Updated Sept. Engi Balance Changes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Updated Sept. Engi Balance Changes

Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 7, 2019 in Engineer

Items

Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Engineer

Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 60 (no longer 75s) seconds in WvW.
Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

  • So here we see ArenaNet listening to feedback on Antitoxin runes, keeping Purge Gyro at 5 in WvW. Excellent change
  • Less severe Sneak Gyro WvW nerf
  • Photon Forge nerfs, 20% Corona Burst damage and big range reduction on Shockwave, 600 to 300.
  • Impact Savant nerf reduction! Only penalizes 180vit. Also talk of letting Condi Scrapper exist through impact Savant.

Seems like they listened a lot to player feedback.

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Forum Lord Chaith

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Comments

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    The holographic shockwave range nerf is pretty big but overall, I think holosmith will still be a pretty dominate roaming class. Not too concerned about the corona burst nerf.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Items

    Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    Engineer

    Purge Gyro: Reduce the number of cleansing pulses from 5 to 3 in WvW. Pending the superior rune of antitoxin change, this may stay at 5 cleansing pulses.
    Sneak Gyro: Increase the cooldown of this ability from 45 to 60 (no longer 75s) seconds in WvW.
    Corona Burst: The existing split from PvP of reduced might gain is brought to WvW. Reduced the damage of this ability by 20% in PvP and WvW.
    Holographic Shockwave: Reduced range from 600 to 300.
    Impact Savant: See if there is a way to include condition damage on this trait globally. Reduce the vitality loss of this trait from 300 to 180 in WvW and PvP.
    Chemical Field: This skill is replaced by Detection Pulse (from the old Sneak Gyro elite toolbelt) as the toolbelt skill for Purge Gyro.

    • So here we see ArenaNet listening to feedback on Antitoxin runes, keeping Purge Gyro at 5 in WvW. Excellent change
    • Less severe Sneak Gyro WvW nerf
    • Photon Forge nerfs, 20% Corona Burst damage and big range reduction on Shockwave, 600 to 300.
    • Impact Savant nerf reduction! Only penalizes 180vit. Also talk of letting Condi Scrapper exist through impact Savant.

    Seems like they listened a lot to player feedback.

    Yes! I am in favour of most of these. Sneak Gyro cooldown increase will be annoying for small scale and IMO not make a dent in large-scale, but whatever. It's a powerful effect.

    Photon Forge nerfs have been a long time coming. Holo Shockwave has always felt like it goes waaay too far for a pbaoe cc. I think 300 is a better range. ~400 tops.

    I can hold out some small hope that condi scrapper might be a thing again too.

    Antitoxin rune nerf needs to happen. It's too effective at what it does - and I say this having played a lot of support scrapper in wvw.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    Alright, fine. The change to the antitoxin rune is excellent.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @knite.1542 said:
    The holographic shockwave range nerf is pretty big but overall, I think holosmith will still be a pretty dominate roaming class. Not too concerned about the corona burst nerf.

    The shockwave radius has been ridiculous from the start. You cant see it on an engie since we dont get an AoE indicator, but we do have a comparison - its literally as large as the supply drain on a treb. And anyone thats stood in one knows that field is frikkin huge.

    I really want to see if they can make impact savant work with condi, despite the sneak gyro nerf hurting that change makes me hopeful.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not enough of a change for holo. Needs major damage nerfs or sustain nerfs.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019
    • The change to rune of antitoxin was sufficient enough to reduce the impact of cleansing scrappers. I don't think they need to double-whammy purge gyro.
    • Sneak gyro change is fine.
    • Change to corona burst is fine.
    • HS change strikes me as a little odd for a WvW-focused balance change, seems more relevant to sPvP. But, I don't play WvW enough to really have a stake in this one.
    • Impact Savant change is immensely appreciated. This change would be sufficient to see offensive scrapper become relevant again.
    • Chemical field change feels thematically inappropriate, even if it's kind of a buff for WvW support scrapper. I think it might be smarter to leave chemical field, but add an AoE reveal onto the poison field.

