Am I the only one who is afraid the dragon storyline will just end with Aurene replacing 6 other? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Am I the only one who is afraid the dragon storyline will just end with Aurene replacing 6 other?

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  • Finalfreefall.8247Finalfreefall.8247 Member ✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    Disagree. It comes off as rewarding what would by all rights be suicidal decisions with plot armor. Making bad decisions is not the same as being good at improvisation. And the commander did fine without a team early on.

    The Commander always had a partner, or an army. Even in chapter 1, they had their Destiny's Edge mentor figure as a partner, if not others (as well). They didn't have a full guild, but they did have someone or someones.

    Wait. Renown hearts aren't canon? I'll still disagree on the basis that characters like Quinn exist as mission objectives more than teammates, and that the Destiny's Edge Mentor was more of a social boon, but that's interesting.

    Open world treats the PC as a random adventurer, not the Pact Commander. They're canon to lore, but not to the "golden path". Especially pre-HoT.

    And let's be honest, you're splitting hairs if you're trying to twist my statement to mean that the Commander has someone with them every waking moment. Obviously there are times the Commander is working alone against random mooks or puzzles, but yeah, since chapter 1, they always worked with someone in the overarching plot - whether that's a "social boon" or not.

    I apologize then. The renown heart bit was a surprise and it makes sense in retrospect. When I used team I meant it in the sense of an active squad, while (if I'm correct) you mean a wider-ranging group that still works together to accomplish goals. That does fit and I appreciate you expanding the point.

    As for making "bad decisions". Honestly, I wouldn't call act 3 of PoF a "bad idea". The Commander gathered an army to take on Balthazar - doing a 1v1 with the god a second time was not part of the plan - to which, allow me to point back to "when the Commander makes a plan, they don't work and they have to improvise to make it work". The plan was to use the army to fight against Balthazar, not use the army to distract Balthazar's army and then 1v1 him bro in front of another Elder Dragon like their first (third) encounter.

    "Alright mesmer'd team. We've blown up the Kralk draining device and we're going to walk out of here. No need to risk our best shot at Dragon Energy containment in a fight against a combatant that already killed her more prepared, arguably stronger and definitely more experienced sibling."

    Worst case: Kralk gets a case of demigodhood. (which I think happened anyway)

    I'm not even sure what your argument here even is. When we brought the army with, they couldn't continue through the - unknown to the Commander (hence: plan failed) - terrain warped by Kralkatorrik's branding and nesting, and when we do free Aurene, aka objective #1, Balthazar is right there and we could not risk Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik, aka objective #2, because let's face it, even without the Warbeast and captive Aurene, Balthazar still had a chance to win.

    The commander is standing next to a walking disguise generator and has recently used disguises to great effect. Association at a minimum is good reason for deciding to use the chaos and sabotage the enemy. Or any alternate plan besides "charge him".

    Hang on, how would Balthazar have won that fight? If he had weaponry capable of significant range Anmoon wouldn't be a thing.

    And, technically speaking, the Commander didn't 1v1 Balthazar at the end of PoF. They had Aurene to provide protection, which is why Balthazar couldn't kill the Commander again so easily (that, and the element of surprise of "I thought you were dead!").

    A really, really, really, dumb idea to let the best dragon containment option stay near the enemy. One lucky shot on Aurene would have been the end of the world.

    Except that there wasn't really a chance to just run away, what with an Elder Dragon and demigod bearing down on them, and Balthazar wanted Aurene alive.

    Flight capable dragon, and she's fast. Balthazar wanting her alive isn't a guarantee that she would live. Spite or bad luck would have cost Tyria's defenders their best long-term plan.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020

    @Finalfreefall.8247 said:
    The commander is standing next to a walking disguise generator and has recently used disguises to great effect. Association at a minimum is good reason for deciding to use the chaos and sabotage the enemy. Or any alternate plan besides "charge him".

    Hang on, how would Balthazar have won that fight? If he had weaponry capable of significant range Anmoon wouldn't be a thing.

    Kasmeer, Canach, and Rytlock remained with the army. So the Commander wasn't "standing next to a walking disguise generator", nor would such a disguise have had any amount of benefit when Balthazar was bearing down on them, which would have happened regardless since Balthazar was piloting the Warbeast that had Aurene in it. To rescue Aurene, the Commander had to confront Balthazar. There was no other way around it.

    I don't see how Amnoon ties into the fight between Balthazar and Kralkatorrik over the Kodash Bazaar.

    Flight capable dragon, and she's fast. Balthazar wanting her alive isn't a guarantee that she would live. Spite or bad luck would have cost Tyria's defenders their best long-term plan.

    As an infant, she wasn't fast at all. And couldn't carry the Commander away either, which would leave the Commander defenseless and Aurene's fully aware of how that turned out last time. Not to mention that Kralkatorrik was overlooking them and could have shot Aurene out of the sky with far more ease than it did Glint years prior.

    And no, Balthazar wanting Aurene alive wouldn't guarantee her life, but killing Balthazar would.

    Also, "spite or bad luck" would mean Balthazar kills Kralkatorrik which would cost Tyria's defenders everything since the world would die. So the options were: "Stand and fight" or "Run and risk Balthazar destroying Tyria". Since the entire point of the expansion was to stop Balthazar from possibly destroying Tyria, the second isn't really an option.

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  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭

    I personally get the impression that they are going to make our group go with the idea of making Aurene try and filter through all the unstable magic out there, but I think it's going to be yet another plan that backfires.

    The information we have gotten about Aurene's capabilities are all from in-game characters themselves, even the idea of Aurene being able to filter magic unharmed was presented to us as if it was from Taimi and Gorrik's hypothesis on how it worked. Just because that's how they think it works doesn't mean it's how it actually works, Aurene very well could be corrupted.
    To me, one of the final lines Kralk gives at the end of War Eternal also really...stuck with me. (Aside from the random "mother" line that still confuses us all) It feels like foreshadowing when he says "I only hope that you never have to kill what you love." and it's addressed to Aurene iirc. I get the impression Aurene might start having the same issue Kralk did after consuming all sorts of different conflicting magics.

    Either that or I want to see a Kaiju-esque fight between some Elder Dragons if Bubbles or Primordus comes up at the same time as Jormag, let's go.

  • I'm not afraid of it I hope for it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With the prediction, that we deal with Jormag by the end of the saga, with the DSD for the xpac and Primordus for the next LW. It does not leaving a lot of room to find, explain and show the replacements, unless it’s an end of GW2 moment.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the prediction, that we deal with Jormag by the end of the saga, with the DSD for the xpac and Primordus for the next LW. It does not leaving a lot of room to find, explain and show the replacements, unless it’s an end of GW2 moment.

    I personally doubt the DSD will be the focus of the expansion. More likely it will be about the Canthan Empire, the corrupt and draconian Ministry of Purity, and other such problems. Like how PoF wasn't about the dragons, it was about Balthazar. Dragons were involved, but not the main focus.

    And at the rate thing are going. GW2 has like 5 more years before we would reach the end of the Dragon meta-plot.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the prediction, that we deal with Jormag by the end of the saga, with the DSD for the xpac and Primordus for the next LW. It does not leaving a lot of room to find, explain and show the replacements, unless it’s an end of GW2 moment.

    I personally doubt the DSD will be the focus of the expansion. More likely it will be about the Canthan Empire, the corrupt and draconian Ministry of Purity, and other such problems. Like how PoF wasn't about the dragons, it was about Balthazar. Dragons were involved, but not the main focus.

    And at the rate thing are going. GW2 has like 5 more years before we would reach the end of the Dragon meta-plot.

    Possibly longer.
    There is still that thing that Kralkatorrik was saying "mother" when he died. Could possibly mean that there is a force behind the elder dragons we have to encounter in the future. Could possibly be another dragon, who is the mother of all the elder dragons, or possibly a completely different entity.

    But I still think we might fight the deep sea dragon in the Canthan expansion.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the prediction, that we deal with Jormag by the end of the saga, with the DSD for the xpac and Primordus for the next LW. It does not leaving a lot of room to find, explain and show the replacements, unless it’s an end of GW2 moment.

