Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff?

24

Comments

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • @Anput.4620 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

    That's not how game balance works.

    Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

    Balance is there to achieve equal viability and strenght between different builds in specific situations.

    That sounds ideal, but will likely never happen for games like this. Devs don't want to lose the casual, gem buying players who won't bother to play anything other than the top tier builds for most situations.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Everyone gets marked for the same durations.
    There's ways around most marked areas.
    Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.
    Deadeyes still able to stealth for 95% of the time they're in a fight.
    There's mounts.

    Stealth in this game is low tier to put it nicely, it should have been designed for engaging and disengaging from a fight, not spammable and for use for the entirety of a fight, or usable like cloak and dagger on a god kitten wall(yes I know that was nerfed 6 years ago). But anet put stealth into the game without much thought into it like thinking of counter plays, because they didn't give a kitten until it was abused on a raid boss. Over the years they've had to add more reveals to the game because there's no reliable counter tells, in Wow you can't walk in front of someone otherwise it gives you a shadow and sound when a stealth is nearby.

    So nope, any nerf to stealth is a good nerf, and that's coming from a mesmer main.

    The funny thing is, engaging and disengaging is literally all stealth is good for. In fact, thats when stealth is broken, when a permastealth deadeye oneshots you without you even knowing they were ever there, or a mesmer stealths up outside your vision range, blinks on you and oneshots you. Stealth used in-combat is actually terrible. It used to be used exclusively for stealth attacks, but those are bad now as well, so only Deadeye rifle uses stealth when fighting. Otherwise, youre just locking yourself out of attacks for a couple seconds, gaining no defenses, while the enemy continues to just kill you. What stealth needs is nerfs for out of combat scenarios (in particular Shatter Mes and Malicious Backstab DE), and buffs for in-combat scenarios, so that thieves signature combat gimmick isnt one they ignore almost entirely. Really, its telling that unless the stealth is combined with clones which provide that neccessary split second of confusion, stealth is just generally really really bad.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

    It seems like you need a bit more practice on DE. I win against many of the most notable roaming/dueling guild tags. I'm not some god-tier player, either, so they're definitely not potatoes. Get out there and try something other than metabattle builds, you'll find DE more than a capable fight against any 1v1 provided you know how to pilot it, and know what your enemy has to offer.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

    I play NA prime time almost every day, and I have seen no burn guardians and barely any tank eles. I see far more condi Mirages than Rev/Heralds, Reapers/Scourges, Guardians/DH, and Weavers. I actually encounter more condi mirages than other Thieves. But no, not more than Soulbeasts or Holosmiths. Now, is it possible that we're both right in what we encounter whilst we play? Perhaps...though I highly doubt you see burn guardians or any iteration of elementalist more than you see Mesmers.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

    I may be inexperienced, but usually for me the hardest enemies to fight are condi screen clutter mirages and perma stealth dead eyes. But this doesn’t change the fact that stealth is bad for the game and needs to be toned down and as I said earlier, removing the ability to remove revealed needs to go.

  • It took us 30 minutes to find and kill a Deadeye that was porting enemy forces into Hills on the Alpine Borderlands. 30 minutes. 1 guy. I seriously don't know what your problem is.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

    I may be inexperienced, but usually for me the hardest enemies to fight are condi screen clutter mirages and perma stealth dead eyes. But this doesn’t change the fact that stealth is bad for the game and needs to be toned down and as I said earlier, removing the ability to remove revealed needs to go.

    The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval.
    Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1

    So in your opinion the fact that marked completely mitigates two select able traits from a trait line wouldn't make a difference in a fight? I mean seriously? Potentially from your view 66% of a single trait line can simply be rendered completely useless, but that won't make a difference in a fight? Seriously? Oh and also you forgot these traits that are also useless/greatly nerfed while marked. Concealing restoration, leeching venom's and merciful ambush.

    I mean good for you, not all of us are Jason Bourne thieves who can win fights against holosmiths and mirages or boon beasts running only 2 trait lines. But I don't really believe that you truly think that SA thieves stand any sort of chance against competent players while marked.

    Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    I never said thieves are weak 1v1 first of, simply that 1v1's as a thief can be challenging when not marked.

    Let me now explain why any thief running main hand dagger should never win a fight while marked. Even without SA. Because the main killer isn't not being able to hide in stealth for more than 2 seconds. Its the 5 second reveal if you are unable to drop stealth voluntarily. If there was a button i could push that removed the stealth effect then it would be so much less oppressive. But a main hand dagger thief after gaining stealth has 2 seconds to land an attack. Now remember in order to do proper damage, the thief needs to land a back stab in the back. Two seconds is such little time to position this in a 1v1 that against a player with half a brain its basically impossible. if the player dodges the backstab/blocks/distortion etc, thats an entire second of the two seconds you have gone instantly. More often or not, a good player can avoid a stealth attack for 2 seconds. Because they know that the only window the thief has to attack is within that two second window. Which makes predicting the attack laughably easy. Once the attack is avoided. The thief is then forcibly revealed for 5 SECONDS. That's 5 seconds where the dagger thief has absolutely no access to its main damage dealing skill. 5 Seconds in which the opponent can go to town without fear of reprisal. If the thief lasts that long it restealths inorder to attempt to land damage again, and so the cycle repeats itself until the thief is dead.

    Now there are thief builds that are less affected by marked. S/P DE is one of them. S/D acro is another as well as staff DD or condi DD.

    Im sure against a fresh new player where the skill gap is abnormally large an SA dagger main hand thief could win. But like i said, you're average player will wipe the floor with the thief, no matter how good they are.

