For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras! - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!

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  • lightstalker.1498lightstalker.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    Goalposts move.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @op and all mesmers whiners :
    Basically what happen in EU :
    1) the mantra mesmer (if there is one because it's pretty rare.) will one shot someone.
    2) he will then be focused all the game by ennemy team (like an FA ele should be) and be a dead weight to his team.
    I dunno if NA ladder with 60% of mesmers didn't have good rev/thief/holo but I can ensure you that if this kind of class is in EU and see a mantra mesmer it's a 4v5 game, that's why we don't see mantra mesmers pass gold in EU.

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Coremesmer can pretty easy oneshot ppl with taking Chaosline in addition to Domination/Duelling. And after Chrono nerfs you find them a lot even in EU. Also the problem is, that Coremesmers are forced to use Massinvis (for the lack of other good elites) during Mirages mostly run Jaunt. And these core builds can stack stealth for a very long time , too long time, and they also can go back in stealth more often. In addition Chaos adds passive boonsustain very strong vs power builds.

    There are reasons why most oneshot heroes played old chrono pre nerf with double Mantra carried by Lost Time giving double instant cast dmg now switch to Core and not to Mirage. Powercoremes and in particular Chaosline core is way easier to play and has more burst than Powermirage what is the strongest when played as utility based spec with clones on dodge and interrupt trait instead the dmg traits. Powermirage is a lot more reactive when played with these traits, also with Zeromis kind of spammy double signet build. Even Zeromis build needs to outplay ppl way more than a stealthspam oneshot or a double intant-dmg Mantra oneshot Chrono pre nerf. Both builds carry lower skilled player still want to play power and not condi for whatever reasons.
    The problem mostly isn't the amount of burst dmg itself, it is the combination of high dmg combined with braindead mechanics like high instant dmg on max range (double Mantra+Lost Time) or the abuse of stealth (Core chaosline). For most Powermesmer i met ingame it is simple as that: They play these carried by broken mechanics oneshot builds because they cannot outplay ppl on a glassy spec and for that run a nonreactive build to compensate that missing skill. Ofc not impressive and these meme oneshot builds are clearly not the only "viable", they are just easier than not-oneshot-powerbuilds. I mean i am hypocrite to judge because when i play Mesmer i play condi but tbh these kind of oneshot builds are not that far away from the noobcarry lvl of a Condimirage who only needs to dodge on a safe spot and let clones do all the work. Both are barley reactive and have easy to apply dmg, only the punishment for mistakes is higher on power oneshot builds (not rly when using chaosline though). But without Chaosline/ Lost Time (old Chrono), Mantra of Pain and Massinvis i barely see a problem.

    I'm really sorry but as many other posts of this thread are just "they are op" or "it's fine l2P", yours who again impose your view of what is skilled or not like usual make me react :

    • Again when I read your posts I'm convinced that the highest skilled build for you is the "I take only one weapon, no trait and no utility because I'm skilled.". And again I answer that something no efficient isn't skilled.
    • Chaosline is basically a sustain line and a meta build with no sustain line is bad (should it be mirage/chaos/inspiration). The kid build who take all damage trait with 0 overall reflexion isn't skill as like I said in our last discussion, skill start by build crafting.
    • Core mes has more burst than mirage, that's the point we can agree it's was always the case.
    • Powermirage allow evade during mistakes, core build not, while core build allow more stealth duration while mirage not so apart the gameplay difference, I find very extreme to impose his vision of things in a black and white way.
    • CI was nerfed, chrono is dead, and you still want mesmers to play 1 build that you find skilled and that everyone should play. Thanks you aren't game designer.
    • There can't be stealth abusing in a Holo passive reveal meta. Again NA probably haven't holo since they have 60% mesmers players...
    • The build you defend as skilled (the one with domi/duel/mirage, lock play which is what I play at the moment) base much of his pressure on GS ambush, so apart the near to be ineffective lock and usual bursts timing, there is nothing that high, the key of this build is more based on the right timing to use IoL.

    And oneshot build are not even 'viable' because they are eaten alive by every other roaming and +1 class apart in NA in which it seems there isn't any good rev/thief to eat burst spec...

  • @lightstalker.1498 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Kamskill.9457 said:
    Is it a troll post ? ^^

    they'd struggle to bring me below half health 3v1ing me on any non-braindead spec.

    Just look at this. The build is only acceptable if he can 3 v 1 against them.

    That's hilarious. It's probably the one counter to his insanely meta build. Meta builds are an issue, but this is why Anet needs to collect their own data to find out what they are.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    Yeah my problem is that if anet dev read you and take your posts primary degree we will end with nothing than evade and maybe 1 weapon block.
    I don't see how you can reduce complain by coming during discussions saying : this is carry-gameplay, it should be hell gut. What I try to explain to you it's that all is not white and black with the carrying play opposed to the guy who is skilled enough to play with his feets.
    And stealth is active sustain (warrior signet, gard aegis proc aren't.).
    And stealth isn't more op than full health restore in few click or other class sustain.
    Now i'm all for PU to come back to 3 defensive boon while not upgrade stealth duration if you think it will resolves the problem.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    Never said stealth is passive sustain but it is unhealthy and easy to play WHEN (and only when) it can get abused as a PU Coremes or DE can abuse it.

    But if you prefer i can just keep silent and Anet read op and his follower only, and their biased and extrem opinions doesn't get half as effective corrupted by other biased and extrem opinions from mesmer mains as from someone trying to find the truth in the middle. But that will not be my problem.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Kamskill.9457 said:
    Is it a troll post ? ^^

    No. I'm legitimately sick of mantra players rolling up to me in stealth from across the map and insta gibbing me. It's kitten stupid that any random can roll their face over their keyboard and kill me when they'd struggle to bring me below half health 3v1ing me on any non-braindead spec.

    Anyone who thinks 100-0ing someone from stealth is balanced needs to get help.

    • Deadeye oneshot builds need to get deleted
    • Soulbeast oneshot builds need to get deleted
    • Core guardian oneshot builds need to get deleted
    • FA ele oneshot builds need to get deleted
    • Gunflame/killshot warrior onshot builds need to get deleted

    Rev is fine currently, so are necros and meme oneshot engis (cause meme oneshot engis can't actually oneshot you)

    The builds that can oneshot you from stealth are the worst and need to get deleted first. Not to mention that EVERY single mesmer mantra is ridiculously overloaded on stupidly short cooldowns.

    Warrior and core guards have no way to stealth on their own, just saying.

    I do hate mesmer tho, and malicious backstab is kitten too

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. Not sure if he's the person I'm thinking of but I remember a ranger player saying look how broken mirage is by using 3 clones, IH, mirrored axes and spamming dodges on a golem showing 30+ stacks of torment. Don't get me wrong the torment output on axe was/is insane and I think torment should never have been as prevalent as it is now but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    I once killed a mesmer and cj him, he then killed me and also cj. Conclusion, nerf mesmer.

    Honestly though the only thing I hated about mesmer was the daze = stun trait because that sometimes stunned mid dodge, which made difficult to react to the rest of the combo in such a low time frame.

    I am more worried about condi mirage because of both defensive weapon sets (mostly wvw though).

    Thing is, if they are going to force mantra to respect los then they should also do the same to all skills that react instantly like that (port through walls) because I can target someone, face 180° away from them and behind a wall and still steal into them.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Never said stealth is passive sustain but it is unhealthy and easy to play WHEN (and only when) it can get abused as a PU Coremes or DE can abuse it.

    But if you prefer i can just keep silent and Anet read op and his follower only, and their biased and extrem opinions doesn't get half as effective corrupted by other biased and extrem opinions from mesmer mains as from someone trying to find the truth in the middle. But that will not be my problem.

    Hmm who is the extremist between you and me ? :#
    Found me pretty on the middle side. :3

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    When you try to destroy gameplay with the argument of skill, yes you will always find me on the way.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    The things is that putting NA and EU class representation apart, when you choose to spec into stealth one burst build, it has many drawback :

    • No pressure during stealth.
    • No pressure during Bursts intervals.

    Which is hudge when you are in teamfight where players can assists each other or when you can't 100/1 single player because they aren't full zerk. Ans mesmer is far to have the mobility of thief during stealth. Pass Blink there is nothing to go melee from 1200 range to burst.

    Not even couting the meta class whose role is to eat builds like FA/Burst Mes and other similar builds that explain thoses builds aren't meta.

    I maintain that :

    And oneshot build are not even 'viable' because they are eaten alive by every other roaming and +1 class apart in NA in which it seems there isn't any good rev/thief to eat burst spec...

    @op and all mesmers whiners :
    Basically what happen in EU :
    1) the mantra mesmer (if there is one because it's pretty rare.) will one shot someone.
    2) he will then be focused all the game by ennemy team (like an FA ele should be) and be a dead weight to his team.
    I dunno if NA ladder with 60% of mesmers didn't have good rev/thief/holo but I can ensure you that if this kind of class is in EU and see a mantra mesmer it's a 4v5 game, that's why we don't see mantra mesmers pass gold in EU.

