Thoughts/Hopes/Ideas about Engineer's rework on Pistols, Turrets and Kits — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thoughts/Hopes/Ideas about Engineer's rework on Pistols, Turrets and Kits

Doutrinador.6285Doutrinador.6285 Member ✭✭
edited September 13, 2019 in Engineer

I think a pistol rework is needed for sure, for me the off hand pistol is reasonable but it can be polished, I would like to see really concrete changes in the main hand pistol. As a condition weapon or power weapon has no potential like they are now, they should focus either on condition only or power only (my preference is power, and improve the holosmith sword with a little more bleeding and also burning) on ​​main hand or so making a hybrid weapon that really works, including a better cast time cause pistol is a one handed weapon but is currently slow as a two handed weapon. Core engineer has just a few weapon options, we don't have weapon swap, and kits that should be additional weapon options don't work properly.

Another very requested and important change that the engineer needs is surely in the turrets, there are good ideas being discussed about them in other threads, devs just have to make minor balance adjustments and work on them to make it happen.

In my opinion we also need to improve the grenade kit, bomb kit and mortar kit by making them more interesting and useful, such as the flamethrower, elixir gun and toolkit style, when you have physical/condition damage associated with useful combat utilities like pull, block, knock back, fields, finishers, jumps and so on, maybe ammo system on bombs or one cast with 2-3 chain explosions (such as pulses, slightly increasing the cooldown), delayed-explosion grenades that attach onto targets hit (like the underwater weapon skill Timed Charge with a medium aoe radius explosion) and mortar with homing projectiles (like underwater weapon auto-attack Homing Torpedo, large aoe radius explosion as well) plus minor side effects on those kits (changes only aplied to skills 2-5). Some changes in that direction would make these two kits more interesting to use. Currently they look like you pushing buttons 2-5 to apply different conditions, such as stronger auto-attacks with longer cooldowns.

I hope developers see all user feedback and bring back the good old feeling to engineer (yeah like they are presented on wiki to new players), making it relevant and fun again not just for one elite spec, but for its essence.

Comments

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Truth is, both of the pistols need improvement. MH more than OH.

    • Casting time on Pistol 1 is a big problem. It's >60% longer than the stated casting time. Its AoE effect could also stand to be improved.
    • Pistol 2 (Poison dart volley) should pierce targets. This skill is abysmal for group combat.
    • Pistol 3 is probably the best of MH pistol. I might increase the confusion stacks, but otherwise it seems fair.
    • Pistol 4 is fine IMO.
    • Pistol 5 should also pulse slow on targets in the glue shot, and I'd increase the velocity of the projectile. It's still pretty slow and unwieldy.

    Pistol could also stand to have some better, more interesting traits. I honestly miss Coated Bullets.

    There's really 4 turrets that need examination:

    • Rocket Turret's normal attack is pretty flimsy, and its overcharge has such an insane arc, you might as well fuhgeddaboutit. The toolbelt is even worse.
    • Net turret is simply underwhelming. Same goes for the toolbelt.
    • Flame turret should add a longer burn, or more burn stacks. The toolbelt is alright.
    • Rifle turret does laughable damage (overcharged or not). It's almost exclusively taken for its toolbelt or an extra blast finisher.

    I'm not even going to get into kits because that would take me way too much time.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • @Vagrant.7206 said:
    There's really 4 turrets that need examination:

    • Rocket Turret's normal attack is pretty flimsy, and its overcharge has such an insane arc, you might as well fuhgeddaboutit. The toolbelt is even worse.
    • Net turret is simply underwhelming. Same goes for the toolbelt.
    • Flame turret should add a longer burn, or more burn stacks. The toolbelt is alright.
    • Rifle turret does laughable damage (overcharged or not). It's almost exclusively taken for its toolbelt or an extra blast finisher.

    I'm not even going to get into kits because that would take me way too much time.