    But I don't know, I'm unsure how a player who says they main thief could honestly say with a straight face that SA thieves are unaffected in a fight while marked when they are only able to use 2 of their 3 trait lines.

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

    What you are saying is like saying a ranger has a better chance of winning by staying at range, so we should remove all gap closers so to not disadvantaged rangers and that they auto lose when in melee range...

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    The context of my statement was the thief is marked during the fight. The thief loses everytime while fighting marked. Outside of marked the thief has a much better chance as I think thief is still pretty strong when played correctly.

    What you are saying is like saying a ranger has a better chance of winning by staying at range, so we should remove all gap closers so to not disadvantaged rangers and that they auto lose when in melee range...

    Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

    If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

    Nice straw man argument.

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

    If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

    Nice straw man argument

    Well yes it is about class balance, you are wanted to remove a wvw mechanic to benefit classes that rely on a high uptime of stealth.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Well.... no because that would be altering class balance. I'm not discussing class balance I'm discussing an external WvW mechanic.

    If i were saying thief typically loses fights at range and therefore we should have more gap closes, then your point would be relevant.

    Nice straw man argument

    Well yes it is about class balance, you are wanted to remove a wvw mechanic to benefit classes that rely on a high uptime of stealth.

    Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

    On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

    I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

    On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

    I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

    Balance is balance whether it’s class balance or a mechanic in place that effect something else to keep something else in balance. Yes it is a bad way to do it and imo, marked needs to go as well, but only after significant changes are made to stealth and the deadeye class to stop perma stealthing cheese.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Not the type of class balance that you tried bring up in your straw man argument, as I demonstrated how irrelevant that point was in my last reply. High up time? Did you read any of my posts? I'm not complaining marked reveals you every eight seconds or something. It reveals you after two. 90% of thief stealth skills last 2 seconds or more.

    On the bright side half the debate is convincing people that marked cripples many builds, which at least you seem to be acutely aware off.

    I don't know how many times i need to repeat this. If you want to nerf builds that have too much stealth then great. But marked is a stupid way to go about it. Because outside of marked these builds are still overpowered. We should be striving for game balance across the entire map. Not simply around some towers and sentries. Furthermore marked indiscriminately targets builds that are already in a very bad place, such as core thief D/D for instance.

    Balance is balance whether it’s class balance or a mechanic in place that effect something else to keep something else in balance. Yes it is a bad way to do it and imo, marked needs to go as well, but only after significant changes are made to stealth and the deadeye class to stop perma stealthing cheese.

    Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

    DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

    DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

    DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

    DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

    Im not saying deadeyes are overpowered, but stealth in its current form is.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Excellent then in the meantime we should add effects to marked to prevent stances lasting too long, Prevents Firebrands from having reflects heals and cleanses, Boon negation that prevents Holos and Soulbeasts from having boons that last longer than two seconds etc.

    DE has too much stealth, stealth used to require risk like landing CnD, or it required using Cooldowns. DE does have wayyy too much stealth. But you're making it sound like DE is still in the state it was in when PoF first released. Its not. DE really isn't that bad next to a holo smith for instance. Even that horrible condi poison DE isn't really much of a threat if you know what you're doing. Its just annoying.

    DE's are annoying as hell cause they pop up try and kill you then run away. Very annoying, but not any more overpowered than pretty much every roaming build on meta battle at the moment.

    Im not saying deadeyes are overpowered, but stealth in its current form is.

    Fair enough, although I agree, I'd add that almost everything is overpowered. Nerfing stealth alone without addressing pretty much everything else would be an injustice.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:
    I never said thieves are weak 1v1 first of, simply that 1v1's as a thief can be challenging when not marked.

    Sure looks like you did:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time.

    Do all Thieves run SA in your mind? I'm confident that's actually the least used traitline.

    Now there are thief builds that are less affected by marked. S/P DE is one of them. S/D acro is another as well as staff DD or condi DD.

    So you're saying a majority of Thief builds are unaffected by marked. Congratulations, that's exactly what I said.

    But I don't know, I'm unsure how a player who says they main thief could honestly say with a straight face that SA thieves are unaffected in a fight while marked when they are only able to use 2 of their 3 trait lines.

    Can you point out where I said that? (you can't) Here's my quote directly from the top of this page:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Sure looks like you did:

    I said "1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging". Not that they are weak.

    Seems we both misread replies, no harm done.

    So you're saying a majority of Thief builds are unaffected by marked. Congratulations, that's exactly what I said.

    I listed 4 builds and that's a majority? I wouldn't say every single build that uses main hand dagger with power is the minority of builds. As i explained that any build running main hand dagger with power is severely gutted while marked SA or no SA.

    Can you point out where I said that? (you can't) Here's my quote directly from the top of this page:

    My error, I often post when its wayyy too late as i did this time. The rest of your post encouraged my error into making me think that you believe SA WASN'T rendered completely useless by marked.

  • The only time I've thought it was totally stupid recently was when another server managed to take and fully upgrade our blue corner in EB, and were hovering between keep and spawn. Since marked was introduced we've been given stuff like mounts and 360 smoke screen, they help a lot combined with a little awareness of your surroundings.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • I believe a fix to this is to simply make mark reduce your stealth duration by 20% instead of reducing it to only 1 second after being casted. That is fair enough. Of course, while marked, you can still stealth and be seen on the map. This is fair tbh, but the current mark mechanics completely ruins some builds.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83174/change-how-marking-works#latest

    I think my suggestion was solid,mark people on the map and remove the reveal aspect.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83174/change-how-marking-works#latest

    I think my suggestion was solid,mark people on the map and remove the reveal aspect.

