Am I the only one who is afraid the dragon storyline will just end with Aurene replacing 6 other? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Am I the only one who is afraid the dragon storyline will just end with Aurene replacing 6 other?

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  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    By the time Kralk himself was slain at Dragonfall, there's yet another suggestion in Tom's reply that Aurene may not have been able to absorb all of his magic despite taking it in at ground zero. Perhaps this was because Aurene was still relatively juvenile in size and experience and snacking on Kralk's magic would be a bigger undertaking than taking on Joko.

    Jormag getting Kralk magic is also suggested by the Icebrood Saga mini from the promo (the icebrood with purple Kralk-like energy instead of the Vine-touched energy we saw in LWS3)

    Maybe we're seeing Mordremoth's mind energy being used already, based on the Suspicious Travelers and Bangar, to telepathically send thoughts/speech longer distances, even outside the Shiverpeaks, much like Mordremoth did with Scarlet?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You see, Konig, this is why I don't like airing my opinions on this forum. You're a pessimist. I'll stick to my side of the sandpit. You stick to yours.

    Nothing I said was pessimistic but okay, you go and be overly sensitive to people disagreeing with you or clarifying something you missed.

    It's a fact that Kralkatorrik isn't an Elder Dragon of Time, because we were given his canonical domains recently, and they are Crystal and Fury. Like or dislike the revelation, that revelation is canon. I know I dislike some canon (and voice such dislike when I feel it doesn't make logical sense), but don't complain that others tell you that your theories breaks established canon lore.

    If you're more interested in breaking canon with stories, then you're more than welcome to write your fan-fiction, but either denote it as such, or use the fan fiction forum.

    Really the only established "Canon lore" is that Taimi thinks these are helpful classifications of the dragons' magic. The Asura may be smart, but they're just trying to figure this out like the rest of us.

    At this point I prefer to think of Taimi's classifications as something like a very early periodic table. Maybe onto something, but possibly too clever by half and full of red herrings.

    The whole domains thing is not coming from the asura, let alone Taimi specifically. Taimi may have been used to expose us to it (in the most recent and expanded form), but this comes from the actual magic the Elder Dragons themselves use, as observed by: the Durmand Priory, Vigil, Order of Whispers, asura, dwarves, norn, charr, jotun, Forgotten, Six Gods, and more. This is 3,000+ years of recorded knowledge for their domains.

    If anything is comparable to the "early periodic table" for these, it'd probably be the Tome of Rubicon - an ancient dwarven text that was the Priory's original knowledge base for the Elder Dragons, before the Pact's formation made observing dragon minions an easier task, and before they uncovered the Tome of the Five True Gods that was even more detailed and less rewritten over centuries. In other words, it'd be the "what we know" from the personal story, the lines that call them mindless forces of nature, etc. And while I wouldn't say what's known by Tyrians (including Taimi) now is completely accurate, the domains of the Elder Dragons seems to be one of the most easily observed aspects (the first domain certainly is, at least, since that's what their corruption takes physical form as - fire, ice, plant, undeath, and crystal).

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Aurene's resurrection shook my confidence in the studio.

    Did you think the giant neon sign saying "SHE HAS JOKO'S MAGIC" they had been holding up for six months was too obvious?

    Why did Aurene have to die? Do dragons hate mortality? What's the deal there? I feel like Joko is a big piece of the puzzle.

    She has immortality magic :) Can we not use term "joko's magic" anymore - it sounds pathetic XD

    Technically it's "lich magic". Or to be more precise, "soul binding magic".

    How she has it still makes no sense given that Elder Dragons are not capable of using any form of magic they consume, only the magic of beings on cosmic scales, and Joko was no cosmic being like gods and Elder Dragons.

    Doesn't that imply there is more to Joko than we realised? The dude was around before Nightfall. It's possible he has divine magic.
    I mean he can even be channeled as one would Balthazar.

    The problem with Joko and by extention Liches as i've brough up before is that Anet does not have clear lore surrounding them.. there is actually extremely little to go on.
    Joko is actually the worst offender of this since his origins state that he was once mortal and then at some point in time stuff happened and then he was an immortal Lich..
    There's some reference to a Djinn in there but there is so little information in Guildwars to define Liches that we have no idea how they come to be.. all we do know is that they are typically powerful Necromancers who somehow achieve immortality via Lichdom through the craft.

    Lich magic.. the possible role of Phylacteries.. none of this is clearly defined in Gw2 and with Aurine gaining resurrection powers by eating a Lich this is a mess that the writers really need to clear up at some point otherwise that whole plot point is really just an extremely poor cop-out of writing and the game deserves better than that.

    Aurine right now appears to be the Superman of Tyria.. she's all powerful.. unstoppable and can't be killed.. and that doesn't make her interesting anymore.. it makes her a "Screw you I win" card.. and that's dull.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poormany.4507 said:

    By the time Kralk himself was slain at Dragonfall, there's yet another suggestion in Tom's reply that Aurene may not have been able to absorb all of his magic despite taking it in at ground zero. Perhaps this was because Aurene was still relatively juvenile in size and experience and snacking on Kralk's magic would be a bigger undertaking than taking on Joko.

    Jormag getting Kralk magic is also suggested by the Icebrood Saga mini from the promo (the icebrood with purple Kralk-like energy instead of the Vine-touched energy we saw in LWS3)

    Maybe we're seeing Mordremoth's mind energy being used already, based on the Suspicious Travelers and Bangar, to telepathically send thoughts/speech longer distances, even outside the Shiverpeaks, much like Mordremoth did with Scarlet?

    Nah Jormag has always been severely deceptive and suggestive..
    Jormag doesn't seem to corrupt it's minions with brute force like the other Dragons.. Jormag seduces it's minions and they follow it willingly, hence the Sons of Svanir.
    Then it corrupts them, often with their consent.

    Mordremoths power over mind only really applied to it's minions.. it was able to communicate with other races but it wasn't able to dominate them the same way as it did with Sylvari.

    I'm not sure if any of Kralk's magic will get into the other dragons.. unlike Zhaitan and Mordremoth there was as Rytlock put it "no boom" his magic didn't seem to explode from him like theirs did so it's assumed that after defeating his heart Aurine pretty much took all of it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Lich magic.. the possible role of Phylacteries.. none of this is clearly defined in Gw2 and with Aurine gaining resurrection powers by eating a Lich this is a mess that the writers really need to clear up at some point otherwise that whole plot point is really just an extremely poor cop-out of writing and the game deserves better than that.

