We need chrono back now! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

We need chrono back now!

kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭
  • We have nothing to do in zergs anymore since last changes.

  • veil: useless, with engis throwing that stupid gyro, plus veil left some counterplay, lasting for 2 seconds and beeing visible by enemies. So not only you killed one of our most important tasks but you also made the whole zerg stealth bombing far easier, and less tactical. Not fun at all.

  • Double gravity well: the first well was almost always a diversion, in order to catch players with the second one after stab was removed, now we have only one, it's not enough!

  • Every other chrono well: useless, too slow, enemies leave before it even proks, the only one that seems good on paper is illusion of life, but now with warclaws insta killing every downed plus all the power creep it's actually impossible to use it properly.

  • Removing ip: first we lost double gravity well, because spawning clones in a large fight is impossible, also chronos aren't tanks, but our skills have low range, so we needed to push like front liners back then in order to land focus pulls and grav wells. Now we lost on demand stability(with chaos traitline), heals (inspiration) and invulnerability (f4) so if our firebrand can't carry us all the way we die before we can even start our cc rotation.

  • Boonshare: we already know you killed this build to push renegade into the meta, it's a shame you never understood that players avoid renegade because of how easy it is to play and how boring it is overall. You swapped a spec that had tons of usefull things plus boonspamming, for one that is strictly designed to boonspam and nothing else, again easy, boring, less tactical. Not fun at all.

  • portals: portal bombing it's impossible in this meta, unless your team heavily outnumbers opposing forces, the only "usefull" thing we can do is to get inside a fortress with a thief, and portal guys inside.

  • Focus pull: the only thing left for us to do, the only unique skill related to our class that no other can do better, and it's not enough to make us usefull in any way.

  • Right now as a main mesmer with 5 years behind me (tried every other spec but never had so much fun as a mesmer) when i go out to wvw, i can only:

  • a- play mirage and go roaming, flipping camps, looking for duels (which is almost impossible since every other player just mounts up run to base, get some friends and come back with +3)

  • b- try to make my single gravity well and focus pull somehow usefull joining a tag, always keeping distance because, since i can't use shatters, im a glass cannon with mid range.
  • c- try to use that meme core support build so every other player yells at me "switch to fb".
  • d- change class, go play pve, uninstall.

  • Either give us back chrono as it was, or rework every other well into something usefull and make us necros lil brothers, or give us more range so we can play as backlines. I would love to at least have ip back on chrono but no f5 so it's like core but with wells.

Comments

  • I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    idk what kind of tempest is that, but they have traits to stabilize and receive defensive bonus when overloading

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    No, they need to nerf it moar. Needs to make gravity well damage 50% less and only cc on last pulse cause it too dangerous! Right now if I am in gravity well full duration I take more that 50% of my health in damage. Need big nurf! My glass build should not be taking that much damage because I am special !

    Signed, a master player with much big skills.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Odd that a lot of commanders now run Chrono if it sucks so badly

  • Arctisavange.7261Arctisavange.7261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Odd that a lot of commanders now run Chrono if it sucks so badly

    Thats odd, who are those a lot of commanders who run chrono? I only know perish and even he says that chrono nerfs have gutted the class. He only plays it cause he like the class gameplay.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @Justine.6351 said:
    because I am special !

    that much is obvious. real special.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    unfortunate but true. we had an all chrono run before. wrecked the fb scourge combo so many times. our 30 mesmers chased after two server blobs. :/ twas op to have 2 minute stealth

    12345 of gs is a nice thing.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    but there's easy ways to get around it.

    sure if you're auto attacking creatures in pve with scepter. play mes in a zerg before making some asinine statement.

    I already mentioned 2 easy solutions. Not to mention that in a zerg your f1-f3 were useless since launch and your f4 requires only one clone. Not to mention that F1-F3 never required you more than 1 clone because you were using them to proc heals/boons from traits, not to actually shatter clones on enemy.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    idk what kind of tempest is that, but they have traits to stabilize and receive defensive bonus when overloading

    And both of those are useless in zergs because they are major traits competing with your main support traits. Meanwhile mirage gets superspeed on dodge as a minor trait making its main drawback not really a drawback.

