The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The sustain of Holosmith is nuts....it's just broken

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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Aylpse.6280 said:
    This spec is killing pvp for me. It isn't fun to fight at all. You can outplay a holo all day and they won't be punished for even the slightest misstep. So much sustain AND the ability to reset the fight? Forgive me, Mesmer gods. Little did I know you were the lesser evil.

    Although I agree with u holo isn't the only spec that can do this. If u 1v1 a really good scourge for example they'll pop their barrier everytime there close to being downed resulting in a fight that takes for ever and chances are if u don't match the sustain they'll water u down. Water if trated for on ele can do the same thing as I've done it. Scourge can't kill much but it can be almost impossible to down solo so u either leave or a 1vx happens in either favor. Overall bursts are way too high across the board but there are a few specs with builds that are way to high in self sustain. The other night I was fighting a scourge and had the one or two hits from downstate and everytime they'd pop a barrier that was enough to keep the scourge alive to chip me down. Without barrier the scourge woulda died 4 times over as that's how many times they popped it in one long fight and eventually I had to either leave or just try and go all 8n and I got greedy and tried and died lol. With that said most scourges arnt too difficult but ones that know how are crazy sustain wise. Holo has too much of everything tho in holo forge. Low CD,boon applications, dps, hard cc's with crazy range and duration as due to wave like aplication of shockwave a well timed evade does nothing as far as avoiding the cc. It has 900 ranged great dps pistol skill to compliment the leap and great melee skills, some of the best utilitiy and traits and to top it off insane healing with turret and blast fields that can heal to almost max hp each time. There's a reason their everywhere these days.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    About engi....the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

    We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world , so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

    Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

    Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....

    Wat

    It's literally a free bonus heal less every 20 seconds or less. It's a reward for going full ham as fast as possible. If your goal is to nerf sustain, it's one of the most obvious targets. It's also never been nerfed, and a ripe target for it.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • asterix.9614asterix.9614 Member ✭✭✭

    No point on denying it, I main holo and scrapper and holo is beyond op both in pvp and wvw, no brainer spec....

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @Aylpse.6280 said:
    This spec is killing pvp for me. It isn't fun to fight at all. You can outplay a holo all day and they won't be punished for even the slightest misstep. So much sustain AND the ability to reset the fight? Forgive me, Mesmer gods. Little did I know you were the lesser evil.

    That's what's most aggravating. Even a higher skill player can outplay a holo till they're 25%, and then you see how OP they are. Invuln, stealth, heal to full, superspeed escape.

    What's worst is holos Cooldowns are so low, once they cowardly run away, they'll return as if the fight never happened and try again till you die

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Looking at the preview in professions, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @googel.3278 said:
    Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

    The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut **Monk's focus ** from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

    How that sound like idea?

    That idea sounds absolutely, incredibly stupid. Guardian has 11k base health and is one of two classes that doesn't have any evade frames on either weapon or utility skills. It also has less blocks than most other classes out there, with the exception of Ele, thief and necro. It is the only class without any form of swiftness in their "meta" build since HoT.

    So if you want to have a slow, sluggish class with no damage (if you're forced into healing power) then go right ahead.

    The reason Ele has sustain isn't because of healing power. It's sole reason why it stays alive is the massive amount of evade frames, and invuln frames they have. Namely Riptide, Earthern Vortex, Twist of Faith and Obsidian Flesh. Losing those at the cost of an additional 3000 healing power would make them squishier.

    I agree that some classes have too much sustain without healing power, but your example is probably the worst one you could have possibly went for.
    Revs sustain by chaining evades, so they won't get hit by your nerf per say. Same with ranger.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @googel.3278 said:
    Kek, sounds like someone wants ele to not be toppled against having another class that can do better, pretty sure nike eles alon with massive sustain and heals want more out from their bargain. “anet pls give me more runs”

    The best option would be to cut by 80% the current sustain of all specs that don't use a healing amulet to have sustain.... like it has always been eles, for example I would cut **Monk's focus ** from base 2k heal to 300 at 0 healing power , I would do so for all specs and also lower the dmg coefficient of all specs that do zerker level of dmg while using amulets like demolisher or paladin...you should go glass cannon with zero sustain to have burst..like eles do.

    How that sound like idea?