    I personally doubt the DSD will be the focus of the expansion. More likely it will be about the Canthan Empire, the corrupt and draconian Ministry of Purity, and other such problems. Like how PoF wasn't about the dragons, it was about Balthazar. Dragons were involved, but not the main focus.

    And at the rate thing are going. GW2 has like 5 more years before we would reach the end of the Dragon meta-plot.

    Possibly longer.
    There is still that thing that Kralkatorrik was saying "mother" when he died. Could possibly mean that there is a force behind the elder dragons we have to encounter in the future. Could possibly be another dragon, who is the mother of all the elder dragons, or possibly a completely different entity.

    But I still think we might fight the deep sea dragon in the Canthan expansion.

    I’m still hoping to see a new continent, like Sunrise Crest, as there is a trade route to it.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Possibly longer.
    There is still that thing that Kralkatorrik was saying "mother" when he died. Could possibly mean that there is a force behind the elder dragons we have to encounter in the future. Could possibly be another dragon, who is the mother of all the elder dragons, or possibly a completely different entity.

    But I still think we might fight the deep sea dragon in the Canthan expansion.

    I would honestly presume Kralk's mother is dead, and he was just thinking of her as he died. This could tie into Jormag's comments during Icebrood Saga that there was a time BEFORE the cycle of Elder Dragons consuming everything over and over. Kralk's mother possibly being from that era.

    Hell, they could possibly pull a twist where its revealed there is an even LARGER cycle above the Elder Dragon cycle. Where the Elder Dragons are defeated, replaced with a being that is friendly to mortals(like Aurene) that being has children, which each get part of the Elder Dragon aspects, and then those beings get corrupted by the power, and destroy everything over and over until they are defeated, and replaced with a being friendly to mortals. Meaning everything we are doing with Aurene has already happened before the current Elder Dragons came into existence, and we are just caught in an even bigger loop then we realized.

    I also don't think we will fight the Deep Sea dragon in the Cantha expansion because, even if we get 5 maps the size of PoF maps, that would really only cover Shing Jea, and most of the city part of Cantha. If the dragon dies during the expansion, what will the living world saga that expands upon Cantha and takes us to the Echovald/Jade Sea be about? Dealing with the political problems of Cantha first, in the expansion, so we can reset the political status to something more favorable, so we can make allies and gain forces/resources to fight the Elder dragon during the LW Saga makes sense. Similar to what we did in Path of Fire, and the first 3-4 episodes of LWS4 regarding Elona and Joko.

    The Pact was able to deal with Zhaitan because it was right there. Same thing with Mordremoth, but even then we needed help from the Hyleck and Exalted in the region, due to Mordremoth taking down all the airships. But as we saw with Kralk, the Pact really didn't have the means to wage a full scale war, by itself, against Kralk in Elona. Even though many airships had been built in time for War Eternal. Most of the actual ground forces were allies we had made throughout Elona, while the Pact was mostly just proving air support. Cantha is even further away, and its even less likely the Pact would wage such a war by itself against the Deep Sea Dragon in that situation. Now, getting the Canthan Empire, and the Kurzicks/Luxons on our side would be a massive help, but the Canthans are still, as far as we know, ruled over by an oppressive, xenophobic, state. The same state that went full of genocidal purge of all non-humans in the time between GW1 and 2. We would have to deal with that before we could reasonably take on bubbles, even with the Pact's assistance.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I also don't think we will fight the Deep Sea dragon in the Cantha expansion because, even if we get 5 maps the size of PoF maps, that would really only cover Shing Jea, and most of the city part of Cantha. If the dragon dies during the expansion, what will the living world saga that expands upon Cantha and takes us to the Echovald/Jade Sea be about? Dealing with the political problems of Cantha first, in the expansion, so we can reset the political status to something more favorable, so we can make allies and gain forces/resources to fight the Elder dragon during the LW Saga makes sense. Similar to what we did in Path of Fire, and the first 3-4 episodes of LWS4 regarding Elona and Joko.

    The Pact was able to deal with Zhaitan because it was right there. Same thing with Mordremoth, but even then we needed help from the Hyleck and Exalted in the region, due to Mordremoth taking down all the airships. But as we saw with Kralk, the Pact really didn't have the means to wage a full scale war, by itself, against Kralk in Elona. Even though many airships had been built in time for War Eternal, .ost of the actual ground forces were allies we had made throughout Elona, while the Pact was mostly just proving air support. Cantha is even further away, and its even less likely the Pact would wage such a war by itself against the Deep Sea Dragon in that situation. Now, getting the Canthan Empire, and the Kurzicks/Luxons on our side would be a massive help, but the Canthans are still, as far as we know, ruled over by an oppressive, xenophobic, state. The same state that went full of genocidal purge of all non-humans in the time between GW1 and 2. We would have to deal with that before we could reasonably take on bubbles, even with the Pact's assistance.

    The bold is why I don't think the Cantha expansion will be primarily focused on "solving" the political situation of Cantha. It will be a partial highlight for sure, but I don't expect it to be solved in the expansion because it's too much of retreading the same plot. For this reason I do not think that Cantha's government will be a threat to the playerbase.

    The xenophobia records come largely from the tengu, and Cantha were fully open to trade and contact with Kryta until Zhaitan cut them off; with Canthan sailors washing ashore and the Zephyrites (who are multiracial might I add) being welcomed in Cantha, I wouldn't be surprised if ANet does away with the whole "they're xenophobic" spiel and instead turns it into some sort of "tengu-made propaganda" or something.

    After all, if we take Usoku's "kicking non-humans out of Cantha" at a certain point of view, that is to refer to civilized non-humans, that would pretty much just be the ever-hostile naga and maybe wardens, the tenuously-hostile dredge, and the fractured-partially-warring tengu. And if it's just kicking out of the empire, well, there's a lot of neighboring lands that are theoretically ripe for the taking. The Movement never does say whether Usoku used his military on non-humans, just on the Luxons and Kurzicks (though it's likely he did, especially if they resisted; but the dredge were already refugees so if they were told "move over here and we won't bother you", they would probably move; tengu? not likely, until they left for Tyria; wardens? If they survived Urgoz's death, they might not count as "non-humans" since they're supposedly turned humans; naga? they would inhabit the coastlands like they always did, war or no).

    Anyways, tangent aside, I don't think we'll be having a repeat of the PoF/S4 plot, where we spend time chasing after some non-ED threat, go into solving politics, then unite local forces to fight an Elder Dragon. After all, this time around, we have an allied Elder Dragon - and depending on how Icebrood Saga ends, we might have two. That changes things a lot.

    I think the plot will be a) hunting down Jormag if they use IBS as a lead-in instead of its own plot and we're still dealing with Jormag; b) dealing with a newly-ascended Elder Dragon Kuunavang who's gone insane from torment after ascending off of om noming Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic that Aurene no doubt released into the wild (given Jormag's/Drakkar's power boost from Kralk's death, and Jormag's new Mist-hoping abilities); or c) going to dragon land to find new replacements for the DSD and the rest of the active enemy Elder Dragons.

    If A or B is the plot for the expansion, then C will be the plot for Season 6, leading into a fight with the DSD (I feel it'd be all too fitting to make Primordus the last Elder Dragon to be dealt with) that will either be second half of Season 6, or whatever follows.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The bold is why I don't think the Cantha expansion will be primarily focused on "solving" the political situation of Cantha. It will be a partial highlight for sure, but I don't expect it to be solved in the expansion because it's too much of retreading the same plot. For this reason I do not think that Cantha's government will be a threat to the playerbase.

    Ehh. to be fair. the whole game's plot has been a retreat of the same basic idea/situation, just with different actors/locations.

    • Ohh no! Zhaitan is attacking! What do we do?! We need allies to form a cohesive fighting force to stop him(The Three Orders/Pact)
    • Ohh no! Mordremoth is attacking! What do we do?! We got into the jungle, make allies(Itzel, Exalted, Nuoch) to supplement our forces because they were damaged by Mordmoreth.
    • Ohh no! Balthazar is gong to screw things up in Elona! What do we do?! We go to Elona, makes allies under false pretenses(Joko's army) and stop him.
    • Ohh no! Kralkatorik is attacking! What do we do?! We gather allies(Sunspears, Crystal Bloom, Olmakhan) and blast him out of the sky.
    • Ohh no! Jormag is attacking! What do we do?! We go to the far north, gather allies(United Legion, Kodan, Spirits of the Wild, etc.) and fight him.