    Also the defensive bonus is known as protection which is pretty common boon in zergs.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    I agree about other classes, but i speak for the class i play.
    Yes you can use clone generation on dodge, with duelist trait line (a line that it's used in mostly duel/roaming builds and offers nothing for zerg fights, also you can use signet of illusions for the passive clone generation, but you forget to prok all of those you have to be in combat, and targeting a player, which is dumb because of how much aoe spam we see.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    I agree about other classes, but i speak for the class i play.
    Yes you can use clone generation on dodge, with duelist trait line (a line that it's used in mostly duel/roaming builds and offers nothing for zerg fights, also you can use signet of illusions for the passive clone generation, but you forget to prok all of those you have to be in combat, and targeting a player, which is dumb because of how much aoe spam we see.

    It's not like you have any other choices as mesmer considering that every supportive traits got nerfed/removed. DPS chrono was the BiS build for zergs since nerf anyway and dueling is a part of it. Sure you'd rather use extra damage on your crits, but your main role in zergs will always be CC and utility.

    You're almost always in combat anyway and both GS and focus have high range to get you there with ease. Mirror images and decoy are also options and you dont even need clones to stay alive for long, you use them mainly for gravity+F4. The rest of the shatters are useless anyway and always were. The worst part of the chrono change is that they didnt even change shatter functionality.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    Clones have been dead in zerg fights for quite a long time now, and that's kinda bad. It's a core mechanic of the mesmers, yet it is quite unusable during zerg fights.
    What makes matters worse is, that you basically have to take portal and / or veil (and if you take portal, you better also add stealth to your repertoire) in order to be of optimal use for the zerg. These choices very much limit your options in terms of survivability and utility.
    Add on top of that the new thief portal and the previously existing necroportal, the mesmers role has been limited down further and further. (I know the mesmer portal is superior, when it comes to transporting numbers over distance to each of the alternatives)

    The whole profession, not just chrono, badly needs a redesign for WvW, ideally one that does not lock one or more of its specs into the "it's a roaming spec" or "it's a zerging spec" corner. The whole point of GW2 was to offer its players choice, not lock them into a specific role. If locking certain specs (no matter which traits and traitlines are picked), sometimes whole professions, into certain roles, we just end up with a different implementation of the holy trinity system. The very thing we wanted to do away with.
    (And it's not only mesmers facing that problem.)

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    I agree about other classes, but i speak for the class i play.
    Yes you can use clone generation on dodge, with duelist trait line (a line that it's used in mostly duel/roaming builds and offers nothing for zerg fights, also you can use signet of illusions for the passive clone generation, but you forget to prok all of those you have to be in combat, and targeting a player, which is dumb because of how much aoe spam we see.

    It's not like you have any other choices as mesmer considering that every supportive traits got nerfed/removed. DPS chrono was the BiS build for zergs since nerf anyway and dueling is a part of it. Sure you'd rather use extra damage on your crits, but your main role in zergs will always be CC and utility.

    You're almost always in combat anyway and both GS and focus have high range to get you there with ease. Mirror images and decoy are also options and you dont even need clones to stay alive for long, you use them mainly for gravity+F4. The rest of the shatters are useless anyway and always were. The worst part of the chrono change is that they didnt even change shatter functionality.

    the worst thing is I didn't even play dps chrono, i used an interruption build, staff/scepter focus, or sword pisto/scepter focus, chaos, domination and chrono, my role was to only land heavy cc and cleave.

    GS auto attack spam is useless, rangers would outshine that sort of build anyway, and that's the worst class today to bring to a zerg fight.

    And about shatters, maybe shatters alone are useless, but with chaos and inspiration it was game changing, having the ability to clean condis, give stability and a small heal made me not so dependant on firebrands, so i could get in and out of combat alone, land my cc rotations and survive.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I think illusions should just get 3s of invuln as base line. building up clones for shatters has always been needlessly difficult, and no other class has so much trouble using their class mechanic.

    There's a trait that generates clone on dodge as well as utility skill that generates clones passively.

    Tempest has to wait for 5 seconds to get to use its mechanic which can be interrupted and puts whole attunement on cd - cant trait the waiting cooldown nor speed up the overload channel. Druid needs to heal allies to get access to its mechanic - no traits to make it easier to charge. Scrapper one requires downed people and it can still be interrupted with ease - no traits to make it more reliable.