    That idea sounds absolutely, incredibly stupid. Guardian has 11k base health and is one of two classes that doesn't have any evade frames on either weapon or utility skills. It also has less blocks than most other classes out there, with the exception of Ele, thief and necro. It is the only class without any form of swiftness in their "meta" build since HoT.

    So if you want to have a slow, sluggish class with no damage (if you're forced into healing power) then go right ahead.

    The reason Ele has sustain isn't because of healing power. It's sole reason why it stays alive is the massive amount of evade frames, and invuln frames they have. Namely Riptide, Earthern Vortex, Twist of Faith and Obsidian Flesh. Losing those at the cost of an additional 3000 healing power would make them squishier.

    I agree that some classes have too much sustain without healing power, but your example is probably the worst one you could have possibly went for.
    Revs sustain by chaining evades, so they won't get hit by your nerf per say. Same with ranger.

    To be precise, that's sword/focus weaver (as cheesy as it can get). I don't have that much luxury on my core ele :/ I kinda agree with both of you though, some specs have too much sustain without stat investment, and low stat classes aren't always rewarded for investing into healing power. I wish healing power somehow mitigates condition damage, like toughness does for direct damage.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

    Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

    0/10 bait.

  • @knite.1542 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

    Whats the issue again?

    An entire 2? Then it's settled. Holo is fine. I support this conclusion.

    Since you clearly fail to see the point and went the sarcastic route, I'll wait to see if/when you get it. When ya do, then we can continue the conversation.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

    Whats the issue again?

    An entire 2? Then it's settled. Holo is fine. I support this conclusion.

    Since you clearly fail to see the point and went the sarcastic route, I'll wait to see if/when you get it. When ya do, then we can continue the conversation.

    The problem with Holo is how much it gets baseline from the spec. It's a free high damage kit with what amounts to a free healing signet through heat therapy then you buff that up via traits. So what this means is when there's no condition specs to worry about they are a very strong high pressure bruiser. When there's condi builds they can switch to Prot Holo with varying amounts of stats for either almost infinite sustain or quite a bit of damage while being very hard to kill. Alternatively they can swap in a cleansing sigil and leadership rune which if combined with Power Wrench can give more cleansing power as well as more frequent use of 1 of 2 insanely strong elites.

    It's basically a do it all spec at the moment with no real trade offs apart from try not to get caught with your pants down. Yes I got your point of run a counter, usually conditions.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    PLUS their visual clutter spam fest works as camouflage to their atacks.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • I guess I'll try to figure out how to play Holo now that ANet has ruined the Scrapper. Thanks guys for the encouraging thread. I was about to give up on the game

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

    Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

    0/10 bait.

    very much depending on the player, the build they run, the skills of the opposing players

    if you are talking about plat or above, sure the burst classes may kill them on 1v1

    but if you are talking about under plat, the majority of the time weaver will not have issue winning 1v1 against burst classes; i believe the flavour the of the month is to jump into mid node fight with obsidian flesh, pump out lots of barrier, kill a guys or two and riptide out

    don't get me wrong, i do love playing weaver because it's an extremely fun class to play for me, but I do find their sustain to be slightly over tuned, Anet just need to bring things down by 5-10% so it can become a high risk high reward class like power revs

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Tried condi renegade today for the first time. rekt 2 holo's.

    Whats the issue again?

    I once dodge rolled with a Condi DrD and killed a Holosmith.

  • The sustain of holosmith isn't the issue, engineer has always operated under a medium / low healthpool and uses ( arguably the best heal skill in the game ) in conjuction with leap/ blast finishers in water fields to resustain. This isn't news, it's good at everything - and good against everything. I'm talking about tools holo here btw, thats the DPS spec. Among players of equal skill it can 1v1 most classes with the exception of weaver, it also is one of the best teamfight options as it has loads of CC, team support / utility, as well very high damage output. It also does extremely well in smaller fights, 2v2s, ect. The reason for this is because previously CI mirage was the thing keeping holosmith from being so dominating, the on demand instant CC to catch the healing turret as well as constant condi pressure and immob lockdown kept holo from shining, but now that CI has been disabled we've seen what holo can do unchecked.
    Honestly - I'm no expert on Holo so I won't pretend I know exactly what should be done to balance it - but it seems like anet took a step in the right direction with the suggestion shockwave range decrease.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    How can a holosmtih with a demolisher amulet heals for far more than a mender tempest ?

    They don't.