    Good for a zerg where the reveal doesnt matter in the first place since they either just AoE bomb or the thief doesnt feel like going 1v50 that day, absolutely terrible suggestion for the only area where the stealth might give a distinct advantage, ie 1v1 or smallscale. It would literally not do anything.

    The entire point of revealed is to make it so that you can target the thief.

    A better idea would be doing the complete opposite - reveal them, but dont show on the map.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • For as long as stealth grants full invisibility, marked should reveal, to speed things up after capturing a location to quickly get rid of sneaky players trying to get an easy capture after RI.

    Not letting stealth stack would be a bad idea as it'll break other things in WvW and PvE, but if stealth effects ever get some sort of 'decay' into partial invisibility after 2-3s of full invisibility, then marked could stop giving revealed, and instead instantly decay stealth.

    Decayed stealth would still prevent being targeted, and AI would still ignore it someone partially cloaked, but other players would be able to see a 'shimmer' and locate the cloaked enemies if they pay attention, allowing them to go and attack with non-targeted attacks like cleaves, AoEs and aimed projectiles.

    Stealth needs a full rework anyways.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83174/change-how-marking-works#latest

    I think my suggestion was solid,mark people on the map and remove the reveal aspect.

    Good for a zerg where the reveal doesnt matter in the first place since they either just AoE bomb or the thief doesnt feel like going 1v50 that day, absolutely terrible suggestion for the only area where the stealth might give a distinct advantage, ie 1v1 or smallscale. It would literally not do anything.

    The entire point of revealed is to make it so that you can target the thief.

    A better idea would be doing the complete opposite - reveal them, but dont show on the map.

    Stealth doesn't give any more of an advantage than boon spam, or sustained healing, or any of the other things that are abused in small scale at the moment. Thus why its not really a terrible suggestion.

    Is stealth a bit OP? Sure it is. But Its not any more overpowered than all the builds you'll find here: https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW
    Yet its the only thing that marked targets.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Stealth doesn't give any more of an advantage than boon spam, or sustained healing, or any of the other things that are abused in small scale at the moment. Thus why its not really a terrible suggestion.

    ... you can target people boonspamming in order to cc them and likewise you can target people trying to heal sustain so you can poison/cc them.

    I dont think its that OP either, I've said that. But a suggestion pretending to fix something that people only complain about in solo/smallscale while it only does something for zergs that can AoE nuke invisible people is still terrible.

    If I really wanted to kick thieves in the kittens I would say delete their pistol offhand smoke field and stealth on dodge instead.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    ... you can target people boonspamming in order to cc them and likewise you can target people trying to heal sustain so you can poison/cc them.

    You can predict the location of people using stealth to cc them. But believe me, if the answer to killing boon beasts/holosmith and firebrands was to simply CC or poison them, then I'd be all for a thief nerf too. Don't need stealth when you're basically immortal in a 1v1. So like I said, stealth builds are just as busted as previously mentioned builds but marked only effects stealth etc etc.

    I dont think its that OP either, I've said that. But a suggestion pretending to fix something that people only complain about in solo/smallscale while it only does something for zergs that can AoE nuke invisible people is still terrible.

    Thats the point though. Because all the other meta builds are not hindered in anyway. Its not like marked prevents boons lasting more than 2 seconds. Or prevents invulns lasting more than two seconds. So the suggestion to fix the problem is to remove the mechanic that only targets one specific class is not a terrible idea.

    Just to make sure I'm being understood here. If marked nerfed invulns/boons/distortions/barriers/blocks/deathshroud etc so that they only lasted two seconds. Then It would be fair, and I woudn't have nearly as big a problem with it. Because marked would nerf all the aspects of each class that have potential to be abused. I'd still hate it, but I could no longer claim that it hindered only one class.

    If I really wanted to kick thieves in the kittens I would say delete their pistol offhand smoke field and stealth on dodge instead.

    Funny actually back when the game used to be more balanced pre HoT I used to dream of a d/p nerf because it seemed far too low risk high reward way of gaining stealth as opposed to landing CnD. Miss those days hahaha

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    EDIT: I like what I said on a similar thread better than what I wrote here first so I'm just gonna repost that instead.

    When I approach a Sentry I get Marked, which means I'm visible on the mini map. I take this in to consideration any time I decide to capture a Sentry because I know it means there's a risk involved and there's high potential for people to be heading my way. I also know when I fully capture the node Marked will expire, therefore doing so is obviously my priority.

    I also don't fight around towers, especially ones with Watch Tower, because again I know I'll be visible on the mini map. I also know fighting around towers in general is a bad idea for more than a few reasons; it's too easy for my opponent(s) to retreat inside, they could get reinforcements, they could use siege, NPC's could add unnecessary pressure.

    Thieves have extremely high mobility and more control over where and when a fight happens than any other profession. You can't run away from a Thief that's not finished with you, but a Thief that's prepared can choose where the fight starts, ends and where it moves.

    Anyone that doesn't heavily rely on Stealth will think similarly to myself. They'll consider their vulnerability when taking a Sentry, they'll avoid fighting near objectives. But then we have some people who seem to forego logic in favor of mechanics because Stealth can crutch their mistakes. IE, without Marked, certain Stealth heavy builds can push their luck regardless of location because they're immune to a Tactic thats' purpose is to highlight players on the map.