    To note: while phylacteries do exist in Tyria, they appear unrelated to lichdom in the D&D sense, and instead appear to adhere more closely to the original meaning of the word, which while butchery context, is effective a container for holy relics/writings. Though in the case of Tyria, phylacteries appear to be rings and amulets, and do seem associated with the dead/undead in general.

    Liches in GW do not have their souls bound to some random object of their choice, but instead the soul is bound to their body in a way that prevents it from "disconnecting" as it would in normal death.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not sure if any of Kralk's magic will get into the other dragons.. unlike Zhaitan and Mordremoth there was as Rytlock put it "no boom" his magic didn't seem to explode from him like theirs did so it's assumed that after defeating his heart Aurine pretty much took all of it.

    In the August Narrative Q&A, a dev suggested pretty heavily that the other Elder Dragons did get some of Kralkatorrik's magic, despite the "no boom".

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  • Taylan.2187Taylan.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    Rest of GW2:

    Aurene becomes the deus ex machina overpowered prismatic benevolent elder dragon who contains all of the magic.

    GW3:

    They pull some Tal-Rasha kind of tragedy where Aurene is found to have become some terribly tortured soul slowly going batshit crazy from all the magic, becoming a much bigger danger than any other elder dragon has ever been.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, tangential question here, but... we have been told that Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses are each other's energy. If we kill Jormag, and some of his energy goes flying off to Primordus, would that make Primordus stronger or weaker? I mean, he would take in Jormag's energy, and possibly some of his powers, but those powers are his own weakness, so would having them weaken him even though he now has more power?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So, tangential question here, but... we have been told that Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses are each other's energy. If we kill Jormag, and some of his energy goes flying off to Primordus, would that make Primordus stronger or weaker? I mean, he would take in Jormag's energy, and possibly some of his powers, but those powers are his own weakness, so would having them weaken him even though he now has more power?

    They are not each other's weakness, just vulnerable to a similar kind of magic.

    For example Jormag is also vulnerable to the enchanted fire bow which presumably is somewhere close to Primordus in regards to fire magic, and it can also be presumed that Primordus is weak to very strong types of ice magic even if it doesn't come from another dragon. Its possible that absorbing the other's power would cause them torment but also render then immune to that weakness.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So, tangential question here, but... we have been told that Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses are each other's energy. If we kill Jormag, and some of his energy goes flying off to Primordus, would that make Primordus stronger or weaker? I mean, he would take in Jormag's energy, and possibly some of his powers, but those powers are his own weakness, so would having them weaken him even though he now has more power?

    This is really hard to say, for two reasons beyond the "we haven't been told" scope:

    1. As shown during S3E3, Jormag isn't weak specifically to Primordus' energy, but all powerful fire magic. Braham's bow (and Aesgir's own weapons) empowered by the ancient jotun scroll have unclear origins, but the kodan use the Spirit of Fire to fight against Jormag's forces with efficiency, indicating that any sufficialy powerful flame will be Jormag's weakness as much as Primordus' energy is (even Sohothin or Magdaer). This means the inverse is likely the case as well - that Primordus isn't weak specifically to Jormag's energy, but to "powerful ice magic". This is actually hinted with the stone dwarves - they're more than stone, they're cold stone, and in GW1 they had a subtle frosty aura about them. When Jormag attacks in Bitterfrost Frontier, Jormag's minions don't try to consume that fire magic, but snuff it out - so it's possible that consuming one's weakness does indeed weaken them (that, or Jormag doesn't want to take a chance), thus if we follow this train of thought, were Primordus to eat Jormag's magic, it'd be harmful.
    2. Inversely, however, based on the Unstable Abomination in S3E3, and some ambient dialogue in S3E6, Zhaitan and Mordremoth were also opposites. This calls into question the entire "Primordus and Jormag are each others' unique weaknesses" and introduces the possibility that the Elder Dragons were formed in pairs of opposites (meaning Kralkatorrik/Aurene's opposite will be the DSD and vice versa. Thing is here, Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic and became stronger, so if this is the case, then Primordus eating Jormag's magic will make him stronger, not weaker, but Primordus would have some other - still unknown - weakness that we'd exploit (Jormag too).

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Lich magic.. the possible role of Phylacteries.. none of this is clearly defined in Gw2 and with Aurine gaining resurrection powers by eating a Lich this is a mess that the writers really need to clear up at some point otherwise that whole plot point is really just an extremely poor cop-out of writing and the game deserves better than that.

    To note: while phylacteries do exist in Tyria, they appear unrelated to lichdom in the D&D sense, and instead appear to adhere more closely to the original meaning of the word, which while butchery context, is effective a container for holy relics/writings. Though in the case of Tyria, phylacteries appear to be rings and amulets, and do seem associated with the dead/undead in general.

    Liches in GW do not have their souls bound to some random object of their choice, but instead the soul is bound to their body in a way that prevents it from "disconnecting" as it would in normal death.

    Yeah we've had that discussion bud :)
    It's still unclear though specially because of items like Khilbrons Phylactery existing in the game and of course the void of information regarding how one becomes a Lich in this universe.

    Another convoluted discussion has been going off platform about how Signets are defined in Guildwars which is another subject that was too unclear to avoid an argument lol
    Some people said rings, some said tablets and some accepted both..
    I wasn't directly involved in the discussion myself but I talked about it at length with my partner who was involved when she wanted my opinion on the matter.
    I suggested the signet is neither ring or tablet but rather the magical symbol which could be scribed onto a ring or tablet or in theory anything really much like a rune.
    We reached out to Anet as well because this just wasn't clear in the lore and got a response that more or less said the same thing I suggested about the symbols/spells.
    I might be able to quote the response word for word later if my partner still has access to it.

    I don't know if I can talk about why that signet discussion happened though.. so to play it safe I'll keep my trap shut on that for now lol

    I do really hope Anet flesh's out the lore around Lich's in Gw2 at some point though, it's one of the most neglected lore areas of this world and since we got a major character directly involved with this kind of power now it's important that we get some answers on how.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not sure if any of Kralk's magic will get into the other dragons.. unlike Zhaitan and Mordremoth there was as Rytlock put it "no boom" his magic didn't seem to explode from him like theirs did so it's assumed that after defeating his heart Aurine pretty much took all of it.