  • @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    If your invis your damage should be HALFED. You already have the advantage of garenteed hit in stealth. So to balance that out all damage done from stealth should be HALFED allowing for counter play against the invisable un-noticable hits. Imo
    Gain the ability for surprised 1st hit but do less damage? That makes sense to me from a balance stand point.

    i totally agree. after invi for 1-2 sec your damage should be reduced .

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    The things is that putting NA and EU class representation apart, when you choose to spec into stealth one burst build, it has many drawback :

    • No pressure during stealth.
    • No pressure during Bursts intervals.

    No that is exactly the point, a oneshot build that can stack stealth that long that even the best map awareness cannot coutner it has no drawback. A build that has such long stealth periods and restealth abilites that it can either knock you of orbit totally out of nowhere or/and bait out every defensive skill without any effort has no draw back. The only counter to that are equally brainless mechanics or builds i don't want to have in the game either.

    I say it again: i do not talk about the Mantramesmers i only talk about stealth abusing oneshot core PU build with Massinvis.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @RosySefein.8072 said:
    Okay, so I've been playing Mantra Power Shatter since before elite specs were even a thing. When mantras had 3 charges, when they gave +600 toughness on a charge.
    I played it with chrono meta, I still play it now on base PU Mesmer. It's probably the only mesmer playstyle I actually enjoy.

    I think it's fair to say @shadowpass.4236 this is a learn to play issue for you. I probably took a phat dump on you in ranked this season which is why you're upset.
    I think you forget that mantra charging can be interrupted, they're a two pop utility and usually, a burst combo means we're exhausting a full arsenal of cooldowns for a CHANCE to pop a player to downstate. With all the passives in game like signet of stone, endure pain, elixer S, random dodges, heals, protection uptime, blocks, barriers, full counter and large HP pools necros have it's not exactly an S tier playstyle. The amount of times a full burst gets wasted on a RANDOM dodge bro, no joke...

    1 shot builds can be 1 shot by "non1 shot build" classes. Condition damage, lockdown, there are so many ways to punish the playstyle.
    It just grinds my gears to see people complaining about mantra's, but it's not like it matters because Anet already has plans to nerf them with the unreleased balance consideration post.
    ON TOP OF THAT, What else do you want me to play fam? Condi's are boring, and Mesmer has literally no other build that's effective and fun to play. If it's the only build I enjoy playing that is remotely (emphasis on REMOTELY) viable, why ruin that? There is no other option, no alternate. Burst builds are fun, they're also killable.

    At the end of the day it's a gimmick playstyle and build.

    Also shout out to my boy Mur. Can't wait for my main account to get off a 6-month ban lol

    Just because 1 shot builds arent meta and have hard counters doesnt mean its fun to fight. Its still a gimmick playstyle that has minimal counterplay other than "just dodge".

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    one-shot from stealth because the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map and insta-killed me with ZERO tells or any chance to react.

    Biggest bunch of BS and alone is proof of how lacking you are.

    Outside of portal mesmer blinks once ever 30 seconds for 1200 range, and if mirage that's plus a couple jaunts and a couple leaps at the cost of endurance, and then MAYBE you get half way across the map, and that's more than enough for you to see them coming.

    Most mesmers, particularly one shot builds carry around 5-6 seconds of steath. Two of which have massive tells, and one consisting of a signet which is not only a give away among clones, but lets you know that he has it. The only really sneaky one is Decoy which A. makes a clone, and B. has a 40 second cooldown.

    The entire burst combo can be avoided by 1 dodge and has a 3/4 second windup, and unlike thief can't evade spam (because mesmer adheres to the same average number of defensive cooldowns, and flat out less than any medium class.)

    You say "No tell", but that "no tell" is your own lack of awareness for the map or your opponent. No one's fault other than your own if you can't anticipate a combo in at most a relatively short 5-6 second window while knowing that they need to end a 3/4 cast at a specific distance if they want to one shot.

    This is a super easy to play around window of stealth, and has more than enough leeway to punish whiffs.
    (imagine if thief played by this rule.)

    Also one shot builds don't run chaos. You NEED MA in dom and and SC in dueling to one shot anyone who isn't an ele or thief who is typing.
    and by the by, if they have 2 mantras, they only have 3 seconds of stealth on demand.

    You really dont need to take the statement "the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map" that literally. There are so many spots in maps where you can stealth out of los, and then be in a fight within 2-4 seconds. And yes, certain mesmer burst combos have no telegraph. The mirror blade mantra shatter combo is enough to nearly 1 shot a lot of builds, and it doesnt have any tell. Good mesmers attack opponents who arent aware of/expecting them. Good mesmers dont open with the hugely telegraphed phantasmal berserker. The 1 shot playstyle isnt overpowered, its just annoying as hell.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    To be fair, I always considered mantras the Least egregious abilities of Mesmer to face. Atleast, those skills behave like other classes' skills.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    Well 5+ steath occur every 48 sec, 1 burst every 48 sec who hasn't 100% chances of down the target and who can do only that explain enough why it's not meta, despite vids who never highlight the fails.

    So what are the solutions :

    • Remove MoP ? this will just make opponents survive 80% of times and will make this kind of build a +1 with very bad mobility compared to thieves/rev.
    • Remove Stealth ? this will just delete builds using GS because as explained before, GS need stealth to be viable.

    BTW with next patch, faced LoS on mantra mean that as long as you are always on movement : you should see the GS2 because the mesmer will run through you or you will go behind the mesmer and split his burst.

    Now I don't care because I never play double mantra mesmer because it never was viable pass gold but this post is clearly full of casuals duellists who didn't have a piece of what is pro/cons on a class, what point capture in 5v5 mode is and want to duel everything with everyclass and his mother.

    Start by giving mesmer real teamfight utility and AOE damage then we can talk about gutting his single target options.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 I mean until now you didn't agree to anything that could get nerfed on Mesmer, not even old CI trait. You rly are in the middle of everything here :joy:

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    Then again start by giving mesmer AOE damage/effects and team utility then we can talk about gutting single target damage. Cause it's start to be little boring to see nerf after nerf gameplay lost with no counterpart/new gameplay.

    PS: and the amount of stealth PU give like CI was never a problem since recently...
    I'm just worried about the size of the anti-mesmers mafia.

  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    They already nerfed power mesmer really badly, it's completely out of the meta, and is a meme build nowadays

    • daze into stun and stun duration increase was removed.
    • ci is disabled
    • mental anguish got gutted from 50/25 to 20/10 yikes
    • they got a 5% modifier vs lower targets xd master trait xD meanwhile other classes get gain x based on 10% of the ur power or 10% vs foes with X or when ur up above 90%.
    • mirage dodge duration got nerfed, jaunt got nerfed, elusive mind got nerfed
    • chrono is dead because shatter nerfs lmao
    • mirage power is ok but is dead once it's dodges are used

    As for your complaints

    • Mantras have 3 second charge time, easy to interrupt or burst them during it.
    • Guardian mantras counts recharge twice as fast as mesmer ones and have more charges
    • mesmer can not duel, support or deal consistent pressure. It can only burst

    [eA] Sakura | Kaineng

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Then again start by giving mesmer AOE damage/effects and team utility then we can talk about gutting single target damage. Cause it's start to be little boring to see nerf after nerf gameplay lost with no counterpart/new gameplay.

    PS: and the amount of stealth PU give like CI was never a problem since recently...
    I'm just worried about the size of the anti-mesmers mafia.

    I didn't say anything about the dmg only about the amount and duration of stealth (in combination with barely any tell oneshot dmg). And it always was an issue just like CI always was a broken trait also before it got used. PU was nerfed from utterly broken to still broken. The problem is the mechanic itself is unhealthy, like Mirage EM trait: You either nerf it until it is useless or it is broken. They should have reworked PU instead of just nerf it.

    • mental anguish got gutted from 50/25 to 20/10 yikes

    Still Chrono and Core Mes (here even with Choaline traited) can hit 7k+Mind Wrack without any clone (pre nerf Chrono) with stacked dmg traits and dmg boni rune (like scholar) what is a lot for a no animation instant skill.

    As for your complaints

    • Mantras have 3 second charge time, easy to interrupt or burst them during it.
    • Guardian mantras counts recharge twice as fast as mesmer ones and have more charges
    • mesmer can not duel, support or deal consistent pressure. It can only burst

    I never complained about Mantras in general, i don't mind the mechanic, i don't mind that they are instant as long as they are not braindead spammable for dmg (or lock down cc), like Mantra of Pain itself or Mantra of Distraction with Lost Time. I would remove Fresh Air Ele from the game as well simply for the unhealthy range instant high dmg mechanic or at least cut the dmg to half, no matter that it barely get used in conquest.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Then again start by giving mesmer AOE damage/effects and team utility then we can talk about gutting single target damage. Cause it's start to be little boring to see nerf after nerf gameplay lost with no counterpart/new gameplay.

    PS: and the amount of stealth PU give like CI was never a problem since recently...
    I'm just worried about the size of the anti-mesmers mafia.