    Healing turret is good and should continue as it is, and the medkit has already been reworked. I think the Supply Crate could be changed and look more like the old stationary mortar, much like a mini siege weapon (with reduced damage, of course) and any ally could use, would work better with the theory of turrets being used for area control. When dropped it would continue as it is, or replace enemy stun with launch. The mortar in the kit line could be something like the elementalist's Conjure Weapon skills, casting 2 or 3 random kits for allies. Both the manual turret and the kits would be temporary and would have tactical utility in many situations.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    I agree with all these changes. I would be happy to see even nerfs to the damage of 1 corresponding to the attack speed because at least then you're more likely to get a hit off. It feels slower than rev hammer. 2 as well, it being body blocked by stuff severely reduces your cleave potential. Seeing as we already have some pretty good (shameless self plug) threads about kits and turrets, assuming all we'll ever see are numbers changes and not an elite gadget or whatever, I don't have much else to say. I just wish taking gadgeteer felt like it had as much impact as taking HGH does for Elixir X, you know?

    Also, recently I've been playing a lot of core content, and my turret/gadget build actually feels pretty fresh again since I can kill stuff. Just goes to show how much numbers can affect someone's experience.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    I can definitely talk about the Net Turret. I've used it a long time ago when Cleaning Formula 409 + HGH elixir based condition builds were all the rage, and instead went for Slick Shoes/Tool Kit/Net Turret. Back then, an immobilize being thrown periodically was a rather big deal, so two of them, by counting the Supply Crate made most of fights a breeze. Now that kind of stuff doesn't mean much anymore by itself, even more so when everyone farts AOEs and accidently kill the turrets.

    I'd ideally like turrets like the Net one to remain how it is and have this whole power creep toned down to have small things like this turret matter again. But that's wishful thinking. Oh, and I've never really understood why the Rocket Turret was changed from the release design.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Matoro.9708 said:
    I agree with all these changes. I would be happy to see even nerfs to the damage of 1 corresponding to the attack speed because at least then you're more likely to get a hit off. It feels slower than rev hammer. 2 as well, it being body blocked by stuff severely reduces your cleave potential. Seeing as we already have some pretty good (shameless self plug) threads about kits and turrets, assuming all we'll ever see are numbers changes and not an elite gadget or whatever, I don't have much else to say. I just wish taking gadgeteer felt like it had as much impact as taking HGH does for Elixir X, you know?

    Also, recently I've been playing a lot of core content, and my turret/gadget build actually feels pretty fresh again since I can kill stuff. Just goes to show how much numbers can affect someone's experience.

    Pistol 1 has one of the lowest power coefficients of any autoattacks in the game (0.4). Only one that's lower is necro scepter, which has way more utility in its autoattack. No need to nerf it further just to meet its stated cast time.


    As far as kits go:

    • Med kit is fine after rework. No complaints.
    • Tool kit's #2 skill needs to be change to have more utility. I would suggest increasing the radius, duration, and duration of bleeds/cripples of the attack. Rest of the skills are fine.
    • Bomb kit needs to have short fuse as a baseline. The delay is too long to be useful in competitive formats.
    • Grenade kit should have the flight speed increase as baseline. I would also suggest adding some kind of resistance to projectile hate/retaliation, because these REALLY hurt grenade kit.
    • E-Gun is mostly fine. I would like to see its #1 and #2 improved though.
    • Flamethrower #1 should have burning interspersed throughout the attack, not at the end. This would make it way more dangerous (and useful) in competitive formats. I also think the #4 skill should destroy projectiles, and the #5 skill should have ammo (2 count seems right).
    • Mortar kit should have have lower flight times. I think it's otherwise in a decent spot.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    Pistol 1 has one of the lowest power coefficients of any autoattacks in the game (0.4). Only one that's lower is necro scepter, which has way more utility in its autoattack. No need to nerf it further just to meet its stated cast time.