    In the August Narrative Q&A, a dev suggested pretty heavily that the other Elder Dragons did get some of Kralkatorrik's magic, despite the "no boom".

    Fair enough then :)
    That'll make things a bit more interesting at least ^^

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So, tangential question here, but... we have been told that Jormag and Primordus's weaknesses are each other's energy. If we kill Jormag, and some of his energy goes flying off to Primordus, would that make Primordus stronger or weaker? I mean, he would take in Jormag's energy, and possibly some of his powers, but those powers are his own weakness, so would having them weaken him even though he now has more power?

    This is really hard to say, for two reasons beyond the "we haven't been told" scope:

    1. Inversely, however, based on the Unstable Abomination in S3E3, and some ambient dialogue in S3E6, Zhaitan and Mordremoth were also opposites. This calls into question the entire "Primordus and Jormag are each others' unique weaknesses" and introduces the possibility that the Elder Dragons were formed in pairs of opposites (meaning Kralkatorrik/Aurene's opposite will be the DSD and vice versa. Thing is here, Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic and became stronger, so if this is the case, then Primordus eating Jormag's magic will make him stronger, not weaker, but Primordus would have some other - still unknown - weakness that we'd exploit (Jormag too).

    I think it's more that way..

    Primordus might now be weak to Jormag's ice magic but if he absorbed the spectrum from Jormag's death then he may potentially become both a Fire and Ice dragon a living contradiction eliminiting his weakness to Ice and not gaining a weakness to fire.

    If this one dragon to rule them all theory that people have about Aurine is where this story is going eventually then I guess it's absolutely without doubt clear that the last dragon we destroy (probably Primordus) will be in every way her equal but opposite.
    2 Dragons, one good one evil but both having access to every spectrum.. the only difference being Primordus natural affinity for fire and Aurine inheriting that power from the God of Fire and War.

    Might also account the lich magic in there too but maybe not.. dragons consume magic after all so if Aurine in theory could kill Joko dead dead by consuming him then another Elder Dragon could in theory do the same to Aurine..
    I hope that's the case since her immortality thing makes her a cheap I win tactic at the moment so if the other dragons are not even a threat to her then it cheapens them and everything they represent.
    However if they are the only thing's in the game right now that can make her dead dead then they remain the biggest threats in this world.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah we've had that discussion bud :)
    It's still unclear though specially because of items like Khilbrons Phylactery existing in the game and of course the void of information regarding how one becomes a Lich in this universe.

    I fail to see how it's unclear about phylacteries. Sure, they added their existence in GW2, but the fact that Khilbron and Joko both died without destroying one, and a bunch of non-liches have one, is pretty indicative that they're unrelated to lichdom.

    Just because we don't have a statement saying "this is how it's different from your archetypal setting" doesn't make something unclear.

    Another convoluted discussion has been going off platform about how Signets are defined in Guildwars which is another subject that was too unclear to avoid an argument lol
    Some people said rings, some said tablets and some accepted both..
    I wasn't directly involved in the discussion myself but I talked about it at length with my partner who was involved when she wanted my opinion on the matter.
    I suggested the signet is neither ring or tablet but rather the magical symbol which could be scribed onto a ring or tablet or in theory anything really much like a rune.
    We reached out to Anet as well because this just wasn't clear in the lore and got a response that more or less said the same thing I suggested about the symbols/spells.
    I might be able to quote the response word for word later if my partner still has access to it.

    I don't know if I can talk about why that signet discussion happened though.. so to play it safe I'll keep my trap shut on that for now lol

    Not very convoluted either, tbh. There's multiple direct statements to signets being called rings from both games. From GW1:

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Panic/Skill_history
    Elite Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are Hexed with Panic for 10...22...25 seconds. While Hexed, they suffer Energy degeneration of 2 and take 10...68...82 damage whenever they use a Signet ring.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ignorance/Skill_history
    Hex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, target foe cannot use Signet rings.
    It's also alluded to in the boss "Gao Han of the Rings" who has mostly signet skills equipped.
    And then lastly, the quest "Malaquire's Test" mentions a ring when talking about using the Signet of Capture:
    "Of course, there was a small chance that you might combust when the ring absorbed the...but this is a technical detail that I wouldn't want to bore you with."

    From GW2, there's the King's Sight skill from Be My Guest, which is similarly called a signet ring. Though what's curious there is that Braham says that signet rings are ancient magic unused anymore, while signets are still fairly active skills.

    Point being, at some point in time (including GW1's timeframe), without a doubt, signets were on rings. Whether they were only on rings is seemingly left unclear, but I've never seen mention of "signet tablets" so I'd love to see a link to such. Wouldn't mind seeing that response either, since that would be worth documenting on the wiki.

    I do really hope Anet flesh's out the lore around Lich's in Gw2 at some point though, it's one of the most neglected lore areas of this world and since we got a major character directly involved with this kind of power now it's important that we get some answers on how.

    While it would be nice, I don't think it's necessary or important to know the "how" of things working, so much as the fact they do. Sometimes over-explaining things can be a hindrance rather than a boon to world building (see: midichlorians).

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah we've had that discussion bud :)
    It's still unclear though specially because of items like Khilbrons Phylactery existing in the game and of course the void of information regarding how one becomes a Lich in this universe.

    I fail to see how it's unclear about phylacteries. Sure, they added their existence in GW2, but the fact that Khilbron and Joko both died without destroying one, and a bunch of non-liches have one, is pretty indicative that they're unrelated to lichdom.

    Just because we don't have a statement saying "this is how it's different from your archetypal setting" doesn't make something unclear.

    Because as I mentioned in the past discussion certen concepts in in Gw2 have multiple different uses behind them.. having non lich phylacteries in the game does not invalidate the other phylactery concept that is related to lichs and that is also noted in the game as well.