    Overall... alright. I'm glad to see they listened on several of the changes. It'll be nice to see more utility in offensive scrapper builds.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Shockwave was too kitten big.

    Good nerf.

    That skill had the AoE range of a Daredevil Swipe.

    That's a hugeeee wave.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    The holo wave bites a little, but should still be workable. I'm fine with this on paper, will have to see ingame

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

    1. Propose an insane change.
    2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
    3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

    Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    Uhh, more PTSD, less Stockholm syndrome. Remember what they did to turrets?

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

    1. Propose an insane change.
    2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
    3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

    Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    Uhh, more PTSD, less Stockholm syndrome. Remember what they did to turrets?

    u mean removing the ability to throw ur turrets to places unreachable to other players? fml

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:mods).
    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    I dunno if being happy that ArenaNet is lessening nerfs on Scrapper is Stockholm Syndrome. Scrapper needed nerfs. They shuffled a few damage traits around pointlessly, stripped away all passive sustain, and really flubbed Function Gyro. We're all angry with how these changes flailed about and messed up perfectly good things instead of efficiently dealing with the too-survivable problem.

    I would consider Scrapper pretty much working as intended when:

    • Function Gyro gets its health fixed, or better yet becomes a well like every other Gyro, with the same radius and affecting traits.
    • Damage Dampener does something to reduce incoming damage like: "If you have a barrier, the delayed damage is reduced by 50%" or something similar.
    • Adaptive Armor gets a little something, like, increased barriers by 20-25%, up from 15%.
    • Impact Savant gets a little something, like barrier conversion to 20-25%, up from 15%.

    Seriously? Lol a good scrapper already takes 2 people to take down, these buffs u might as well run 4 in conquest and just camp nodes lmao

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Seriously? Lol a good scrapper already takes 2 people to take down, these buffs u might as well run 4 in conquest and just camp nodes lmao

    Two things:

    1) A good scrapper is not good in conquest right now. I'm a good Scrapper, Holo can be built to be more survivable and dangerous...
    2) You probably don't understand my suggestions very well. I'm suggesting all Scrappers get a working Function Gyro and convert at least an additional +5% more damage to Barrier. For major traits, I'm saying that for Damage Dampener to be equal to Object In Motion. Object in motion is a 10-15% more damage under realistic conditions. I'm suggesting Damage Dampener be around a 10% damage reduction under realistic conditions, not unreasonable for a major trait going up against Object In Motion, my dude. As it is right now, Adaptive Armor is quite trash, it's clearly the worst of the 3 Grandmasters. Doing a minimum +5% to barrier generation in combination with the previous suggestions not going to double the amount of people you can tank.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

    1. Propose an insane change.
    2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
    3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

    Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    Uhh, more PTSD, less Stockholm syndrome. Remember what they did to turrets?

    u mean removing the ability to throw ur turrets to places unreachable to other players? fml

    Way more than that. Turrets (except HT) were rendered largely inoperable for a few years.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    Way more than that. Turrets (except HT) were rendered largely inoperable to this very day.

    just a bit of an adjustment

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:mods).
    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    I dunno if being happy that ArenaNet is lessening nerfs on Scrapper is Stockholm Syndrome. Scrapper needed nerfs. They shuffled a few damage traits around pointlessly, stripped away all passive sustain, and really flubbed Function Gyro. We're all angry with how these changes flailed about and messed up perfectly good things instead of efficiently dealing with the too-survivable problem.

    I would consider Scrapper pretty much working as intended when:

    • Function Gyro gets its health fixed, or better yet becomes a well like every other Gyro, with the same radius and affecting traits.
    • Damage Dampener does something to reduce incoming damage like: "If you have a barrier, the delayed damage is reduced by 50%" or something similar.
    • Adaptive Armor gets a little something, like, increased barriers by 20-25%, up from 15%.
    • Impact Savant gets a little something, like barrier conversion to 20-25%, up from 15%.