    Interrupt their heal. Interrupt their combo finishers in their water field if you miss the intterrupt on their heal.

    Easier said than done considering you can expect a holosmith to both be covered by Stability a majority of the time and/or do it while quickness boosted, or while dropping a quickness boosted Toss Elixir S, then doing it.

    But seriously, I've done the math. Healing Turret is heads and shoulders above almost every healing outside of extremely situational healing skills like Herald's Infuse Light and Warrior's Defensive Stance even before they start comboing into the field with other skills.

    theyre not covered in stab a majority of the time though

    you dodge corona, you negate their 1 of 2 forms of stab (other coming from elixir) - you should be avoiding corona anyway.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    I dont know what everyone is complaining about, killing holos is easy. Let me break it down for you.

    1. First you need to reflect their rifle net/knockback, if you dont have reflect you need to dodge/block etc.
    2. Then they will do their rifle 5 leap or forge 2, both hit for a lot so you need to dodge that too. also they probably used their stab+quickness elixir so you cant cc them, you have to dodge.
    3. Next they will do their forge 3 which gives them more stab, so you need to dodge that too.
    4. After this comes their real burst with forge 5/4. This is a strong mid-ranged cc burst so its very important that you dodge this.
    5. At this point you have a very small opening to retaliate. The holo usually will kite away and use their block utility so you need to use your unblockable burst in order to damage them. If you dont have unblockable burst you need to wait out the 3s block duration, While avoiding their strong constant ranged damage.
    6. Now is the time to do some damage, assuming they havent stealthed, gone invuln, or kited away with forge 2.
    7. If you manage to get them below 50% hp, their passive barrier&protection will proc which means you probably cant kill them now, you need to wait for the barrier&protection to fade away.
    8. The holo probably has forge ready again, so you need to dodge their forge 3, 4, 5 and dodge/block their autos since you cant kite them.
    9. Assuming you have played nearly perfectly up until this point, this is your chance to go for the kill. You need to burst them from around 50% - 0% before they can react and use their invuln. If they manage to get it off, they will run away, heal to full using their turret, and reset the fight from step 1.

    If you get cced at any time, you need to stunbreak immediately and use your other defensive cooldowns, otherwise you will be chain cced, or chased down and killed since you cant kite them. Also if they are running the elite elixir, you need to save your defensive cooldowns in case they get rampage, and if they are using prime light beam its a 1200 range unblockable cc that does a ton of damage, so you need to dodge that too.

    Its really easy guys.

    Of course! Let's worry about the 9 things in sequence we have to do to kill a holosmith in order while we have the constant pressure of 4 other players to worry about!

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    I dont know what everyone is complaining about, killing holos is easy. Let me break it down for you.

    1. First you need to reflect their rifle net/knockback, if you dont have reflect you need to dodge/block etc.
    2. Then they will do their rifle 5 leap or forge 2, both hit for a lot so you need to dodge that too. also they probably used their stab+quickness elixir so you cant cc them, you have to dodge.
    3. Next they will do their forge 3 which gives them more stab, so you need to dodge that too.
    4. After this comes their real burst with forge 5/4. This is a strong mid-ranged cc burst so its very important that you dodge this.
    5. At this point you have a very small opening to retaliate. The holo usually will kite away and use their block utility so you need to use your unblockable burst in order to damage them. If you dont have unblockable burst you need to wait out the 3s block duration, While avoiding their strong constant ranged damage.
    6. Now is the time to do some damage, assuming they havent stealthed, gone invuln, or kited away with forge 2.
    7. If you manage to get them below 50% hp, their passive barrier&protection will proc which means you probably cant kill them now, you need to wait for the barrier&protection to fade away.
    8. The holo probably has forge ready again, so you need to dodge their forge 3, 4, 5 and dodge/block their autos since you cant kite them.
    9. Assuming you have played nearly perfectly up until this point, this is your chance to go for the kill. You need to burst them from around 50% - 0% before they can react and use their invuln. If they manage to get it off, they will run away, heal to full using their turret, and reset the fight from step 1.

    If you get cced at any time, you need to stunbreak immediately and use your other defensive cooldowns, otherwise you will be chain cced, or chased down and killed since you cant kite them. Also if they are running the elite elixir, you need to save your defensive cooldowns in case they get rampage, and if they are using prime light beam its a 1200 range unblockable cc that does a ton of damage, so you need to dodge that too.