    More classes need to have higher limits on their new mechanics. Sure chrono change sucks, but there's easy ways to get around it.

    idk what kind of tempest is that, but they have traits to stabilize and receive defensive bonus when overloading

    The stability trait (if you take it, because it's inferior to other traits) gives one stack of stab which is easily thwarted by even one opponent. There is no defensive bonus for overloading. There are boons that can be applied, such as protection when an aura is granted -- keep in mind no aura is granted until the end of the overload.

    idk what kind of experience you have with tempest, but it seems not much.

  • It isn't that Chronos don't have any decent zerg support. They've got Feedback, Portal, Temporal Curtain, Null Field, Illusion of Life, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Distraction, Time Warp, Gravity Well, Mass Invisibility, and Well of Precognition. But, the support doesn't tell the whole story. There's two things that are really lacking, which is why i'm reluctant to take mesmer into WvW.

    (1): No good ranged damage options. Other than the occasional Phantasmal Berserker and Mirror Blade, the mesmer doesn't have much to offer on offense. The Greatsword auto is terrible, mesmers have poor AoE, and those illusions die really fast in a zerg.
    (2): Bringing all of the support skills and traits is a terrible build that's likely to get you killed. Mesmers live off of Blink and Decoy. This leaves mesmers with one free utility slot to take all of their unique support skills. While the mesmer can, in theory, support a zerg in a lot of ways, in practice they get maybe one or two niche utilities and that is the end of it. Mesmers can do anything, just not a lot of it.

    Chrono is hit especially hard now that they don't have Self-Shattering and good shatters anymore. All of the mesmer specs work well for solo and small scale, but in large scale it don't translate up well.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It isn't that Chronos don't have any decent zerg support. They've got Feedback, Portal, Temporal Curtain, Null Field, Illusion of Life, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Distraction, Time Warp, Gravity Well, Mass Invisibility, and Well of Precognition. But, the support doesn't tell the whole story. There's two things that are really lacking, which is why i'm reluctant to take mesmer into WvW.

    feedback: guardians can do this with shield 5, less cd, plus they bring so much more utilty and support to the table.

    portal: portal bombs are impossible in this meta, we can only get people up a castle/tower wall, anyway it's still somewhat usefull.

    temporal curtain: the only thing usefull and unique, but with 25 secs of cd, and beeing so predictable its meh.

    illusion of life: talked about this one already, good on papers but it's impossible to use properly, way too much casting time, between the cleave and powercreep it's really hard to land, not mentioning warclaws insta killing downed too.

    mantras: the stability and condi cleanse mantra ar ok, but guards do that much better and far easier and they bring more to the table, mantra of distraction works pretty well in big fights if necros use corruption to take away stability.

    mass invisibility: talked about this one earlier too, its worthless, not enough stealth, only affects 10 players, and scrappers are way better for this one, we lost veil too since those stupid scrapper changes.

    well of precognition: this one its not that bad but still outshined by guardian's weapon skills.

    (1): No good ranged damage options. Other than the occasional Phantasmal Berserker and Mirror Blade, the mesmer doesn't have much to offer on offense. The Greatsword auto is terrible, mesmers have poor AoE, and those illusions die really fast in a zerg.
    (2): Bringing all of the support skills and traits is a terrible build that's likely to get you killed. Mesmers live off of Blink and Decoy. This leaves mesmers with one free utility slot to take all of their unique support skills. While the mesmer can, in theory, support a zerg in a lot of ways, in practice they get maybe one or two niche utilities and that is the end of it. Mesmers can do anything, just not a lot of it.

    1- I never use greatsword in zerg fights and never will, even a ranger can do it better and thats the least wanted spec for a zerg fight, not enough aoe even with mirage, plus trying to burst someone in the middle of a fight its pointless.
    2- you hit the nail here, we have a lot we can offer, but its so outshined by other specs it's worthless, so we can only do focus pulls, and get players inside a keep, thats it. I don't use decoy beacause even while in stealth you can get downed by a few aoe attacks or a rev burst. But blink is mandatory, because of the lack of range we got right now.

    Chrono is hit especially hard now that they don't have Self-Shattering and good shatters anymore. All of the mesmer specs work well for solo and small scale, but in large scale it don't translate up well.

