GW2’s business model is at odds with its in-game rewards — Guild Wars 2 Forums

GW2’s business model is at odds with its in-game rewards

What kind of in-game rewards do MMORPGs usually offer? Talking about literal rewards (as opposed to abstract things such as “having fun”, which is theory is always there anyway), we could divide them in three main categories:

  • Power: making the character more powerful (which usually translates to higher numbers). In GW2, power has a soft cap at exotic gear, and a hard cap at ascended gear; there isn’t much more above that. The agony resist mechanic could be considered a kind of power increase, but it’s very niche. Power isn’t really much of a reward in GW2.
    (Incidentally, games in which power is a major reward usually are very different from Guild Wars 2. When a character is as powerful as possible, why would he continue playing? What those games do is to continuously add more power levels – increased level cap and/or increased gear cap – which often itranslates to the gear treadmill so often seen in other MMORPGs).

  • Convenience: some of the most time-consuming rewards in GW2 fall in this category, such as the convenience of changing our stats with legendary gear, or being able to use the Skyscale to more easily move around. The thing is, games that really want to have convenience as their main reward usually create artificial inconveniences, which isn’t usually the case with GW2. Thus, while we have the eventual convenience reward, they aren’t really the major rewards in the game.

  • Aesthetics: more and better skins. This is the major in-game reward in GW2 – be it new armor skins, weapon skins, infusions, dyes, etc, aesthetic rewards are arguably the most sought and the most important rewards in the game.

In other hand, while Guild Wars 2 has a buy-to-play component, the game relies heavily in its in-game store. Thinking about real money shops in MMORPGs, what do they usually offer? Again, we can divide those in three main categories:

  • Power: basically, pay-to-win. Reviled in the West, it’s somewhat rare for an online game to offer power in its store (ignoring mobile games, of course). GW2 doesn’t really have anything like this in its store.
  • Convenience: such as the shared inventory slots, more bag slots, and so on. However, games in which convenience is the main product being sold usually rely heavily on artificial inconveniences in order to sell convenience. One example of this is The Old Republic, in which even a second skill bar is locked behind a pay wall. While GW2’s store has many convenience items, many aren’t that sought (such as the repair canisters, the revive orbs, etc), and the game has not been filled with artificial inconveniences.
  • Aesthetics: more and better skins. Glider skins, mount skins, outfits (all of which are almost exclusive to the in-game store), weapon skins, armor skins, dyes, etc – this is arguably the most important category in the GW2’s main store.

Do you see the contradiction here? GW2’s main endgame reward is aesthetics. GW2’s main store product is aesthetics. Which means, each new skin introduced as a reward in the game is one less opportunity for ArenaNet to make a profit through their store. Each new skin introduced in the store is one less reward for players to earn in game.
The result is a boiling frustration, as players see that their in-game rewards are being hampered by the in-game store. Thus the many requests for mount and glider skins to be made available in game, for more outfits available as rewards, and so on.
In the end, it was a poorly-thought decision by ArenaNet to focus both their in-game rewards and their store on the same aspect of the game.

How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

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Comments

  • I agree that there is a conflict but I wouldn't say it's poorly thought. Not if it already has made them a kittenload of money (which it has).

    Also, while Anet's gambleboxes probably tip the scale towards aesthetics, I'd wager convenience is a pretty big seller in the gemstore too. Yes this game doesn't have the various annoyances EA has put in SWTOR, but its convenience items do make a pretty big difference. Especially the ones tied to gold generation in-game (which in turn is tied back to the reward system and the gem store).

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The definition of "reward" is far too narrow, and hand waving "having fun" is disingenuous at best. Nothing in any good video game is just about "getting the thing", not even in an MMO.

    All video game rewards occupy four categories: Entertaining stories/narrative (including emergent gameplay), Feelings of accomplishment, Sense of discovery/wonder, and Expressions of creativity. All of these, though esoteric, are quantifiable, definite, and most importantly, marketable. Everything listed in the OP except cosmetics removes one of those rewards, and sold cosmetics only advance Creative Expression, deciding how to creatively use the thing. In-game rewards, even "just more cosmetic items", advance all four: You had to do something to get the thing, you had to overcome an obstacle to get the thing, you had to find out where and how to get the thing, and you get to figure out how to use the thing. Thus, there is no inherent conflict.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:
    Which means, each new skin introduced as a reward in the game is one less opportunity for ArenaNet to make a profit through their store. Each new skin introduced in the store is one less reward for players to earn in game.