    I'm sorry, but I don't find it to be any less fair for Thieves to have Reveal forced upon them when Marked than it is for any other class to be nakedly visible on the map. The radius of Watch Tower and Sentry isn't any different for Thieves. Consider the risks of being Marked before entering that vicinity, or don't do it.

    💎 [HUNT] [IH] [JEEP] | Necromancer, Engineer, Revenant | Maguuma | Diamond Legend 💎

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

    It seems like you need a bit more practice on DE. I win against many of the most notable roaming/dueling guild tags. I'm not some god-tier player, either, so they're definitely not potatoes. Get out there and try something other than metabattle builds, you'll find DE more than a capable fight against any 1v1 provided you know how to pilot it, and know what your enemy has to offer.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

    I play NA prime time almost every day, and I have seen no burn guardians and barely any tank eles. I see far more condi Mirages than Rev/Heralds, Reapers/Scourges, Guardians/DH, and Weavers. I actually encounter more condi mirages than other Thieves. But no, not more than Soulbeasts or Holosmiths. Now, is it possible that we're both right in what we encounter whilst we play? Perhaps...though I highly doubt you see burn guardians or any iteration of elementalist more than you see Mesmers.

    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

    It seems like you need a bit more practice on DE. I win against many of the most notable roaming/dueling guild tags. I'm not some god-tier player, either, so they're definitely not potatoes. Get out there and try something other than metabattle builds, you'll find DE more than a capable fight against any 1v1 provided you know how to pilot it, and know what your enemy has to offer.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

    I play NA prime time almost every day, and I have seen no burn guardians and barely any tank eles. I see far more condi Mirages than Rev/Heralds, Reapers/Scourges, Guardians/DH, and Weavers. I actually encounter more condi mirages than other Thieves. But no, not more than Soulbeasts or Holosmiths. Now, is it possible that we're both right in what we encounter whilst we play? Perhaps...though I highly doubt you see burn guardians or any iteration of elementalist more than you see Mesmers.

    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    I think this is overstating it. DE can be quite strong when played correctly. You shouldn't really lose to necro's in general when running rifle. Scourges in particular which dominate WvW at the moment can be dealt with swiftly by any competent rifle DE. I stand by that they're not overpowered alongside all the other meta battle builds out there, and that marked is an unfair hindrance that other classes are FAR less affected by. But to say you can never win 1v1's i think is going a bit far.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

    Shadow's Rejuvenation and Shadow's Embrace are the only two traits that suffer from marked, due to having a 3s interval. Other than that, Thieves do not require to be in stealth more than 2s at a time every 5s in order to defeat an enemy. Any Thief playing without Shadow Arts in general should not be very much affected by the Mark in a 1v1. I'm sorry if you are unable to defeat competent opponents 1v1 while you are playing a Thief, and apparently even less so while you are marked, but I am, and I win far more 1v1s than I lose. Are all my roaming enemies in T1/2 prime time simply potatoes? No. I mainly play power DE with S/P offhand and no Shadow Arts. Once again I main and almost exclusively play Thief and I don't know where you're getting this "Thieves are weak 1v1" nonsense. We have many tools other than stealth at our disposal for mitigation and survival.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    I mean, thieves cant beat enemies on their level, but yes, mark generally doesnt affect thief builds right now. Because stealth is bad. In part, due to the marked mechanic. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, going in stealth to try and heal up (After managing to lose the enemies tracking and surviving the first second of stealth) then strike was a valid tactic, and SA was actually playable. But with many nerfs to stealth and SA (in particular the most recent ones making SA comically bad), and the marked mechanic, you just dont really use stealth. And if youre using DE and winning 1v1s, I can tell you, your enemies are definitelly all potatoes. Losing to a spec that has only one skill that does any noticable amount of damage, which you have to be afk to get hit by is pretty bad. Thieves are weak in 1v1, thats just old news at this point. They can win against worse players and undergeared players, but even matchups against other 1v1 classes you simply lose 10/10 times.

    It seems like you need a bit more practice on DE. I win against many of the most notable roaming/dueling guild tags. I'm not some god-tier player, either, so they're definitely not potatoes. Get out there and try something other than metabattle builds, you'll find DE more than a capable fight against any 1v1 provided you know how to pilot it, and know what your enemy has to offer.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I understand that you may play on off hours or lower populated tiers, but I assure you Condi Mirage is just as well represented in roaming as any other roaming profession during populated hours and tiers in NA.

    No you don't understand because you don't know me, I roam small group and zerg, I play in late eu and na prime time and even into pst, I barely see mesmers on my side or the enemy, I fight way more thieves, warriors, engs, rangers, burn guards, tank eles, hell even see more revs and reapers roaming than mesmers these days. Chronos only exist in some remaining organized groups, and the only core mesmer I've seen in months is probably the one from FA. They ain't well represented, I'm sure many have already converted to those other well represented classes or just outright got sick of all the nerfs and left.

    I play NA prime time almost every day, and I have seen no burn guardians and barely any tank eles. I see far more condi Mirages than Rev/Heralds, Reapers/Scourges, Guardians/DH, and Weavers. I actually encounter more condi mirages than other Thieves. But no, not more than Soulbeasts or Holosmiths. Now, is it possible that we're both right in what we encounter whilst we play? Perhaps...though I highly doubt you see burn guardians or any iteration of elementalist more than you see Mesmers.

    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    I think this is overstating it. DE can be quite strong when played correctly. You shouldn't really lose to necro's in general when running rifle. Scourges in particular which dominate WvW at the moment can be dealt with swiftly by any competent rifle DE. I stand by that they're not overpowered alongside all the other meta battle builds out there, and that marked is an unfair hindrance that other classes are FAR less affected by. But to say you can never win 1v1's i think is going a bit far.