    Both Khilbron and Joko did die without the destruction of a phylactery but both of them also died under very specific circumstances in the presence of extremely powerful objects that absorb magic.
    Joko was eaten by Aurine after being beaten/killed in battle (his magic and soul consumed by a Dragon) and Khilbron was finally killed for good on top of a bloodstone after being slain multiple times. (again his soul and magic being consumed by a bloodstone)

    If Lich's don't have phylacteries in this universe then there wouldn't be a ring named as such in the game, it would just be a ring.
    The use of the world phylactery rather than ring and the fact that it's owner was a lich strongly implies that the ring held said lich's soul but the lack of confirmation on that is why this lore is unclear and why these discussions even took place in the first place.
    It's also to this day unclear how Khilbron and Joko even became Lich's in the first place but it's suggested that Abaddon was responsible for Khilbron though whether he became one through Abaddons magic or became one by choice using knowledge Abaddon bestowed on him (which makes more sense due to the ring existing) is left open for speculation and theories.

    Another convoluted discussion has been going off platform about how Signets are defined in Guildwars which is another subject that was too unclear to avoid an argument lol
    Some people said rings, some said tablets and some accepted both..
    I wasn't directly involved in the discussion myself but I talked about it at length with my partner who was involved when she wanted my opinion on the matter.
    I suggested the signet is neither ring or tablet but rather the magical symbol which could be scribed onto a ring or tablet or in theory anything really much like a rune.
    We reached out to Anet as well because this just wasn't clear in the lore and got a response that more or less said the same thing I suggested about the symbols/spells.
    I might be able to quote the response word for word later if my partner still has access to it.

    I don't know if I can talk about why that signet discussion happened though.. so to play it safe I'll keep my trap shut on that for now lol

    Not very convoluted either, tbh. There's multiple direct statements to signets being called rings from both games. From GW1:

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Panic/Skill_history
    Elite Hex Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are Hexed with Panic for 10...22...25 seconds. While Hexed, they suffer Energy degeneration of 2 and take 10...68...82 damage whenever they use a Signet ring.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ignorance/Skill_history
    Hex Spell. For 8...18...20 seconds, target foe cannot use Signet rings.
    It's also alluded to in the boss "Gao Han of the Rings" who has mostly signet skills equipped.
    And then lastly, the quest "Malaquire's Test" mentions a ring when talking about using the Signet of Capture:
    "Of course, there was a small chance that you might combust when the ring absorbed the...but this is a technical detail that I wouldn't want to bore you with."

    From GW2, there's the King's Sight skill from Be My Guest, which is similarly called a signet ring. Though what's curious there is that Braham says that signet rings are ancient magic unused anymore, while signets are still fairly active skills.

    Point being, at some point in time (including GW1's timeframe), without a doubt, signets were on rings. Whether they were only on rings is seemingly left unclear, but I've never seen mention of "signet tablets" so I'd love to see a link to such. Wouldn't mind seeing that response either, since that would be worth documenting on the wiki.

    Yeah there were strong indications many signets at least in Gw1's timeframe were typically rings and the term signet ring is what made many of the arguments in the discussion lead people to side with the ring argument.

    Gw2 brought up more arguments due to rings being a viable equipment thing and that people only had access to 2 of them yet most classes in the game still used signets as a type of skill.. there are also equipable signet rings in Gw2 as well and the fact that equipping those rings does not grant you skills associated to those signets was also brought up.

    This is what lead me to the theory that the "signet" is not the ring itself but rather the actual symbol and the spell associated to it.. and its the symbol itself which is what transcends into both games.
    The ring then being just a common item that signets were often inscribed to.. but the symbol and the magic that it relates to could be inscribed to just about anything.. making them very similar to runes and sigils in that regard which can be scribed onto stones, tablets, rings etc as well.
    The only real difference between them being how they function.. Signets being spells that enhance the users abilities/stats etc, Runes being magical enhancements to armour and Sigils doing exactly the same as Runes only for weapons instead.
    Their basic concept though is the same.. they're all just symbols with different names.

    I don't have a direct link to the quote as it was my wife who asked it but this is a screen cap of the response she got.
    She edited her name and the GM's name out though, I don't think she needed to edit the GM's name out but I can probably get it if it's important.
    https://imgur.com/HpFvMas

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If Lich's don't have phylacteries in this universe then there wouldn't be a ring named as such in the game, it would just be a ring.
    The use of the world phylactery rather than ring and the fact that it's owner was a lich strongly implies that the ring held said lich's soul but the lack of confirmation on that is why this lore is unclear and why these discussions even took place in the first place.

    No, it doesn't, on both accounts. The use of the word only showcases that phylacteries are a thing, not that they're specifically the D&D interpretation. Phylacteries exist in DragonAge but don't hold souls; similarly, they're an actual traditional object in reality which, naturally, don't house souls. It's merely a personal interpretation of their existence and connection to undead to mean that they hold the same context.

    The term isn't even ever used in relation to Palawa Joko himself, so we have one instance where it's related to a lich - an instance with practically zero context that was introduced alongside a bunch of easter eggs and nods to GW1 that have zero lore value whatsoever - and another instance where it's completely unrelated to a lich. Out of these two instances, coming to the conclusion "it must function similar to D&D phylacteries" is simply put, an unfounded conclusion.

    And it's more than just Khilbron and Joko who were liches and killed without a phylactery. There's Fendi Nin, Zoldark, the Dragon Liches, and Mazdak the Accursed. And in four out of those cases, the method of death was ultimately the same, though through different means - unbinding the soul from the body. Which should be enough proof that phylacteries have nothing to do with the immortality of liches - at least in the traditional sense of housing their soul.

    Gw2 brought up more arguments due to rings being a viable equipment thing and that people only had access to 2 of them yet most classes in the game still used signets as a type of skill.. there are also equipable signet rings in Gw2 as well and the fact that equipping those rings does not grant you skills associated to those signets was also brought up.

    Ignoring the argument of "it's mechanics", obviously not all rings would be signet rings, and as shown by the Signet of Capture and Resurrection Signets in GW1, they can lose their power over time. I've always interpreted the ascended signet rings as exactly that - signet rings that have lost their power over time. And neither case really supports for or against modern signets being rings or not (though it is further proof that in the past they were).