  • @Straegen.2938 said:
    Odd that a lot of commanders now run Chrono if it sucks so badly

    Chrono commander was a thing before the nerf. After it is worse than most classes for commanding. If someone still does it, tell that person to switch to core ranger.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It isn't that Chronos don't have any decent zerg support. They've got Feedback, Portal, Temporal Curtain, Null Field, Illusion of Life, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Distraction, Time Warp, Gravity Well, Mass Invisibility, and Well of Precognition. But, the support doesn't tell the whole story. There's two things that are really lacking, which is why i'm reluctant to take mesmer into WvW.

    feedback: guardians can do this with shield 5, less cd, plus they bring so much more utilty and support to the table.

    portal: portal bombs are impossible in this meta, we can only get people up a castle/tower wall, anyway it's still somewhat usefull.

    temporal curtain: the only thing usefull and unique, but with 25 secs of cd, and beeing so predictable its meh.

    illusion of life: talked about this one already, good on papers but it's impossible to use properly, way too much casting time, between the cleave and powercreep it's really hard to land, not mentioning warclaws insta killing downed too.

    mantras: the stability and condi cleanse mantra ar ok, but guards do that much better and far easier and they bring more to the table, mantra of distraction works pretty well in big fights if necros use corruption to take away stability.

    mass invisibility: talked about this one earlier too, its worthless, not enough stealth, only affects 10 players, and scrappers are way better for this one, we lost veil too since those stupid scrapper changes.

    well of precognition: this one its not that bad but still outshined by guardian's weapon skills.

    (1): No good ranged damage options. Other than the occasional Phantasmal Berserker and Mirror Blade, the mesmer doesn't have much to offer on offense. The Greatsword auto is terrible, mesmers have poor AoE, and those illusions die really fast in a zerg.
    (2): Bringing all of the support skills and traits is a terrible build that's likely to get you killed. Mesmers live off of Blink and Decoy. This leaves mesmers with one free utility slot to take all of their unique support skills. While the mesmer can, in theory, support a zerg in a lot of ways, in practice they get maybe one or two niche utilities and that is the end of it. Mesmers can do anything, just not a lot of it.

    1- I never use greatsword in zerg fights and never will, even a ranger can do it better and thats the least wanted spec for a zerg fight, not enough aoe even with mirage, plus trying to burst someone in the middle of a fight its pointless.
    2- you hit the nail here, we have a lot we can offer, but its so outshined by other specs it's worthless, so we can only do focus pulls, and get players inside a keep, thats it. I don't use decoy beacause even while in stealth you can get downed by a few aoe attacks or a rev burst. But blink is mandatory, because of the lack of range we got right now.

    Chrono is hit especially hard now that they don't have Self-Shattering and good shatters anymore. All of the mesmer specs work well for solo and small scale, but in large scale it don't translate up well.

    When it comes to zerg support, you don't need to be the best at it. Those utilities are still there, and they're still helpful even if similar roles can also be fulfilled by another class.

    The biggest issue that I can see is that it is ONLY utilities that offer any sort of zerg support. The mesmer weapon skills are all about blocks and illusions, with maybe one CC skill thrown in. They're great for dueling, but they don't have any big movers in there. The shatters, again, focus on a single player and either do damage, CC, or block (diversion) This leaves a big hole in the mesmer philosophy: the tricky class has no trickery in their weapons. The mesmer needs to use their utilities for all of their weird effects, including mobility and stealth.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    No, it's too op. Needs nurf.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    What we need is a glamour mesmer with a buffed null field in this boonspam meta.

  • @Straegen.2938 said:
    Odd that a lot of commanders now run Chrono if it sucks so badly

    The only time I see it is if it's a pug commander and they're usually in full tank gear just so they don't die. It's a great class for commanding because there's very little to do so most of your time can be used for marking places to run and watching enemy movements. Other than that, it doesn't do anything. Not sure why it's so difficult just to make Chrono a boon-ripping class in wvw, a niche that is very under served atm

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It isn't that Chronos don't have any decent zerg support. They've got Feedback, Portal, Temporal Curtain, Null Field, Illusion of Life, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Distraction, Time Warp, Gravity Well, Mass Invisibility, and Well of Precognition. But, the support doesn't tell the whole story. There's two things that are really lacking, which is why i'm reluctant to take mesmer into WvW.

    feedback: guardians can do this with shield 5, less cd, plus they bring so much more utilty and support to the table.

    portal: portal bombs are impossible in this meta, we can only get people up a castle/tower wall, anyway it's still somewhat usefull.

    temporal curtain: the only thing usefull and unique, but with 25 secs of cd, and beeing so predictable its meh.

    illusion of life: talked about this one already, good on papers but it's impossible to use properly, way too much casting time, between the cleave and powercreep it's really hard to land, not mentioning warclaws insta killing downed too.

    mantras: the stability and condi cleanse mantra ar ok, but guards do that much better and far easier and they bring more to the table, mantra of distraction works pretty well in big fights if necros use corruption to take away stability.

    mass invisibility: talked about this one earlier too, its worthless, not enough stealth, only affects 10 players, and scrappers are way better for this one, we lost veil too since those stupid scrapper changes.

    well of precognition: this one its not that bad but still outshined by guardian's weapon skills.