    It can be quite strong if played against incorrectly. Whether the DE plays correctly or not simply doesnt matter. And yes, against good necros you should lose. You cant swiftly deal with scourges, because they will dodge your DJ, while your other damage simply isnt enough in any way to get through their sustain. Straight up, every single necro I have killed all came down to one thing: "He failed to dodge DJ". And Im on the glassiest build possible. Try to spam Skirmishers shot, the highest non-DJ DPS skill, and you wont even get the necro down to 25%. Worse yet, if youre using Malificent 7, the only way you will be able to do enough damage without DJ, you run right into the Boon corrupt trap, and die faster. And youre a deadeye, so your condi-clear, especially if youre doing damage, is low to non-existent.

    But perhaps the more accurate way of putting it is "unless your opponent makes a huge mistake, is undergeared, or just way worse than you are, you will never win a 1v1".

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    My DJ is mostly another boon steal for me and it's packed with a few others, if a necro dodges that it's really not a big deal. They will have to dodge or block the whole line up and avoid being pulled among a few other things and once their mitigation is dismantled pretty much any class or build burns fast enough. I use BQoBK instead of M7 though and a quick 1 malice DJ at the start, by then I know if they're thorny or not and I'll use up the rest of my Quickness or roll over Snipers Cover in Kneel for a bit and feel it out. DJ is a nice stealth attack in that I don't have to position as much so I'm not using up much duration in marked areas or if someone knows how to mess with you while you're in stealth.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

  • @Caedmon.6798 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83174/change-how-marking-works#latest

    I think my suggestion was solid,mark people on the map and remove the reveal aspect.

    Totally agree, keep marked remove reveal.
    If not come up with more tradeoff:

    • no invu
    • aeagis has no effect
    • protection disable
    • healing effect 50%
    • ...

    I do not have a Problem with marked, but reveal gives teef a huge disadvantage. Other classes Who can use stealth are affected but cmon, Hologodmod boonspam killa? kitten condi Mirage? Boonbitch? ...

    We all know that this revealed implementation is directly against teef... instead of nerfing one of All the broken POF mechs. .. DE.

    "Hope i get not banned again"

  • @Noodica.5428 said:
    Before we go ahead - I would like to mention that I PERSONALLY called for something to combat permastealth deadeyes before marked sentries etc were added to WvW. I made a video on it which blew up and many people agreed. But instead of sorting this out with the deadeye specialization all stealth oriented builds are literally rendered useless a lot of the time. Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    What are these players to do? Only sit in their half of the map? Marked really needs to be looked at because 30s of no stealthing for long at a time is honestly insanely triggering especially in clutch/intense type situations where that stealth really matters but there is literally nothing you can do. Regular D/P Thieves, Many mesmer builds, Holosmith tool belt, rangers who smoke leap or hunters shot, scrappers with stealth gyro etc - why are literally all of these classes punished because of one overpowered class?

    In all honesty, as annoying as it was having permastealth deadeyes one shot you from stealth - I would rather see the mode return to how it was BEFORE marked revealed you at every corner of the map. Please look into this, especially now that the potential upcoming WvW changes will implement much more reveal around the board anyway.

    As u can see noody, instead of have some fruitfull discussions we face 99% teef haters out of the pve zerk...

    And as we know Anet never return ... but I would be so happy if they would ...

    • backstep miss, with all the aegis Spam Blocks and invus
    • all the nerfs on DP like AA ... omg steal
    • dash nerf
    • marked ÷ revealed
    • ...

    Somehow the only normal nerf is the AA nerf ... the others are focus teef nearly exclusive. Lazy implementations instead of Popper Balance.

    "Hope not get banned again"

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

  • @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    I don't know if I'd say "hard counter", but it's definitely a difficult fight assuming the DE is good.

    When ever I imagine a 1v1 I think of two scenarios; one on a flat open field, and another with a bit of terrain. Necro will lose a lot of 1v1's in an open field. I would say in that situation, yes, DE hard counters Necro. With a little terrain however, I don't think it's a hard counter. On the other hand most iterations of Ranger, even with terrain, would still be a hard counter - particularly for their mobility and staying power on top of their range. DE is easier to predict, albeit with easier access to Immobilize and higher spike, but can afford less mistakes.

    I'm not trying to disprove you but, a lot of people in the Necro sub think Necro is a lot weaker than it actually is as well. So I'd definitely take what they say with a grain of salt, lol.

    💎 [HUNT] [IH] [JEEP] | Necromancer, Engineer, Revenant | Maguuma | Diamond Legend 💎

  • marked is not strong enough. Once marked, no stealth until reset THAT would help a lot.

    People are abusing stealth for no-risk-one-shot builds. Which ARE a reason many players do not want to do wvw. Remove stealth, remove an obstacle that keeps players away from wvw.