    Whole heartedly agree with this.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:mods).
    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    I dunno if being happy that ArenaNet is lessening nerfs on Scrapper is Stockholm Syndrome. Scrapper needed nerfs. They shuffled a few damage traits around pointlessly, stripped away all passive sustain, and really flubbed Function Gyro. We're all angry with how these changes flailed about and messed up perfectly good things instead of efficiently dealing with the too-survivable problem.

    I would consider Scrapper pretty much working as intended when:

    • Function Gyro gets its health fixed, or better yet becomes a well like every other Gyro, with the same radius and affecting traits.
    • Damage Dampener does something to reduce incoming damage like: "If you have a barrier, the delayed damage is reduced by 50%" or something similar.
    • Adaptive Armor gets a little something, like, increased barriers by 20-25%, up from 15%.
    • Impact Savant gets a little something, like barrier conversion to 20-25%, up from 15%.

    Whole heartedly agree with this.

    So scrapper gets even more sustain? Umm no.

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So scrapper gets even more sustain? Umm no.

    Are you at all aware of what a bad spot scrapper is in since the rework?

    Basically the only real sustain going for it is the bulwark gyro, and the hammer defenses.

    Scrappers were killable before, they're even more killable now

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So scrapper gets even more sustain? Umm no.

    If you want to be a tanky defensive node holder, an Inventions Prot Holo does everything better at once than Scrapper. We're talking superior survivability, superior damage threat, way better offensive utility through superior CC, and until Function Gyro starts working well, it has better defensive utility through Hard Light Arena's condi clear and protection. Scrapper has gotten beaten with the ugly stick so much that it's just the poster boy for masochism, since prot Holo does everything better, and tools Holo is the premier damage build.

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    Are you at all aware of what a bad spot scrapper is in since the rework?

    Basically the only real sustain going for it is the bulwark gyro, and the hammer defenses.

    Scrappers were killable before, they're even more killable now

    Game balance not really important to some people if it doesn't personally add enjoyment for them, but yeah, after 3 replies now, if leaving Scrapper be a strictly worse Holo at every role in PvP (even a tank/support) isn't a problem to him, it won't be if we keep replying.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @miriforst.1290 said:mods).
    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    I dunno if being happy that ArenaNet is lessening nerfs on Scrapper is Stockholm Syndrome. Scrapper needed nerfs. They shuffled a few damage traits around pointlessly, stripped away all passive sustain, and really flubbed Function Gyro. We're all angry with how these changes flailed about and messed up perfectly good things instead of efficiently dealing with the too-survivable problem.

    I would consider Scrapper pretty much working as intended when:

    • Function Gyro gets its health fixed, or better yet becomes a well like every other Gyro, with the same radius and affecting traits.
    • Damage Dampener does something to reduce incoming damage like: "If you have a barrier, the delayed damage is reduced by 50%" or something similar.
    • Adaptive Armor gets a little something, like, increased barriers by 20-25%, up from 15%.
    • Impact Savant gets a little something, like barrier conversion to 20-25%, up from 15%.

    Whole heartedly agree with this.

    So scrapper gets even more sustain? Umm no.

    I'd rather have more sustain than none because the damage isn't high enough to make that 15% damage to barrier conversion worthwhile, or even remotely decent. So no matter how you look at it, it's still an upgrade from what we currently have: nothing.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    I'd rather have more sustain than none because the damage isn't high enough to make that 15% damage to barrier conversion worthwhile, or even remotely decent. So no matter how you look at it, it's still an upgrade from what we currently have: nothing.

    The important thing is that Scrapper gets Function Gyro working for it, and your res utility becomes significant.

    I would actually be okay if they just left Damage Dampener and Adaptive Armor as being objectively weak traits, a lot of Scrappers I'm guessing just are ignoring them currently.

    If Scrapper was less survivable than Holo could be built, that wouldn't be the end of the world - however, there'd have to be a viable damage build for it to find a place, and that's very difficult, it would require fundamental changes to Scrapper's damage application methods... it's seemingly not going to happen. Scrapper kind of has to be a better tank and defensive utility than Holo is, that's just my best conclusion.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    I'd rather have more sustain than none because the damage isn't high enough to make that 15% damage to barrier conversion worthwhile, or even remotely decent. So no matter how you look at it, it's still an upgrade from what we currently have: nothing.