    I think they split their skin rewards for this reason, although it doesn't always work very well.
    Armor skins can only be obtained in game, outfits only on the gem store (With some rare exceptions)
    Weapon skins can be acquired on both, but in-game weapon skins tend to fit with the content more, black lion weapon skins are too flashy and not always lore-friendly
    Gliders and mount skins are acquired from the gem store, mount skins are their top money earners
    As for convenience, Legendary weapons are acquired from the game (gems to gold for Gen1 excluded) while things like shared slots are acquired from the store.

    Having different rewards in content and the gem store is the way to go, so both have a reason to exist and don't compete with each other. Weapon skins is the only part where there is a real conflict of interest.

    The result is a boiling frustration, as players see that their in-game rewards are being hampered by the in-game store.

    What Arenanet will tell you is that players can get all gem store rewards by playing the game (converting gold to gems). I believe the gold to gems exchange is the hidden reason for all this player frustration. On one hand, mindless/boring endless grinds are more rewarding (in terms of gold) than playing the rest of the game, while all good/rare skins acquired from playing the game are account bound, with a few super rare infusion exceptions. I think player frustration would be lower, if the gem store rewards were accessible in a different way through content, other than mindless farming.

    Back when the game was fresh, Arenanet was awarding 500 gems to the team that won a monthly PVP tournament. You needed to win daily tournaments to acquire qualification points, and once you got enough you could queue for the monthly, and the best players for that month got gems as a reward each. That was an excellent way to award some gem store skins, without awarding gem store skins. Of course at that time, PVP didn't have gold rewards, so it made sense to use gems, but it's the concept that counts.

    In the end, it was a poorly-thought decision by ArenaNet to focus both their in-game rewards and their store on the same aspect of the game.

    Outside weapons skins, they did not. in-game and the gem store have different rewards.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

  • @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    If the game is a fashion simulator then you can expect nothing but boring grinds to eek out gold to buy skins. I wont grind i dont play games to grind gold, i play games to have fun. Imho gw2 is just a grind game to get what you want to buy off the store, that or spend rl money on to buy them. I have spent the money because as above i hate grinding for gold when i could be doing other stuff i enjoy. When you have games so focused on selling things, they tend to never add anything new ingame to do. Its all about grinding gold so you dont have to pay real money. I cant see myself in the future playing this game like i did wow, for years and years. There isnt enough to hold me because like above i wont spend my ingame time grinding gold.

    Few people do anything i like to do, dungeons raids and quest and story lines which are pretty much non existent in gw2. I guess im a traditionalist when it comes to mmorpgs. I guess i prefer games like wow, lots to do and a ton of story and lore, a lot of zone quest lines that culminate in a finale, ingame rewards that merit what content you do, tons of mounts armor and weapons to collect, many dungeons and raids, and battlegrounds to play in. Reputation is the real grind in that game, and they went overload on it so i left. I dont like grinding that much and at last count there are 103 reps to grind to exalted

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2019

    @Erasculio.2914 said:
    snip

    I agree with most of what you said. You only left out 1 thing: the gem-gold exchange.

    While I am not a fan of cosmetics or desirable items in the gem store, giving players the ability to acquire these items with ingame gold (and thus having someone else pay the gems with real money before adding them into the exchange) is one way of allowing players to acquire these items "ingame". It might not be via a specific dungeon or encounter or challenge, but rather via playing the game or things in the game one enjoys.

    Personally, I would love a subscription fee for GW2 and less gem store items and focus (don't lynch me, this is my personal preferance). I do realize though that many players prefer the no subscription based model for which the gem exchange was implemented.

    As far as powercreep, which came up in this thread. I think Arenanet found a good middle ground here: while technically ascended gear is the hard cap, the new 4-stat combinations were power creep versus the 3-stat ones. Similar with elite specializations and to some extent masteries. It allows for non gear based character developement for players who do not care about chasing the gear carrot on a stick (a nice variation to most other MMORPGS and a USP for GW2).