  • @kash.9213 said:
    Anyone calling for stealth to be taken out of the game is stupid and should find an easier game for themselves, if there are any easier. I wouldn't mind at all if I had to toggle out of stealth before activating any damage skill as long as there were some duration buff for toggling out that was strong enough to make up for appeasing lazy players who will still cry about it for some reason. Anet could further make up for nerfing stealth by adding more passive mitigation and shadowstep/ports, have fun with that.

    calling to keep stealth in the game is stupid and those defending it should find an easier game for themselves, if there are any easier. No risk killing others demands soo much skill, it is mind boggling this is still in the game. Of course, those who are using this mechanic for their care-free, no risk, all rewards play style defend it as hard as they can and do not shy away from others, scared that someone might take away where no-skill-kill-all fun.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Anyone calling for stealth to be taken out of the game is stupid and should find an easier game for themselves, if there are any easier. I wouldn't mind at all if I had to toggle out of stealth before activating any damage skill as long as there were some duration buff for toggling out that was strong enough to make up for appeasing lazy players who will still cry about it for some reason. Anet could further make up for nerfing stealth by adding more passive mitigation and shadowstep/ports, have fun with that.

    calling to keep stealth in the game is stupid and those defending it should find an easier game for themselves, if there are any easier. No risk killing others demands soo much skill, it is mind boggling this is still in the game. Of course, those who are using this mechanic for their care-free, no risk, all rewards play style defend it as hard as they can and do not shy away from others, scared that someone might take away where no-skill-kill-all fun.

    Have you tried to maintain ‘Perma stealth’ all while preparing to kill someone else?

    As an ele and necro main, I don’t think stealth should be removed. As I’ve said in other threads that the current setup isn’t healthy, but to remove stealth would be unhealthy.

    If it was just removed, you’d have a medium armor warrior that was really bad.

    If you give thief other things to compensate...., well... that would get ugly fast.. you REALLY don’t want that..

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • @Hitman.5829 said:
    Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!
    The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

    • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
    • You never know when the hit is going to come.

    QFT
    whats up with you guys.
    stealth is a stupid game design in EVERY game and should be removed.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

    Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

    Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

    It has nothing to do with that. I still play Deadeye, mainly out of the fact that I cant be bothered to switch gear every time I go from PvE to WvW. But the problem is that its an actively horrible weaponset that entirely relies on bad enemies. Its in dire need of buffs, specifically as far as damage is concerned. Its a joke that Scourge can have far more sustain, be 4 times as tanky, and still out-DPS you with absolute ease. Scourge. A build that should be good at teamfights and bad at 1v1s.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

    Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

    It has nothing to do with that. I still play Deadeye, mainly out of the fact that I cant be bothered to switch gear every time I go from PvE to WvW. But the problem is that its an actively horrible weaponset that entirely relies on bad enemies. Its in dire need of buffs, specifically as far as damage is concerned. Its a joke that Scourge can have far more sustain, be 4 times as tanky, and still out-DPS you with absolute ease. Scourge. A build that should be good at teamfights and bad at 1v1s.

    Look, I've made it clear that I think DE/thief whatever, is completely hard done by when it comes to marked, marked really should be altered in some way to make things more even. But its not under powered. Its not under powered at all. It does counter necro. Maybe a reaper could burst down a DE if the DE makes an error, there was also one reaper build I fought a few times that runs the locust skill that blocks projecticles which was reaallly challenging to kill. But 90% of the time, the DE is going to beat most iterations of necro in most situations. Its ability to kite and stay out of range of the slow and low mobile necro makes the necro an easy target. DE does counter necro at the moment.

    On the flip side, a Holosmith running tools should never lose to a DE. So if you want to talk about DE hardcounter start with holosmith+rifle+lockon.

    But seriously, necro's are DE food. Just like DE's are holo food.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

    Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

    It has nothing to do with that. I still play Deadeye, mainly out of the fact that I cant be bothered to switch gear every time I go from PvE to WvW. But the problem is that its an actively horrible weaponset that entirely relies on bad enemies. Its in dire need of buffs, specifically as far as damage is concerned. Its a joke that Scourge can have far more sustain, be 4 times as tanky, and still out-DPS you with absolute ease. Scourge. A build that should be good at teamfights and bad at 1v1s.

    Look, I've made it clear that I think DE/thief whatever, is completely hard done by when it comes to marked, marked really should be altered in some way to make things more even. But its not under powered. Its not under powered at all. It does counter necro. Maybe a reaper could burst down a DE if the DE makes an error, there was also one reaper build I fought a few times that runs the locust skill that blocks projecticles which was reaallly challenging to kill. But 90% of the time, the DE is going to beat most iterations of necro in most situations. Its ability to kite and stay out of range of the slow and low mobile necro makes the necro an easy target. DE does counter necro at the moment.

    On the flip side, a Holosmith running tools should never lose to a DE. So if you want to talk about DE hardcounter start with holosmith+rifle+lockon.

    But seriously, necro's are DE food. Just like DE's are holo food.

    It is horribly underpowered. It doesnt counter necro. What you describe is that if the thief wants to run away, the necro wont be able to kill the thief. But if the thief wants to fight, the necro can kill the thief. The thief cannot kill the necro. Ive already described why with Deadeyes pathetic damage killing the necro is impossible, so lets go about the "kite and stay out of range" part. Specifically, the part where that doesnt work. You only have a range advantage if youre kneeling. Except, for one kneeling is terrible, but more importantly, you lose that range advantage quickly, since you cant move while attacking. You also dont have much mobility on Rifle, since you need initiative to do any damage, so youre restricted to just shadowstep, which is good burst movement, but bad continous movement.

    So, in reality, what happens is that unless the DE uses its tools to run away, it tries to be out of range of necro and poke a little, the necro barely takes damage, walks up to the kneeling Thief, and marks him. Now the thief is slowed/feared/crippled, the necro can walk even closer, and kill him. While being at no risk to DE at all, since DEs damage, again, is far too low to kill the Necro (in fact, Im pretty sure that with the way the cooldowns are lined up, if you just avoid the Deaths Judgments, the necro wont ever die even if he doesnt fight back).