    I didn't say anything about the dmg only about the amount and duration of stealth (in combination with barely any tell oneshot dmg). And it always was an issue just like CI always was a broken trait also before it got used. PU was nerfed from utterly broken to still broken. The problem is the mechanic itself is unhealthy, like Mirage EM trait: You either nerf it until it is useless or it is broken. They should have reworked PU instead of just nerf it.

    And PU was hard nerfed the day they put power and speed on boon proc. It's a niche trait who had his uses only in WvW form portal bomb and before to hide on keep but it was never usefull in PvP.
    Decoy was CD nerfed, midnight signet was 3 sec stealth with PU and torch is high CD with no trait.
    So again and you said it, it's taken only because Mass invis is the only worth core ultime.

    Now we can do a game (not only you but every people in this thread) while waiting to next mantra nerf : go to EU twitch stream and count the number of op mantra stealth burst they meet in game.

    BTW this post has no reason to exist since they plan to nerf mantras next patch.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    I read your post and I understand it just fine but I reiterate the point which neither you or Shadowfall have given an explanation for:

    If it was so effective then it would be played more. If you truly want it nerfed/changed you should encourage people to play it so it reaches the devs attention. Here's the long and short of it, dev time is limited for balancing. They only focus on what is over performing at the time and create patches for it. Every now and then they do a rework because of a direction they want to go in but that's it. So right now the mantra build is flying under the radar completely because no-one plays it.

    It's funny you talk about brain dead though, how is mantras any more braindead than all the other stuff we have in the game at the moment? It's not me defending broken stuff or "mesmer mains" it's me saying take a step back and actually look at the broken kitten in the meta at the moment. Mantras aren't causing that big a problem but what is causing problems is how spammy and no skill PoF specs have made the game. What is causing problems is how utterly overloaded they are. Those are real problems that really are affecting more people than the 3 guys playing mantra mesmer and being remotely effective and many of them are causing problems across the game.

    You know what lower skilled players can't deal with? Reaper, berserker, scourge, burst guard, condi thief, holo, you name it there's tons of stuff "lower skilled" players can't deal with. Stop making excuses and stop demonising people who disagree with you and actually open your eyes. The whole game is kitten, the whole game is a mess, this is not causing problems but the rest of the stuff is.

    Everything you said in the last paragraph is exactly how the game is and it's not solely the fault of a build no-one plays, it's the problem of PoF and if you don't like it I dunno what to say, we've been here 2 years now with this braindead spam. WAKE UP.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    I read your post and I understand it just fine but I reiterate the point which neither you or Shadowfall have given an explanation for:

    If it was so effective then it would be played more. If you truly want it nerfed/changed you should encourage people to play it so it reaches the devs attention. Here's the long and short of it, dev time is limited for balancing. They only focus on what is over performing at the time and create patches for it. Every now and then they do a rework because of a direction they want to go in but that's it. So right now the mantra build is flying under the radar completely because no-one plays it.

    It's funny you talk about brain dead though, how is mantras any more braindead than all the other stuff we have in the game at the moment? It's not me defending broken stuff or "mesmer mains" it's me saying take a step back and actually look at the broken kitten in the meta at the moment. Mantras aren't causing that big a problem but what is causing problems is how spammy and no skill PoF specs have made the game. What is causing problems is how utterly overloaded they are. Those are real problems that really are affecting more people than the 3 guys playing mantra mesmer and being remotely effective and many of them are causing problems across the game.

    You know what lower skilled players can't deal with? Reaper, berserker, scourge, burst guard, condi thief, holo, you name it there's tons of stuff "lower skilled" players can't deal with. Stop making excuses and stop demonising people who disagree with you and actually open your eyes. The whole game is kitten, the whole game is a mess, this is not causing problems but the rest of the stuff is.

    Everything you said in the last paragraph is exactly how the game is and it's not solely the fault of a build no-one plays, it's the problem of PoF and if you don't like it I dunno what to say, we've been here 2 years now with this braindead spam. WAKE UP.

    Found he his ( @bravan.3876 ) the most dangerous type of guy (whether he is aware of it or not) when talking about mesmer nerf because contrary to 80% "nerf it" post, he jutify with some arguments like skill, and some objective view discretly written on his argumentation so that everyone who didn't take a step back first think 'he is right', nerf this.
    Like can I ask for vids showing mesmer bursts on differents specs than glassy zerk specs to be convinced that it's 100% unpredictable and get a kill ?
    Not to say that everyone who disagree is on the devilish extremist side of the argumentation.

    And I can already predict the answer he will give to your last post : "hey but I' m all for nerfing other class too" <= yeah so start by other class, thanks.

    In short do the game I suggested in my last post because this discussion will lead nowhere :

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Then again start by giving mesmer AOE damage/effects and team utility then we can talk about gutting single target damage. Cause it's start to be little boring to see nerf after nerf gameplay lost with no counterpart/new gameplay.

    PS: and the amount of stealth PU give like CI was never a problem since recently...
    I'm just worried about the size of the anti-mesmers mafia.

    I didn't say anything about the dmg only about the amount and duration of stealth (in combination with barely any tell oneshot dmg). And it always was an issue just like CI always was a broken trait also before it got used. PU was nerfed from utterly broken to still broken. The problem is the mechanic itself is unhealthy, like Mirage EM trait: You either nerf it until it is useless or it is broken. They should have reworked PU instead of just nerf it.

    And PU was hard nerfed the day they put power and speed on boon proc. It's a niche trait who had his uses only in WvW form portal bomb and before to hide on keep but it was never usefull in PvP.
    Decoy was CD nerfed, midnight signet was 3 sec stealth with PU and torch is high CD with no trait.
    So again and you said it, it's taken only because Mass invis is the only worth core ultime.

    Now we can do a game (not only you but every people in this thread) while waiting to next mantra nerf : go to EU twitch stream and count the number of op mantra stealth burst they meet in game.

    BTW this post has no reason to exist since they plan to nerf mantras next patch.

  • I said it before, I will say it again:

    stealth is broken and must be removed from the game.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    I read your post and I understand it just fine but I reiterate the point which neither you or Shadowfall have given an explanation for:

    If it was so effective then it would be played more. If you truly want it nerfed/changed you should encourage people to play it so it reaches the devs attention. Here's the long and short of it, dev time is limited for balancing. They only focus on what is over performing at the time and create patches for it. Every now and then they do a rework because of a direction they want to go in but that's it. So right now the mantra build is flying under the radar completely because no-one plays it.

    It's funny you talk about brain dead though, how is mantras any more braindead than all the other stuff we have in the game at the moment? It's not me defending broken stuff or "mesmer mains" it's me saying take a step back and actually look at the broken kitten in the meta at the moment. Mantras aren't causing that big a problem but what is causing problems is how spammy and no skill PoF specs have made the game. What is causing problems is how utterly overloaded they are. Those are real problems that really are affecting more people than the 3 guys playing mantra mesmer and being remotely effective and many of them are causing problems across the game.

    You know what lower skilled players can't deal with? Reaper, berserker, scourge, burst guard, condi thief, holo, you name it there's tons of stuff "lower skilled" players can't deal with. Stop making excuses and stop demonising people who disagree with you and actually open your eyes. The whole game is kitten, the whole game is a mess, this is not causing problems but the rest of the stuff is.

    Everything you said in the last paragraph is exactly how the game is and it's not solely the fault of a build no-one plays, it's the problem of PoF and if you don't like it I dunno what to say, we've been here 2 years now with this braindead spam. WAKE UP.

    Found he his ( @bravan.3876 ) the most dangerous type of guy (whether he is aware of it or not) when talking about mesmer nerf because contrary to 80% "nerf it" post, he jutify with some arguments like skill, and some objective view discretly written on his argumentation so that everyone who didn't take a step back first think 'he is right', nerf this.

    Yeah i know i am dangerous because i have arguments :joy: Better i just cry for nerfs for everything on Mesmer without any good argument like OP right? But don't worry after this post i am out here and you Mesmer mains can deal with ppl like OP alone.

    @apharma.3741 :
    You don't read correct, i never talked about Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain), this was purely about the amount and duration of stealth from PU Core Mesmers running Massinv. I jumped in this thread to even defend (most) Mantras vs the OP and even defend other oneshotbuilds which are not carried by unhealthy mechanics (stealthabuse not stealth itself, Lost Time double instant max range dmg Chrono pre nerf) in addition to the oneshot dmg. But i am not blindly denying that OP has a fair point on a few things (means on the stealthabuse PU Core build, Mantra of Pain and Chaosline).

    I am pretty sure that neither OPs position with nerf everything on Mesmer until this class has nothing anymore nor your Mesmer mains position with everything is fine on Mesmer is correct. And humans experience proves that truth often lies in the middle.