    Its really easy guys.

    Of course! Let's worry about the 9 things in sequence we have to do to kill a holosmith in order while we have the constant pressure of 4 other players to worry about!

    Because you balance around 1v5s of course.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    About engi....the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

    We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world , so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

    Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

    Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....
    We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

    So I have to admit I'm disappointed you summarized all suggestions to balance holo as just magical heat therapy changes. That's just flat out wrong

    Changes slated to happen:

    • 20% Less damage on corona burst
    • 300 Less radius on Holo Shockwave

    My extended suggestions ITT alone

    • Exit Photon Forge no longer counting as a Toolbelt
    • Quickness no longer affecting wind up of corona burst
    • Elixir U cooldown nerfed
    • Heat Therapy reduced ranging from shaved to gutted, you can affect Holos performance drastically from a hard nerf to this trait, most plebs don't realize venting a bar of heat by dodges or waiting is equivalent to a healing skill.. Maybe making heat therapy only function well with high healing stat, just an idea.

    You mentioned yourself your goalpost is to take Holo from OP to UP. Seeing as that would make every Engi spec underpowered in PvP, maybe consider aiming for balance instead of whack a mole

    Nowhere in my OP I stated what you claim...what benefit would I get from seeing another class reduced from OP to UP? With all said and done, a strong reduction on quickness access would be more than welcome and possibly would be enough to reduce holo efficiency.

    Although do remember that these changes would in no way require nerfs to other classes : shaves are not hard nerfs and these changes if applied would not stop Holo from performing its intended role of brawler/side node . Holo would still maintain its mobility, above average sustain and dmg....what more could you possibly want that could not be achieved eitherway?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:
    How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

    I don't agree. There are builds that stand above others and are considered OP for a reason.

    One class (particular build) should not be able to:

    • deal crazy damage
    • have crazy sustain
    • have crazy utility
    • have a whole set of boons on demand
    • have access to strong CC
    • have invulnerability

    all at once and on its own.

    It's never going to be a good design. Sure, Engi at its core is a hybrid class and should be jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

    Every build must have a weakness.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    About engi....the only hard nerf was the removal of passive Elixir S and a slap on the wrist with corona blast stability trait....let's not consider the "removal" of rifle shooting without LoS as nerfs...other professions got that treatment several years ago ( like ele phoenix or comet ).

    We are here today because everybody else got hard nerfed already and engi got left out and my thought is because it doesn't seem to be very popular in pve raids or general open world , so the devs drag their feet with engi when it comes to nerfs

    Your first mistake was looking at it by each profession as a whole. Second mistake was purposefully leaving out that Engi(Scrapper) had Rapid Regeneration, Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Recovery Matrix, F5 skill all functionally deleted in favor of things that have much less sustain and utility. You went through every spec that recently got gutted, but I'm guessing Scrapper didn't make your thorough list of nerfs every profession has gotten cause' it didn't fit your narrative that ArenaNet purposefully let's Engineers fall under the radar. It's in the same boat that Druid is. Keep the discussion to Holo specifically and you won't look as biased

    Some number nerfing on Heat therapy won't magically cause a drop of Holo from OP to UP state and we both know that....
    We first nerf the overperforming specs and then we keep going with the conversation which by the way would require all parties involved to have working knowledge of all other classes and the conditions under which they operate, that does not seem to be the case now...unless you want to tell us why other specs should be nerfed

    So I have to admit I'm disappointed you summarized all suggestions to balance holo as just magical heat therapy changes. That's just flat out wrong

    Changes slated to happen:

    • 20% Less damage on corona burst
    • 300 Less radius on Holo Shockwave

    My extended suggestions ITT alone

    • Exit Photon Forge no longer counting as a Toolbelt
    • Quickness no longer affecting wind up of corona burst
    • Elixir U cooldown nerfed
    • Heat Therapy reduced ranging from shaved to gutted, you can affect Holos performance drastically from a hard nerf to this trait, most plebs don't realize venting a bar of heat by dodges or waiting is equivalent to a healing skill.. Maybe making heat therapy only function well with high healing stat, just an idea.

    You mentioned yourself your goalpost is to take Holo from OP to UP. Seeing as that would make every Engi spec underpowered in PvP, maybe consider aiming for balance instead of whack a mole

    Nowhere in my OP I stated what you claim...what benefit would I get from seeing another class reduced from OP to UP? With all said and done, a strong reduction on quickness access would be more than welcome and possibly would be enough to reduce holo efficiency.