    I don't have a direct link to the quote as it was my wife who asked it but this is a screen cap of the response she got.
    She edited her name and the GM's name out though, I don't think she needed to edit the GM's name out but I can probably get it if it's important.
    https://imgur.com/HpFvMas

    That screenshot's sufficient, though a name would be ideal. It's hard to see Anet's support as valid lore source though, since they don't tend to deal with the lore.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If Lich's don't have phylacteries in this universe then there wouldn't be a ring named as such in the game, it would just be a ring.
    The use of the world phylactery rather than ring and the fact that it's owner was a lich strongly implies that the ring held said lich's soul but the lack of confirmation on that is why this lore is unclear and why these discussions even took place in the first place.

    No, it doesn't, on both accounts. The use of the word only showcases that phylacteries are a thing, not that they're specifically the D&D interpretation. Phylacteries exist in DragonAge but don't hold souls; similarly, they're an actual traditional object in reality which, naturally, don't house souls. It's merely a personal interpretation of their existence and connection to undead to mean that they hold the same context.

    The term isn't even ever used in relation to Palawa Joko himself, so we have one instance where it's related to a lich - an instance with practically zero context that was introduced alongside a bunch of easter eggs and nods to GW1 that have zero lore value whatsoever - and another instance where it's completely unrelated to a lich. Out of these two instances, coming to the conclusion "it must function similar to D&D phylacteries" is simply put, an unfounded conclusion.

    And it's more than just Khilbron and Joko who were liches and killed without a phylactery. There's Fendi Nin, Zoldark, the Dragon Liches, and Mazdak the Accursed. And in four out of those cases, the method of death was ultimately the same, though through different means - unbinding the soul from the body. Which should be enough proof that phylacteries have nothing to do with the immortality of liches - at least in the traditional sense of housing their soul.

    We've gotten really off topic having this discussion again dude. XD

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    I really don't want to kill yet another elder dragon. It's too predictable, too boring.

    Gotta agree it did get old fast.. Prefer they focused on actual Guildwars not Dragons tbh.. The devs go on and on about not wanting to fit the standard fantasy genre then continually throw standard fantasy dragons at us.. very confusing.

    At least another Guildwars would shake up the planet a bit and actually make sense to the games names sake.. we could have Asura, Norn and humans verse Charr and Sylvari etc.. Or have us side with the other 5 or so gods and fight it out to be in control.

  • GW1 had various villains and stuff. That was fun-
    GW2 has just dragon stuff and I got tired by fighting "dragon leg" or "dragon head" for most of the story campaigns.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean they have everything at their disposal. We kill all elder dragons and Aurene consumes their energy becoming the ultimate elder dragon. Then in closing cinematic a hand breaks through her throat and Joko comes from it, Aurene falls dead and Joko consumes all her powers and resurrects her as his awakened minion this time. As it turns out Joko was alive inside her belly and resurrects her at end of LS4 in order for her to kill all Elder dragons so he can then kill her and consume all the power.
    And then we get Guild Wars 3, which takes place in Cantha. Joko rules over Tyria and Elona. We can play as a Canthan, Tyrian, Elonian, Ascalonian, Asura, Tengu, Sylvari, Norn, Charr, Dredge. Those who were stupid enough to flee from Joko's Reign of Eternal Peace found themselves as slaves of Canthan Empire, not Asura though little rats managed to weasel their way out of it by offering their big brain technology to Canthans and are allowed to stay inside their trade posts and districts. Human refugees mostly work as farmers or servants for Canthan run business or Canthan government institutions. Sylvari were expelled south to join Tengu in their concentration camps. Norn, Charr and Dredge the absolute monstrosities they are were sent to work in mines, factories and woods. Each race would have their own completely unique story and racial abilities which would be impactful in WvW. Story could go towards rebellion against Canthan Empire and invasion of Joko or us invading him to retake our homelands.

  • synk.6907synk.6907 Member ✭✭
    edited December 9, 2019

    As I recall, Kralk recognized her as something new. Maybe there will be other dragons like her to take the place of the others.

    Though Tyria may have no way to replace Zhaitan or Mordremoth at this point, with their magics spread everywhere else.

    edit: Oh, right, to the thread title: Yes, I hope she doesn't house it all. Tyria has been shown to be a system more than once. I'd prefer not to have that all be contained in one being.

    have fun and be excellent to one another

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    Well, with the new episode I just realized something.

    Previously after Bangar incapacitates the commander.

    Bangar Ruinbringer: It was always gonna end this way.
    Bangar Ruinbringer: One charr. One dragon. One champion.

    Bangar says this phrase when he is sure he is about the eliminate the crystal dragon's champion.
    This phrase is brought back in the current release.

    With it's re-use as a chapter title in the latest episode, I am going to consider it a very important idea.
    With it's context to commanders seeming demise, I have to also consider taking it more broadly broadly. Meaning one champion across Tyria. Which also makes me realize that 'One dragon' can be read at face value. There is only one dragon champion in Tyria, because there is only one Elder Dragon in Tyria.

    This seems to be Jormags idea conveyed to Bangar. But, if Jormag is entertaining that such an idea is possible, then one could assume Aurene is also be able to do that and are we going to flip Jormag's plan to make Aurene the one dragon as feared?
    How this can be done without destabilizing the balance of magic is yet to be seen.

    I guess, there is one caveat, 'One charr' is a figurative form of speech.
    Meaning all charr acting as one. Following that then. this staement means.
    Elder dragons acting as one. And
    Their champions acting as one.
    Likely meaning Bangar misunderstood the meaning of the phrase before attempting to kill a rival dragon's champion (Egotistical prick recites a phrase like prophecy without realizing what it means, suits him and his current predicament).
    So, Jormag is going to want to ally with Aurene. The six human gods attempt to act together, so maybe the dragons could too.
    Although Braham's prophecy/fate is a bit of a wrench in that plan (might not be that big of a deal in some people's opinions I guess)...

    I am not sure I like the story moving towards either interpretation...
    Of course the phrase could be simply a deception by Jormag along with all of it's other gestures.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    -snip-
    I forgot that line was said by Bangar. I interpreted the title independent from that line before:

    "One Charr" is Bangar, because he only cared about himself, he was "the one charr", which is something Crecia (or was it Rytlock) commented on before.
    "One Dragon" was what left me confused, but within context, I figured it was Jormag, being the one dragon that the one charr and the one champion vied for.
    "One Champion" was Ryland, because Jormag "could not have" (or rather, would not) two champions, and Ryland would become the Champion of Jormag, not Bangar.