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I dont, most of my experience was facing Deadeyes and being surprised at how awful all versions of it is. Then I tried it and confirmed my suspicions. There simply isnt any way to win 1v1s. You do a lot less damage, your survivability is a lot lower, your utility is a lot lower and you have nothing to make up for any of it. Its incapable of fighting any 1v1, even the usually easy Necros dont lose.

    Ah, I see. You're just trolling. DE Rifle literally hard-counters all iterations of Necro.

    Thief does. Deadeye, unfortunately, doesnt. The standard issue of "you do less damage and are less survivable" apply. All the Necro has to do is dodge your Deaths Judgment, while applying their choice of condi or power pressure. You dont even really do enough damage to kill a Necro through his survivability, so technically a necro could just dodge and be fine. Usually you might think "well, I have the range advantage", but thats only the case if you kneel. And kneeling is bad, since 300 units are quickly covered, and then youre a sitting duck. And thats really it.

    Incorrect. DE hard-counters Necro. I dare you to go to the Necro forums and tell them that that DE does not.

    I don't need to land Death's Judgement to win 1v1s. Nor should it land, it's the easiest attack to dodge in the game. It's great for using up enemy dodges however! If you'd like me to teach you how to play rifle DE, I may be able to set aside some time...

    Then they must be AFK. Lets do some math. I am playing the glassiest, highest damage build possible. All-in on berserkers, Scholar rune, Critical Strikes, DE, Deadly Arts lineup. Literally the highest, possible damage. Now, lets assume the Necro is on, hm, Scourge, since thats the closest to beatable. Now, on a scourge, with the standard gear setup that a power scourge has, your highest damage skill, Skirmishers shot, hits for about 3k-3.5k. I note, this is the highest damage you can get. Since you wont be running Malificent seven (if you do, the Scourge snaps his fingers, and your boons become conditions you simply cant clear fast enough), you get 4 shots of skirmishers shot. 5 if you wait 3 seconds after the first one. You do, best case scenario, a total of 17.5k, plus another 1k from mug. The scourge meanwhile has 24k health baseline. Thats without doing anything.

    In other words, after 3 seconds of non-stop attacking, hitting the necro hard as you can, with a full glass build, you barely get rid of 2/3 of their health. With the scourge just watching you. Now, lets say the scourge isnt just watching you, and instead is using his skills to survive. Now, we have 8k from Sand Flare, almost 5k in a barrier, and a little over 3k in healing. Suddenly, your 17.5k damage have turned into a measily 9.5k. Less than half the necros hp. Now the Necro well might have Spectral Armor, if he is expecting to fight you, thats another 33% less damage, so your 17.5k turns into about 12k, of which you lose 8k, so youre left, after a full 4 seconds of attacking, with having done 4/24k health in damage on the necro. And this entire thing was just the necro sitting there. Doing nothing but avoiding damage. No counterattack. And I havent even brought up the sand shade barrier.

    Now, we have established that for Deadeye, an unfortunately very low damage class thanks to DJ being impossible to hit, simply doesnt have the damage to kill Necro. Not even remotely. What about Necro killing you? Hoo boy. See, there is this little skill called "Ghastly Claws". Its an axe skill that the current power scourge builds use. Its got a lengthy channel time of 1.75 seconds. Over the course of these 1.75 seconds, it does as much damage as 5 skirmishers shots. Thats right, the entirety of the initiative you dumped into your highest damage skill gets trumped by Necros Axe 2. And thats just one skill, Necro has an entire arsenal left to unleash.

    So no, Deadeye does anything but hard-counter necro. Its helpless against any necro who can dodge Death's Judgment. Regular thief does counter Necro in WvW, mainly on account of doing actual damage. But deadeyes damage numbers are so pathetically low, its signature initiative skill worse than Rangers longbow attack, that it simply stands no chance whatsoever.

    So yeah, either theyre hilariously undergeared, or you hit DJs. Otherwise you simply cant kill Necros, your damage isnt there.

    Well, this explains why you think deadeye is bad, you're on a PvE build which is plain terrible but more importantly your tactics suck because you're too focussed on max DPS.

    Firstly, I run SA trick DE for the boon steal on DJ so protection is a non issue. You have way more DJ attempts than a necro has dodges so eventually you will land it, no matter how good the necro is at dodging.

    Secondly, M7 is more than viable because you shouldn't be in range of most boon corrupts. You have 1500 range on rifle, use it. If you're being hit by scourge corrupts that's your fault.

    Thirdly, you don't use skirmisher's shot Vs necros, you sit at max range with spotter's shot for the immob. This forces them to use cooldowns to close the gap and avoid being killed hilariously because on my marauder build that hits for 4k a shot against anything not full trailblazer.

    Fourthly, don't dump ini into barrier or shroud, this is just obvious. As soon as you see it pop, that's your cue to stealth and reposition.

    Fifthly, use shadowstep aggressively to take advantage of their low mobility. You should be running multiple stunbreaks on any thief build these days, and shadowstep is a cleanse. So you spotter's shot from max range until they close to 900 range, dodge for stealth and port to their flank, spotter's shot for the immob and DJ before it hits (with quickness at 1200 range the DJ will land before the immob wears off), DPS til the close the gap, dodge and return shadowstep, cleansing 3 condis if you got hit on the second engage. Usually the necro is dead or all but dead by this point.

    This is all ignoring the fact that if I run one shot and land the burst, the necro is dead before any of this can happen.