    The important thing is that Scrapper gets Function Gyro working for it, and your res utility becomes significant.

    I would actually be okay if they just left Damage Dampener and Adaptive Armor as being objectively weak traits, a lot of Scrappers I'm guessing just are ignoring them currently.

    If Scrapper was less survivable than Holo could be built, that wouldn't be the end of the world - however, there'd have to be a viable damage build for it to find a place, and that's very difficult, it would require fundamental changes to Scrapper's damage application methods... it's seemingly not going to happen. Scrapper kind of has to be a better tank and defensive utility than Holo is, that's just my best conclusion.

    It's rather unfortunate when an elite spec that was "supposed" to focus more around pure damage/dueling capability tanks much better than the elite spec that's supposed to be focused on tanking/bruiser style gameplay. #MSGA Make Scrapper Great Again

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019
                                                      duplicate post
    

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Yeah holo has better sustain/dps compared to scrapper for sure but holo is definitely over performing so comparing scrapper to such a spec doesn't really work out well. Scrapper definitely should get a buff in dps cuz being all tank and no spank is a boring spec to play and play against. I'd say scrappers sustain should be slightly lowered but I'd should get a significant buff to dps to put it more in line with something that's hits good and tanks good as well instead of hitting poorly but tanking great. Holo right now does both to a great degree which is a bit much.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    At some point you just have to ask yourself, do I want two elite specs that do the exact same thing?

    I don't know how Anet doesn't see it. They are standing too close to it, maybe. I've stuck with core because it at least feels unique, albeit outdated and half-working.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Yeah holo has better sustain/dps compared to scrapper for sure but holo is definitely over performing so comparing scrapper to such a spec doesn't really work out well. Scrapper definitely should get a buff in dps cuz being all tank and no spank is a boring spec to play and play against. I'd say scrappers sustain should be slightly lowered but I'd should get a significant buff to dps to put it more in line with something that's hits good and tanks good as well instead of hitting poorly but tanking great. Holo right now does both to a great degree which is a bit much.

    There is a DPS route for Scrapper, but it doesn't hit as hard as Holosmith's (and it shouldn't, as it's supposed to be focused around tanking). And I agree with Chaith, if Scrapper gets a significant damage buff to compete with holo, then it's pretty much just holo 2.0. I wouldn't want that. Instead, anet needs to improve where scrapper is supposed to be strong: its defensive kit. And, really, on that factor, all that needs to be done is simply raise Adaptive Armor and Impact Savant from 15% to 20%, or 25% (include condi damage), depending on what testing results yield. Now, i'm not saying this is the only thing needing improved, as Function Gyro still needs a health increase so it doesn't die to 1 downed state auto attack anymore.

    The issue with scrapper currently is the -300 vitality trade off for the on demand barrier for hits. While it is a great idea, the problem lies in the barrier application; unless you're a glass cannon, you're not doing enough damage to truly benefit as a tank from the barrier gain, and if you are a glass cannon, well....you have no defense so you're not tanky at all, despite the barrier gain, every hit you take will destroy your barrier and your health rapidly. the changes that Chaith suggested and that I also have been preaching for will put Scrapper in a spot where it's not super tanky like before with old Adaptive Armor (1100+ barrier every 3 seconds when struck, big barrier), but it's not going to die as easily as it does now (current implementation of Impact Savant's 15% damage to barrier convsersion).

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Uuuhh I see my condi scrapper playing 3v1 again when barrier-on-condi becomes a Thing .

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Prinzsecond.4863 said:
    Uuuhh I see my condi scrapper playing 3v1 again when barrier-on-condi becomes a Thing .

    You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

    You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @miriforst.1290 said:
    I can't help feeling like we are being haggled with.

