called Nixxiom.
i think it is very useful for any game developers.
I would like to share it to Anet so that maybe they can come up with some new great idea for my beloved game.

Ps. There's no toxicity and whining inside the vid. Only facts inside, please feel free to watch it.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5vkV30eqmTg

This is Asmongold (WoW steamer) 's Reaction to the vid

https://youtube.com/watch?v=kQr4Z4M9xGI

check it out

<1

Comments

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭

    the video has interesting points, i completely agree with them, but I think most MMO companies know about those too. :)

  • fewfield.7802fewfield.7802 Member ✭✭✭

    @coso.9173 said:
    the video has interesting points, i completely agree with them, but I think most MMO companies know about those too. :)

    i hope so :)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    the real addiction of players is to combat mechanics, most MMos change everything except combat mechanics, so no matter how they throw new content, the veterans will start felling pressing the same keys in the same pattern.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭

    He does make a good points. Especially from 5:00 in to 8:00 in, that is huge at least for players like me that want to have a future motivation playing the game.

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    the real addiction of players is to combat mechanics, most MMos change everything except combat mechanics, so no matter how they throw new content, the veterans will start felling pressing the same keys in the same pattern.

    it depends on each person, i don't really care much about it. I mean it's fun, but there are multiple things I care much more about.

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's a Dutch saying which is kinda hard to translate: "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal".

  • MrRuin.9740MrRuin.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @MrRuin.9740 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Content: GW2 receives an adequate amount. Just because a percentage of players choose to rush through all of it within a day doesn’t mean there’s a lack of it.

    The flip side of this is that just because some players choose to stretch 3 hours worth of content over 3 days doesn't mean it's actually more content.

    It's actually much more than three hours; there's no need to under-exaggerate. The point was there there are players that consume content within days of it being released and then complain when they're bored about not being anymore content.

    It was an example, not an attempt to actually measure the content. And the point still stands that the opposite of what you say is also true; that some players drag content out for much longer and claim there's more than enough content (or too much in some cases as they don't have time do all event achieves or whatever).
    It's very much a matter of perspective and subjective to peoples lifestyles and you are choosing to see only one. Just saying, what's 'adequate' to you isn't for others.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I love when people see some video by an armchair dev and assume that the people who's livelihood depends on the product haven't though about these things.

    We should start linking videos of science fair baking soda volcanoes for nuclear physicists too.
    I'm sure they haven't thought about the proper brand to use.

    So much this.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

  • Goettel.4389Goettel.4389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Only obvious things in a too long video.

  • The creator forgot the 4th C -- Competition. Its all well and good to analyze based on isolating a game and looking at the internal elements that might cause failure. However, no game exists in a vacuum.

    The audience that wants to sink tons of hours into the type of game he describes is smaller than the audience for all games. I'd argue that the audience for the "tons o' hours play time" games is a lot smaller. So, when you have a lot of companies trying for a slice of that market share, the one(s) with the best track record, biggest IP's and largest audience share over time are going to be ones to succeed. Competition is why some MMO's deviate from the MMO game plan the creator is discussing. They cannot compete with WoW at its own game unless they have the lure of a huge IP (like Final Fantasy, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls).

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone who says they fired everyone needs to stop. They laid off only a fourth of all staff and that was the bulk of cancelled side projects and those who volunteered to be let go so that others could stay. What was left was even more staff to make the GW2 focused teams even bigger.

    As for those who keep saying "only 3 hours of content" aren't actually playing the content outside the story instances. Usually players who focus competitive modes (god rest their souls) or raids which is almost the level of quality of LW chapters with a smaller team. Or they're streamers who try and stretch out content that really isn't watchable.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    his 3 Cs are totally on point, especially the final part of the final C, Community

    a MMO is Massive Multiplayer, so most contents needs to have as many players to participate; hence i disagree with every thread complaining about lack of solo contents, and demands for more solo contents and features that promotes solo contents such as the henchmen system from GW1


    here's another video from Asmon discussing mash's video critiquing the state of WoW that Anet can pick up some points from

    one of the critical point that applies the the gaming industry overall that came up in the discussion, and Anet should take a good look is
    how the game design had changed over the years, from the time the raise of the mobile gaming market, games back in the days prior to that was players needs to adapt to the game that they play to gain sense of achievement
    but these days, games are designed to adapted to the player, allowing them to gain access to lots of high-end stuffs with minimum investment, or pay their way to it, giving them a quick adrenaline rush while the gaming company get a quick money grab ... but what comes after that initial adrenaline rush is gone? player leaves and dont look back