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:
    2012: The community vocalizes overwhelming support for a business model that is buy to play with optional cosmetics in the cash shop and a horizontal progression that doesn't include regular new tiers of gear.
    2019: The community decides that looking cool is the only thing that matters and cosmetics in the cash shop are not acceptable business practice.

    I agree that there's a conflict happening.
    I'm just not sure it's Anet's design so much as a community that tries to paint "Fashion Wars" as the end game in order to justify it's entitlement over shinies.

    I would welcome you look at what was monetized back in 2012 and what is monetized now in 2019. Many of the items were the same quality of appearance with what could be earned in game. Currently outfits and one off pieces have better particle effects than anything earned ingame including legendary armor. Mount skins are solely locked behind the gem store. I'd welcome you to compare the skins of w7 to any black lion weapon set, even raid skins are really low quality now. Compare the fractal celestial infusion with the new outfit locked because the rng box.
    Now to not be disingenuous i will admit fused weapons were better looking than most skins at the time, but that was the exception, not the rule, just looked at the jade and sclerite weapons, which were also obtainable ingame.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...

    You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

    hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • As has been mentioned, the gold to gem exchange greatly changes the balance. Having the gem store accessible through game play kind of negates the argument.

  • One thing for sure: the very moment they introduce a monthly fee system to play the game is the moment i would stop playing altogether.

    If the only thing that motivates you ingame are getting cosmetics/play this game as a fashion wars, thats your perogative. That doesnt invalidates Anet selling cosmetics for gems.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

    But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

    Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

    But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

    Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

    Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what's wrong with aesthetics? it's no different to other games like Counter Strike gun skins, unlike EA's P2W kitten

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

    But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

    Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

    Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

    It was established above, that some categories (namely outfits, mount skins and gliders) are available (mostly) through one channel alone (gemstore), while others (armor skins, legendary, infusions) are available in-game only. It's hard to compare those in quantity, since the amount of work that goes into a set of armor isn't exactly the same as the one that goes into a glider or even mount skin. Did you make a list to compare them, or is this more a perception judgement?

    As for weapon skins, those are the odd ones, since they are available through different channels. Do you count blacklion skins (that can be farmed via key farming/map exploration or simply bought for gold from the trading post) as gemstore or ingame rewards? How many pure gemstore (non-ticket) skins were released over the course of season 4? If I'm not mistaken we did get four weapon sets (astral, stellar, dragonsblood, and heroic dragonsblood), as well as some standalone weapons (Joko's staff, legendary precursors) in game during that time.

    What about wardrobe unlocks (through key farming or birthday gifts)? Does my ghastly grinning shield skin that I got through a wardrobe unlock from a random map completion key count as in-game or gemstore reward?

    Sorry about being picky here, but your preception differs quite a bit from mine, and I'd really like to know if it's based on research (and what parameters you used) or "just" personal perception.

  • Shep.4026Shep.4026 Member ✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    • Convenience: such as the shared inventory slots, more bag slots, and so on. However, games in which convenience is the main product being sold usually rely heavily on artificial inconveniences in order to sell convenience. One example of this is The Old Republic, in which even a second skill bar is locked behind a pay wall. While GW2’s store has many convenience items, many aren’t that sought (such as the repair canisters, the revive orbs, etc), and the game has not been filled with artificial inconveniences.

    Sorry for focusing on this, but it is a bad comparison. SWTOR has a completely different model and that "pay wall" only exists if you're not a subscriber. Also, anything QOL in SWTOR can and should be unlocked account wide. There are plenty of inconveniences in this game. There is however nothing "convenient" about having to buy additional inventory slots for every single character or a makeover-kit with every character slot. Man, do I miss the appearance designer in SWTOR...

  • @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

    But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

    Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

    Liking the design of a skin or not is, of course, subjective. But there are still objective qualities to it like texture work, mesh detail, animations.

    You may not like the look of the gem store stuff but the fact remains that they are more elaborate than most of in-game rewards. Especially since a big chunk of in-game stuff comes from core.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Think of GW2 as a p2w mobile game, where winning means being the coolest-looking(subjective, of course) you can ever make your character to be.
    Then you'll accept and understand why the business model is like that.

    Apathy is death.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Tl;dr a model that relies more on paid dlc and expansions or expansions and a shb fee or a combination of all 3 is superior.

    Yes.

    But even the games with a combo of those have cash stores. And the best and/or "shiniest" items are reserved for said stores there too.