    The game is just the same plot repeated over and over. Its the differences in factions, characters, and situations, that make it different. I wouldn't use the "its the same plot" as an argument for it not happening.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The xenophobia records come largely from the tengu, and Cantha were fully open to trade and contact with Kryta until Zhaitan cut them off; with Canthan sailors washing ashore and the Zephyrites (who are multiracial might I add) being welcomed in Cantha, I wouldn't be surprised if ANet does away with the whole "they're xenophobic" spiel and instead turns it into some sort of "tengu-made propaganda" or something.

    Well
    A. Sea of Sorrows says Cantha was open. In-game NPCs say trade was cut off over 200 years ago, long before Zhaitan rose. And in-game NPCs tend to trump book lore.
    B. Both the Canthan Scholar in Divinity's Reach, and the book "Shiro Tagachi: Legacy of the Betrayer, Vol 2" say it was the Ministry of Purity who tossed out all the non humans. Its not mostly from the Tengu, even humans admit it was the Canthan Empire.
    C. We have no idea what the Zephyrite trade with Cantha was like. For all we know the Zepherytes made all the non-Canthans stay inside their ship, and only let the Canthan members do trade with whatever settlements they stopped at, as a means to protect them from the Empire's non-human bias.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And if it's just kicking out of the empire, well, there's a lot of neighboring lands that are theoretically ripe for the taking.

    Not really. The Canthan Empire controls the entirety of the Canthan content that we know of. And people like the Tengu only know of Elona and Tyria. Which is the only places they could flee to.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Anyways, tangent aside, I don't think we'll be having a repeat of the PoF/S4 plot, where we spend time chasing after some non-ED threat, go into solving politics, then unite local forces to fight an Elder Dragon. After all, this time around, we have an allied Elder Dragon - and depending on how Icebrood Saga ends, we might have two. That changes things a lot.

    I don't really think it will. Jormag is a known liar and deceiver at this point. I don't see it living past Icebrood Saga. As for Aurene, look at how much help shes been since becoming an Elder Dragon... not at all really. Even if Aurene knew were Bubbles was, and could fight it, we probably wouldn't want that to happen. We already saw what happens during a god fight(the Crystal Desert) an Elder Dragon fight probably wouldn't turn out much better.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think the plot will be a) hunting down Jormag if they use IBS as a lead-in instead of its own plot and we're still dealing with Jormag; b) dealing with a newly-ascended Elder Dragon Kuunavang who's gone insane from torment after ascending off of om noming Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic that Aurene no doubt released into the wild (given Jormag's/Drakkar's power boost from Kralk's death, and Jormag's new Mist-hoping abilities); or c) going to dragon land to find new replacements for the DSD and the rest of the active enemy Elder Dragons.

    If A or B is the plot for the expansion, then C will be the plot for Season 6, leading into a fight with the DSD (I feel it'd be all too fitting to make Primordus the last Elder Dragon to be dealt with) that will either be second half of Season 6, or whatever follows.

    I would be surprised if Kunnavang is an Elder Dragon, or even quasi one, when we reach Cantha. Unless she is directly related to Bubbles, she shouldn't be taking in the Elder Dragon magic any more then the Pale Tree did. I also doubt we will ever go to "dragon land" or anything of the sort, in any Living World or expansion.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The bold is why I don't think the Cantha expansion will be primarily focused on "solving" the political situation of Cantha. It will be a partial highlight for sure, but I don't expect it to be solved in the expansion because it's too much of retreading the same plot. For this reason I do not think that Cantha's government will be a threat to the playerbase.

    Ehh. to be fair. the whole game's plot has been a retreat of the same basic idea/situation, just with different actors/locations.

    • Ohh no! Zhaitan is attacking! What do we do?! We need allies to form a cohesive fighting force to stop him(The Three Orders/Pact)
    • Ohh no! Mordremoth is attacking! What do we do?! We got into the jungle, make allies(Itzel, Exalted, Nuoch) to supplement our forces because they were damaged by Mordmoreth.
    • Ohh no! Balthazar is gong to screw things up in Elona! What do we do?! We go to Elona, makes allies under false pretenses(Joko's army) and stop him.
    • Ohh no! Kralkatorik is attacking! What do we do?! We gather allies(Sunspears, Crystal Bloom, Olmakhan) and blast him out of the sky.
    • Ohh no! Jormag is attacking! What do we do?! We go to the far north, gather allies(United Legion, Kodan, Spirits of the Wild, etc.) and fight him.

    The game is just the same plot repeated over and over. Its the differences in factions, characters, and situations, that make it different. I wouldn't use the "its the same plot" as an argument for it not happening.

    When you drastically generalize the plot, then that's a lot of plots out there, if not just about every one. Main villain shows up, protagonist works to gain a means to defeat antagonist, defeats antagonist.

    I think "Zhaitan assaults the major Orders of Tyria, so they unite under the Commander in a new effort to kill it" is fairly different from "Mordremoth uses a sleeper agents to gather power and eliminates the Pact's preliminary attack on it, forcing the Commander to race against the clock to end Mordremoth before it can create an army" which in turn is fairly different from "A national leader gets it in his head that he can command and control an Elder Dragon and initiates a civil war in attempting to wake a sleeping Elder Dragon".

    Well
    A. Sea of Sorrows says Cantha was open. In-game NPCs say trade was cut off over 200 years ago, long before Zhaitan rose. And in-game NPCs tend to trump book lore.
    B. Both the Canthan Scholar in Divinity's Reach, and the book "Shiro Tagachi: Legacy of the Betrayer, Vol 2" say it was the Ministry of Purity who tossed out all the non humans. Its not mostly from the Tengu, even humans admit it was the Canthan Empire.
    C. We have no idea what the Zephyrite trade with Cantha was like. For all we know the Zepherytes made all the non-Canthans stay inside their ship, and only let the Canthan members do trade with whatever settlements they stopped at, as a means to protect them from the Empire's non-human bias.

    Regarding A, typically it's "new lore trumps old", when "game lore trumps newer non-game lore" comes into play, it's usually lore from dev comments on forums, interviews, etc. and not officially released and reviewed lore.

    Regarding B, what are the human scholar's sources though? The last contact from Cantha came from Tengu, who fought through Zhaitan's forces after being kicked out of Cantha. That timeline suggests that the expulsion of non-humans was after Zhaitan's rise in 1209 AE. Unless the tengu got kicked out before Zhaitan's rise, and human sailors made it back to Tyria to spread the news before Zhaitan rose, and the tengu for some reason took a long enough time that Zhaitan rose while they were sailing (and somehow not capsizing from the massive tidal wave), by all rights the tengu should be that source the human scholars had.

    Regarding C:
    "I agree. We just returned from one of our most culturally colorful ports of call. Sadly, it's a long and arduous journey, so I don't expect we'll be heading back anytime soon."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fade

    I imagine that if the experience was at all negative, then the review wouldn't be so praising. I would also find it odd for an oppressive xenophobic regime to produce such viewpoint as well.

    I don't really think it will. Jormag is a known liar and deceiver at this point. I don't see it living past Icebrood Saga. As for Aurene, look at how much help shes been since becoming an Elder Dragon... not at all really. Even if Aurene knew were Bubbles was, and could fight it, we probably wouldn't want that to happen. We already saw what happens during a god fight(the Crystal Desert) an Elder Dragon fight probably wouldn't turn out much better.

    Aurene's lack of help is mainly so that there's a remaining level of tension. They played this off by proclaiming that Aurene swooping in would only further Bangar's argument and those who may follow in his footsteps would be more likely to do so. However, this won't remain true when we move to Cantha, because we'll be entering a new environment. One largely untouched by the Elder Dragons in whole.