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • blade eyes.2034blade eyes.2034 Member ✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    community, guilds in gw2 are dead, guild mission has been the same since 2013. I don't care about world bosses with zerg of strangers that I don't know, who mindlessly farm for more gold.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @blade eyes.2034 said:
    community, guilds in gw2 are dead, guild mission has been the same since 2013. I don't care about world bosses with zerg of strangers that I don't know, who mindlessly farm for more gold.

    Eh, communities aren't really dead. I think it just seems that way to a lot of people because of significant portion of the community interactions don't really happen in game. A lot of it is on discord, for example. Some on reddit, some on the forums, ect. You just gotta find it.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭

    Most MMORPGs for me personally failed. Either too hard to get into them and too hard to reach end game. (Back then in WoW at release I didn't even get to max level when it already felt to slow and grindy for me.)

    Or at end game it might get boring. (Yet to find a game where this happens. I still have a lot to catch up in GW2 after long break. I like the idea of WvW and PvP which I'd do in between the story content releases then ... if they were balanced - a lot of people complaining about balancing issues in PvP in the forums aren't too encouraging though.)

    Other MMO that aren't RPG might have it easier. For example shooter based games that aren't even massively (20-30 players in 2 teams on a map fighting each others) or stuff like Planetside. They have other focus. Just playing and having fun. As long as the game modes are fun and okay to repeat them and replay.

    Biggest problem I see is with MMORPGs with item treadmill. Not encouraging for players starting later or taking a break. (Hard to catch up - so I won't even try.) Or where the end game si boring. (End game can only be grind in PvE - which always is boring - or WvW/PvE ... or stuff like dungeons that you'd do without pressure to farm gear but just because you like the mechanics.)

    Activities and stuff like at seasonal events are nice every now and then as additional motivation to keep playing Gw2. And I't try them as well once I have catched up with everything PvE related (all stories finished, all elites unlocked, full world completion on 9 chars - each class/profession 1 char.)


    So imo I think the companies should mainly focus on adding stuff that can be played repeatedly while having fun - without the need to grind for gear while doing so. And without the grind for gear to access it. Since dungeons/raids usually are all about rewards this leaves PvE, WvW in GW2. And the activitis or seasonal stuff that you playi for fun/achivements. (Really liked that wintersday dungeon back then before my break - don't know if it still returns every years. Was fun with a group. No huge rewards. Trying for achievement- and that had different focus than just killing strong mobs - Having fun.)

    Different mechanics than just killing strong mobs are fun. Afaik most MMORPG just focus on you having to grind through a gear treadmill while having the best gear and the best skills - making one most effective build ... and only playing that same build grinding the same dungeons over and over. That does not sound like fun to me. Especially if the dungeons have always the same mechanics which are boring - if it is mainly about killing some strong boss and using your battle skills.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    I remembered the original living story release model was very active. Many continue to do it until the very last day. Ever since they change the model to a persistent one, lesser and lesser doing it. Honestly, the original living story model was to make the world of guilds wars 2 "living" such that the surroundings will change overtime but they ditched that out of the window after the players complain it lack replayability. Personally I liked the original living story model, it is more immersive and can feel the world actually changing side by side with you. Sometimes not all players requests are good and that is also one of the problems of anet, they like listening to "popular" requests even if is bad for the game in long run.

    Founder & Retired Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi
    https://discord.gg/P5dj7fd

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Content: GW2 receives an adequate amount. Just because a percentage of players choose to rush through all of it within a day doesn’t mean there’s a lack of it.

    I wouldnt say playing through the content once and the content not being replayable is compairable, in most mmos ppl gonna play the new stuff once fairly quickly, the upside with those game vs anet is that the replaybility of the content is quite a bit higher than what anet manages to put out.

    an example id say is compairing the 2 expansions this game had, Hot u could play through it in a couple days yet it kepy ppl engaged far longer than pof managed.