    You also missunderstood my essay about the state of the game. In my view both types of ppl (means you/ Viquing+other Mesmer mains with defending even lame stuff on Mesmer on one side and on the other side OP+others wanna get everything nerfed on Mesmer, even stuff that is skillful and balanced just need 1 braincell and a bit of class and gameknowledge to counter easy) don't help to make this game less braindead. I think mainclass player who are biased and biased low skilled class hater are the most dangerous ppl for good balance. I try to be as least biased as possible for a human and using a lot of time to find reasonable compromises inbetween you/Viquings and OPs positions using facts and arguments/ opinions based on logic and game/ class-knowledge from mulitclassing and because of that Viquing feels the most threatened by me. Somehow makes sense though. It is easier to deal with someone only crying for nerfs without having good arguments. (greetings to @Bazooka.3590 and his thread "Nerf Condi Thief" for this excellent example)

    I also clearly said to make this game less braindead all classes need to be nerfed, defensive traitlines need to be reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg. The power creep is also but not only because of the elite specs, a lot of pre Hot changes already did a lot for that. So many traits got baseline on a lot of classes with the traitline rework, means classes now could equip other traits in addition. Also statbonis from traitlines got deleted etc. Some but not all elite mechanics add power creep in addition (example for power creep through elite mechanic itself: Rifle f1 skill on Warrior was balanced in core days, insane dmg when it hit but for that very long casttime with great animation. HoT-Berserker mode turned it into a skill with still insane dmg but made it nearly instant with barely any animation, who thought that this is a good idea? Other elite specs add more skill ceiling without necessary being power creeped only from the mechanic itself and only need some adjustment in numbers, Holo for example has a higher skill ceiling in its pure mechanic than any core Engi build in my opinion but needs number-nerfs in sustain/resustain/ dmg and simply a bit longer cds on Holomode and its skills).

    Long story short: For a less braindead, less noobfriendly game nerfs on all classes are needed. Some stuff only need adjustment in numbers (less dmg, less dmg multiplier %, less healmultiplier, shorter boonduration, less often access to boons, longer cds etc.), some stuff need to be reworked completely because no nerf can make it balanced (nerfs can only make it useless) when the mechanic itself is broken (only few examples: EM, PU, Fresh Air Ele, DE as elite is problematic near to either broken or useless, stealthstacking in general, on first view i rly like the idea to disable all dmg multiplier traits after 3 secs in stealth, so you still can stack stealth for days for defensive purposes and repositioning but with opportunity costs in dmg. Oneshots without any tell out of 3/5 secs stealth are counterable, oneshots without tell completely out of nowhere/out of stealth for days are not). Not always the needed nerfs you find in the elitespec lines. Often the defensive Corelines are the most overperforming ones. Passive sustain should get reduced as much as possible. If you take more (mostly active) sustain or support you should have way more opportunity costs in dmg and so on...

    Another note to conquest meta (even though i think i explained it pretty well and with a good build example already): Conquest meta is not the lamest stuff, it is one of the lamest (not the only lame) that has the highest value in a specific role in conquest or in these power creeped days even in more than one role. A build can be lame and carry the player like crazy but still not rly be the best choice in conquest because of the role system. That way you can have builds braindead and broken and still not overly used in conquest, at least not in Plat3/ Legend or mATs. Saying everything that is not meta can't be braindead or broken or can't have unhealthy mechanics is simply wrong.

    But whatever, you and other Mesmers can do that job with talking to ppl like OP now. I give up and i am tired to get accused by ppl like OP to be biased positive about Mesmers and by Mesmer mains to be Mesmer hater. But be careful to not have arguments during talking about Mesmer or you deserve to get into jail because when you have arguments you are dangerous! I guess a constructive discussion about a class balance should look like that:

    Player A: NERF EVRYTHING ON MESMER, ALSO, OR IN PARTICULAR, THE SKILLBASED STUFF, BECAUSE I WANNA STAY BAD AND CAN'T DEAL WITH IT (Memo: Don't add arguments which make sense pls! If you get in trouble you can exaggerate some tooltips like Jawgeous and OP did).

    Player B: NO! DON'T NERF/ REWORK ANYTHING ON MESMER (Memo: Don't add any arguments except of maybe " because other stuff is even lamer and it is not conquest meta" if you get in trouble).

    This nonsense discussion you can do without me, hf with your no arguments discussion because we learnt: arguments (in particular good ones) are dangerous!

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    I read your post and I understand it just fine but I reiterate the point which neither you or Shadowfall have given an explanation for:

    If it was so effective then it would be played more. If you truly want it nerfed/changed you should encourage people to play it so it reaches the devs attention. Here's the long and short of it, dev time is limited for balancing. They only focus on what is over performing at the time and create patches for it. Every now and then they do a rework because of a direction they want to go in but that's it. So right now the mantra build is flying under the radar completely because no-one plays it.

    It's funny you talk about brain dead though, how is mantras any more braindead than all the other stuff we have in the game at the moment? It's not me defending broken stuff or "mesmer mains" it's me saying take a step back and actually look at the broken kitten in the meta at the moment. Mantras aren't causing that big a problem but what is causing problems is how spammy and no skill PoF specs have made the game. What is causing problems is how utterly overloaded they are. Those are real problems that really are affecting more people than the 3 guys playing mantra mesmer and being remotely effective and many of them are causing problems across the game.

    You know what lower skilled players can't deal with? Reaper, berserker, scourge, burst guard, condi thief, holo, you name it there's tons of stuff "lower skilled" players can't deal with. Stop making excuses and stop demonising people who disagree with you and actually open your eyes. The whole game is kitten, the whole game is a mess, this is not causing problems but the rest of the stuff is.

    Everything you said in the last paragraph is exactly how the game is and it's not solely the fault of a build no-one plays, it's the problem of PoF and if you don't like it I dunno what to say, we've been here 2 years now with this braindead spam. WAKE UP.

    Found he his ( @bravan.3876 ) the most dangerous type of guy (whether he is aware of it or not) when talking about mesmer nerf because contrary to 80% "nerf it" post, he jutify with some arguments like skill, and some objective view discretly written on his argumentation so that everyone who didn't take a step back first think 'he is right', nerf this.

    Yeah i know i am dangerous because i have arguments :joy: Better i just cry for nerfs for everything on Mesmer without any good argument like OP right? But don't worry after this post i am out here and you Mesmer mains can deal with ppl like OP alone.

    @apharma.3741 :
    You don't read correct, i never talked about Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain), this was purely about the amount and duration of stealth from PU Core Mesmers running Massinv. I jumped in this thread to even defend (most) Mantras vs the OP and even defend other oneshotbuilds which are not carried by unhealthy mechanics (stealthabuse not stealth itself, Lost Time double instant max range dmg Chrono pre nerf) in addition to the oneshot dmg. But i am not blindly denying that OP has a fair point on a few things (means on the stealthabuse PU Core build, Mantra of Pain and Chaosline).

    I am pretty sure that neither OPs position with nerf everything on Mesmer until this class has nothing anymore nor your Mesmer mains position with everything is fine on Mesmer is correct. And humans experience proves that truth often lies in the middle.

    You also missunderstood my essay about the state of the game. In my view both types of ppl (means you/ Viquing+other Mesmer mains with defending even lame stuff on Mesmer on one side and on the other side OP+others wanna get everything nerfed on Mesmer, even stuff that is skillful and balanced just need 1 braincell and a bit of class and gameknowledge to counter easy) don't help to make this game less braindead. I think mainclass player who are biased and biased low skilled class hater are the most dangerous ppl for good balance. I try to be as least biased as possible for a human and using a lot of time to find reasonable compromises inbetween you/Viquings and OPs positions using facts and arguments/ opinions based on logic and game/ class-knowledge from mulitclassing and because of that Viquing feels the most threatened by me. Somehow makes sense though. It is easier to deal with someone only crying for nerfs without having good arguments. (greetings to @Bazooka.3590 and his thread "Nerf Condi Thief" for this excellent example)

    I also clearly said to make this game less braindead all classes need to be nerfed, defensive traitlines need to be reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg. The power creep is also but not only because of the elite specs, a lot of pre Hot changes already did a lot for that. So many traits got baseline on a lot of classes with the traitline rework, means classes now could equip other traits in addition. Also statbonis from traitlines got deleted etc. Some but not all elite mechanics add power creep in addition (example for power creep through elite mechanic itself: Rifle f1 skill on Warrior was balanced in core days, insane dmg when it hit but for that very long casttime with great animation. HoT-Berserker mode turned it into a skill with still insane dmg but made it nearly instant with barely any animation, who thought that this is a good idea? Other elite specs add more skill ceiling without necessary being power creeped only from the mechanic itself and only need some adjustment in numbers, Holo for example has a higher skill ceiling in its pure mechanic than any core Engi build in my opinion but needs number-nerfs in sustain/resustain/ dmg and simply a bit longer cds on Holomode and its skills).