    As usual in today's gaming industry, why just make money when you can make "all" the money.

    Yeah, you cant avoid the cash shop but at least you can havw a fairer ratio of ingame rewards to paid ones.

    But "fair" is a totally subjective measurement. Personally I rarely see anything in the gemstore that I'd like to have. Most of it is way too over-the-top for my taste. On the other hand I really liked a lot of the weapon and armor skins they have given in game, and have actively adjusted my gameplay to get some of them. I have bought a couple of gliders from the gemstore (I think three at the latest count), as well as a few outfits as I enjoy the convenience of occasionally changing the look without messing with transmutations and dyes (so I can always fall back to the previous armor skins without hassle), but haven't felt the need to get any non-standard mount skins yet.

    Looking from my personal point of view, the ratio between ingame and gemstore rewards is near perfect. I don't expect everybody else to share my view, as taste differs from person to person, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few people around with similar tastes like mine, either.

    Its not about preference its about how much stuff we get in the gemstore vs in game. Its overwhelmingly tipped towards cash shop, esp in mount apearances, gliders, weapons etc.

    This is overwhelmingly wrong for weapons.
    And just wrong for armour.

  • Mmm, I have spent approx 5 times as much cash on gw2 than on all my other mmos combined.
    The reasons are:
    1) no power creep - power creep also tends to go hand-in-hand with p2w, not always but very often
    2) minimal artifical inconveniences
    3) no subscription
    4) no gouging
    (#4 is the most Impt and kinda like the summary of 1-3)

    I find gw2's balance (gold-to-gems, farming needs, default-vs-cash conveniences) just nice.

    I don't know about the average gem-purchaser's player profile, but I would really appreciate if Anet keeps away from that direction.

    {I am in the alts-heavy grp of casual players
    I spend little on cash-heavy games, and I spend absolutely nothing on p2w games.}

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

    No just No

    Oh yes please. We need it.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

    No just No

    Oh yes please. We need it.

    Please explain why.

    Especially after the backlash for ascended tier armour.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt... its happent to ppl be scared of WoW grind at every year adding a new power cap... but 1 once every 6 years dont hurt nothing.

    No just No

    Oh yes please. We need it.

    At this critical point of this game's life, a move like that will almost certainly kill it.

    There is a general feel of displeasure among GW2 players at this point for various reasons. Now, imagine asking this already sceptical and diminished playerbase to throw their hard earned ascended and legendaries in the trash because the level cap was raised or a new tier was introduced.

    Other MMOs have died for less. So unless one is looking to eat popcorn while "watching the world burn", I can't see how we "need it".

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProtoGunner.4953 said:
    There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

    Play the game. Get gold. Convert gold -> gems. Buy mount and/or glider skin from store.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Now to not be disingenuous i will admit fused weapons were better looking than most skins at the time, but that was the exception, not the rule, just looked at the jade and sclerite weapons, which were also obtainable ingame.

    You are painting an incomplete picture in order to support your case. When I look at the last few weapon sets added as ingame earnables, the Funerary, the Forged, the Heroic Dragonsblood, the Stellar set... all of these weapon sets are absolutely the same level of quality as any BL set. When I look at the last two armor sets added to the game, they are absolutely on par with any of the outfits released over the past two years.... and they are armor sets, not one piece outfits that are impossible to customize. You know... exactly what the community asked for.
    Despite having zero interest in the Starborn outfit (I find it pretty silly and gaudy) I had a BL Key drop while playing in Dragonfall today and got it.
    That makes it ingame earnable. I earned it in game.

    Mount skins are solely locked behind the gem store.

    Gold to Gems means no cosmetic item is "solely locked behind the gem store".

    Gold to gem is an tired argument, and made by those who didn't even remember first day in their economic 101 class. Remember there is no such thing as a free lunch, when you do gems to gold, your letting a whale pay for that mount skins instead of you. Gem do no matterize out of nowhere, someone has to buy them with real money. Have you not notice how high the conversion is now, less people are coverting gems to gold right now for whatever reason. Remember how low gem prices were when anet was selling ultimate editions of expacs where 4k gem were half off.
    Also stating black lion keys are not gemstore lootboxes because you can get few ingame from keyfarming, doing one time only reward tracks, map completion or just a random drop is also disengenious. The majority of those being rewarded with that skin will come from keys they spend real money on. You are citing and very unlikely situation, blk drop very rarely, you got uncommon drop which has 10% chance at happening, and getting the oufit out of 18 items in that pool. This is completely different than doing cm 100 45 days to get enough currency to buy the infusion.
    And last, compare how many weapon sets came out in core tyria compare to the amount of weapon skins sold in the gemstore, now look at pof, 9.3 weapon sets, where 4 are just upgrades of another 4 compared with the amount of blk skins.