    (1): No good ranged damage options. Other than the occasional Phantasmal Berserker and Mirror Blade, the mesmer doesn't have much to offer on offense. The Greatsword auto is terrible, mesmers have poor AoE, and those illusions die really fast in a zerg.
    (2): Bringing all of the support skills and traits is a terrible build that's likely to get you killed. Mesmers live off of Blink and Decoy. This leaves mesmers with one free utility slot to take all of their unique support skills. While the mesmer can, in theory, support a zerg in a lot of ways, in practice they get maybe one or two niche utilities and that is the end of it. Mesmers can do anything, just not a lot of it.

    1- I never use greatsword in zerg fights and never will, even a ranger can do it better and thats the least wanted spec for a zerg fight, not enough aoe even with mirage, plus trying to burst someone in the middle of a fight its pointless.
    2- you hit the nail here, we have a lot we can offer, but its so outshined by other specs it's worthless, so we can only do focus pulls, and get players inside a keep, thats it. I don't use decoy beacause even while in stealth you can get downed by a few aoe attacks or a rev burst. But blink is mandatory, because of the lack of range we got right now.

    Chrono is hit especially hard now that they don't have Self-Shattering and good shatters anymore. All of the mesmer specs work well for solo and small scale, but in large scale it don't translate up well.

    When it comes to zerg support, you don't need to be the best at it. Those utilities are still there, and they're still helpful even if similar roles can also be fulfilled by another class.

    The biggest issue that I can see is that it is ONLY utilities that offer any sort of zerg support. The mesmer weapon skills are all about blocks and illusions, with maybe one CC skill thrown in. They're great for dueling, but they don't have any big movers in there. The shatters, again, focus on a single player and either do damage, CC, or block (diversion) This leaves a big hole in the mesmer philosophy: the tricky class has no trickery in their weapons. The mesmer needs to use their utilities for all of their weird effects, including mobility and stealth.

    of course m8, also you don't have to be the best dps, you can just roll ranger and pew pew some idiot from the backline, but that's only viable when you follow a pugmander, or you play casually with friends, real wvw guilds with organized groups won't let you bring whatever you want, they need the best possible class for each job, mesmer used to have it's own job, now pof specs replaced every single job chrono could do, and mesmer became a mediocre back up for each of this specs or a strictly roaming class.
    holo/scrapper give tons more of stealth
    renegade brings better boons overall to the table
    fb is a better support overall
    and our last job was simply gutted (im talking about backline cc chronos)

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    I don't think anyone disagrees with the onset or general concerns. The class has some issues fitting into roles in WvW and the nerfs to Chrono went overboard (probably because of PvE issues, raids in particular, and in how Chrono kept being used quite alot just for its spec-unique resets).

    The problems that caused were hard to adress for that reason (the resets themselves being the theme, or the time manipulation it was meant to respresent, even alacrity has been adressed and readressed over and over so it has been obvious that it has been causing the developers balance concerns), yet at the same time, the way they have adressed the class by poking at everything else around instead has certainly become a real and creeping problem for WvW now. It's similar to Rangers in PvE in a way where the big pink elephant is the frost spirit but they are slaughtering everything else around it instead. So yeah, a longwinded way of just agreeing that the Chrono changes have gone overboard and have been misdirected.

    I've liked both the support chrono and the interrupt-damage chrono.

    However, where there may be some disagreement and things to discuss is how deeply this affects the class overall. Finding a good spot for every spec (not class) everywhere is nigh impossible and when people say that Mesmers have no real roles now anymore I think they go a bit overboard too. Chrono may have been axed but the core role of Mesmers in WvW have always been to provide some unique support and then find another role to mimic to a lesser degree. There are definately Mesmer builds that can do this in WvW still, even at larger Scale and you can still approach it from a support perspective. Losing aspects of its role there is no different from how they've treated Engineers for example. A big chunk was taken out of the Scrapper and made it less diverse and fun but it still has role, albeit lessened. I'm more concerned with the future of the class than the present, even with the axe of Chrono-diversity.