  • Jethro.9376Jethro.9376 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:
    an example id say is compairing the 2 expansions this game had, Hot u could play through it in a couple days yet it kepy ppl engaged far longer than pof managed.

    That's what the cookie cutter achievements are for. Brain numbing busy work that only really matters to completionists.

    If the "rushers" are one end of a stick, the completionists (or people who actually care about AP) are the other end.

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Pot calling kettle here. Warclaw was ready to ship when layoffs happened (it was going to launch within a week of the layoffs, but got delayed a week). We do not know how many were let go who worked on it. Same goes with wing 7, we do not know what was the status of that was prior to lay off, but we do know many prominent team members left during the layoffs. And lets look at swiss, announced forever ago, and where are we now? The MATs have been cancelled for two months now, not only is there no swiss there nothing at all. Wvw alliance, anet will be ready to talk about them in a few months, after being announced 1.5 years ago. I wonder why people say stuff thats demostrably untrue, it almost like the agenda is more important than facts?

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @fewfield.7802 said:
    I just found this video it owned by a content creator called Nixxiom.
    i think it is very useful for any game developers.
    I would like to share it to Anet so that maybe they can come up with some new great idea for my beloved game.

    Ps. There's no toxicity and whining inside the vid. Only facts inside, please feel free to watch it.

    This is Asmongold (WoW steamer) 's Reaction to the vid

    check it out

    Old but gold. Nails many of the mistakes going on with GW2's current development direction.

    • Content is not challenging, and you don't have to work for anything. It's just either RNG, grinds, or spending money/tokens.
    • Bugs and design issues take years to fix, and problems are never given the priority they deserve.
    • The community is nonexistent, and the guild system hasn't been updated in years. The lack of socialization is criminally depressing.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    his 3 Cs are totally on point, especially the final part of the final C, Community

    a MMO is Massive Multiplayer, so most contents needs to have as many players to participate; hence i disagree with every thread complaining about lack of solo contents, and demands for more solo contents and features that promotes solo contents such as the henchmen system from GW1


    here's another video from Asmon discussing mash's video critiquing the state of WoW that Anet can pick up some points from

    one of the critical point that applies the the gaming industry overall that came up in the discussion, and Anet should take a good look is
    how the game design had changed over the years, from the time the raise of the mobile gaming market, games back in the days prior to that was players needs to adapt to the game that they play to gain sense of achievement
    but these days, games are designed to adapted to the player, allowing them to gain access to lots of high-end stuffs with minimum investment, or pay their way to it, giving them a quick adrenaline rush while the gaming company get a quick money grab ... but what comes after that initial adrenaline rush is gone? player leaves and dont look back

    Designing online games as single player games is a shortcut for failure, and a very short one at that.

    @blade eyes.2034 said:
    community, guilds in gw2 are dead, guild mission has been the same since 2013. I don't care about world bosses with zerg of strangers that I don't know, who mindlessly farm for more gold.

    And no one seems to care. Guilds are literally the most important pillar of any online community. See how they're treated here, that's all you need to know how bad it is.

  • Content: GW2 receives living story that can be soloable as the majority of its content. Most can not be repeated or if repeatable, not worth it. This followed by slow releases of group pve content, 2 15min fractals a year, 1 hour long raid year. Wvw and spvp languish, with the only wvw update being a way to monetize mount skins for a mount noone wanted.

    Commitment: I’d say Anet only committed to casual content and whaling practices. If it can not be directly monitized, its not worth developing. Because of this mentality, raids, fractals, wvw and pvp are not as supported. Because of the lack of support, we are now seeing major exodus of these players now.

    Community: Friendliest MMO because you dont have to interact with anyone. Anet has actively made a single player game with mmo elements. I think this is where the toxic casual meme come from.
    From my personal experience, the most joy i got out of this game was running with tts on triple trouble before the condi buff during hot. During that time being in a organized guild meant something, it was required to succeed. Now its just a random biomass pressing 1 and i fear strike and drakkar will just be more of the same.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • @zealex.9410 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Content: GW2 receives an adequate amount. Just because a percentage of players choose to rush through all of it within a day doesn’t mean there’s a lack of it.