    Haha I know man I'm just bargaining/begging/pleading ;-;

    As for the OP.
    In general, a lot of core stuff just comes out slower, clunkier, more telegraphed, and less impactful (read: loaded) than modern skills they've made. Whether or not this is fixed, I consistently find myself wishing for something else: I wish I could slot any kit I wanted in my elite slot, lol. I know Anet will never let utilities mix with elites, but Engineer has a funny problem with a lot of utilities being more useful as an elite than the available elites, depending on the build. Food for thought, maybe something will happen some day. On my current build, flamethrower there would be much nicer than mortar. Bomb kit is more fun than supply crate, and so on. Bleh.

    ArenaNet, please change Turrets.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Tulki.1458Tulki.1458 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    In my mind, engineer needs three major changes.
    1) Another power off-hand option, maybe a mace. It's silly that Holosmith only has a main-hand power weapon, when you look at something like Spellbreaker which launched with both main and off-hand dagger skills. If you want to use the spec's weapon (which is power-based) you have to settle for a condi off-hand or a defensive off-hand even though the spec is obviously fully offensive.

    2) Elixirs need to be reworked as less of a selfish option, and more of a supportive option so that an engineer can provide better boons for allies. Holosmith can already provide selfish might generation with the forge, making HGH kinda... not great, and it doesn't allow you to provide competitive might to allies through throwing elixirs anyway.

    3) Complete turret rework. Just tear them out completely and replace them with a different type of skill. The last time they were seriously changed was prior to HoT, and it was to massively nerf them into unusability. They don't fit in the game any more.

    Maybe replace turrets with "mecha-signets"? While off cooldown, the engineer can passively fire off turret shots under specific conditions. Activating a mecha signet places a supportive beacon that periodically loads nearby allies with a turret charge.

    For example:
    [Mecha Signet] Rifle Signet.
    Passive: Load a rifle charge every 3s. On critical hit, unleash a piercing round and consume the charge.
    Active: Deploy a Rifle Beacon that loads a Rifle Charge into nearby allies immediately, and once again every 6s.
    Max Charges: 2
    Max Allied Charges: 1
    Duration: 12s
    Cooldown: 24s
    Max allied targets: 5

    [Mecha Signet] Medical Signet.
    Passive: Load a med charge every 5s. When you perform a combo finisher, heal yourself and consume the charge.
    Active: Deploy a Medical Beacon that loads a med charge into nearby allies immediately, and once again every 10s.
    Max Charges: 2
    Max Allied Charges: 1
    Duration: 20s
    Cooldown: 40s

    [Mecha Signet] Thumper Signet.
    Passive: Load a thumper charge every 10s. When you target an enemy with a blowout, knockback, pull or stun, release an aftershock that damages and dazes nearby enemies (PvP split: cripples instead of inflicting knockback)
    Active: Deploy a Thumper Beacon that loads a thumper charge into nearby allies immediately, and once again every 20s.
    Max Charges: 2
    Max Allied Charges: 1
    Duration: 40s
    Cooldown: 80s

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tulki.1458 said:
    3) Complete turret rework. Just tear them out completely and replace them with a different type of skill. The last time they were seriously changed was prior to HoT, and it was to massively nerf them into unusability. They don't fit in the game any more.

    I like turrets, they just aren't implemented right. Signets are the epitome of boring, passive abilities, and aren't a good theme either for engi, slapping mecha on there doesn't change that. If they had to be replaced, I'd swap them with things like the old ground target shredder gyro. The original gyros were pretty much moving turrets. Makes sense, now, in retrospect, why they no longer exist. :c

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Turrets don't make sense because they don't scale with stats (except Flame Turret), they don't gain boons but do gain conditions, they do not body-block projectiles, and they have larger than normal hitboxes. And ArenaNet will not make them useful because people can use them to afk farm.

  • @Tulki.1458 said:
    Turrets don't make sense because they don't scale with stats (except Flame Turret), they don't gain boons but do gain conditions, they do not body-block projectiles, and they have larger than normal hitboxes. And ArenaNet will not make them useful because people can use them to afk farm.