    Although do remember that these changes would in no way require nerfs to other classes : shaves are not hard nerfs and these changes if applied would not stop Holo from performing its intended role of brawler/side node . Holo would still maintain its mobility, above average sustain and dmg....what more could you possibly want that could not be achieved eitherway?

    A build that can outrun a thief while mass healing the whole team, while stealthing, aoe cc in a large area, stealth, burst....deserve no nerf threads? ...kk Can we have the same thing on other professions then? Make stealth access available to all classes on top of that

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • I am positive the devs are not listening on this matter. Players have shown over and over what is broke, and instead they choose something random to nerf. Sometimes as a dev you have to accept that a thousand eyes can see more than your own.

  • @Alatar.7364 said:

    @H a z Z y.1762 said:
    Played holo for a week to learn it. Now i just harrass them with condi thief and they're far from OP in my games =)

    Not sure if "I took one cheese and a hard counter against other cheese so it's not OP" should be a valid statement.

    Given Anet's current balancing strategy i'd say yes: meta builds are just ridiculously strong at certain things any everything seems to revolve around counters. The meta builds are meta because they have fewer counters than everyone else.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    Range decrease on HSW and decrease in dps of Corona lmao yeah that will do it easily. Not like the class still has short CD in forge, too much cc, damage, mix of top notch melee and range, invisibility, insane healing, block, invulnerability etc etc. The class will still be crazy powercrept, wouldn't be surprised if the rolled out couple changes to scrapper and or scourge that in some way makes them broken op, or the changes will end up not being enough to change much lol. Dh bow or in general get nothing, druid is bland and half a spec now only used in fractals for healing mostly lol great design for a spec that could have been so much more. No real changes to fb to change the boring kitten bobbing mess in wvw and scourge changes as well will change nothing. Seems like 1/4 or more traits in every traitline are so underpowered and never used compared to either ok traits or OP traits that are always used in every build. Man just goes on. Sure they've made some attempts but their so small and infrequent.
    Take a look at eso forums they have soo much more activity going g on and ofcourse balance isnt great their either but their big balance patches are just that- big. They change the metas frequently and one meta melee is king another magic ir it could be dot dps like it is now. Classes that were just ok can end up great and vice versa no one wants there class to sink but it's better than the same few specs using the same few builds over and over for yrs. Both wow and eso have a inferior combat system compared to gw2 yet the population in both those games pvp scene are far higher,why is that? Lol

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    How? I mean really how? I have met my share of good holosmiths but their skill lvl was higher then me. They wouldve won with any other profession. I have slain my share of holos too and they are not that horrible really. According to the forums every profession is OP and needs immediate and harsh nerfs. And people give tournament champs as an example when majority of the players do not see even gold. It is impossible to debate on a class in this forum meta.

    I don't agree. There are builds that stand above others and are considered OP for a reason.

    One class (particular build) should not be able to:

    • deal crazy damage
    • have crazy sustain
    • have crazy utility
    • have a whole set of boons on demand
    • have access to strong CC
    • have invulnerability

    all at once and on its own.

    It's never going to be a good design. Sure, Engi at its core is a hybrid class and should be jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

    Every build must have a weakness.

    But every engi build does. That's what boggles me about this thread.

    • The rifle variant is very susceptible to condi damage, corruption, and CC. A good scourge can ruin this holo's day.
    • The prot variant is very susceptible to CC and spike damage. It also has poor escape and chase potential. A spike rev can ruin this holo's day.

    The problem is when you try to yolo the yolosmith, you get yolo'ed first. Try playing holo, or watching two holos fight. They engage each other in a way to exploit each other's weaknesses, presuming they both know what they're doing.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Undo.5091Undo.5091 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451
    The build Jebro is showcasing in that video isn’t the one that anyone is or should be complaining about. He’s running Gadgeteer which, while fun to play, is suboptimal compared to the actual meta setup. It’s incredibly easy to shut down an engineer running this build.

  • @knite.1542 said:

    @rwolf.9571 said:
    Had a afk Holo on point once. Had my GS glass burst mes auto on him. Instant barrier for days. As if I was tickling him with a feather.