    I wouldnt say playing through the content once and the content not being replayable is compairable, in most mmos ppl gonna play the new stuff once fairly quickly, the upside with those game vs anet is that the replaybility of the content is quite a bit higher than what anet manages to put out.

    an example id say is compairing the 2 expansions this game had, Hot u could play through it in a couple days yet it kepy ppl engaged far longer than pof managed.

    You cannot rush through content that takes time to master.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Pot calling kettle here. Warclaw was ready to ship when layoffs happened (it was going to launch within a week of the layoffs, but got delayed a week). We do not know how many were let go who worked on it. Same goes with wing 7, we do not know what was the status of that was prior to lay off, but we do know many prominent team members left during the layoffs. And lets look at swiss, announced forever ago, and where are we now? The MATs have been cancelled for two months now, not only is there no swiss there nothing at all. Wvw alliance, anet will be ready to talk about them in a few months, after being announced 1.5 years ago. I wonder why people say stuff thats demostrably untrue, it almost like the agenda is more important than facts?

    What facts though? Did you play the new content yet? Do you know how involved it is how much work went into it? What I've seen so far is a festival that for all intents and purposes was new content and a well received final chapter of Season 4. Nothing made me think since then that anything was different, except the layoffs. In fact, most of my guild is busier now with this in between bonus events than we used to be during breaks, and though this break was longer, that new festival really did help.

    On top of that these bonus weekends have been asked about for years and they're finally doing them. Do I think having to reorganize your studio takes time? Sure I do. Do I feel like we're getting anything less so far? Nope. Haven't seen a dropoff yet.

    You're assuming the dropoff and I'm not. So who's actually being disingenuous? The guy making comments or the guy who isn't judging till I at least play/see what's coming?

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I love when people see some video by an armchair dev and assume that the people who's livelihood depends on the product haven't though about these things.

    We should start linking videos of science fair baking soda volcanoes for nuclear physicists too.
    I'm sure they haven't thought about the proper brand to use.

    Did you know that NASA forgot toilets? It's true. In their first manned flight into space, NASA didn't take into consideration that, eventually, he'll have to go to the bathroom. The launch prep took an inordinate amount of time, so when confronted with the issue they panicked and just told him to wet himself. Hundreds of rocket scientists, engineers, technicians, all using the toilet every 6 hours or so for years, and yet not one of them figured to factor that in.

    Never trust anyone who tells you not to think. Creativity and genius are fickle and cruel mistresses. An outside perspective is equally as valid and useful as an inside one. Don't put your faith in the notion that other people have got things all figured out. More often than not, they haven't figured it all out. There is no magical reasoning that will allow other people to know things that you can't. When somebody steps forward claiming to know all the answers, more often than not their personality is masking that all they've got is an educated guess.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    Programs have a front end and a back end. Making new maps is all front end stuff. You're not changing the status quo. It's a very different thing. Most developers aren't qualified or allowed to work on the back end stuff. Things like changing servers, adding tools is a specific jobs that not everyone gets to do. Most of maps is design. You're using already existing tools to create content. You're not directly altering code so much.

    When you're programming a game, you have certain technologies that need to be put into the code so that the rest of the devs can use it. One of the devs in my guild way back told me a story about Arah. When this game launched, the Arah story mode mission wasn't actually complete, because the moving platform tech that the airships moved on wasn't in the game yet. They had to wait for that to complete the instance. In the mean time players were already pouring into the game and they had to race to get it done before the first players reached Orr, which happened much faster than they expected it to.

    At the end of the day you can't compare a living story episode that doesn't fundamentally change the game or access servers with this sort of update. They're simply not comparable.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    Were you online on the night a couple of years ago when WvW broke in the way that suddenly people could join enemy server chat channels, guards in your owned objectives randomly turned against you, and all kinds of friend/enemy stuff in wvw broke down? I don't think they ever told what the bug was or what led to it, but that incident alone should be a clear sign that assigning factions in wvw isn't as easy as we think, and fiddling with its base can lead to a ton of trouble.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    I would have thought it was pretty obvious why MMORPGs are in the state they are in, the gameplay isn't very good and mobile gaming has taken a huge chunk of the players who are into the rewards as a substitute for gameplay type of play that MMORPGs provide.

    Maybe one day an MMORPG will actually try something different, but given AAA MMO releases have basically dried up (and even then they were all painfully risk averse) and all you get are western releases of failed Asian MMOs and indie MMOs that never seem to reach release, it seems unlikely.