    As for Jormag's survival... I can see it going two ways. A) We kill Jormag, after somehow miraculously finding a replacement (given Almorra's "don't worry, we're just watching Jormag" comment during Bound by Blood, I don't think ANet's going the "One True Elder Dragon" route), or B) we cure Jormag's Torment, turning it good, and putting Jormag on the path of redemption. Whether this redemption means active assistance, or it retreating to other lands, is up to debate.

    I do think A is more likely, but I think B will be more interesting.

    Sure, but thats going to be after Cantha, and I would guess after LWS6. The Primordus plot is going to be something wholly separate, dealing with the Depths, and the Asura. Something totally disconnected from Xpack 3, or LWS6.

    I dunno about it dealing with the Depths and asura, given the route Jormag's gone and the fact we've already seen Primordus move, but yes I agree it'll be a post-Season 6 plot, which I more or less said.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think "Zhaitan assaults the major Orders of Tyria, so they unite under the Commander in a new effort to kill it" is fairly different from "Mordremoth uses a sleeper agents to gather power and eliminates the Pact's preliminary attack on it, forcing the Commander to race against the clock to end Mordremoth before it can create an army" which in turn is fairly different from "A national leader gets it in his head that he can command and control an Elder Dragon and initiates a civil war in attempting to wake a sleeping Elder Dragon".

    Yes, hence why I said "The game is just the same plot repeated over and over. Its the differences in factions, characters, and situations, that make it different."

    Let me ask you this. If the Canthan Empire isn't hostile to the players, what barrier would there be to getting them on our side to fight Bubbles? What would the 4-5 maps of the expansion even cover given that, from what little we know, the Deep Sea dragon's minions are entirely water based, when the majority of the Canthan landmass's interior is inland, and thus, not near water to be affected by it? What would the metas be in something like Shing Jea beyond something like "Defend the coast"?

    The majority of the narrative against each of the Dragons/Balthazar has been getting the information/forces we need to stop them. The actual direct battle against the dragon has typically been the minority of the story. What you propose is a situation equivalent to skipping Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, and just starting off at Dragon's Stand. Or skipping all of LWS4 and just starting off at Dragonfall. Even Icebrood Saga has mostly been just us chasing Bangar and not us going on some big campaign to combat Jormag directly. And with IBS only having 4 main episodes left, with those 4 episodes likely being more split maps like Bjora/Drizzlewood are. I could very easily see it being episodes 5 and 6 are about the Spirits of the Wild, and only 7-8 actually deal with us fighting Jormag. Again leading into the same narrative senario we saw with Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Regarding A, typically it's "new lore trumps old", when "game lore trumps newer non-game lore" comes into play, it's usually lore from dev comments on forums, interviews, etc. and not officially released and reviewed lore.

    And nothing has indicated that the Canthans were trading with anyone in the last 200 years(besides the airborne Zephyrites) besides one line from a book that contradicted by several in-game sources.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Regarding B, what are the human scholar's sources though?

    The Canthan Empire began its purge of non-humans before the Canthan Empire cut off contact with anyone else. It would have been well known information to pretty much everyone in Tyria and Elona that they were doing it. Obviously all the non-humans such as Tengu, Naga, and the handful of Dredge who had dug to Cantha, would have resisted until they couldn't anymore. The Tengu resisted for some time before finally going "na screw it" and leaving.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I imagine that if the experience was at all negative, then the review wouldn't be so praising. I would also find it odd for an oppressive xenophobic regime to produce such viewpoint as well.

    Said review wasn't very praising at all. All it mentions is that Cantha is culturally colorful. and yeah, lots of Canthan culture has a lot of colors and elaborate traditions as a part of it. A human exceptionalism empire like the Canthan one would try to focus a lot on such things, as a means to show how much better it is then everyone else.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene's lack of help is mainly so that there's a remaining level of tension. They played this off by proclaiming that Aurene swooping in would only further Bangar's argument and those who may follow in his footsteps would be more likely to do so. However, this won't remain true when we move to Cantha, because we'll be entering a new environment. One largely untouched by the Elder Dragons in whole.

    Yeah, I'm sure the Canthans would totally be fine with us bringing a ultra-mega-powerful Elder Dragon along with us after not having contact with Tyria or Elona for decades, if not centuries. That's totally not a super threatening thing to do or anything.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As for Jormag's survival... I can see it going two ways. A) We kill Jormag, after somehow miraculously finding a replacement (given Almorra's "don't worry, we're just watching Jormag" comment during Bound by Blood, I don't think ANet's going the "One True Elder Dragon" route), or B) we cure Jormag's Torment, turning it good, and putting Jormag on the path of redemption. Whether this redemption means active assistance, or it retreating to other lands, is up to debate.

    I do think A is more likely, but I think B will be more interesting.

    I would presume its A. But, I don't think we will necessarily find a replacement. Ever since Aurene's ascension into an Elder Dragon, we have seen none of the ley-energy super charged bounty creatures we saw across Elona. Likewise, instances of volatile, and unbound, magic have dropped to zero, outside of the places Aurene has branded. Instead of just being all over the place like we saw previously. Aurene rising the position of Elder Dragon has seemingly set things back to pre-Mordremoth's death levels. We could get away with killing another Elder Dragon without the world exploding, based on what the game has shown us thus far.

    As for Almorra's comment, that never came off to me that she was holding off because a lack of a replacement for Jormag. It just came across as she isn't going to just launch full force into Jormag before the player is ready, and before the Pact can organize. Since, you know, we are the one who have killed all the past elder Dragons. She isn't going to start attacking another one before we are prepped to lead the battle. Its more of a "I'm letting you get some time off" rather then "dude replacements!"

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno about it dealing with the Depths and asura, given the route Jormag's gone and the fact we've already seen Primordus move, but yes I agree it'll be a post-Season 6 plot, which I more or less said.

    I'm not sure what you mean. Jormag's story has gone largely like I expected it too, focusing on mostly the Norn and Charr who are the two biggest cultures in the region next to it. Primordus is still underground, and the Asura's gateway network extended from as far north as the Far Shiverpeaks, to all the way to under Cantha. Primordus could go anywhere in the known world and still be near one of the Asura's old mega cities, since we have no idea where any of them were. Probably get a little bit of Skritt lore in the process as well. Like how we got some Kodan appearances in IBS.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Let me ask you this. If the Canthan Empire isn't hostile to the players, what barrier would there be to getting them on our side to fight Bubbles?
    [...]
    What you propose is a situation equivalent to skipping Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths, and just starting off at Dragon's Stand.

    Not at all, and you believing such makes me think you didn't read my post.

    And nothing has indicated that the Canthans were trading with anyone in the last 200 years(besides the airborne Zephyrites) besides one line from a book that contradicted by several in-game sources.

    Cantha wouldn't be having sailors close enough to Tyria/Elona to wash ashore if they were fully isolated. Sources: The Movement of the World and Icebrood Saga Magazine.

    The Canthan Empire began its purge of non-humans before the Canthan Empire cut off contact with anyone else.

    The best source you have for that is the Movement of the World giving the date 1127 AE for Usoku taking "a firm hold of his nation". Naturally, the conquest of Kurzicks, Luxons, and non-humans cannot occur at one point. But keep in mind that when The Movement was written in 2007, Zhaitan's and Jormag's waking times were switched around. Which, incidentally, would place Zhaitan's rise shortly before the "isolation".

    A lot of the city dialogue is from pretty early on, hence why we have some norn in Hoelbrak proclaiming Jormag was in Drakkar Lake, despite this not being true. The Canthan Scholar and that book could easily be the same, written when Zhaitan rose 200 years ago instead of 150.

    Suffice it to say, a lot of details from the Movement has been retconned. So it is not a reliable source when trying to disprove a retcon.

    Yeah, I'm sure the Canthans would totally be fine with us bringing a ultra-mega-powerful Elder Dragon along with us after not having contact with Tyria or Elona for decades, if not centuries. That's totally not a super threatening thing to do or anything.

    The Empire of the Dragon being friendly to a powerful, friendly dragon is not all that unlikely.