    Think of "engineering" and then machines or structures or devices come to mind, for me the turrets line is the coolest thing about the engineer (as a machinist). No one is stupid, it's not the player's fault to see realistic opportunities to get gold and farm with their turrets because they are using their utilities as they are supposed to work, in spawns supposedly working properly... if it's someone else's fault it's the Anet for not having developed mechanisms that would prevent supposed afk farm practices, and as far as I am concerned there is no clause in the contract term that prohibits the player from leaving his game open and moving away either for 15 secs or 5 min (average turret life time, a long time to be away according to anet).
    If you don't want to see this practice build another mechanism because it seems ridiculous to render to useless a whole profession line of skills so relevant for the sake of your earnings (+gold to gem, -$$,$$ to gem) or the ingame economy.

  • I never practiced afk farm and today i have all the ingame items i really would like to have, just playing for almost 3 years and farming traditionally. When i discovered the old Lake Doric engi farm on LFG (a couple days before the big nerf) i actually found it funny (a lil because the turrets were already a kitten lol) and not a crime that players are legit making more or less gold in a different way than me.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    Turrets with ammo system, and the overcharge buffs your auto attacks and destroys your turrets
    Done engi is now good

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tulki.1458 said:
    Turrets don't make sense because they don't scale with stats (except Flame Turret), they don't gain boons but do gain conditions, they do not body-block projectiles, and they have larger than normal hitboxes. And ArenaNet will not make them useful because people can use them to afk farm.

    Admittedly I made an entire post in excruciating detail how to address all of these issues and rework them. Nothing in it is impossible to implement. The ball is in Anet's court.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Matoro.9708 said:
    I agree with all these changes. I would be happy to see even nerfs to the damage of 1 corresponding to the attack speed because at least then you're more likely to get a hit off. It feels slower than rev hammer. 2 as well, it being body blocked by stuff severely reduces your cleave potential. Seeing as we already have some pretty good (shameless self plug) threads about kits and turrets, assuming all we'll ever see are numbers changes and not an elite gadget or whatever, I don't have much else to say. I just wish taking gadgeteer felt like it had as much impact as taking HGH does for Elixir X, you know?

    Also, recently I've been playing a lot of core content, and my turret/gadget build actually feels pretty fresh again since I can kill stuff. Just goes to show how much numbers can affect someone's experience.

    Pistol 1 has one of the lowest power coefficients of any autoattacks in the game (0.4). Only one that's lower is necro scepter, which has way more utility in its autoattack. No need to nerf it further just to meet its stated cast time.


    As far as kits go:

    • Med kit is fine after rework. No complaints.
    • Tool kit's #2 skill needs to be change to have more utility. I would suggest increasing the radius, duration, and duration of bleeds/cripples of the attack. Rest of the skills are fine.

    You forgot about the auto attack. The tool kit is the closest thing core engineer gets to a blunt melee weapon and it's incredibly lackluster. I would recommend reducing the cast time to be the same as the scrapper's hammer and replace the cripple with confusion. Box of Nails already applies cripple in a radius, so why would you have the auto attack also apply cripple?

    • Bomb kit needs to have short fuse as a baseline. The delay is too long to be useful in competitive formats.

    Not just in competitive formats, but in PvE as well. It takes 1 second for bombs to go off, but also an additional half a second to plant them so it takes longer for you to deal damage with them. Making Short Fuse baseline is a step in the right direction, keep the fury boon and replace the delay with an increased explosion radius and 20% cooldown reduction on bomb skills, similar to the Forceful Explosives trait.

    • Grenade kit should have the flight speed increase as baseline. I would also suggest adding some kind of resistance to projectile hate/retaliation, because these REALLY hurt grenade kit.