    1. Propose an insane change.
    2. Propose a lighter change that seems reasonable by comparison, use this momentum to suggest further changes.
    3. People forget the class took a massive nerf that broke core aspects of the scrapper and that this patch is at best implementing some light nerfs and reimplementing a tool they took away (and probably in a weaker form) at the cost of another (poison field for downed cleave and weakness). Notice how there are no proposed changes to the function gyro itself.

    Honestly the reduction in vitality penalty is still undercooked given id argue the trait isn't worth any vitality reduction at all given the removal of vital traits like rapid regen and adaptive armor (to name a few of the big hits, just ignoring the removal of stab on dodge and damage mods).

    Honestly i'm not surprised if people are gonna go stockholm syndrome over this.

    Good thing i got the original game (not gw2, the real guild wars) to wait for people to figure things out.

    Except if you know how Anet patch things, this is exactly whats needed. Because otherwise they do that insane thing anyway. Basicly Anet patching is like this:

    Skill: 30s cd, 6s duration

    Community peep #1: its a little OP, increase cd to 40s.
    Community peep #2: Agreed, but I think they could reduce duration to 4s too.
    Community peep #3: Nah that would be too harsh, 4s and keep the 30s cd.

    Anet: Increased cd to 90s, reduced duration to 2s

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Skill: 30s cd, 6s duration

    Community peep #1: its a little OP, increase cd to 40s.
    Community peep #2: Agreed, but I think they could reduce duration to 4s too.
    Community peep #3: Nah that would be too harsh, 4s and keep the 30s cd.

    Anet: Increased cd to 90s, reduced duration to 2s

    And with a comment "This skill was overperforming, so we listened to community opinions and tuned it down a little bit"

    [NUKE]

  • Prinzsecond.4863Prinzsecond.4863 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

    You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

    Power won't work, but condi may be. All it would Need is those 300-400 barrier/sec to make a big difference again IMO. Depending on the conversion rate, this could be possible with around 3k dps/sec.
    Before the nerf of scrapper it was also much easier to take on 3 oponents as a condi than as a power scrapper. Reason is that both your heals and your barriers benefit a lot from higher toughness, at least against power-based oponents. So sure, scrapper will never ever be able to take on 3 condi scourges at once^^ but then I would just simply walk away with superspeed as they are slow as hell.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Prinzsecond.4863 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    You think condi Scrapper is going to do so much damage that you'll be able to convert 15% of that to barrier and survive 3 people?

    You're deluding yourself, try it first with a power damage build, see how tanking 3 people goes.

    Power won't work, but condi may be. All it would Need is those 300-400 barrier/sec to make a big difference again IMO. Depending on the conversion rate, this could be possible with around 3k dps/sec.
    Before the nerf of scrapper it was also much easier to take on 3 oponents as a condi than as a power scrapper. Reason is that both your heals and your barriers benefit a lot from higher toughness, at least against power-based oponents. So sure, scrapper will never ever be able to take on 3 condi scourges at once^^ but then I would just simply walk away with superspeed as they are slow as hell.

    The reason why condi Scrapper was better than power was that toughness benefits heals and barrier?

    Outside build choices Condi Scrapper doesn't get inherently higher toughness, nor does toughness benefit healing and barriers at all.

    That's just building for toughness over vitality, putting yourself against 3 power melee opponents, and saying it's Condi Scrapper that's so good.

    The only way such a condi Scrapper is getting elevated over power Scrapper is if you're fighting melee opponents poorly equipped to deal with condi builds, and you avoid every single condi build or build with condi removal.

    You need to be doing 2000-2666 condi ticks per second to get the same barrier that being hit with passive Adaptive Armor previously gave. Encountering any condi removal will put you below that. Also you have -300 (-180) vitality, also you have a dumb Damage Dampener instead of rapid Regeneration, because Object in Motion is pointless. Also no f5, also a trivial Function Gyro skill in it's place.

    Condi Scrapper is still gonna be worse than pre-patch, worse than obscure, even once you get 15% damage to barrier conversion.