    Basically I took that title to hint at the climactic ending of it - that Bangar and Ryland would contest for Jormag's attention, and Ryland would prove victorious. I'd maintain this even with Bangar's use of the phrase, but that Bangar's usage makes the phrase a double-meaning when used in Episode 4's instance title. The title outright referencing the phrase, where Bangar was talking about himself the entire time - one charr, himself; one dragon, his dragon; one champion, himself - to foreshadowing the ending of the instance.

    I don't think the phrase has any real meaning to Jormag, though. Jormag wants to preserve Tyria - this much as been confirmed by devs, even if Jormag's method isn't going to be "good" in our views - and Jormag should outright know that Tyria cannot survive without 4+ Elder Dragons living. So I don't expect Jormag to (currently) want to kill off Aurene, or Primordus and the DSD either. Not unless it can create scions and establish replacements.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    It is still interesting that, in Bangar's context, he presents it is evidence that he was destined to kill Aurene's champion. And it is a bit funny that 'One charr' on it's own, is used in the figurative sense to celebrate the charr in the prologue.
    I guess its use in multiple ways can highlight how words can change their meaning based on how it is read. Some forms of persuasion certainly leverage that.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Aurene's resurrection shook my confidence in the studio.

    Did you think the giant neon sign saying "SHE HAS JOKO'S MAGIC" they had been holding up for six months was too obvious?

    Why did Aurene have to die? Do dragons hate mortality? What's the deal there? I feel like Joko is a big piece of the puzzle.

    Well we haven't seen the creation/rise of any elder dragons thus far. We don't know how the others came to be or if they just always were. Perhaps consuming this specific soul-binding/immortality/whatever you want to call it magic is what was required to give her the ability to ascend? Sure dragons can naturally consume magic, but would enough cause them to eventually go crazy like Kralk or like the multiple creatures that went crazy from bloodstone magic overload?

    Is Aurene different because she wasn't born an elder dragon and already connected to the All and thus presumably tied to one aspect of it like the others? Is that what gives her the edge to handle all of these different magics easier than the others?

    If the other elder dragons ascended similarly were they gifted their positions by predecessors? Were they similar to Aurene and consumed something else immortal, whether it be some ancient and long dead pantheon of gods?

    Either way, in one of the guild chats they hinted that Aurene may run into the same issue that Kralk had in terms of being tormented by conflicting magics. It was subtle but I feel like it was a pretty strong indication that having her take the place of all elder dragons wasn't really the end game. Sure, the prophecy with Kralk and Aurene being the savior elder dragon for all of the races indicates otherwise, but that didn't necessarily mean that the others weren't existent. They just may not have as much interaction with mankind as humans do and she may act as more of a governing force for the others to ensure the safety of the races of Tyria.

    I'm also fairly certain that this season will not end with us killing Jormag. I'm sure Jormag has an ulterior motive, but I don't think it's going to be resolved with us killing it.

    Precedent would imply that we will, but if you look at each plot development of elder dragons they all seem to take a different approach or develop them as an entity more.

    Zhaitan was just a dominating evil.
    Mordremoth was evil but we started to learn a bit more about how elder dragons work.
    Kralk was evil but was tormented and we ventured into whatever plane he's connected to inside of him in an attempt to free him and help ascend Aurene.
    Who knows what's next on the current plot. We haven't pacified/cured any elder dragons of some presumed torment they may be suffering from similar to Kralk.

    The only one I can see not being able to be developed that strongly would be Primordus because he's always just seemed like a relatively ambivalent, yet destructive, force of nature. I don't really see him caring about bargaining with anyone but both he and the deep sea dragon have very little interaction with us as we don't really venture underground or deep in the ocean.

    Who knows. I find it interesting that the last remaining ones are Primordus - Fire, Jormag - Ice, and DSD - Water.
    Jormag and Primordus' magics cancel each other out, but what does that mean for the DSD assuming one wants domination?

    If we help kill Primordus who would have an upper hand in a battle between Jormag and DSD with them both being water based entities? Would DSD have an advantage over Jormag as ice is made from water? Or would Jormag have an advantage as ice can solidify water?

    Honestly Primordus and DSD seem like they would cancel each other out too. I mean, water + fire = steam/smoke right. They'd essentially cancel each other out.

    With ice and fire, it feels a bit more complicated. You can add more to the fire and melt the ice to steam, or you can add more to the ice add moisture to the air and smother the flame. I know that's kind of an abstract generalization, but I'm just curious how that would all work out.

  • Altion.9576Altion.9576 Member ✭✭✭

    I hope not, that would be lame, but Aurene could be the mother of a new generation of Dragons of balance perhaps?

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One dragon to rule them all

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Sznurek.8791 said:

    I am not trying to attack or anything but just out of curiosity. How that main plotline resolution can be interesting?

    It would be a really obvious one without twists and you could easily predict much before the story ends(it's a little bit like knowing the ending in the middle of a movie).
    It really throws away all set ups of mistakes and future destruction because of our actions.(All Joko dialogue(which was great btw.) would be thrown out of a window, all theme of destruction caused by killing dragons).
    It would be a little bit like, well, a story for children where after doing something really stupid nothing really happens because plot must have a happy ending.

    It would be a repeat of Mordremoth plot where we were going after him without and real plan and just when we met him some character(Traeharne if I remember correctly) told us his weakens which for our current situation was perfect(just standing before an allay directly connected to his mind). Going without any plan at random(especially if playing with giant forces(like dragons, gods etc.) and always being unrealistically lucky(because some plot device shows just when we need it) isn't good writing.

    That is pretty much exactly what happened in PoF. We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword. I don't really see a motivation for the writers to change course.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    That is pretty much exactly what happened in PoF. We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword. I don't really see a motivation for the writers to change course.

    Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

    We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

    We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

    Ah yes, I forgot the part where we were killed by Balthazar's entire army instead of specifically by Balthazar in a small-scale combat scenario. Good job!
    And I fondly recall burying Balthazar in a mountain of awakened instead of fighting him one-on-one again with a weapon handed to us at the start of the battle. Yes. That would have been a similar scenario. I'm glad that never happened.