    Long story short: For a less braindead, less noobfriendly game nerfs on all classes are needed. Some stuff only need adjustment in numbers (less dmg, less dmg multiplier %, less healmultiplier, shorter boonduration, less often access to boons, longer cds etc.), some stuff need to be reworked completely because no nerf can make it balanced (nerfs can only make it useless) when the mechanic itself is broken (only few examples: EM, PU, Fresh Air Ele, DE as elite is problematic near to either broken or useless, stealthstacking in general, on first view i rly like the idea to disable all dmg multiplier traits after 3 secs in stealth, so you still can stack stealth for days for defensive purposes and repositioning but with opportunity costs in dmg. Oneshots without any tell out of 3/5 secs stealth are counterable, oneshots without tell completely out of nowhere/out of stealth for days are not). Not always the needed nerfs you find in the elitespec lines. Often the defensive Corelines are the most overperforming ones. Passive sustain should get reduced as much as possible. If you take more (mostly active) sustain or support you should have way more opportunity costs in dmg and so on...

    Another note to conquest meta (even though i think i explained it pretty well and with a good build example already): Conquest meta is not the lamest stuff, it is one of the lamest (not the only lame) that has the highest value in a specific role in conquest or in these power creeped days even in more than one role. A build can be lame and carry the player like crazy but still not rly be the best choice in conquest because of the role system. That way you can have builds braindead and broken and still not overly used in conquest, at least not in Plat3/ Legend or mATs. Saying everything that is not meta can't be braindead or broken or can't have unhealthy mechanics is simply wrong.

    But whatever, you and other Mesmers can do that job with talking to ppl like OP now. I give up and i am tired to get accused by ppl like OP to be biased positive about Mesmers and by Mesmer mains to be Mesmer hater. But be careful to not have arguments during talking about Mesmer or you deserve to get into jail because when you have arguments you are dangerous! I guess a constructive discussion about a class balance should look like that:

    Player A: NERF EVRYTHING ON MESMER, ALSO, OR IN PARTICULAR, THE SKILLBASED STUFF, BECAUSE I WANNA STAY BAD AND CAN'T DEAL WITH IT (Memo: Don't add arguments which make sense pls! If you get in trouble you can exaggerate some tooltips like Jawgeous and OP did).

    Player B: NO! DON'T NERF ANYTHING ON MESMER (Memo: Don't add any arguments except of maybe " because other stuff is even lamer and it is not conquest meta" if you get in trouble).

    This nonsense discussion you can do without me, hf with your no arguments discussion because we learnt: arguments (in particular good ones) are dangerous!

    No you still don't get it. It's been 2 years since PoF hit and we still have the absurd power creep and brain dead spam, it's not quite as bad as PoF launch but we still have the bad mechanics. This isn't going to change. It's not that I don't want my Guild Wars 2 pre HoT back, it's that I know and have accepted that we will not get that going off what has come out of balance patches.

    I'm not accusing you of anything except clinging on to some dream of the game changing like some victim of domestic abuse, saying "but this time is different, they said they've changed". NO. WAKE UP. This game isn't changing, as far as we can tell the devs want this mindless spam and braindead no thoughts mechanics and power creep. Accept it's not going back, it's here to stay and play less like I and many others have done.

    You don't have to read this next bit it's a bonus:

    Something on Class M gets nerfed.
    Did it lower the people playing the class?
    No, return to start.
    Yes, people stop playing it.
    They buff something else to be brain dead, spammy and lower the skill floor more.
    People play it and it's broken and it's not fun and we get "Player A" threads about it.
    Return to start.

    This is what is happening, they're not breaking the cycle and there's not reason to believe they ever intend to fix the mess of spam and power creep as they haven't in the last 2 years and instead only been buffing things that really didn't need it, like ele.

    Edit: Maybe this diagram will help.
    https://imgur.com/a/kQjryys

    This is where we are, we aren't going backward and as far as we can tell there's no reason to think otherwise. The coloured circles indicate power levels during patches, the cycling of patches.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    There he is, i waited for you :blush: i love you too but we already know that we better just agree to disagree. If you think an onehsot build that can stealth for days and restealth that often and knock you completely out of nowhere is fine then that is your right. There are tons of different builds Mesmers can play without me would even care, not just one build but denying that the stealthabuse from PU on a oneshot Mes is a problem and not easy to play is weird i think. I have no special build in mind, i just point out broken mechnics (as there is abuse of stealth, or spammable high instant range dmg from Mantra of Pain or Lost Time etc., i am also not saying Chrono treatment was fair, they better just reworded Lost Time instead). I also already said i don't mind active sustain as long as it is not brainless nearly perma spammable but the amount of passive sustain is just too high in this game, not only in the defensive lines of Mesmer, it is the case for most/all classes.

    I think that the moment you take GS and no staff, so you don't have high kite ability, stealth is mandatory to survive versus thieve/rev/focus (note that it didn't work versus holo reveal.). Since release, every direct damage build take at least torch, even in the hand of high skilled mesmers. Explain me how a GS mesmer survive more than a blink versus a thief with no stealth ? (And chrono shield was always meh since at least 2 of meta class can ever hit though block.)
    So yeah stealth is a major survival mesmer mecanic since release. The "tons of builds" who play with no stealth use staff to kite with 2.
    You haven't the choice if you run GS. And I'm not even talking about stealth to land burst but just to survive with a GS in hand.
    PU was over-nerfed since they put 2 random boon and is used only because they : 1) BD nerf. 2) Mass invis is the only worth ulti. 3) It's a manipulation skill and core mes highly rely on manipulation.
    Stealth is more active than most passive aegis/low cd block/perma retaliation/full heal in 1 clic and 3 in 1 spell we found in the current environnement. Also just for curiosity, active sustain = spam evade under perma vigor or weapon block/evade while doing damage for you ?

    It is not about no stealth, it is about the pure amount of stealth and restealth you have on PU Coremes. Also please don't forget that it was not me opening complain threads over complain thread, not about Mesmer , not about other classes ( i did one time as a joke to show how stupid the amount of exaggerating nerf thread in the forum was at that point). I just try to sort out the stuff you rly can complain about from the stuff that is a l2p issue. I just want to avoid that Anet balance any class for low skilled casuals prefer to whine in forums instead improving. Still not all points op made are wrong. I get a bit annoyed tbh that i always get hit from both extrem sides of the drama during trying to reduce complains to the rly lame stuff.

    I said not perma spammable active sustain btw pls read correct.

    The problem with the OP is he tends to project best possible scenarios rather than realistic scenarios. ... but incredibly biased and unrepresentative comparisons are very damaging too especially when trying to portray the idea that "mirage is broken" while passing off their own class as fine even though it's doing 30k rapid fires at that moment in time with a 1 button set up.

    Yes that is exactly the reason why i interfere and do the effort to post in this thread. But then some Mesmer mains jump me when i have the insolence to call anything a Mesmer has as lame or op.

    I think it also doesn't help that we're all talking about different builds and taking the best from multiple aspects. You play an all in or mostly in core shatter mes you can one shot easily but if you're using blink, decoy, signet and mass invis you're not running mantras. You can also only do long duration stealth (5s+) about every 20s and costs you your defence making it front loaded in damage. When you pick up a mantra your stealth duration go down no matter which way you cut it and add in chrono that goes down more. Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    >

    Is mantra of pain and distraction dumb and easy low risk high reward? Yes they 100% are. Is this unique to mesmer? No, not even close. You look at how the skill floor has not just reached the bottom but is now making buddies with Satan in hell and you realise this. I know you've said this as well but it needs repeating, most classes are braindead spam and damage, I'd love to see it toned down but if the look at the previews are anything to go by ANet is happy with this power level. Accept it and move on.

    I made clear, that the only oneshot build i agree with op is the PU Coremes with the stealthabuse. I also think it is kinda logic and no one rly can deny that oneshot builds have lower skill ceiling and are less reactive than power/burst builds without oneshot mechanic. That doesn't mean it is the lamest in the game, we all agree that Holo is the biggest bad guy in the game atm and not Mesmer. I also never complained about Mantra Mesmer i only agreed to parts of the complains from others, like Lost Time on Chrono or Mantra of Pain. I am clearly not one of the NA biased Mantramesmer hater, i even tried to explain, that after the remove of stun on daze trait and CI trait Manta of Distraction isn't any issue anymore, quite the opposite. I tried to explain why it needs to be instant and is more reactive and has more counterplay than most other utilites, at least as an interrupt tool (during it was no skill, high reward only as lock down skill or combined with Lost Time, which made it rewarding enough to only braindead spam it). Also no one can deny that Chaosline and Inspiration make Mesmer way more casualfriendly compared to builds without any of these 2 lines. Every Mesmer build that ever rly was broken used one or even both of these lines. But that is not Mesmers only, it is the same with Defenseline on Warrior or Alchemy on Engi. I would like to see these traitlines get reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg across all classes. Atm every class can go for high forgiving passive sustain and still do insane dmg, often on top of great mobility and high cc abilties. When you then try to play a high risk, high reward build vs a low risk high reward meta ofc you will have problems and feel handicapped. You either compensate that with skill or with abusing other broken mechanics like stealthabuse. Understandable but Mesmers like to have the attitude to think the moment they play power they are per se less carried but in the end PU Core is almost on par with the carry lvl of metabuilds, no matter that it is still less viable. So in my view it is a balance issue just like all other classes have a lot of builds with broken parts need nerfs.