    Condi Scrapper got affected by all the same nerfs that power Scrapper did, really.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • You are ignoring the fact that this trait would output barrier both from condi and direct. Thus... A viper's build will make a ton. A harrier's build makes a lot less. But this means that on that harrier's build, the tiny poison ticks are also making barrier, along with all the extra you get from direct damage.

    Tldr, in places where current gear types don't produce enough barrier, then that barrier output will be nearly doubled. (assuming a non condi, non power build's highest dps rotation) in places where glass cannons can produce impressive barrier. (and who plays berserker's scrapper with hammer anyways) then they will produce only slightly more. And so, while we can all agree the current barrier provided by the trait is too weak... I don't understand why we're arguing about making it stronger.

    As soon as the engi your trying to kill stops trying to do damage in order to spam water fields, pop stability and the big cool downs on medkit... He's not doing damage... He's not gaining barrier. (outside of hammer, and bulwark gyro)

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    You are ignoring the fact that this trait would output barrier both from condi and direct. Thus... A viper's build will make a ton. A harrier's build makes a lot less. But this means that on that harrier's build, the tiny poison ticks are also making barrier, along with all the extra you get from direct damage.

    It doesn't work like that.

    The total damage output (and thus, the total barrier) is similar whether you spec full power, condi, or hybrid. As you take stats away from power/precision/ferocity and put them in condition damage and expertise, as you do with viper, you get proportionally lower power burst to compensate for the increased condi damage.

    I mean, feel free to prove me wrong by running some dps tests on a golem if you like, but I'm pretty sure Snow Crows have already done that and the numbers come out near-identical.

    Furthermore, both Zerker and Viper have no toughness or vitality, but Zerker guarantees its damage on hit, whereas Viper damage is very often cleansed. This puts hybrid and condition builds at an inherent disadvantage because they have to survive a not-insignificant amount of time while their conditions tick. Zerker builds kill their targets much faster so they have less need for sustain.

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    It does work exactly like that. I'm not confused about how stats work. If a full rabid guy gets some barrier, a full vipers guy will get more. Why? Vipers has higher direct. Thus higher damage to barrier conversion rate. Because there's more damage.

    Like we can both agree that full clerics gear is generating virtually zero barrier from that trait. But every class does some direct and some condi. So if you gear in clerics, then they make condi damage apply barrier in a small conversion, that cleric geared toon will get more barrier than they did before. Why? Because condi didn't calculate before, and now thier Elixer gun's poison spray is returning barrier. A lot of barrier? No. More than zero? Yes.

    Will a berserker build produce more barrier? Yep. Does that build have a few bleeds? Oh... Wait, you're stuck with main hand pistol... Or rifle. Yes.... You do. If what used to return 0% barrier becomes 15% or whatever.... I mean... I'm not all that good at math... But that's still more barrier. Like that trait doesn't have an ICD. So.... ticking conditions... Even weak ones... Keep applying barrier even when you had to break out of damage rotation for boons, or healing or whatever.

    What I would be prepared to conceded is that full berserker's and full vipers will output barrier roughly the same in total. Even if it is constant applications vs burst applications.

    But every non specialized build benifits from the change.

    So... For the one guy running full Berserker's scrapper... Sorry dude. And the same to the one dude running full vipers. But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled. Because we now have 2, (up from 1) sources that produce the effect. With no stats to multiply either effect... We have characters who invested nothing in dps stats getting an equivalent doubling of the barrier they currently produce.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    It does work exactly like that. I'm not confused about how stats work. If a full rabid guy gets some barrier, a full vipers guy will get more. Why? Vipers has higher direct. Thus higher damage to barrier conversion rate. Because there's more damage.

    Like we can both agree that full clerics gear is generating virtually zero barrier from that trait. But every class does some direct and some condi. So if you gear in clerics, then they make condi damage apply barrier in a small conversion, that cleric geared toon will get more barrier than they did before. Why? Because condi didn't calculate before, and now thier Elixer gun's poison spray is returning barrier. A lot of barrier? No. More than zero? Yes.