    All sarcasm aside, we picked up an army on the way to Mordymord. They're called the Pact. (this is the same Pact from the Living story) If you've been to Maguuma you can take time rallying them to your cause and fighting with them against the Dragon's army.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    I'm pretty glad Aurene has grown.

    But she has grown way too fast, way too soon.
    Now I just want her to die before she is used as a literal Deus Ex Machina.

    Imagine if she absorbs Jormag and Jormag's consciousness destroys her own, and now Jormag is in control of Aurene's body with the power of 4 dragons and a god inside them.

    That would be a great plot twist I think.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Sznurek.8791 said:
    I really think this would be a boring and bad ending. It would be again just luck that our dragon is the ultimate plot device(a magical sponge which is better sponge than all other 6 elder dragons while not becoming corrupted).

    I think the storyline right now is pointing towards great mistakes we have made killing the dragons and destroying the balance between them(and I think it's a really nice plot). But if all of this is just to be solved by Aurene eating magic of all other dragons well that would be really disappointing.
    I really think the story with replacing each elder dragon is much more intriguing(what beings will replace them, will we find other dragons? kunavang, other ED children, gods, spirits, bring back titans, or maybe don't replace some of them, etc.) and can setup many more future surprises for the universe(replacing dragon with other being which isn't "good" because we have to do it, like deal with Joko in gw1).

    I am afraid of this because with the last magazine about Icebrood saga and war eternal there are some suggestion this will happen(prismatic dragon, Kralkatorrik talk with Aurene).

    How many good fantasy and sci fi shows have you seen? Its all about the compelling conflict not the destination. Whether or not Aurene supersedes all the other dragons or not is irrelevant because there will always be another conflict, another baddie, another mission. Its an MMO after all. We still have massive amounts of lore to explore and even in other worlds and the mists. We COULD catch up to the Human Gods who left Tyria. We could leave Tyria entirely and go to other places. Remember shattered observatory and those extradimensional beings? Where did they come from and also remember Kralk's "mother." Who the heck is that?! So don't fret too much. Good writers always think 12 steps ahead and if they didn't good writers can logically come up with the next compelling plotline.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    Hi Sznurek.8791! I'm in full agreement with you. Simply having Aurene replace all of the Elder Dragons is boring. However, the big question is whether she even can and why six Elder Dragons emerged in the first place? Look at all of the examples of paradigms embracing the idea of six, distinct colors, elements, threads, all of which suggest that separating, rather than combining, magic is the safest way to practice it. I think that something is coming for the Commander. Maybe Aurene turns on us when the growing pains of assuming the mantle of Elder Dragon at such a young age cause her to viciously and rabidly destroy anything and everything that moves. Maybe something else? I don't think that Aurene is the final answer, just another piece of the puzzle.

    Sounds like we need more Aurene's....maybe even Aurene can birth scions of her own....

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

    I could see it as a possibility. Diving into replacing elder dragons with other entities.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

    I could see it as a possibility. Diving into replacing elder dragons with other entities.

    Sadizi in PoF also stated entities as well in the glint legacy cinematic, rather then specifically dragons.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

    The Pale Tree and the Spirits would make for a rather logical dragon replacements in the narrative.
    -Aurene replaces Kralk
    -The Spirits replace Jormag
    -The Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth
    -Have Kuunavang replace Bubbles
    Zhaitan and Primordus can go shove it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Lets ignore the fact we killed Iberu, used magic to disguise ourselves as him, used this guide to get Joko's various warmasters on our side, and built an army to fight Balthazar's army so we could stop him.

    We didn't just waltz up to Balthazar for round 2 without a plan to counter his forces.

    Ah yes, I forgot the part where we were killed by Balthazar's entire army instead of specifically by Balthazar in a small-scale combat scenario. Good job!
    And I fondly recall burying Balthazar in a mountain of awakened instead of fighting him one-on-one again with a weapon handed to us at the start of the battle. Yes. That would have been a similar scenario. I'm glad that never happened.

    All sarcasm aside, we picked up an army on the way to Mordymord. They're called the Pact. (this is the same Pact from the Living story) If you've been to Maguuma you can take time rallying them to your cause and fighting with them against the Dragon's army.

    I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

    But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • What if Glint was using us all along to usurp the elder Dragons and insert her scion and therefore family line as the ultimate power in the universe, that once Aurene has absorbed enough magic, she just consumes us all in a crystalline apocalypse and the screen fades to black?

    I mean, that's what David Benioff and D. B. Weiss would do.

  • @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:
    What if Glint was using us all along to usurp the elder Dragons and insert her scion and therefore family line as the ultimate power in the universe, that once Aurene has absorbed enough magic, she just consumes us all in a crystalline apocalypse and the screen fades to black?

    I mean, that's what David Benioff and D. B. Weiss would do.

    Nah, D&D would have Dragon's Watch just "kinda forget" that Jormag woke up when Episode 5 comes around. Then they'll bring in Zhaitan to save the day because it fell into the misty ground and we never saw people check his pulse so it wasn't actually dead, but because everyone kinda forgot that it was evil Zhaitan ends up betraying everyone when folks believe it's an ally now.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

    But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

    Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Wonder if the Spirits of the Wild could come into play with Jormag’s energy. They seem to talk about how the spirts have an endless supply of magic. Then like Aurene and potentially the Pale Tree with the Sylvari, share the magic with the Norn.

    The Pale Tree and the Spirits would make for a rather logical dragon replacements in the narrative.
    -Aurene replaces Kralk
    -The Spirits replace Jormag
    -The Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth
    -Have Kuunavang replace Bubbles
    Zhaitan and Primordus can go shove it.

    If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

    The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

    Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

    The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

    Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

    I suppose that just leaves Glint, who’s corpse is still intact.

  • @Finalfreefall.8247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

    But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

    Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

    To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they do make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have time for the plan.

    The Commander has two core character traits:

    • Improvisation
    • Teamwork

    When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

    I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and kitten at other things, and that's how everyone is.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

    The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

    Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

    To be fair though, the Crystal Dragon family are pretty much crystal ("rocks") and magic too.