  • @Shep.4026 said:
    There is however nothing "convenient" about having to buy additional inventory slots for every single character or a makeover-kit with every character slot. Man, do I miss the appearance designer in SWTOR...

    I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    There is no pay2win in guild wars. People toss it left and right without understanding it correctly. Its so easy to reach the peak of player power.

  • Shep.4026Shep.4026 Member ✭✭✭

    @PyrateSilly.4710 said:>
    I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

    Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @ProtoGunner.4953 said:
    There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

    Play the game. Get gold. Convert gold -> gems. Buy mount and/or glider skin from store.

    IMO it is vastly different and less appreciated if you get the items with gold-gem conversion. The point is that the game would have bigger incentive and appeal if you get such skins with in game quests/collection/lore.

  • @Shep.4026 said:

    @PyrateSilly.4710 said:>
    I have multiple make-over kit's and any other kit in my bank ... I wish I could sell them when I get them as I NEVER use them so this "having to buy them" is just nuts. It is a want not a need. The same with anything in the Gem Store. Want not need. I wanted full shared inventory slots so I bought them ... when they went on sale. I wanted an extra char slot so I bought it ... on sale. I wanted full bag slots so I bought them. Nothing in the game said I had to have them. Pure want not need.

    Yeah, so, what's your point? If I WANT all character-customization options, I HAVE to buy a makeover-kit. With no word did I say i NEED to buy them. I have to have to those options, the hair-styles and colours, the eyes and eye colors, the scars. I have to have them, because I want them. What I don't want is a lecture from you. Are you seriously going to pretend as if you structure your whole gaming experience around needs? Don't make me laugh... As if you've never looked at something that you definitely didn't "need" and thought "I have to have that!"

    As a 52 year old female, no I have not. I 'have to' have food to survive. I 'have to' have water to also survive. That's pretty much it. Shelter? It depends on the environment on if that is a necessity or not to survive. Other people? Not really as I am very much a solo traveler. If needed pretty much all I own can fit just in my car if I want to move and travel anywhere with everything. So no. I play because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'. I get things from the gem store because I 'want to' not because I 'need to'.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ProtoGunner.4953 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @ProtoGunner.4953 said:
    There should be mount and glider skins available in game. There are so many and not a single one can you get in game (aside from the three legendary backpacks/gliders).

    Play the game. Get gold. Convert gold -> gems. Buy mount and/or glider skin from store.

    IMO it is vastly different and less appreciated if you get the items with gold-gem conversion. The point is that the game would have bigger incentive and appeal if you get such skins with in game quests/collection/lore.

    I agree, but then Anet would miss out on those who actually purchase gems with cash to get these items because either they can't wait or they have no desire to farm for the items. We can't know the statistics, but I'd imagine that this is a sizeable portion of the player-base, else Anet wouldn't continue with this model.

    If they made items both available in game and in the store, it's likely that this statistic might change enough to make it detrimental to their bottom line.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...

    You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

    hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?

    What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

    Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really haven't seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    its 6 years+, its time to add new power cap level, once a time every 6 years dont hurt...

    You probably haven't seen how bad the ascended gear backlash was and how it hurt the game. I have.

    hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?

    What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

    Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really haven't seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

    Are you not having fun doing content in mmos and getting gear for it? Isnt ff14 like that?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    hurt? i have 7+ ascended set, i cant imagine how boring game was before because i arrived 4 years ago.. but what was the fun in playing with same exo gear forever?

    What's the fun in having to regear over and over again? I don't find preparing to have fun to be fun at all.

    Also, thank you for confirming what i suspected - you really haven't seen how bad the ascended backlash was.

    but a new tier once every 4~6 years inst "regear over and over" again. its plenty time to anyone accumulate 400g.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

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