    Will a berserker build produce more barrier? Yep. Does that build have a few bleeds? Oh... Wait, you're stuck with main hand pistol... Or rifle. Yes.... You do. If what used to return 0% barrier becomes 15% or whatever.... I mean... I'm not all that good at math... But that's still more barrier. Like that trait doesn't have an ICD. So.... ticking conditions... Even weak ones... Keep applying barrier even when you had to break out of damage rotation for boons, or healing or whatever.

    What I would be prepared to conceded is that full berserker's and full vipers will output barrier roughly the same in total. Even if it is constant applications vs burst applications.

    But every non specialized build benifits from the change.

    So... For the one guy running full Berserker's scrapper... Sorry dude. And the same to the one dude running full vipers. But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled. Because we now have 2, (up from 1) sources that produce the effect. With no stats to multiply either effect... We have characters who invested nothing in dps stats getting an equivalent doubling of the barrier they currently produce.

    I mean, sure, technically it is a very small amount more barrier on non-dps builds, but we're talking a negligible amount here. Suppose you're using MH pistol with your support scrapper. With no condition damage, you're getting ~15 extra barrier per fragmentation shot assuming it's not cleansed. That's .. barely worth mentioning. If you're not speccing any damage, the damage-barrier conversion trait barely helps you in the first place. So yes, you're right that it technically increases the barrier, but I think the amount is too low to care about until you start putting stats and traits into damage, at which point it is balanced between power, condi, and hybrid builds.

  • Just saying. Buff for defensive stat users. And now applies to... gasp both damage types.

    We can talk about how the bonus is low. Or what % is should use, or sliding scales or whatever.

    But what I see, is a currently mostly trash trait, about to become not trash. Can't say if I see it becoming good. But it won't be trash anymore.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356
    "But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

    If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

  • sweet changes. only thing I would change is to make purge gyro a poison field.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • @Chaith.8256 said:
    @BrokenGlass.9356
    "But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

    If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

    Yep, true. But it does help your grenade kit, Elixer gun, mortar kit, tons of toolbelt skills....

    So, for a hammer build, it won't be doubled just more. Pistol and shield tho...?

    But I digress.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    @BrokenGlass.9356
    "But to the rest of the support scrappers, who run nearly zero damage stats. The barrier is doubled."

    If a support Hammer Scrapper has 0 investment in power, and 0 investment in condi, the change to Impact Savant will not double the barrier. This is because the barrier is based on outgoing damage, not stat investment. Simply having a hammer equipped will make your outgoing damage 95% power based.

    Yep, true. But it does help your grenade kit, Elixer gun, mortar kit, tons of toolbelt skills....

    So, for a hammer build, it won't be doubled just more. Pistol and shield tho...?

    But I digress.

    You get next to nothing off of pistol though unless you've got condi stats.

    • ~15 barrier per autoattack if it ticks its full duration and is not cleansed
    • ~35 barrier if you land all 5 shots of poison dart volley and they are not cleansed
    • ~10-30 barrier from static shot if it is not cleansed

    This is negligible.

    Same with any damage Elixir gun would be doing. Grenade kit and Mortar kit tend not to be run by tanky builds, but if they were, those wouldn't be generating much barrier either. Ditto for pretty much any skill without condi damage stats. An extra 100-200 barrier across a full rotation means nothing in a world where bursts regularly combo for 15-30k.

  • So.... What's your point? It is in fact a buff from its current version, but it will still suck?

    Our volley so far.

    Me- this change looks like an upgrade.
    You- you don't understand stats.
    Me- I totally do, and it's still an upgrade from what we have.
    You- OK, your right. But it still sucks. And your exact phrasing needs editing.
    Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.
    You- the buff is completely negligible, you have no reason to be excited.

    Like... I can recognize a glass half full of pee is still half full dude.

    I still care more about the level of liquid than I do it's quality on this one.

    Chalk up another loss for nihilism.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

    We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

    Chalk up another loss for nihilism

    Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Prinzsecond.4863Prinzsecond.4863 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    The reason why condi Scrapper was better than power was that toughness benefits heals and barrier?
    Outside build choices Condi Scrapper doesn't get inherently higher toughness, nor does toughness benefit healing and barriers at all.