  • well, according to that video anet is doing everything right. So people, please stop complaining.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    One of the devs in my guild way back told me a story about Arah. When this game launched, the Arah story mode mission wasn't actually complete, because the moving platform tech that the airships moved on wasn't in the game yet. They had to wait for that to complete the instance. In the mean time players were already pouring into the game and they had to race to get it done before the first players reached Orr, which happened much faster than they expected it to.

    >
    So.. that change probably needed to be completed within 2 weeks to allow for the first ones to Orr to have the ability to play that right?

    How is this example applicable to what I am speaking about above?

    On one hand: with enough resources, the problem was addressed within two weeks. If you are telling me those are different scenarios to the ‘back end’ stuff, then why bring it up?

    On the second hand: it’s an example of things being able to be completed with resource allocation.

    Which brings me to the inherent problem I have with alliances being dragged out: the resources do not appear to be allocated. It’s been almost 20 months since the ‘coming change’ was first announced which means it had been worked on some before.

    And there is has been no actual update of ‘progress’ for almost 1.5 years. (‘Update #2’ was effectively “We still have it as a priority” and “We are still working on it”)

    Look, I don’t doubt it is a large undertaking. But to see things effectively stagnate? I don’t buy it.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    One of the devs in my guild way back told me a story about Arah. When this game launched, the Arah story mode mission wasn't actually complete, because the moving platform tech that the airships moved on wasn't in the game yet. They had to wait for that to complete the instance. In the mean time players were already pouring into the game and they had to race to get it done before the first players reached Orr, which happened much faster than they expected it to.

    >
    So.. that change probably needed to be completed within 2 weeks to allow for the first ones to Orr to have the ability to play that right?

    How is this example applicable to what I am speaking about above?

    On one hand: with enough resources, the problem was addressed within two weeks. If you are telling me those are different scenarios to the ‘back end’ stuff, then why bring it up?

    On the second hand: it’s an example of things being able to be completed with resource allocation.

    Which brings me to the inherent problem I have with alliances being dragged out: the resources do not appear to be allocated. It’s been almost 20 months since the ‘coming change’ was first announced which means it had been worked on some before.

    And there is has been no actual update of ‘progress’ for almost 1.5 years. (‘Update #2’ was effectively “We still have it as a priority” and “We are still working on it”)

    Look, I don’t doubt it is a large undertaking. But to see things effectively stagnate? I don’t buy it.

    How can you possibly know if they're stagnating. You only know it's not done. The point was the people who designed the tech to move the platforms were different than the people who were working on the dungeon. The group that makes the tools and the tech is different than the designers. That's how it applies to what you're saying.

    Change the back end of anything in any program, particularly a 7 year old program is something you have to do REALLY REALLY carefully. Taking a long time to do something is not necessarily stagnating. For all you know they've made changes already on the test server and those changes aren't doing what they want them to do, so they're tweaking. The point is, you have no idea of it's stagnating or not. You're making the assumption that kind of major change doesn't take 2 years. You simply don't know. I don't know either. The difference between us is I'm not the one claiming it's stagnating.

  • totally disagree with the saying that MMORPG games have declined. In China, the most mainstream game is still MMOPRG, and there are still more than 20 MMORPG games in the market. The so-called decline is only a slow update of European and American MMORPG games, or the age is too long.

  • MMO fail because of toxic community. Just like the announcement 30th. People complain and harassing the devs because they dont get what they want when the content that they want (they know themselves) wasnt even going to be part of the announcement. People need to stop harassing the devs thats why mmos are dying just like the World Of Warcraft right now. World Of Warcraft commnunity is toxic they hate their current expansion, they harass the devs that the devs are being forced to make a new version of the old game. lol. Hope that doesnt happen to Gw2.

  • fewfield.7802fewfield.7802 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @knomslayer.9457 said:
    MMO fail because of toxic community. Just like the announcement 30th. People complain and harassing the devs because they dont get what they want when the content that they want (they know themselves) wasnt even going to be part of the announcement. People need to stop harassing the devs thats why mmos are dying just like the World Of Warcraft right now. World Of Warcraft commnunity is toxic they hate their current expansion, they harass the devs that the devs are being forced to make a new version of the old game. lol. Hope that doesnt happen to Gw2.