    I would presume its A. But, I don't think we will necessarily find a replacement. Ever since Aurene's ascension into an Elder Dragon, we have seen none of the ley-energy super charged bounty creatures we saw across Elona. Likewise, instances of volatile, and unbound, magic have dropped to zero, outside of the places Aurene has branded. Instead of just being all over the place like we saw previously. Aurene rising the position of Elder Dragon has seemingly set things back to pre-Mordremoth's death levels. We could get away with killing another Elder Dragon without the world exploding, based on what the game has shown us thus far.

    As for Almorra's comment, that never came off to me that she was holding off because a lack of a replacement for Jormag. It just came across as she isn't going to just launch full force into Jormag before the player is ready, and before the Pact can organize. Since, you know, we are the one who have killed all the past elder Dragons. She isn't going to start attacking another one before we are prepped to lead the battle. Its more of a "I'm letting you get some time off" rather then "dude replacements!"

    On the bounties: ANet devs stated that the bounties were all orchestrated by the Order of Shadows, who are based in Elona. This is why we don't have any bounties in Thunderhead Peaks either. We do see ley-line charged individuals though - for example, the three Frost Legion champs in the Claw of Jormag fight, and all the cache keepers. Don't think there are any in Bjora or Grothmar. Also, Episode 4 added several karmic volatile magic into Drizzlewood. And both Bjora and Drizzlewood have the unstable rifts for skyscale.

    I'm not sure what you mean. Jormag's story has gone largely like I expected it too, focusing on mostly the Norn and Charr who are the two biggest cultures in the region next to it.

    Last year, you were, almost vehemently, disagreeing with me about theories of any potential of a charr civil war, of Bangar being the bad guy, or the Renegades coming back into the plot. Yet all three were realized with the prologue. Renegades were a fairly minor plot part in the end, but you were arguing against that, against the entire charr half of this plot, before Bound by Blood's launch. So please don't BS in claiming that you expected it all.

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  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    Speaking of the whole Commander and Adventurer being separate characters, I am curious if they will ever cover this topic. We know in X and y moments in the storyline the Main Story Instance missions cover events of the Commander side while the Meta Event covers the Adventurer side of the story.

    Both characters have been consistently existing parallel with each others stories but have never once met each other.

    Yet at the same time certain Stories are separated from the Commander and Adventurer such as Raid storylines, world exploration, and Meta events follow the Adventurer while the side of the Storyline that follows the Commander is for Main Story quests and Map Events required for Main Story Quests.

    In a funny way, if they ever decided that the Commander needs to be killed off or retire alive in the storyline, they can easily repalce the Commander with the Adventurer while providing some comments from the commander's companions about how both the Commander and Adventurer look just like each other.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The Commander has two core character traits:

    • Improvisation
    • Teamwork

    I agree. My problem with the 'teamwork' aspect of it is a game design one: they really don't let us do anything interesting with teamwork, but shoehorn it into our instances and cutscenes as a shoddy "power of friendship" type device. I think it's an unacceptably lazy treatment of what you aptly called a "core character trait" around which our PCs are built. There was a flash of inspiration in PoF that has already been mentioned in this thread - the Iberu impersonation bit. We we able to manage minions, and there was more than one way to get the job done (though admittedly they really amounted to just different ways and paces of killing things). Just some measure of control over what our team does or how the end goal is achieved, even if the overall confines of the story or instance remain the same, would mean a lot to me.

    Aside from PoF, I guess we did finally get some of this in the Hearts and Minds mission for HoT as well. It wasn't what I'm asking for here (in terms of more freedom to choose a slightly deviant path to the same ultimate destination within each particular combat encounter), but they had us specifically choose teammates to follow us in, and we were able to interact with them such that their presence uniquely helped us (like Canach's shield). Also, there was the larger teamwork aspect of the DS meta fight being part of why we were able to get so close to Mordremoth in the first place.

    Going back to the topic of the thread itself, 100% agree that Aurene ascending to The One Dragon is bad writing, even by GW2 standards. I really hope they make good on the idea that Jormag has something new and different to offer. So far it seems like just a straight deception and manipulation, and the elevation of Ryland as an NPC that i am absolutely indifferent to. I'm hoping that ANet uses Jormag to subvert a lot of this and open up the way for a variety of alternatives (many good ones have been mentioned here already).

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Not at all, and you believing such makes me think you didn't read my post.

    I read it, it just doesn't make any sort of sense.

    Your narrative speculation doesn't follow any sort of basic writing stricture or flow. You don't do something like "Winds of Change" in Guild Wars 1, where we see a crazed, xenophobic, overtly oppressive, and propagandist, force like the Ministry of Purity(whose rise and tactics very much parallel a certain political party from Germany back in the 40's) come into existence, and then have multiple NPCs, books, and other lore, in the sequel confirm that it happened, and then have the players go to Cantha only to be told "Na man it was all a lie by the Tengu because reasons!" like you suggested. That would be like Anet setting up all the stuff they did for Joko, but then having us go to Elona only to find Joko was overthrown decades ago, and the Sunspears have already been rebuilt, and were running the show all this time. It just doesn't make any sense. There's no point to having done all that prep in the first place if you are just going to toss it out without using it for anything. And just like dealing with Joko's Empire was a massive part of Path of Fire, and LWS4, in map design, events, and the primary story, so too will the Canthan Empire being this way be a huge part of any Canthan expansion, and the associated Living World content, because it doesn't make any sense that it wouldn't be after all the set up they put into GW1 and GW2.

    This applies also to other situations like Bangar, which you got wrong also. What you were arguing last year, and what I disagreed with, was the notion that there would be an entire season dedicated just to Bangar starting some Charr Civil War, and attacking humans just because he didn't like them, and that the Renegades would be involved in a big way. I said that situation didn't make sense because not only is a Charr Civil War not that big of a narrative beat to take up a whole season, but also because Bangar would have to be stupid to think he could take on, not only the other Legions, but also the military forces of the rest of the world, on his own, and that the Renegades, much like the Separatists, where never that big of an organization in the first place to be that sort of threat.

    lo and behold, what we got in Icebrood saga was entirely different then your speculation. Not only were the Renegades not directly involved in any notable way, but Bangar didn't just attack humanity because he hated them. In fact, Bangar's actions were ultimately not his own, having been manipulated by Jormag from the beging. And even then, he only succeeded as much as he did because Jormag was helping him, both indirectly(by softening up resistance in Bjora by having everyone kill each other), and directly(by giving Bangar's forces Spirit magic, and letting Bangar channel his power into his forces to make Frost Legion Icebrood). Also out of the entirety of the Icebrood Saga, which is looking to have 12 releases total, the Bangar story really only covered episodes 0, 4, and 5, and the first side story update. Out of an entire Living World season, the Bangar plot was only 1/3 of it, not the whole of it as you originally argued. Everything you speculated, that I argued against, ended up not happening. The story almost point for point corrects all the problems I pointed out with your ideas a year ago, and is actually far closer to what I originally said then what you did.

    You also tend to miss very obvious things like the differences between the Elonian bounties, and whats going on in Drizzlewood. The bounties were the result of uncontrolled ley energy being released into the world after the death of two elder dragons, and later a god. Likewise the unbound/volatile magic come from this same problem, and appear across the maps. The powers Bangar's forces use in Drizzlewood stem from Jormag pumping energy from the corrupted spirits into them(hence why they drop said essences), and those forces getting Jormag Juice pumped directly into them turning them into Frost Legion. There is an explicit narrative source for these powers, that is directly unrelated to the ley energy problem from previous season. Hence why we don't see unrelated boss monsters having these problems. Likewise, we only see volatile magic in Grothmar as the direct result of Aurene's branding, and in Drizzlewood we see NOT volatile magic as you state(since it doesn't give any volatile magic to the player) but the "karmic magic" we do see is the direct result of Jormag's power. As we can see on the map, and what was confirmed in the guild chat, the massive veins in the bloodfields are the result of a receding glacier caused by Jormag sucking up power from across the area. In both instances, the volatile/karmic magic only result from the direct use of an Elder Dragon's power, and not just natural magical instability.(hence no appearance in Bjora where no direct ED power was used)

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Cantha wouldn't be having sailors close enough to Tyria/Elona to wash ashore if they were fully isolated. Sources: The Movement of the World and Icebrood Saga Magazine.