    So I'll admit that I'll miss some of my Chrono builds as well but there still remains a role for Chrono (admittedly a boring one, but it's there) and there are easily other things that you can do with the class on other builds that are given less credit than is fair here. Greatsword Mirages are better than what is being given credit here for example. It still has plenty of non-reflectables, is fun to play and offers something different within the class. It may not be as strong as eg., an Ele at being played similar to an Ele but it does well enough while still providing even a large group with choice niche support. Mesmers still seem well-received in most groups to a reasonable degree and at most scales, overall.

    Then, of course, seeing Chrono repurposed and brought back into a better balance again is something I'm sure we'd all like. It's certainly possible but it means slaying some elephants and picking up the pieces from there.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm sorry, your class has been discontinued for this game mode. Please reroll to Firebrand.

    We are sorry for any inconvenice caused, please do not call again. click.

  • @kraai.7265 said:

    • Focus pull: the only thing left for us to do, the only unique skill related to our class that no other can do better, and it's not enough to make us usefull in any way.

    Jus a reminder that FB has this on their tome, so nope.
    The only uniqness that remains is the killable Continuum Split (F4), as all your mechanic resources it can be easly killable.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xion.5694 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    • Focus pull: the only thing left for us to do, the only unique skill related to our class that no other can do better, and it's not enough to make us usefull in any way.

    Jus a reminder that FB has this on their tome, so nope.
    The only uniqness that remains is the killable Continuum Split (F4), as all your mechanic resources it can be easly killable.

    Firebrand pull isn't half what the mes can do, crocodile tears detected

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    Chronos okay. Just play DPS with Dueling + Chaos. I don't want to share the exact build because it is connected to other people and guilds not much related to me.

    You already have Illusion of life (saves a few people), double grav (kills a few people), veil (stealths whole zerg), shield 5 (stuns all enemies) with plenty of other choices to be more useful than a few players. And a class that is worth than a few players is viable, for example rangers, dps engis and thieves struggle killing 1 person alone in a zerg fight, even if they down one, they can't finish him. Chrono destroys dozens of them with just gravs, shield 5s and pulls, maybe GS shatter combos if you opt for that build.

    Its just simple math: Save a few people + kill a few people = you're worth more than a few people.

    Yes boonshare chrono was easier to play and you might miss it with all your heart, but Chrono itself is compeletely viable in WvW. The spec being realint on another traitline is not acceptable balancing though but I am just countering your arguments of Chrono being dead rather than discussing that topic.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Chronos okay. Just play DPS with Dueling + Chaos. I don't want to share the exact build because it is connected to other people and guilds not much related to me.

    You already have Illusion of life (saves a few people), double grav (kills a few people), veil (stealths whole zerg), shield 5 (stuns all enemies) with plenty of other choices to be more useful than a few players. And a class that is worth than a few players is viable, for example rangers, dps engis and thieves struggle killing 1 person alone in a zerg fight, even if they down one, they can't finish him. Chrono destroys dozens of them with just gravs, shield 5s and pulls, maybe GS shatter combos if you opt for that build.

    Its just simple math: Save a few people + kill a few people = you're worth more than a few people.

    Yes boonshare chrono was easier to play and you might miss it with all your heart, but Chrono itself is compeletely viable in WvW. The spec being realint on another traitline is not acceptable balancing though but I am just countering your arguments of Chrono being dead rather than discussing that topic.

    Lol it's si funny when people reply without Even reading
    Veil: You mean that 2 seconds stealth with a huge visual tell? No thx commanders prefer sceappers for that massive smoke field with no visual clues.
    iol: as i stated is a stupid skill, between warclaws and powercreep that skill has so much delay it almost never works as intended.
    Double grav well: are You kidding me ? I just stated it's impossible to land one with the one clone requirement, do You Even play mesmer? i tried every single setup i could in order to generate clones in the middle of zerg fights, even the retaliation on clones trait, you know what happens? they get destroyed almost at the same time they are casted.
    Greatsword: m8 i already talked about gs in zerg, its as usefull as a shortbow soulbeast, You can't defend yourself at all, thats why everyone uses scepter, same Range dmg but with a free hand and a block, gs only works for roaming.