    Yes Anet is overdoing it with the only casual orientation a lot atm. I already said in another thread, if it rly is Anet's plan to only be casual, to not have supported hardcore content (also in PvE) and competitive content (WvW, PvP, GvG) than they should just clearly say it so the last loyal competitive GW2 fan can finally stop hoping and move on, let the game to only casual Open World PvEer visiting PvP/WvW 2 times a year when they run out of content and be happy when they find easy to play builds they can feel like pros without any skill and only face other low skilled ppl don't care for the gamemode and for improving at all. Lets get rid of all builds need skill to play or skill to play against, we don't want to use brain, that is not chill enough.

    The thing is, i believe that the playerbase who wants more than just some Open World content is bigger than Anet think... and that it is way easier to make content for gamemodes being replayable by themself as long as you add a bit of content here and there and support competition. Instead creating stories and Open World content for months/ years ppl can play through in 2 hours with barely any incentive to replay it.

    >

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Then there's the elephant in the room, the way you counter one shot builds is map awareness, as the skill level of players goes down this becomes less and less prevalent so these builds do better and better.

    One shot builds from stealth are kinda lame but PvP is more than just fighting, it's about movement, strategy and awareness. I don't agree with core PU mesmer being on par with meta builds, certainly not elite specs. PU core is forgiving if you burst and run but won't do much outside of that and will only really linger for about 12s to maybe have another crack if you don't go for the mesmer, certainly not if they blew their stealth trying to one shot. Most meta builds can hang around a fight and keep trying several times before having to leave, they have a lot more tools for dealing with situations and generally more flexibility, even the +1 builds can linger in fights quite a while.

    What would ANet get out of telling people they're not the intended market so should look elsewhere? Less customers, it's not in their interest to do anything.

    That a hit and run build needs to hit and run is not an argument for it being less carry than other builds can sustain a situation longer, it is just a different playstyle, even though i agree that kiting/ movement needs more skill than braindead facetank on point but thats why i said ALMOST on par^^ Also the problem is that a onehsot Mesmer coming out of a 5+ secs stealth has more or less a freekill when not failing the burst in conquest. The best map awareness cannot counter such long stealth. When they can stealth up long enough to do all completely out of earshot and out of your visible range (and only a Chrono using Continuumsplit to stack stealth or a PU Mes can do that) than it has no counter. I am really not easy to oneshot i never complained about the Greatswordburst, not even when coming out of stealth, as long as you have a chance to hear or see that a Mesmer is near (about to get in blink range or at least in visible range i mean, ofc not melee near) before he tries to kill me but the core PU oneshot build is cancer.

    No that a hit and run build is rendered useless if it cannot either run (because it used all it's disengage for an engage) or hit because you LoS and kite if you don't know where it is is an argument for the build being less of a carry. People who have played these builds know where you stealth up, when you move and how you move. You know when you're going to be bursted or likely to be +1 because you have experience with the playstyle.

    Keeping track of the stealth burst classes like thief and mesmer is what I've said 3 times now is the counter and if you don't know where it is you kite and LoS to prevent a 1 shot, wasting their stealth. Even if they re-stealth your team gets the better exchange because that's 1 less burst the mesmer can do. You can also keep the fighting on 2 nodes making the +1 predictable but that's a comp thing. Protection, demolishers and a decent health pool (which describes most of the classes you will +1) will drastically reduce the damage taken and make a 1 shot unlikely to happen.

    The reality is that if the build was anywhere near as broken within the current state of the game you would see it more but you don't because it's effect on a game is far less than most other options.

    As said i never had a problem with that until Core PU became a thing now and i never complained about Mesmer using Torch or Decoy (Signet of Midnight) or even both of these without Chaosline. Map awareness is no counter vs such amount of stealth.
    That it is not very viable in particual for ATs with coordinated teams doesn't prove my points wrong. Some builds can be noobfriendly easy and broken and still be less useful for conquest because mostly all these builds are only good at is carrying the player without adding much to a teams benefit. Best example is the inspiration signet spam build played with axe and sword mainhand weapons from that NA Countless guy. Super useless build for conquest but can carry players who have problems to reactively dodge the right things so it can just spam invulns, dodges and shatters. No rly good dmg, no rly good pointhold sustain not even in a 1vs1, no good +1 ability, no support, can't win any duel fast enough to not get plused by opponents Thief or Rev before, except vs noobs or ppl with high risk high reward builds not smart enough to just ignore him in 1v1 situations, can't hold outnumbered fights, just has nothing needed in a conquest match. The impact on a match is not zero but pretty low compared to other builds. An assasine style roaming build like core PU is clearly more useful than that, at least in solo q with uncoordinated teams without communication, no matter that it is kind of slow compared to other roaming builds.
    I mean lets compare to a Dagger Mainhand DE Thief he can hit you with 18k+ Mal. Backstabs without any tell (no mark needed) and no one would argue that this is good balance. Is that overly used in conquest? Luckily not, still braindead and broken mechanic should get nerfed. Mirror Blade tell from melee out of stealth is way to short that you can wait for it when executed well, in particular with the stun on f3. Means to dodge that with a good chance you need to be able to predict when the mesmer will inc on you, you can do that easy when you at least know a Mesmer is near and the stealth duration doesn't last for days so you don't have to use 3+ defensive skills randomly until the Mesmer would drop out of stealth (also with such high stealth duration he can just walk to your Los or none teleportspot and start the combo right in your face still being in stealth, happend to me during a duel. Moving/kiting is the only thing can help a bit by making it harder for the Mesmer to get near to you and increasing the distance Mirrorblade has to travel to hit you, so you have more time to react to it). I don't mind Mesmers using stealth just the amount and the duration on Core PU is ridiculous. Stealthing out of LoS and out of earshot and coming out of nowhere is mostly a freekill and bad design and carries player not enough skill for reactive fights and to outplay ppl. The current PU core build has remarkable less counterplay than other Mesmer oneshotbuilds, when coming out of nowhere not even a single one.

    Again, if this was the case, you would see more of it. If GW2 has taught us anything it's that players gravitate to the build with the lowest skill and highest reward. If this build was impactful it would be played more but it isn't so it's not really a problem.

    If you and Shadowfall really think these builds are so grossly overtuned play them, spread the word, get people to represent them and they will get nerfs/changes. If 18k Mal Backstab thief was that effective in PvP people would run it but barely anyone does. When you see it more often then you will see the nerfs/changes you want.

    Read my post closer, i explained why the amount of uses in conquest says nothing about how broken or easy a build is. But i give up here, and let mesmer mains spar with ppl like shadow... (sry don't remember his name atm) about that.

    But i got it, there is nothing (or everything? confused) on Mesmer needs nerf, every skill, trait and mechanic in whatever combination is fun , fair and skillbased. (also give old CI back, there was nothing, absolute nothing wrong with that trait). How about other classes then? Same? Or do they need to be nerfed into the ground just not Mesmer? Why do i even care.

    Lets enjoy the most braindead meta (with the very few competent players remaining) since game release and make it even worse by either allowing lame stuff to survive justified by other lame or lamer builds existing or by nerfing skillbased mechanics (lets delete Mesmer completely will be the best) because lower skilled ppl cannot deal with them. Anet seems to be on casual only trip anyway, hence all is fine. Happy casuals can join PvP twice a year when waiting for next PvE releases finding easy builds they can feel like heroes with, without the need of getting skill or build/ gameknowledge and without the effort to get matched with ppl playing builds need skill to play or even worse need skill to play against (Jesus!) and without the unfun experience to meet any decent player would ruin their chill and hero experience (these players are so toxic anyway right?). Lets run beast with 5 ppl and then get stolen by the one thief with one braindcell left in the other team, I can't wait to play this game on that lvl. The time is near. Peaceful casual heaven when no one is left with enough experience and skill telling you what you could do better to not throw their games, all these toxic ppl gone. HEAVEN!

    Don Quixote over and out.
    Why are some windmills dextrogyral and others laevorotary? Someone can explain?

    I read your post and I understand it just fine but I reiterate the point which neither you or Shadowfall have given an explanation for:

    If it was so effective then it would be played more. If you truly want it nerfed/changed you should encourage people to play it so it reaches the devs attention. Here's the long and short of it, dev time is limited for balancing. They only focus on what is over performing at the time and create patches for it. Every now and then they do a rework because of a direction they want to go in but that's it. So right now the mantra build is flying under the radar completely because no-one plays it.

    It's funny you talk about brain dead though, how is mantras any more braindead than all the other stuff we have in the game at the moment? It's not me defending broken stuff or "mesmer mains" it's me saying take a step back and actually look at the broken kitten in the meta at the moment. Mantras aren't causing that big a problem but what is causing problems is how spammy and no skill PoF specs have made the game. What is causing problems is how utterly overloaded they are. Those are real problems that really are affecting more people than the 3 guys playing mantra mesmer and being remotely effective and many of them are causing problems across the game.