    But yeah, I doubt Aurene will be Death-Branding Glint or Vlast. Firstly because it'd probably be disrespectful, secondly because their souls are already off in the Mists and corrupting corpses != resurrection.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I mean, if you generalize the plot down to the point of "found enemy, tried to fight enemy, had setback, recovered, tried to fight enemy again, succeeded" you're kinda more or less described the Hero's Journey in less words. At that level of generalization, you described every plot with external conflict, not just GW2's expansions.

    But "entering the Maguuma Jungle with a fleet that gets wiped out, then gathering the remnants of that army with some help from locals, locating and securing a dragon egg, seeking out ancient asuran city for means to destroy the Elder Dragon, then chasing down captured allies and happening upon the Elder Dragon's lair and kills it" is very different from "entering the Crystal Dragon alone, meeting a few old friends there, hunting down a rogue god, witnessing an ancient dragon's death, seeking out a god, getting ambushed and killed by rogue god who takes our baby dragon, get resurrected then tricks an army to fight for them as they enter a prepared battle against rogue god beneath the gaze of an Elder Dragon the player must save while also saving, then fighting alongside, out baby dragon".

    Yes. 99% there. The quibbles that I raised with the plot was that "We went after Balthazar with no real plan, died, undied, and just when we went in for round 2 Rytlock handed us his sword"." Which can be summed up as "Stupid Commander, Lucky Commander, Deus Ex Machina". The reasoning behind the army bit was aggravated sarcasm which seems to have sidetracked my point significantly and I apologize for time spent there. I do however, disagree with the Hero's Journey assessment on different grounds though, in that the arc applies to the Commander's entire team rather than the commander specifically.

    To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they do make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have time for the plan.

    The Commander has two core character traits:

    • Improvisation
    • Teamwork

    When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

    I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and kitten at other things, and that's how everyone is.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    If Kralkatorrik can resurrect the Shatterer, which at the end of the meta, Shatterered and use death magic to bring it back. I wonder if Aurene, who still has the death spectrum inside her to resurrect her brother, Vlast and thus give us a dragon that can has death magic spectrum. Then we replace Zhaitan.

    The Shatterer was just an artificial lifeform Kralk made. He could re rebuilt because he was never anything but rocks and magic.

    Vlast, being a living entity, who exploded, is a different situation entirely.

    To be fair though, the Crystal Dragon family are pretty much crystal ("rocks") and magic too.

    But yeah, I doubt Aurene will be Death-Branding Glint or Vlast. Firstly because it'd probably be disrespectful, secondly because their souls are already off in the Mists and corrupting corpses != resurrection.

    Then I guess there won’t be a replacement for Zhaitan, unless Tequatl gets cleansed like Glint...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Then I guess there won’t be a replacement for Zhaitan, unless Tequatl gets cleansed like Glint...

    Tequatl canonically dies in Season 1, as part of Rytlock's tasks for Rox in joining the Stone warband. It was gaining power at that point, and theoretically on the way to replacing Zhaitan when killed for good.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Then I guess there won’t be a replacement for Zhaitan, unless Tequatl gets cleansed like Glint...

    Tequatl canonically dies in Season 1, as part of Rytlock's tasks for Rox in joining the Stone warband. It was gaining power at that point, and theoretically on the way to replacing Zhaitan when killed for good.

    I’m not sure then, another rando undead dragon, which seems kinda silly now that I think about it.

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    To be fair, "winging it" is kinda what the Commander does, because the few times they do make a plan, it doesn't work anyways. They didn't really make a plan for Zhaitan, or Scarlet, or Mordremoth, or Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Usually because whatever plan they made initially failed, or it became such a dire and immediate threat that they don't have time for the plan.

    The Commander has two core character traits:

    • Improvisation
    • Teamwork

    When the Commander doesn't have a team at their back, they fail. When they have a plan made up, the plan somehow gets messed up.

    I'd not really consider this a failing in the storytelling, since it shows that the Commander is great at certain things, and kitten at other things, and that's how everyone is.

    I do disagree with this. The plot comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Being bad at plans is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

  • @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

    The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someone_s_.

    As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

    And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

    The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someones.

    Wait. Renown hearts aren't canon? I'll still disagree on the basis that characters like Quinn exist as mission objectives more than teammates, and that the Destiny's Edge Mentor was more of a social boon, but that's interesting.

    As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

    "Alright mesmer'd team. We've blown up the Kralk draining device and we're going to walk out of here. No need to risk our best shot at Dragon Energy containment in a fight against a combatant that already killed her more prepared, arguably stronger and definitely more experienced sibling."

    Worst scenario: Kralk gets a case of demigodhood. (which I think happened anyway)

    And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

    A really, really, really, dumb idea to let the best dragon containment option stay near the enemy. One lucky shot on Aurene would have been the end of it.

  • @Finalfreefall.8247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

    The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someones.

    Wait. Renown hearts aren't canon? I'll still disagree on the basis that characters like Quinn exist as mission objectives more than teammates, and that the Destiny's Edge Mentor was more of a social boon, but that's interesting.

    Open world treats the PC as a random adventurer, not the Pact Commander. They're canon to lore, but not to the "golden path". Especially pre-HoT.

    And let's be honest, you're splitting hairs if you're trying to twist my statement to mean that the Commander has someone with them every waking moment. Obviously there are times the Commander is working alone against random mooks or puzzles, but yeah, since chapter 1, they always worked with someone in the overarching plot - whether that's a "social boon" or not.

    As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

    "Alright mesmer'd team. We've blown up the Kralk draining device and we're going to walk out of here. No need to risk our best shot at Dragon Energy containment in a fight against a combatant that already killed her more prepared, arguably stronger and definitely more experienced sibling."

    Worst case: Kralk gets a case of demigodhood. (which I think happened anyway)

    I'm not even sure what your argument here even is. When we brought the army with, they couldn't continue through the - unknown to the Commander (hence: plan failed) - terrain warped by Kralkatorrik's branding and nesting, and when we do free Aurene, aka objective #1, Balthazar is right there and we could not risk Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik, aka objective #2, because let's face it, even without the Warbeast and captive Aurene, Balthazar still had a chance to win.

    And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

    A really, really, really, dumb idea to let the best dragon containment option stay near the enemy. One lucky shot on Aurene would have been the end of the world.

    Except that there wasn't really a chance to just run away, what with an Elder Dragon and demigod bearing down on them, and Balthazar wanted Aurene alive.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.