    Nono, sorry for the misunderstanding:
    Barrier benefits from toughness the same way as healing does: indirectly due to the fact that you receive less direct damage with higher toughness. And when I am talking about condi scrapper I usually mean dire/wanderer/apothecary stuff.

    The only way such a condi Scrapper is getting elevated over power Scrapper is if you're fighting melee opponents poorly equipped to deal with condi builds, and you avoid every single condi build or build with condi removal.

    Sure, the flaw of ANY condi build is that condis can easily be removed with the right skills/traits/Equipment. I didn't mean to say that condi scrapper is generally better. However, all builds that fight outnumbered have usually outstanding survivability while doing decent damage. This is currently not the case for power scrapper, but rather possible with condi scrapper IMO.

    You need to be doing 2000-2666 condi ticks per second to get the same barrier that being hit with passive Adaptive Armor previously gave. Encountering any condi removal will put you below that.

    Sure, same as any blocks/dodges/reflects/invuls reduces power damage below 2000-2666dps in a similar way, otherwise you would kill every oponent in 6-8 seconds.
    However, the Advantage over the good old adaptive armor is that IF your condis tick, you do not Need to be hit or to actively hit to stack barrier. You can just let it tick.

    Condi Scrapper is still gonna be worse than pre-patch, worse than obscure, even once you get 15% damage to barrier conversion.

    I did not say it will be better than pre patch, but it will be better than it is now, and now it is already possible to engage many 2v1 and either win, or at least survive with condi scrapper thanks to mobility and several stealth possibilities. Similar to condi thief,

    I am curious how it will be :) if they really add condition damage to the barrior Generator it would be great

  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

    Chalk up another loss for nihilism

    That was me haha, but maybe you misunderstood, I never said you can simply outtank 3 ppl forever with the changes, that would be insane. My Initial Statement was just, that I can see myself fighting 3v1 again. Meaning to engage and survive, maybe kill 1/2/3 of them before disengaging. This is currently hardly possible.

  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

    We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

    Chalk up another loss for nihilism

    Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

    Who is we?

    Yes, you can double the barrier output on unstated builds. How? My condition buttons now work as applicators when they didn't before. If you're just uncomfortable with words like double and half... The internet is the wrong place for semantics police.

    Also, tanking 3 folk at once is only overpowered if you're killing 3 folk at once. And let's be real, my plaguedoctor scrapper can tank 3 folks at once now.... I can't kill a one of um. But I can live for long enough for the thief to capture far point and circle back around.

    Once my poison is giving back barrier, maybe I can hang out long enough to actually down one of the three.

    And for real dude, maybe nihilism is the wrong word (even if exactly the right feels) but all you have to say is why folks are wrong, why things suck, and why there's nothing to be excited about. Even when you're admitting the other person has a point it's from behind a crooked smile.

    "I'm not saying you can't be excited. Just that the thing your excited about is a raging dumpster fire, and that any attempt to warm your hands on the flames is still completely contemptible."

    Like. Give some ground. Or be better at arguing such that you don't need to.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Me- yeah, it's still a buff I'm excited about.

    We're not saying you can't be excited but we're saying you can't double your barrier gain on a support build like you calculate, or go from dumpster to extremely overpowered feats like tanking three people like you're expecting to do. (Edit: that wasn't you actually, mb)

    Chalk up another loss for nihilism

    Haha... In this case nihilism is the nametag on the strawman you just shredded

    Who is we?

    Royal we. Chaith is engineer royalty.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who is we?

    Myself and Coro, the two people replying to you primarily about the real impact of Impact Savant changes.

    Btw, nobody thinks it's contemptible as you put it that you're being excited about buffs, it's just myself and others disagree on the projected benefits you and @Prinzsecond.4863 are projecting. Right, I'll get gooder at arguing, thanks for the advice.

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    Forum Lord Chaith

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