    It's just like any others products/services out there. When they dont serve the consumer's demand, people are not satisfied and express or spread the words of hatred. In terms of MMO, people dont only spend their money on it but also spend their life, passion, and dedication. That's why people are so mad and angry when the devs didnt provide the right content that they want.

    The toxic behavior is bad, i agreed. But I also think that the devs should have revealed or talked abit more about the future plan to give sincerity and hope to the community. The reason they were mad (including me) is that they felt like being abandoned (also their beloved game mode such as raid/pvp/wvw) because All Anet was talking about is Living World and Story.

    Everyone just wants their game mode to be a part of the future.
    Not only open-world pve players.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    1) Despite what people say, Most people DONT LIKE LEVEL GRINDS ANYMORE!

    2) Spending all your Funds on Story Aspects with full Voice Overs like SWTOR is not what most MMO gamers want. Thats a one time interest feature. Its a waste.

    3) Sandbox doesnt mean FFA Full Loot. Sandbox can have Faction PvP as well.

    4) LFG tool was added to WoW (thee most popular MMO in history) for a reason. So stop being afraid of it. Its a needed thing.

    5) Trinity isnt bad. Healers and Tanks ar in shorter supply because the ratio for Tanks and Healers to DPS should imply that group size is the issue not the lack of Tanks and Healers. which leads into the next point

    6) Raid Dungeons dont mean it has to be Hardcore content. Just like party dungeons been traditionally casual or stepping stones into Endgame hard content. Raids dont always need to be Hard content. It can also be a Casual Raid Dungeon like normal dungeons just with more players in the group.

    7) Developer's decision always dictate the Actions of Players including in Large Scale PvP. I see this in WvW for example, and many people on the WvW forum will argue that its not the developers fault for why WvW players do Zergfest tactics. I disagree. People play based on Developer's game design decisions.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    I like Guildwars 2 a lot but i disagree making casual gamers leave.. they are the mainstay of mmorpgs. That said imo Anet dropped the ball on Gw2 with Ascended being a massive crafted grind..

    Guildwars 1 was Anets greatest achievement imo.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    They fired everyone so there isn’t anyone left to do anything to the game outside of living world episodes.

    This feels like a lot of misinformation to me. For example we swiss tournaments were announced for PvP, so there is obviously someone working on them. And while the Warclaw wasn't well received by a lot of WvWers, someone must have worked on it. In addition to that, most of the people fired weren't even working on Guild Wars 2 in the first place In addition to that, there's a new type of ten man content coming. Not sure why people say stuff like this that's demonstrably untrue.

    Did you check how long ago Swiss was announced?

    Have you checked how long ago Alliances were announced?

    Warclaw is a mount..., pretty much like all the others. It’s WvW specific? How about the modifications for that Warclaw?

    So.. while I agree there are people working on things, to be told ‘soon’ for over 19 months.... it’s kinda hard to swallow is all.

    Do you know how much time the alliance would take with having to essentially delete the servers? This is a core thing that has to be handled very carefully, particularly because they need to make other changes which have nothing to do with it, to set up other future goals. You might think it's just alliances, but we know both front and back end stuff had to be done. It's not like flicking a switch. It's a major change to the format. Sorry if you think it's taking to long, but stuff like this often takes longer than expected. I think the tournament bugs might have set back Swiss tournaments, but I have no idea how involved any of that is. But for WvW, it's a basic rewrite of the whole system. I knew it would take a lot of time. Time for players and time for programmers are very different things.

    I don’t doubt it takes time.

    So let’s assume they were working on it before the announcement..

    The matchmaking is intact.

    Linking is in place to ‘join’ players to servers.

    Workload wise? There have been a full LS episode that has come and gone to include multiple maps, legendaries, quests, etc. leading us to LS5. And let’s not pretend that they don’t have the bulk of 5 done.

    So... a matchmaking system.... which megaservers has been in place for... how long again? Oh yeah... 2014.

    Say what you like... but the only reason why alliances isn’t out is a concerted effort towards producing it.

    It isn’t a priority. Just own that. Those of us that enjoy WvW have. It’s the part that has led many to take an extended break.