    Yeah man, no one would ever want to flee a horribly draconian and oppressive government. Looks at the deserter movement stemming from Joko's Empire Nope.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Empire of the Dragon being friendly to a powerful, friendly dragon is not all that unlikely.

    The Empire of the Dragon being hostile to something related to the thing thats been attacking its shores/ships for years, and especially while during a xenophobic rule that promotes the inferiority of all non-humans isn't all that unlikely. Also, are you really trying to suggest that just because they call themselves the Empire of the Dragon, they would like Elder Dragons, despite that name being formed long before they even knew what the Elder Dragons where?

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Not at all, and you believing such makes me think you didn't read my post.

    I read it, it just doesn't make any sort of sense.

    Your narrative speculation doesn't follow any sort of basic writing stricture or flow. You don't do something like "Winds of Change" in Guild Wars 1, -snip-

    Winds of Change and The Movement was only a setup to explain why Cantha's distanced and not accessible at the start of GW2. Ever since the start of GW2, they've been slowly reversing the extreme view interpreted by players.

    Joko is an entirely difference situation because, ultimately, Canthans will die in the 200 year timespan. Not only did Joko conquer Elona later than Cantha went isolationist, but Joko was a constant. There won't be any Canthan who was part of Usoku's reign that's alive still.

    The established narrative served its purpose, and they've been changing it.

    This applies also to other situations like Bangar, which you got wrong also. What you were arguing last year, and what I disagreed with, was the notion that there would be an entire season dedicated just to Bangar starting some Charr Civil War, and attacking humans just because he didn't like them, and that the Renegades would be involved in a big way.

    I never argued for an entire season to be dedicated to just Bangar. I theorized about a season split between two narratives, one being Bangar. I was incorrect about the direction of the Bangar narrative (and the split narrative), but I was pretty much spot on everything else - his motivations, his backings, and who joins his side of the civil war were all called. And in all honesty, the Renegades were involved in a big way since they were the first wave of the Dominion, bolstered by recruits from the All-Legion Rally.

    In fact, Bangar's actions were ultimately not his own, having been manipulated by Jormag from the beging. And even then, he only succeeded as much as he did because Jormag was helping him, both indirectly(by softening up resistance in Bjora by having everyone kill each other), and directly(by giving Bangar's forces Spirit magic, and letting Bangar channel his power into his forces to make Frost Legion Icebrood).

    And that's yet to be proven. The second bit - giving Bangar's forces spirit magic? Completely false. The essence use in the Dominion is pure mechanics, zero lore to it. Unless you have found any dialogue to indicate otherwise. And all evidence about the Frost Legion was that Bangar was exploiting Jormag's wounds, it wasn't given to him freely.

    All indication actually shows that it was Bangar's own intentions and actions, and that Jormag merely went with the flow. Hence why in Forging Steel (another thing you predicted falsely, yet make no admittance of in your "everything is going exactly as I have foreseen" claim), Jormag's actions and minions were actually fighting against Bangar's forces, and why Bangar was initially killing Svanir (something that Dominion even comment on in northern Drizzlewood). Any assistance from Jormag is, by all indication, recent.

    The powers Bangar's forces use in Drizzlewood stem from Jormag pumping energy from the corrupted spirits into them(hence why they drop said essences),

    Please, provide an actual source for this. And I don't mean mechanics that exploit the same color-coordination as the Ooze Pits in order to ensure that the mastery remains useful outside of Bjora Marches - something that was largely complained about for HoT and especially S3 masteries and that ANet was obviously actively using to avoid repeating of said complaints. Is there any dialogue that hints at it? If so, why don't Flame Legion or Frost Legion soldiers get these "blessings"?

    Hence why we don't see unrelated boss monsters having these problems.

    You say this as if we've even had unrelated boss monsters to fight. We've barely had any trace of wildlife, and not a single champion of such.

    and in Drizzlewood we see NOT volatile magic as you state(since it doesn't give any volatile magic to the player) but the "karmic magic" we do see is the direct result of Jormag's power.

    Do you actually have a source to establish that the karmic volatile magic - which looks and functions just like volatile magic - is not volatile magic? Or are you proclaiming such because you're following the "looks like or doesn't look like therefore it is or isn't" rule that doesn't always apply?

    And how would "the direct result of Jormag's power" of rescinding corruption affect the Umbral Grotto area, which had no rescinding corruption. I mean, you're saying it "only shows up around" dragon activity, but here we see that's very much not the case.

    The Empire of the Dragon being hostile to something related to the thing thats been attacking its shores/ships for years, and especially while during a xenophobic rule that promotes the inferiority of all non-humans isn't all that unlikely. Also, are you really trying to suggest that just because they call themselves the Empire of the Dragon, they would like Elder Dragons, despite that name being formed long before they even knew what the Elder Dragons where?

    There is zero evidence that the DSD has been or currently is attacking Cantha's shores. Nor that they would know about the ships wrecked by the DSD. For all they know, they lose a handful of ships to sea - which is common even without fantasy monsters.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Winds of Change and The Movement was only a setup to explain why Cantha's distanced and not accessible at the start of GW2. Ever since the start of GW2, they've been slowly reversing the extreme view interpreted by players.

    Except they haven't, with in-game NPCs and books referencing the still xenophobic nature. Just like Elona was exactly as described back then.

    Joko is an entirely difference situation because, ultimately, Canthans will die in the 200 year timespan. Not only did Joko conquer Elona later than Cantha went isolationist, but Joko was a constant. There won't be any Canthan who was part of Usoku's reign that's alive still.

    You act like this means anything. Cantha's isolationism is a direct parallel to the isolationism to Japan... which lasted 214 years, and would have gone on further unless Matthew Perry hadn't made Japan open its borders via threats of force. Even today, 167 years later, many parts of rural Japan are known to be very xenophobic toward non-Japanese people as a result of cultural beliefs stemming from that era. Now your literally arguing that real history didn't happen. I wouldn't be surprised if similar threats, and actions, of force are necessary to make Cantha open its borders again.

    I never argued for an entire season to be dedicated to just Bangar. I theorized about a season split between two narratives, one being Bangar. I was incorrect about the direction of the Bangar narrative (and the split narrative), but I was pretty much spot on everything else - his motivations, his backings, and who joins his side of the civil war were all called. And in all honesty, the Renegades were involved in a big way since they were the first wave of the Dominion, bolstered by recruits from the All-Legion Rally.

    And that's yet to be proven. The second bit - giving Bangar's forces spirit magic? Completely false. The essence use in the Dominion is pure mechanics, zero lore to it. Unless you have found any dialogue to indicate otherwise. And all evidence about the Frost Legion was that Bangar was exploiting Jormag's wounds, it wasn't given to him freely.

    All indication actually shows that it was Bangar's own intentions and actions, and that Jormag merely went with the flow. Hence why in Forging Steel (another thing you predicted falsely, yet make no admittance of in your "everything is going exactly as I have foreseen" claim), Jormag's actions and minions were actually fighting against Bangar's forces, and why Bangar was initially killing Svanir (something that Dominion even comment on in northern Drizzlewood). Any assistance from Jormag is, by all indication, recent.

    Please, provide an actual source for this. And I don't mean mechanics that exploit the same color-coordination as the Ooze Pits in order to ensure that the mastery remains useful outside of Bjora Marches - something that was largely complained about for HoT and especially S3 masteries and that ANet was obviously actively using to avoid repeating of said complaints. Is there any dialogue that hints at it? If so, why don't Flame Legion or Frost Legion soldiers get these "blessings"?

    Konig, there are two separate Jormag corrupted objects inside Bangar's office, Boneskinner tracks outside his office window, and direct confirmation from the devs that Jormag was talking to Bangar in the Icebrood Saga trailer, which takes place before the Saga even begins. But no, its totally unproven that Jormag was manipulating Bangar. Really Konig, what do you think these things exist for? This isn't even vague foreshadowing like the "Lazarus is Balthazar because of the shield" thing. This is in your face with a brick level.