    Deadeye Vs necro is like bird Vs potato, one of these things is never going to catch the other if played correctly. Seriously tho, most of the skills you reference have 900 range. That's entirely on you if you're getting hit by them.

    No, Im focused on max DPS, because as you can imagine, if you do less damage then the Necro is even less likely to be killed.

    Unfortunately, the Necro has more boons than just protection. Ones that are higher in the priority and as a result get stripped first. That is, if you ever hit a DJ, because unfortunately, dodges are not the only way Necro can stop those from hitting, so realistically, you wont hit a single DJ until well into the fight (when youre already dead).

    You only have 1500 range if youre kneeling. Which is actively very bad and something you should never do. And even then, they can just walk up, youre a sitting duck while kneeling after all. And Necros best boon corrupt has 1200 range, so youre gonna be hit by it, no matter what.

    You dont use spotters shot because its bad. Youre just doing less damage over the same amount of time, and the Necro is in no rush to get to you. Theyll just wait til your burned all your initiative, then walk up slowly and kill you. That is, if they dont just pop stability and walk through your spotters shot. Also, your Spotters shot will not do 4k. It will do 3k-3.5k, except on your build with SA, it will do less, so probably 2.5k-3k on a properly geared scourge.

    They will use barrier while your shot is mid-air. You cant stop that, and each barrier only barely takes more than one shot.

    They only have to close to 1200 range. Which is like a second of walking. Or a singular dodge. Your attempt at hitting the DJ obviously wont work since the DJ animation starts before the Immob hits, so they just dodge both (unless theyre really bad), the gap is already closed (Shadowstep has 1200 range, so you wont be able to get a port that isnt them already in range), so they will now be killing you. And even then, with this entire attempt, you will not have killed the necro. With your build, you will not even have gotten them to half health.

    Nope, the cheesy oneshot build needs to hit glass cannons. It does about 14k damage against any non-toughness/damage reduction builds. Against Necro, it does about 8k, since its a toughness/damage reduction build. Thats 1/3 of their health, and now youre dead.

    Its more like tank vs cloaked guy with a knife. Sure, the tank might not be able to stop the cloaked guy from running away, and only is able to kill them if they stay too close for too long. But the cloaked guy with a knife actually can never, ever kill the tank. Its a 1v1 that only has 2 possible outcomes: 1, the thief runs away. 2, the thief dies.

    Well, I tried. Deadeye clearly isn't for you.

    It has nothing to do with that. I still play Deadeye, mainly out of the fact that I cant be bothered to switch gear every time I go from PvE to WvW. But the problem is that its an actively horrible weaponset that entirely relies on bad enemies. Its in dire need of buffs, specifically as far as damage is concerned. Its a joke that Scourge can have far more sustain, be 4 times as tanky, and still out-DPS you with absolute ease. Scourge. A build that should be good at teamfights and bad at 1v1s.

    Look, I've made it clear that I think DE/thief whatever, is completely hard done by when it comes to marked, marked really should be altered in some way to make things more even. But its not under powered. Its not under powered at all. It does counter necro. Maybe a reaper could burst down a DE if the DE makes an error, there was also one reaper build I fought a few times that runs the locust skill that blocks projecticles which was reaallly challenging to kill. But 90% of the time, the DE is going to beat most iterations of necro in most situations. Its ability to kite and stay out of range of the slow and low mobile necro makes the necro an easy target. DE does counter necro at the moment.

    On the flip side, a Holosmith running tools should never lose to a DE. So if you want to talk about DE hardcounter start with holosmith+rifle+lockon.

    But seriously, necro's are DE food. Just like DE's are holo food.

    It is horribly underpowered. It doesnt counter necro. What you describe is that if the thief wants to run away, the necro wont be able to kill the thief. But if the thief wants to fight, the necro can kill the thief. The thief cannot kill the necro. Ive already described why with Deadeyes pathetic damage killing the necro is impossible, so lets go about the "kite and stay out of range" part. Specifically, the part where that doesnt work. You only have a range advantage if youre kneeling. Except, for one kneeling is terrible, but more importantly, you lose that range advantage quickly, since you cant move while attacking. You also dont have much mobility on Rifle, since you need initiative to do any damage, so youre restricted to just shadowstep, which is good burst movement, but bad continous movement.

    So, in reality, what happens is that unless the DE uses its tools to run away, it tries to be out of range of necro and poke a little, the necro barely takes damage, walks up to the kneeling Thief, and marks him. Now the thief is slowed/feared/crippled, the necro can walk even closer, and kill him. While being at no risk to DE at all, since DEs damage, again, is far too low to kill the Necro (in fact, Im pretty sure that with the way the cooldowns are lined up, if you just avoid the Deaths Judgments, the necro wont ever die even if he doesnt fight back).

    Well, I never have any trouble with necro's. All I need to do is engage them at range and keep them at bay with spotters shot to build malice. I feel my damage is more than adequate, as damage is off the rails with every build these days. I think you're far understating DE.

    But we'll agree to disagree much like my disagreements with people who think marked is fine. Although it always seems to be on these forums that a build is brokenly overpowered and needs nerfing or brokenly under powered and needs buffing. DE is fine, it doesn't deserve nerfs before all the other crazy meta battle kitten out there, but it certainly doesn't need any buffs. Its just as broken as everything else.

    EDIT: The only time anything that you've stated happens to me is when I'm marked. For the sake of this thread i'll agree that rifle DE is very underpowered when marked. To the point that a rifle DE should run run away whenever it wanders into marked, even against a necro. But unmarked DE is fine.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.