    You know what lower skilled players can't deal with? Reaper, berserker, scourge, burst guard, condi thief, holo, you name it there's tons of stuff "lower skilled" players can't deal with. Stop making excuses and stop demonising people who disagree with you and actually open your eyes. The whole game is kitten, the whole game is a mess, this is not causing problems but the rest of the stuff is.

    Everything you said in the last paragraph is exactly how the game is and it's not solely the fault of a build no-one plays, it's the problem of PoF and if you don't like it I dunno what to say, we've been here 2 years now with this braindead spam. WAKE UP.

    Found he his ( @bravan.3876 ) the most dangerous type of guy (whether he is aware of it or not) when talking about mesmer nerf because contrary to 80% "nerf it" post, he jutify with some arguments like skill, and some objective view discretly written on his argumentation so that everyone who didn't take a step back first think 'he is right', nerf this.

    Yeah i know i am dangerous because i have arguments :joy: Better i just cry for nerfs for everything on Mesmer without any good argument like OP right? But don't worry after this post i am out here and you Mesmer mains can deal with ppl like OP alone.

    @apharma.3741 :
    You don't read correct, i never talked about Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain), this was purely about the amount and duration of stealth from PU Core Mesmers running Massinv. I jumped in this thread to even defend (most) Mantras vs the OP and even defend other oneshotbuilds which are not carried by unhealthy mechanics (stealthabuse not stealth itself, Lost Time double instant max range dmg Chrono pre nerf) in addition to the oneshot dmg. But i am not blindly denying that OP has a fair point on a few things (means on the stealthabuse PU Core build, Mantra of Pain and Chaosline).

    I am pretty sure that neither OPs position with nerf everything on Mesmer until this class has nothing anymore nor your Mesmer mains position with everything is fine on Mesmer is correct. And humans experience proves that truth often lies in the middle.

    You also missunderstood my essay about the state of the game. In my view both types of ppl (means you/ Viquing+other Mesmer mains with defending even lame stuff on Mesmer on one side and on the other side OP+others wanna get everything nerfed on Mesmer, even stuff that is skillful and balanced just need 1 braincell and a bit of class and gameknowledge to counter easy) don't help to make this game less braindead. I think mainclass player who are biased and biased low skilled class hater are the most dangerous ppl for good balance. I try to be as least biased as possible for a human and using a lot of time to find reasonable compromises inbetween you/Viquings and OPs positions using facts and arguments/ opinions based on logic and game/ class-knowledge from mulitclassing and because of that Viquing feels the most threatened by me. Somehow makes sense though. It is easier to deal with someone only crying for nerfs without having good arguments. (greetings to @Bazooka.3590 and his thread "Nerf Condi Thief" for this excellent example)

    I also clearly said to make this game less braindead all classes need to be nerfed, defensive traitlines need to be reworked into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg. The power creep is also but not only because of the elite specs, a lot of pre Hot changes already did a lot for that. So many traits got baseline on a lot of classes with the traitline rework, means classes now could equip other traits in addition. Also statbonis from traitlines got deleted etc. Some but not all elite mechanics add power creep in addition (example for power creep through elite mechanic itself: Rifle f1 skill on Warrior was balanced in core days, insane dmg when it hit but for that very long casttime with great animation. HoT-Berserker mode turned it into a skill with still insane dmg but made it nearly instant with barely any animation, who thought that this is a good idea? Other elite specs add more skill ceiling without necessary being power creeped only from the mechanic itself and only need some adjustment in numbers, Holo for example has a higher skill ceiling in its pure mechanic than any core Engi build in my opinion but needs number-nerfs in sustain/resustain/ dmg and simply a bit longer cds on Holomode and its skills).

    Long story short: For a less braindead, less noobfriendly game nerfs on all classes are needed. Some stuff only need adjustment in numbers (less dmg, less dmg multiplier %, less healmultiplier, shorter boonduration, less often access to boons, longer cds etc.), some stuff need to be reworked completely because no nerf can make it balanced (nerfs can only make it useless) when the mechanic itself is broken (only few examples: EM, PU, Fresh Air Ele, DE as elite is problematic near to either broken or useless, stealthstacking in general, on first view i rly like the idea to disable all dmg multiplier traits after 3 secs in stealth, so you still can stack stealth for days for defensive purposes and repositioning but with opportunity costs in dmg. Oneshots without any tell out of 3/5 secs stealth are counterable, oneshots without tell completely out of nowhere/out of stealth for days are not). Not always the needed nerfs you find in the elitespec lines. Often the defensive Corelines are the most overperforming ones. Passive sustain should get reduced as much as possible. If you take more (mostly active) sustain or support you should have way more opportunity costs in dmg and so on...

    Another note to conquest meta (even though i think i explained it pretty well and with a good build example already): Conquest meta is not the lamest stuff, it is one of the lamest (not the only lame) that has the highest value in a specific role in conquest or in these power creeped days even in more than one role. A build can be lame and carry the player like crazy but still not rly be the best choice in conquest because of the role system. That way you can have builds braindead and broken and still not overly used in conquest, at least not in Plat3/ Legend or mATs. Saying everything that is not meta can't be braindead or broken or can't have unhealthy mechanics is simply wrong.

    But whatever, you and other Mesmers can do that job with talking to ppl like OP now. I give up and i am tired to get accused by ppl like OP to be biased positive about Mesmers and by Mesmer mains to be Mesmer hater. But be careful to not have arguments during talking about Mesmer or you deserve to get into jail because when you have arguments you are dangerous! I guess a constructive discussion about a class balance should look like that:

    Player A: NERF EVRYTHING ON MESMER, ALSO, OR IN PARTICULAR, THE SKILLBASED STUFF, BECAUSE I WANNA STAY BAD AND CAN'T DEAL WITH IT (Memo: Don't add arguments which make sense pls! If you get in trouble you can exaggerate some tooltips like Jawgeous and OP did).

    Player B: NO! DON'T NERF ANYTHING ON MESMER (Memo: Don't add any arguments except of maybe " because other stuff is even lamer and it is not conquest meta" if you get in trouble).

    This nonsense discussion you can do without me, hf with your no arguments discussion because we learnt: arguments (in particular good ones) are dangerous!

    No you still don't get it. It's been 2 years since PoF hit and we still have the absurd power creep and brain dead spam, it's not quite as bad as PoF launch but we still have the bad mechanics. This isn't going to change. It's not that I don't want my Guild Wars 2 pre HoT back, it's that I know and have accepted that we will not get that going off what has come out of balance patches.

    I'm not accusing you of anything except clinging on to some dream of the game changing like some victim of domestic abuse, saying "but this time is different, they said they've changed". NO. WAKE UP. This game isn't changing, as far as we can tell the devs want this mindless spam and braindead no thoughts mechanics and power creep. Accept it's not going back, it's here to stay and play less like I and many others have done.

    You don't have to read this next bit it's a bonus:

    Something on Class M gets nerfed.
    Did it lower the people playing the class?
    No, return to start.
    Yes, people stop playing it.
    They buff something else to be brain dead, spammy and lower the skill floor more.
    People play it and it's broken and it's not fun and we get "Player A" threads about it.
    Return to start.

    This is what is happening, they're not breaking the cycle and there's not reason to believe they ever intend to fix the mess of spam and power creep as they haven't in the last 2 years and instead only been buffing things that really didn't need it, like ele.

    The moment ppl like me stop writing in forum all Anet will read is extrem player a vs extrem player b, giving both an easy time. Means as long as ppl care enough about that game to try to dumb it down to their skill lvl with their biased balance suggestions that long i see value in doing the effort to add some sense in these discussions. At least as long as i play this game. And we lately saw how effective complaining in forums can be (CI got disabled, i don't say that was wrong by Anet but it clearly shows that complaining in forums can be successful). Means yeah maybe im dumb for still wasting time into that, but at least i waste time to make a game, i still see insane potential in, better and not even worse because i have not enough skill to play a class when it is not braindead or because i have not enough skill to play vs a class or build that has no unhealthy/unfair mechanics used, so i prefer to complain in forums and get it nerfed into death instead watching some guides and improve.
    Also tbh sometimes i am stuck at work and have nothing better to do. Means it is paid time for me :joy:

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    Adding Reveal the moment skills starts that initiates the burst/damages a lot beforehand and a small channel to the those that needs could see itself fair to people with horrible connection, even though there was a stun to daze nerf.

    That's the best change I can think of without ruining everything that can combo stealth right next to someone or the damage that keeps things relevant and could force ambushes to be out of good angles and times rather than just anywhere and anytime.