    And yes, Jormag's forces were fighting the Steel Warband, and the blizzards formed by the Fraenir were also delaying Bangar. And that same Fraenir also made a giant Ice construct to stop the player from catching up to Bangar just as he was leaving Grothmar. As Aurene mentions at the end of "Shadow in the Ice"

    Player: Can you help us deal with Bangar?
    Aurene: He's a part of a larger web. Strands connecting to strands. Cut one out and nothing changes, not really.
    Aurene: It's hard to explain. But seeing how those strands connect... Taking one life won't solve your problems.
    Aurene: His time will come, but there's a reason Jormag has left both of you alive.

    Jormag has a long term plan in mind for everyone involved. Its moving pieces into the positions it wants them in, in the time it wants them to be there. Its no coincidence that Bangar happens to be in Darkrime Delves at the same time Jormag has its voice manipulate the Vigil into killing each other, just as Almorra is there, and the Svanir drive her into Darkrime. The whole kitten thing was set up. Just like the whole kitten season was one big set up by Jormag.

    As for the Spirit Essence. It a major plot point in Episode 2 of the Icebrood Saga that Drakkar and Jormag have been feeding off of the magic of the Spirits of the Wild, and using the Spirirt's powers to bolster their own. With said essences only being dropped by Svanir, Fallen, and Aberrant in Bjora Marches, all three of which are directly controlled/corrupted by Jormag. Likewise, in Drizzlewood, these same spirit essences are being dropped only by Bangar's forces. Bangar, who is known to be manipulated by Jormag. None of the other wildlife present in Bjora or Drizzlewood, be they Arctodus, alpine Stalkers, Ice wurms, wolves, bears, trolls, spiders, minotaurs, pineshades, or wind riders, drop these essences. Its only those working with Jormag, like it was since the mechanic was first introduced. Also, the three Frost Legion Centurions you fight as part of the Claw of Jormag fight are literally called "Resilient Centurion Crusher", "Valorous Centurion Bladestorm", and "Vigilant Centurion Shaman" because they have the spirit power enhancements, and drop said essences as you damage them. So the Frost Legion do get them, and one of them, as evidenced by the name, is a former Flame Legion Shaman.

    Also, most of Bangar's initial forces were explicitly stated to be members of a dozen warbands from the various Legions that he recruited at the All Legion Rally. Which is about the number of Charr we see at the end of Bound by Blood. The Renegades were only a very small number of that. And are totally unmentioned or seen later in Drizzlewood really.

    (another thing you predicted falsely, yet make no admittance of in your "everything is going exactly as I have foreseen" claim),

    I never claimed everything is going exactly as I foresaw. This one just one big lie. I only claimed to expect the Jormag sotry to deal with the Charr and Norn. I made no mention of any specifics of how that would happen.

    Do you actually have a source to establish that the karmic volatile magic - which looks and functions just like volatile magic - is not volatile magic?

    Do YOU actually have a source to establish that the karmic magic, which has a different color, and gives a completely different reward, is volatile magic? Occams razor.

    And how would "the direct result of Jormag's power" of rescinding corruption affect the Umbral Grotto area, which had no rescinding corruption. I mean, you're saying it "only shows up around" dragon activity, but here we see that's very much not the case.

    Its been draining energy from the whole area.

    There is zero evidence that the DSD has been or currently is attacking Cantha's shores. Nor that they would know about the ships wrecked by the DSD. For all they know, they lose a handful of ships to sea - which is common even without fantasy monsters.

    Yeah man, its only been currently active in the waters between Elona and Cantha, and has sunk numerous ships. But no, the Canthans are 100% totally unaware of it. come on... you can't really believe this can you?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Konig, there are two separate Jormag corrupted objects inside Bangar's office, Boneskinner tracks outside his office window, and direct confirmation from the devs that Jormag was talking to Bangar in the Icebrood Saga trailer, which takes place before the Saga even begins. But no, its totally unproven that Jormag was manipulating Bangar. Really Konig, what do you think these things exist for? This isn't even vague foreshadowing like the "Lazarus is Balthazar because of the shield" thing. This is in your face with a brick level.

    We never have a timestamp for the trailer. And I'm pretty sure that Jormag wasn't marching on Hoelbrak with an army of icebrood charr before the Icebrood Saga begins. I'm also pretty sure that Grothmar Valley and the Blood Keep isn't burnt to the ground when Icebrood Saga begins either. But based on Visions of the Past and Shadows in the Ice dialogue from Bangar, he didn't begin hearing whispers until his men marched into Bjora Marches - implying to me that Jormag's plans with Bangar began after Almorra's death.

    And while, yes, there are two Corrupted weapons in his office, those weapons in of themselves don't spread corruption let alone whispers. Only the Sanguinary Blade did that - if all corrupted weapons did, then the entire Svanir army would be equipped with weapons that could single-handedly wipe out cities. Pretty sure that isn't the case. What those are for is to foreshadow the culmination of the prologue: that Bangar is going after Jormag. It isn't foreshadowing Jormag manipulating Bangar.

    And we've never discovered what those tracks come from. Boneskinner is a likely possibility, but unproven.

    We will likely learn all this in the coming weeks with the Bangar dialogue.

    [EDIT: Bangar talks again, and does mention whispers but no timestamp, as he's not really sure when his plans began to become Jormag's, and is only just now after being turned into the Voice realizing that they weren't always his plans. But thinking on it, the Boneskinners only throw their own voices, they don't channel Jormag's whispers like Drakkar does, and Drakkar's whispers couldn't go past the mountains. Presuming it was a boneskinner, then it would have only been eyes and ears for Joramg, not a conduit to whisper into Bangar's mind. This, of course, would mean that Bangar's initial intention to go after Jormag was largely his own. And if not, if Jormag was whispering into Bangar's mind while he was sitting in Grothmar Valley, the question is: how? All evidence from Episode 2 indicates that such would be impossible.]

    Jormag has a long term plan in mind for everyone involved. Its moving pieces into the positions it wants them in, in the time it wants them to be there. Its no coincidence that Bangar happens to be in Darkrime Delves at the same time Jormag has its voice manipulate the Vigil into killing each other, just as Almorra is there, and the Svanir drive her into Darkrime. The whole kitten thing was set up. Just like the whole kitten season was one big set up by Jormag.

    The Svanir didn't drive Almorra into Darkrime Delves. Almorra and Jhavi set that place as a rendevous point well before the attack on Jora's Keep:

    Commander: "Where the raven can't fly?" What does that mean?
    Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: It's for me. Our code for Darkrime Delves. That means... Almorra escaped.
    Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: She's at Darkrime Delves. I know it. Get her back, Commander.

    The Svanir didn't drive her into Darkrime Delves, they followed her there. Jormag had no means of knowing that Almorra and Bangar would meet up until they were both already there. And even before then, Bangar was only in position to enter Darkrime Delves because Ryland set off the flare because of encountering the Ancient Forgeman. Jormag, again, had no means of ensuring that Bangar would head to Darkrime Delves, just as Jormag had no means of ensuring Almorra would go there either.

    Jormag was without doubt controlling the Commander's pacing of entering Bjora Marches, but all indication and observation shows that Jormag didn't plan on Bangar or Almorra going to Darkrime Delves.

    As for the Spirit Essence. It a major plot point in Episode 2 of the Icebrood Saga that Drakkar and Jormag have been feeding off of the magic of the Spirits of the Wild, and using the Spirirt's powers to bolster their own. With said essences only being dropped by Svanir, Fallen, and Aberrant in Bjora Marches, all three of which are directly controlled/corrupted by Jormag. Likewise, in Drizzlewood, these same spirit essences are being dropped only by Bangar's forces. Bangar, who is known to be manipulated by Jormag. None of the other wildlife present in Bjora or Drizzlewood, be they Arctodus, alpine Stalkers, Ice wurms, wolves, bears, trolls, spiders, minotaurs, pineshades, or wind riders, drop these essences. Its only those working with Jormag, like it was since the mechanic was first introduced. Also, the three Frost Legion Centurions you fight as part of the Claw of Jormag fight are literally called "Resilient Centurion Crusher", "Valorous Centurion Bladestorm", and "Vigilant Centurion Shaman" because they have the spirit power enhancements, and drop said essences as you damage them. So the Frost Legion do get them, and one of them, as evidenced by the name, is a former Flame Legion Shaman.