    Although I agree that Holo sustain is high, this is probably more of an issue on your end in this specific case.

    passives are needed in this game(or it will end being a first one who hits firts won the combat, and all know what that mean in a game with stealth) but not at that extend that make a afk character hard to kill unless you blow up your cds as if you attack a active player.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The stealth on elixir would solve a lot of problems as well. I think they have enough disencages, regen, blocks, cc, and everything else without some stealth that lasts entirely too long to begin with allowing them to reset their cooldowns or set up their "burst" which is basically just every other ability.

  • Today is balance patch though?

  • @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Today is balance patch though?

    Tomorrow

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

    Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

    0/10 bait.

    very much depending on the player, the build they run, the skills of the opposing players

    if you are talking about plat or above, sure the burst classes may kill them on 1v1

    but if you are talking about under plat, the majority of the time weaver will not have issue winning 1v1 against burst classes; i believe the flavour the of the month is to jump into mid node fight with obsidian flesh, pump out lots of barrier, kill a guys or two and riptide out

    don't get me wrong, i do love playing weaver because it's an extremely fun class to play for me, but I do find their sustain to be slightly over tuned, Anet just need to bring things down by 5-10% so it can become a high risk high reward class like power revs

    They are not meant to be high risk, high reward???

    Nani??? They are a side node bunker class?? Huh?? You gonna give Weaver the scrapper treatment by forcing them to go damage like they did scrapper??

    You do not give one spec the treatment of a role they CLEARLY are not meant for.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Today is balance patch though?

    Tomorrow

    Doubtful. They usually don't pair balance patches with content releases.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Today is balance patch though?

    Tomorrow

    Doubtful. They usually don't pair balance patches with content releases.

    But they DO drop balance patches mid season and look where we are now. I'd personally bet gold on it.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

    Crossing them again hoping...

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

    Crossing them again hoping...

    Apparently you haven't read the last 2 years of patch notes, but you do you.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

    I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

    I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

    then why are you shifting attention away from poison thief

  • Dont fight them to win. 😛

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2019

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

    Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

    0/10 bait.

    Holos are better weavers. Thats just it. Bigger range of attacks, better animations (without being locked in them, can better fake em), bigger damage, better heal without depending on healing power etc. It "outplays" weaver in almost every way. Also, its one of Weaver hard counters.

    As one of weaver duelers, I dont agree with your statement (talking about sw/d, not sw/fc). Vs teefs its favourable mu, just predict and dodge in time. Shatter depends how the mezmer plays on distance, but Id say its even chances. Herald if kiting well is favoured, but its quite possible beating even best ones. Spellbroken is rather stalemate, berzerker has no chances if you wont kitten your dodges, core hits hard and I think he's favoured here, but still doable or at least stalemate. Ranger after nerfs is favoured for you or stalemate if he went too far in defenses. Guardians...really? Reapers, if you predict and properly outplay there shouldn't be much issues, versus best ones I won like 3:1, doable for both sides.

    Ofc high burst is painful for weavers to deal with, but if he doesnt oneshot you then you can heal pretty quickly and restart the fight you were not expecting at the beginning. Thats why situation where at least two high burst builds "gank" Weaver is very dangerous, one puts pressure in "damage holes" of the other one, and fight will most likely end in 10s after popping all defenses ^.^

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    weavers are worse than holos when it comes to sustain and mobility, can easily jump into a fight with 3 bruts and run away if things doesnt look to go too well

    Wrong, Weaver gets popped by any and all thieves, any form of shatter mesmer, meta herald, Spellbreaker (or warrior in all forms) , Ranger, high dps guardians, reapers.

    Anything that does any form of high power breaks Weaver in two as soon as those dodges and evades. Best part is, is they can't evade as much as DD, so they still are mediocre. Also they have maybe one stability ability that is also bugged. So, no, they are not 'worse'.

    0/10 bait.

    Holos are better weavers. Thats just it. Bigger range of attacks, better animations (without being locked in them, can better fake em), bigger damage, better heal without depending on healing power etc. It "outplays" weaver in almost every way. Also, its one of Weaver hard counters.