    For example, Mirror Blade Reveals the moment the player starts to prepare his throw or that thief back stab is no longer instant and has a small channel to avoid instant damage that people have no chance to see coming.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

  • @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

  • @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @bravan.3876 :
    The problem is that 95% of your arguments are objective : "it's noobcarrying", "it's skills", "it's braindead", "it's lame", etc. (Come on, where is the argumentation ?)
    Your argumentation isn't good at all if you don't understand the spike in my last post.
    You just manipulate opinion with no real data behind.
    Give me numbers, I agree with you. Give me skill argument, I will always write against.
    The next problem is that you aren't on the middle at all but slowly nerf mesmers patch after patch. The only difference with you and shadow is that you nerf step by step whereas shadow do axe nerf.
    And what is dangerous is because many people agree with step by step nerf because you know it's just a step. Now when you do the addition it's worst than ever.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    Like portal ?
    Or alacrity ?
    Or quickness ?
    Or moa ?
    Or group stealth ?
    Thanks for noticing it's not anymore the case. :3 <3

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    Like portal ?
    Or alacrity ?
    Or quickness ?
    Or moa ?
    Or group stealth ?
    Thanks for noticing it's not anymore the case. :3 <3

    Tip my hat to you friend.

  • AngelLovesFredrik.6741AngelLovesFredrik.6741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    Like portal ?
    Or alacrity ?
    Or quickness ?
    Or moa ?
    Or group stealth ?
    Thanks for noticing it's not anymore the case. :3 <3

    Alacrity was never really mesmer exclusive. Classes could get it via conversion really into HoT.
    Portal, sure I'll give you that one.
    Quickness was never mesmer exclusive. Guard had it since release. Also agility sigil.
    Moa is still kinda mesmer only, except on core engineer which is kitten anyway.
    Thief has had group stealth since core. Engineer had it since core.
    Thanks for being so unbiased in your posts.

    Edit; :3 <3

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    Like portal ?
    Or alacrity ?
    Or quickness ?
    Or moa ?
    Or group stealth ?
    Thanks for noticing it's not anymore the case. :3 <3

    Alacrity was never really mesmer exclusive. Classes could get it via conversion really into HoT.

    perfectly unbiased view. You could get it by conversion ! Well done. It wasn't considered as a boon before ...

    Portal, sure I'll give you that one.
    Quickness was never mesmer exclusive. Guard had it since release. Also agility sigil.

    Gard share quickness since release ? Vanilla PvE 5 guys hasn't one mesmer to time wrap ?

    Moa is still kinda mesmer only, except on core engineer which is kitten anyway.

    It was used by many engineer during few season, more than mesmers. Btw no more exclusive. And considering the CD, it's better on engi than on mes.

    Thief has had group stealth since core. Engineer had it since core.

    Yes, mesmer stealth groupe just go to the most efficient team stealth to a : it's not the best way to give group stealth.

    Thanks for being so unbiased in your posts.

    You'r welcome.

    Edit; :3 <3

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    Deleting skills outright doesn't sound like a great idea. What 8f mantras worked like guardians focus skill ray of judgement? Wouldn't that alleviate the insta cast issues yet still be used as part of a burst?

  • @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Bring glamour trait back, re nerf staff 2(could be used to jump back onto walls and stuff years ago) buff staff 5 and sword 3 or rework them. Put some love into focus and sword off hand. With these in mind do a total rework on mesmer, changin its role into something else than a burst class ( which is all you can do with power mes in a competitive arena). Then remove the mesmer mantras. Remove gimmicky builds and so.

    I have been playing it so long and there was something called cloneless mesmer back in the days. Phantas mes, shatter mes, glamour mes, condi duelist mes et. There were so many options.

    There were so many nerfs on mes and so many bad new skills/abilities invented for other professions that mesmer lost its character/uniqueness. I feel that no mes player from pre hot is really happy with where the profession is going.

    Buff staff 5? Are you high?

    Not higher than those who whined this class into oblivion or the devs that gave unique class abilities to other professions and then nerf it into the ground, no.

    Mesmer still has more class unique abilities than most other classes.

    Like portal ?
    Or alacrity ?
    Or quickness ?
    Or moa ?
    Or group stealth ?
    Thanks for noticing it's not anymore the case. :3 <3

    Alacrity was never really mesmer exclusive. Classes could get it via conversion really into HoT.

    perfectly unbiased view. You could get it by conversion ! Well done. It wasn't considered as a boon before ...

    Portal, sure I'll give you that one.
    Quickness was never mesmer exclusive. Guard had it since release. Also agility sigil.

    Gard share quickness since release ? Vanilla PvE 5 guys hasn't one mesmer to time wrap ?

    Yes, guardian used to have tomes way back when. They could share quickness since day one. Just because mesmer was better at it didn't make it exclusive.

    Moa is still kinda mesmer only, except on core engineer which is kitten anyway.

    It was used by many engineer during few season, more than mesmers. Btw no more exclusive. And considering the CD, it's better on engi than on mes.

    Arguable.

    Thief has had group stealth since core. Engineer had it since core.

    Yes, mesmer stealth groupe just go to the most efficient team stealth to a : it's not the best way to give group stealth.

    During early dungeon days, and to this day thief with pistol 5 and blasts covers stealth. In core, shadow refuge was meta in PvP.

    Thanks for being so unbiased in your posts.

    You'r welcome.

    Edit; :3 <3

    Aegis share used to be guardian exclusive, now mesmers can do it. You don't see me acting like a 4 year old about it. (I know you could technically chaos storm for an aegis proc to share.)

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    The problem is that 95% of your arguments are objective : "it's noobcarrying", "it's skills", "it's braindead", "it's lame", etc. (Come on, where is the argumentation ?)
    Your argumentation isn't good at all if you don't understand the spike in my last post.
    You just manipulate opinion with no real data behind.
    Give me numbers, I agree with you. Give me skill argument, I will always write against.
    The next problem is that you aren't on the middle at all but slowly nerf mesmers patch after patch. The only difference with you and shadow is that you nerf step by step whereas shadow do axe nerf.
    And what is dangerous is because many people agree with step by step nerf because you know it's just a step. Now when you do the addition it's worst than ever.

    Oh come on, i always explained very detailed and with lot of words why something is lame, op or unhealthy mechanic. Just read all my posts again they wouldn't be wall of texts if i only would judge. I also used a lot of time to explain why something is not op and doesn't need nerfs on Mesmer. But i mean you can stop fighting, you won, i am out here. Neither ppl like you nor ppl like shadow will agree on a little bit no matter how many facts or logic is brought up. He will open another nerf Mantra thread in few days with the same arguments already proven wrong about most of the stuff he crys about. You will never agree to any single little nerf, all is fine, fair and skillbased on Mesmer, even need buffs (only other classes need big nerfs i guess) no matter how much i or others explain. Do what you want, i am tired of that kitten.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    Can we stop asking for mantra nerfs?

    @Henrik.7560 said:
    They already nerfed power mesmer really badly, it's completely out of the meta, and is a meme build nowadays

    • daze into stun and stun duration increase was removed.
    • ci is disabled
    • mental anguish got gutted from 50/25 to 20/10 yikes

    Because this and

    @Shao.7236 said:
    But when you know there's a one shot mesmer that exists, they are useless and can only chip you at best.

    This? They're already getting line of sight/facing mods so they cant be spammed while retreating. Leave the mantras alone.
    (Disagreeing with that useless part because they can still nuke you while you're busy/if you dont see/hear them prestige. Its definitely not stealthMaul untelegraphed though.)

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Aegis share used to be guardian exclusive, now mesmers can do it. You don't see me acting like a 4 year old about it. (I know you could technically chaos storm for an aegis proc to share.)

    Thanks to remember me that distorsion sharing was nerfed ...

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @bravan.3876 :
    The problem is that 95% of your arguments are objective : "it's noobcarrying", "it's skills", "it's braindead", "it's lame", etc. (Come on, where is the argumentation ?)
    Your argumentation isn't good at all if you don't understand the spike in my last post.
    You just manipulate opinion with no real data behind.
    Give me numbers, I agree with you. Give me skill argument, I will always write against.
    The next problem is that you aren't on the middle at all but slowly nerf mesmers patch after patch. The only difference with you and shadow is that you nerf step by step whereas shadow do axe nerf.
    And what is dangerous is because many people agree with step by step nerf because you know it's just a step. Now when you do the addition it's worst than ever.

    Oh come on, i always explained very detailed and with lot of words why something is lame, op or unhealthy mechanic. Just read all my posts again they wouldn't be wall of texts if i only would judge. I also used a lot of time to explain why something is not op and doesn't need nerfs on Mesmer. But i mean you can stop fighting, you won, i am out here. Neither ppl like you nor ppl like shadow will agree on a little bit no matter how many facts or logic is brought up. He will open another nerf Mantra thread in few days with the same arguments already proven wrong about most of the stuff he crys about. You will never agree to any single little nerf, all is fine, fair and skillbased on Mesmer, even need buffs (only other classes need big nerfs i guess) no matter how much i or others explain. Do what you want, i am tired of that kitten.

    I already read your posts in integrality much times, and they mainly contain objective view like in the CI discussion where CI was lame because PB is skilled. The few value you give are 5+ stealth duration which when we read the CD is not that op IMO.
    Again when we start looking about proves like seeing streams (not only the 10 sec vids of a mesmer one shotting someone shadow give.), we found that not only they are not that represented but also they don't 100% kill builds who aren't glassy and are hard countered by many +1 opponents.

    It's not about fighting something and I already post balance suggestions with nerfs.

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