    So in other words, you have no source. You're just proclaiming it as fact because you believe it to be fact.

    As to the three Centurions - they're Frost Legion, not uncorrupted Dominion. Also clearly exploiting the mastery system to maintain its usefulness in the main meta. So poor example there.

    Also, most of Bangar's initial forces were explicitly stated to be members of a dozen warbands from the various Legions that he recruited at the All Legion Rally. Which is about the number of Charr we see at the end of Bound by Blood. The Renegades were only a very small number of that. And are totally unmentioned or seen later in Drizzlewood really.

    The Renegades were among those members across the chasm and were pretty explicitly established to have formed the basis of the Dominion - both in idiology and initial numbers that fell to Drakkar's whispers as mentioned in Episode 2.

    (another thing you predicted falsely, yet make no admittance of in your "everything is going exactly as I have foreseen" claim),

    I never claimed everything is going exactly as I foresaw. This one just one big lie. I only claimed to expect the Jormag sotry to deal with the Charr and Norn. I made no mention of any specifics of how that would happen.

    I see you didn't recognize me quoting Star Wars with that, Mister Palpatine.

    Do you actually have a source to establish that the karmic volatile magic - which looks and functions just like volatile magic - is not volatile magic?

    Do YOU actually have a source to establish that the karmic magic, which has a different color, and gives a completely different reward, is volatile magic? Occams razor.

    Looks the same, functions the same, appears in the same fashion (skyscale rifts) as both the orange volatile magic nodes that gives the currency and the red ones that don't.

    I'd say Occam's Razor is on my side there.

    besides, the skyscale rifts themselves appearing in Bjora and Drizzlewood is kind of hard cold evidence that all is not right with the world. Which just makes me feel like you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing with me. Also Aurene's own statements from Episode 2:

    Aurene: You see me here, you speak with me, but I'm also in the Mists, repairing the damage Kralkatorrik caused.

    If all was already right in the world, and the world could handle a full out Elder Dragon death, then would Aurene be really needing to repair everything still? Probably not.

    And how would "the direct result of Jormag's power" of rescinding corruption affect the Umbral Grotto area, which had no rescinding corruption. I mean, you're saying it "only shows up around" dragon activity, but here we see that's very much not the case.

    Its been draining energy from the whole area.

    Correction: from the northern area. As is explicitly established in the very first instance of Episode 4. The southern area didn't have any of its "tormented ice" as the devs dubbed it.

    There is zero evidence that the DSD has been or currently is attacking Cantha's shores. Nor that they would know about the ships wrecked by the DSD. For all they know, they lose a handful of ships to sea - which is common even without fantasy monsters.

    Yeah man, its only been currently active in the waters between Elona and Cantha, and has sunk numerous ships. But no, the Canthans are 100% totally unaware of it. come on... you can't really believe this can you?

    There's a pretty big distance between Elona and Cantha, you know. With no evidence as to just how far away from Tyria/Elona the DSD is.

    I mean, you can fit an entire second Elona in the distance between Elona and Cantha. If Domain of Kourna and Sandswept Isles didn't feel the ravages of Kralkatorrik as it passed between Vabbi and northern Kourna, why would Cantha's shores feel the effects of the DSD unless it was so far south that it isn't realistic for Canthan sailors to wash ashore Tyria?

    I mean, you don't believe shipwrecked sailors from Cantha crossed the entire Clashing Seas post-wreck, do you?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tamias.7059Tamias.7059 Member ✭✭✭

    Hey, if we're speculating (in a weirdly heated way) about how the story might lead into a Cantha/Bubbles xpac, a lot of my rambling story hook from last year still holds up...

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    and Drakkar's whispers couldn't go past the mountains.

    So you just haven't played the game?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Suspicious_Traveler

    I mean, you can fit an entire second Elona in the distance between Elona and Cantha.

    So you don't understand basic geography then?

    The distance from the southern tip of Istan, to the Northern tip of Cantha, is 73 pixels. The distance from that same southern tip on Istan, to the Joko Wall where Elona ends, is 130 pixels. the distance from Elona to Cantha is only about 56% the distance from the southern part of Elona to the Nrothern part.

    If all was already right in the world, and the world could handle a full out Elder Dragon death, then would Aurene be really needing to repair everything still? Probably not.

    So you don't know why Aurene needs to repair the Mists?

    Aurene is repairing The Mists because Kralkatorrik ate it. His eating of it is totally unrelated to the ley-energy buildup happening due to the death's of Elder Dragons. If he had the ability to go into the Mists from the get go, this problem in the Mists, and Aurene needing to fix it, could have happened before any of the Elder Dragons died, because he could have eaten it then.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    and Drakkar's whispers couldn't go past the mountains.

    So you just haven't played the game?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Suspicious_Traveler

    Yes, but apparently you didn't:

    Vigil Crusader: Well, think about it: Jormag whispers to everyone, breaks them down over time. And you can't escape them.
    Vigil Tactician: We absolutely could escape them. We would just need to go very, very far away.
    [...]
    Vigil Tactician: But Jormag is very far away. So it needs a kind of...transmission tower for us to hear it. That's Drakkar.
    Vigil Marksman: Drakkar isn't a tower. Drakkar is a monster.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bjora_Marches/Vigil_patrol

    They figured out what Drakkar was. Drakkar the creature in the lake, the Ice Dragon's personal champion, was a mouthpiece for the Elder Dragon. An amplifier of sorts, capable of spreading the whispers of the Elder Dragon far beyond its lair. And with the death of Kralkatorrik and the emergence of a new Elder Dragon in his stead, Drakkar's whispers became unbearable.
    [...]
    The valley, they said, was far too dangerous for one unaccustomed to the whispers.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_History_of_Still_Waters_Speaking:_Part_Two

    Braham Eirsson: Still missing. But I found something else. The source of the whispers. Jormag's champion.
    Jhavi Jorasdottir: Drakkar. Mouthpiece of the Elder Dragon.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chasing_Ghosts

    The Whisper of Jormag: This is but a piece of me. An ambassador. The whisper that spreads my words.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Voice_in_the_Deep

    Drakkar was repeatedly stated throughout Episode 2 to be uniquely the whisper of Jormag because of the "ambassador" inside of it. It was the only one capable of spreading Jormag's whispers far away from the Elder Dragon itself. And those whispers only recently went beyond the western Bjora Marches area, and doesn't escape the eastern Bjora Marches area, since Drakkar hasn't left the region.

    The whispers are either a) near Jormag or b) near Drakkar before its death.

    The only ones to hear Jormag besides the above, are already icebrood. Which Bangar was not.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yes, but apparently you didn't:

    Literally nothing you posted disproves what I said, and, if anything, supports it by pointing out that Drakkar(due to the Whisper inside it) could pump Jormag's signal to make it reach much further. Like it does with the suspicious travelers, which are as far south as the Priory in Lornar's Pass. Which is much further away then the Blood Keep is from Drakkar.

    Come on Konig, at least try to make sense. You have reached the point of saying I am wrong, while literally proving more evidence that I was right.

  • You weren't noticing how they were talking about Drakkar being unique as a conduit? Did you completely overlook that in all the dialogue?

    I mean, hell, even Bangar is uniquely titled the "Voice of Jormag" at the end of Episode 4. No point in giving such titles if everyone and their mother are conduits for Jormag's voice.

    Now I am convinced, you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing with me.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You weren't noticing how they were talking about Drakkar being unique as a conduit? Did you completely overlook that in all the dialogue?

    And that does nothing to invalidate the fact that, as we see with the Suspicious Travelers, which are spread out all the way down to the Priory, and have auidable Whispers of Jormag's voice around them, Drakker's ability as a conduit can EASILY reach to the Blood Keep, and isn't just confined to Bjora, as you originally stated.

    Now I am convinced, you are blatantly ignoring anything that could possibly prove you wrong, because you pretty much can never accept the idea that you are wrong unless they cart it out in front of you like with the Sylvari, and even then you try to sidestep the issue with ridiculous nonsense.