    As one of weaver duelers, I dont agree with your statement (talking about sw/d, not sw/fc). Vs teefs its favourable mu, just predict and dodge in time. Shatter depends how the mezmer plays on distance, but Id say its even chances. Herald if kiting well is favoured, but its quite possible beating even best ones. Spellbroken is rather stalemate, berzerker has no chances if you wont kitten your dodges, core hits hard and I think he's favoured here, but still doable or at least stalemate. Ranger after nerfs is favoured for you or stalemate if he went too far in defenses. Guardians...really? Reapers, if you predict and properly outplay there shouldn't be much issues, versus best ones I won like 3:1, doable for both sides.

    Ofc high burst is painful for weavers to deal with, but if he doesnt oneshot you then you can heal pretty quickly and restart the fight you were not expecting at the beginning. Thats why situation where at least two high burst builds "gank" Weaver is very dangerous, one puts pressure in "damage holes" of the other one, and fight will most likely end in 10s after popping all defenses ^.^

    About guardians ( rare build )

    1) Honour hybrid Firebrand axe/shield + GS or sword/focus can stalemate or kill the weaver, especially the fire weaver which lack optimal condi clear where the FB can pump up immobilize/blind/weakness/burn/cripple with ease thx to Mantra of Truth, they have more CC than you can escape from with Axe pull, tome F1 pull and taunt , finally shield knockback and tome F3 second taunt..all on quite short CD

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    The only trouble I have as a Weaver are mesmers and warriors. Mesmers can kite for years and warriors have enough burst combined with CC to shut down your rotation.

    If you play defensively though, you can stall any fight you like, even if you're not a bunker. But that would be counter productive in conquest cause the Meta has changed to +1's and controlling mid by high burst.

    Theifs, necros, and guardians are quite easy to burst. All three of them die to one perfectly timed skill (primordial stance).

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel Holo has to maybe blast finishers on to low of a cooldown. If they didn't have so many they wouldn't have so much healing.

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Why are you shifting attention away from condition mesmer

    I mean, holos can easily disorient condition mesmers. Sure, I wouldn't advise them to duel or anything, but in a team fight against a condi mes.. having a holo to spam away the clones and dish out that sweet cc and those water fields, as long as your team isn't completely hopeless you've got a pretty good chance of at very least running that mirage's ability to help out their team.

    why is condi mirage mentioned with teamfighting? any decent one avoids it like a plague. any even the worst of the worst firebrands makes condi mirage close to useless.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I've been crossing my fingers about holo for almost 2 years now.

    Crossing them again hoping...

    Apparently you haven't read the last 2 years of patch notes, but you do you.

    Similar to how mesmer saw tons and tons of nerfs across all aspects of the class and mirage still remains excellent,

    Holosmith receiving piecemeal nerfs doesn't matter in the face of it being considered one of if not the single best class for ranked. When other classes get nerfs they suffer stuff like

    "Full Counter: The damage applied by this skill in competitive modes has been reduced from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE."

    Or something like Mesmer's Confusing Images getting something like

    "The physical damage of this skill has been split and reduced by 50% in PvP and WvW."

    With other professions that are grossly overperforming Arenanet is more than happy to toss out literally 50%-66% damage nerfs at them.

    Whereas Holosmith with holosmiths, the only two serious serious nerfs the elite specialization ever suffered that actually hindered it's performance and shifted the outcome in certain fights in a noticable way was the Minesweeper nerf and the Auto Elixir S nerf. Normally when Holosmith gets nerfed it's stuff like;

    Holo Leap which was originally capable of criting for 9k in SPvP on a 2 second cooldown getting nerfs like this

    "Reduced damage by 17% in PvP only."

    Holosmith's 2s cooldown 9k damage leap gets an extremely careful and minor 17% reduction so it only hits for 8k+ until 6 months later they very careful hit it with another "The damage of this skill has been reduced by 17% in PvP only."

    You're right in that holosmith has been nerfed. Almost all of said nerfs are minor. Something like Blunderbuss respecting line of sight is not a noteworthy nerf. No longer being able to fire Net Shots in reverse is not a noteworthy nerf. Toss Elixir U no longer granting quickness is not a noteworthy nerf. Even Toolbelt Disable on Overheat is not a noteworthy nerf. These are all joke nerfs compared to what other classes have had.

    And 2 years of joke nerfs to Holosmith compared to 2 years of very serious nerfs towards every other profession has left us in a meta where Holosmith is widely agreed to be the best build in ranked right now. You go watch someone like Vallun and see him game after game in platinum with 30%-60% holosmith representation. 40% Holosmith representation a frequent occurrence.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

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