    One of the devs in my guild way back told me a story about Arah. When this game launched, the Arah story mode mission wasn't actually complete, because the moving platform tech that the airships moved on wasn't in the game yet. They had to wait for that to complete the instance. In the mean time players were already pouring into the game and they had to race to get it done before the first players reached Orr, which happened much faster than they expected it to.

    >
    So.. that change probably needed to be completed within 2 weeks to allow for the first ones to Orr to have the ability to play that right?

    How is this example applicable to what I am speaking about above?

    On one hand: with enough resources, the problem was addressed within two weeks. If you are telling me those are different scenarios to the ‘back end’ stuff, then why bring it up?

    On the second hand: it’s an example of things being able to be completed with resource allocation.

    Which brings me to the inherent problem I have with alliances being dragged out: the resources do not appear to be allocated. It’s been almost 20 months since the ‘coming change’ was first announced which means it had been worked on some before.

    And there is has been no actual update of ‘progress’ for almost 1.5 years. (‘Update #2’ was effectively “We still have it as a priority” and “We are still working on it”)

    Look, I don’t doubt it is a large undertaking. But to see things effectively stagnate? I don’t buy it.

    How can you possibly know if they're stagnating. You only know it's not done. The point was the people who designed the tech to move the platforms were different than the people who were working on the dungeon. The group that makes the tools and the tech is different than the designers. That's how it applies to what you're saying.

    Change the back end of anything in any program, particularly a 7 year old program is something you have to do REALLY REALLY carefully. Taking a long time to do something is not necessarily stagnating. For all you know they've made changes already on the test server and those changes aren't doing what they want them to do, so they're tweaking. The point is, you have no idea of it's stagnating or not. You're making the assumption that kind of major change doesn't take 2 years. You simply don't know. I don't know either. The difference between us is I'm not the one claiming it's stagnating.

    Let’s assume for a minute that the ‘Back-End’ part of your post is accurrate.

    Let’s drift back to the mount: still not ‘fixed’ as in the changes that @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 noted we’re ‘in the works’. That’s been 6 months now. And the last update, 2.5 months ago was that the skill is finished but needed tweaks.

    Maps: WvW has gotten two major maps/map changes in the last 7 years. DBL, and the addition / rework of the ruins. In 7 years. Oh wait, quaggan lake... so three.

    Exploitable paths into keeps and towers: three have been known about since year two with threads and questions about them. Several more have been in place since the introduction of DBL with it being widely known and reported. Invisible walls would likely help in most of these situations. Yet, when flying mounts get added, invisible walls start popping up everywhere within weeks after it’s shown, and still no change in WvW.

    You talk back end. I say resources. So while we can make the assumption that the back end is tenuous, it’s not arguable that resource wise, WvW has been left out.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Ol Nik.2518Ol Nik.2518 Member ✭✭✭

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @knomslayer.9457 said:
    MMO fail because of toxic community. Just like the announcement 30th. People complain and harassing the devs because they dont get what they want when the content that they want (they know themselves) wasnt even going to be part of the announcement. People need to stop harassing the devs thats why mmos are dying just like the World Of Warcraft right now. World Of Warcraft commnunity is toxic they hate their current expansion, they harass the devs that the devs are being forced to make a new version of the old game. lol. Hope that doesnt happen to Gw2.

    It's just like any others products/services out there. When they dont serve the consumer's demand, people are not satisfied and express or spread the words of hatred. In terms of MMO, people dont only spend their money on it but also spend their life, passion, and dedication. That's why people are so mad and angry when the devs didnt provide the right content that they want.

    The toxic behavior is bad, i agreed. But I also think that the devs should have revealed or talked abit more about the future plan to give sincerity and hope to the community. The reason they were mad (including me) is that they felt like being abandoned (also their beloved game mode such as raid/pvp/wvw) because All Anet was talking about is Living World and Story.

    Everyone just wants their game mode to be a part of the future.
    Not only open-world pve players.

    Being dissatisfied does not equal to being mad, angry, and definitely do not grant the right 'to express or spread the words of hatred'. It is fine and understandable that not everyone is happy with a game and developers approaches to its development. However, a good community reacts to this with constructive feedback and a positive attitude. Toxic communities feel entitled to their rage, hatred, poor choice of words, and general lack of civility.

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