    I think retaliation should be reworked as a whole. I understand it when it comes to melee attacks, but ranged attacks? It doesn't make sense how ranged attacks, especially ground targeted skills like grenades manage to damage you from far away. Yes, I agree the throw velocity and explosion radius should be baseline, so replace those with 20% cooldown reduction on grenade skills and increase the throw range from 900 back to 1,200 similar to the old Grenadier.

    • E-Gun is mostly fine. I would like to see its #1 and #2 improved though.

    Me too. Tranquilizer Dart should have the same cast time as the hopefully future Fragmentation Shot cast time buff. Glob Shot should apply swiftness to allies if you hit your target, not just if you use it within 400 range and apply it to 3 allies which is not mentioned in the tooltip at all.

    • Flamethrower #1 should have burning interspersed throughout the attack, not at the end. This would make it way more dangerous (and useful) in competitive formats. I also think the #4 skill should destroy projectiles, and the #5 skill should have ammo (2 count seems right).

    Napalm should be changed into a radius instead of a rectangular wall of fire. As for Smoke Vent, I think it would be nice to bring back Backdraft so core engineer can have a little bit more CC than just Air Blast and Big Ol' Bomb. As for the auto attack, it would be great if it applied burning per tick instead of at the end of the auto attack. But one thing you forgot is retaliation. Similar to the the grenade kit, retaliation can hurt the kit as well since it attacks multiple times.

    Karras

  • First, turret hit boxes should be scaled down.

    Secondly, each turret should apply a static stat bonus, like warrior banners. (+25 to all stats, including expertise and concentration.) then allow them to be picked back up to reduce the cool down.

    Third... When you deploy a turret, your toolbelt skill should flip to an ammo version of the turrets overcharge. (which should be upgraded, so you don't miss your non-deployed skill while you have the turret out.) traits in the tools trait line effect the toolbelt overcharge skills. Destroying a turret that is 'out of ammo' produces a weak explosion, but applies might and a Boon that makes sense for the type of turret. (not the same Boon applied by the turret trait) Destroying a turret with ammo in it, produces a large explosion, doing more damage, more stacks of burn and bleed, dependant on how much ammo is remaining, and not producing might, or the additional Boon.

    Fourth, They should take 90% reduced damage and condition damage from npc's, and 50% reduced damage and condition damage from players.

    Fifth, They should body block projectiles.

    Sixth, The turrets trait, renamed 'turret network.' should reduce recharge of turret utility, but not toolbelt overcharge. (take tools if you want that) turrets should pulse a Boon on firing. As they do now. Turret explosions always count as being fired at maximum ammunition. Increase the ammo count of turrets by 2.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    First, turret hit boxes should be scaled down.

    Secondly, each turret should apply a static stat bonus, like warrior banners. (+25 to all stats, including expertise and concentration.) then allow them to be picked back up to reduce the cool down.

    Third... When you deploy a turret, your toolbelt skill should flip to an ammo version of the turrets overcharge. (which should be upgraded, so you don't miss your non-deployed skill while you have the turret out.) traits in the tools trait line effect the toolbelt overcharge skills. Destroying a turret that is 'out of ammo' produces a weak explosion, but applies might and a Boon that makes sense for the type of turret. (not the same Boon applied by the turret trait) Destroying a turret with ammo in it, produces a large explosion, doing more damage, more stacks of burn and bleed, dependant on how much ammo is remaining, and not producing might, or the additional Boon.

    Fourth, They should take 90% reduced damage and condition damage from npc's, and 50% reduced damage and condition damage from players.

    Fifth, They should body block projectiles.

    Sixth, The turrets trait, renamed 'turret network.' should reduce recharge of turret utility, but not toolbelt overcharge. (take tools if you want that) turrets should pulse a Boon on firing. As they do now. Turret explosions always count as being fired at maximum ammunition. Increase the ammo count of turrets by 2.

    Sounds cool, I would be happy if they did something like this.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Kits should be a profession mechanic on the f-bar. Not taking up a utility slot.

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