    And btw if what i want back is boonshare i would ask for signets rework, but if You have read what i'm posting My complains revolve around cc dps Chrono(that dueling-chaos-chrono build you are talking about), no one is expecting boonshare to come back. Also i was always talking about organized groups, i already know that when someone plays casually it doesent really matter which Build ir class he is using.

    Plz next time You try school Simeone take the time to read what he's saying before writing, it's so infuriating to get this kind of replies. All of what You said is completely inaccurate and was already adressed in my original post

    And if You still disagree go Build a Chrono try to "save some people, kill some others" with that joke of a res skills, and that single Gravity well, try to land that stupid iol skill in between warclaws finishes, and try not to get destroyed landing that single Gravity well with Focus pull, without on demand distortion, stability or heals, hope your fb keeps right beside You at all times.(because in case You don't know it has a really short Range, we aren't like backline eles throwing meteors)

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Chronos okay. Just play DPS with Dueling + Chaos. I don't want to share the exact build because it is connected to other people and guilds not much related to me.

    You already have Illusion of life (saves a few people), double grav (kills a few people), veil (stealths whole zerg), shield 5 (stuns all enemies) with plenty of other choices to be more useful than a few players. And a class that is worth than a few players is viable, for example rangers, dps engis and thieves struggle killing 1 person alone in a zerg fight, even if they down one, they can't finish him. Chrono destroys dozens of them with just gravs, shield 5s and pulls, maybe GS shatter combos if you opt for that build.

    Its just simple math: Save a few people + kill a few people = you're worth more than a few people.

    Yes boonshare chrono was easier to play and you might miss it with all your heart, but Chrono itself is compeletely viable in WvW. The spec being realint on another traitline is not acceptable balancing though but I am just countering your arguments of Chrono being dead rather than discussing that topic.

    Lol it's si funny when people reply without Even reading
    Veil: You mean that 2 seconds stealth with a huge visual tell? No thx commanders prefer sceappers for that massive smoke field with no visual clues.
    iol: as i stated is a stupid skill, between warclaws and powercreep that skill has so much delay it almost never works as intended.
    Double grav well: are You kidding me ? I just stated it's impossible to land one with the one clone requirement, do You Even play mesmer? i tried every single setup i could in order to generate clones in the middle of zerg fights, even the retaliation on clones trait, you know what happens? they get destroyed almost at the same time they are casted.
    Greatsword: m8 i already talked about gs in zerg, its as usefull as a shortbow soulbeast, You can't defend yourself at all, thats why everyone uses scepter, same Range dmg but with a free hand and a block, gs only works for roaming.

    And btw if what i want back is boonshare i would ask for signets rework, but if You have read what i'm posting My complains revolve around cc dps Chrono(that dueling-chaos-chrono build you are talking about), no one is expecting boonshare to come back. Also i was always talking about organized groups, i already know that when someone plays casually it doesent really matter which Build ir class he is using.

    Plz next time You try school Simeone take the time to read what he's saying before writing, it's so infuriating to get this kind of replies. All of what You said is completely inaccurate and was already adressed in my original post

    And if You still disagree go Build a Chrono try to "save some people, kill some others" with that joke of a res skills, and that single Gravity well, try to land that stupid iol skill in between warclaws finishes, and try not to get destroyed landing that single Gravity well with Focus pull, without on demand distortion, stability or heals, hope your fb keeps right beside You at all times.(because in case You don't know it has a really short Range, we aren't like backline eles throwing meteors)

    I said dueling, you can just dodge to summon a clone and shatter afterwards before the clone gets destroyed.

    I am sorry but it is literally impossible to fail this unless you click both your dodge bar and shatter with your mouse, neither of which you should do.

    Yes scepter is the more mainstream build but I did mention greatsword as a variant MEANING it isn't the main build but it still can work if you know all the greatsword mechanics. Indeed scepter and focus are easy peasy to use and will fit melee train better, but unfortunately there are fights when following open commanders where you get outpressured by enemy, can't finish downs and greatsword would be more useful.

    And if you call both gravity and illusion of life joke skills, I don't know, maybe stop shooting them around reactively and read a few seconds ahead in a fight like a good player? Like I said, chrono is harder now. You have to be better than on other classes.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @kraai.7265 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Chronos okay. Just play DPS with Dueling + Chaos. I don't want to share the exact build because it is connected to other people and guilds not much related to me.

    You already have Illusion of life (saves a few people), double grav (kills a few people), veil (stealths whole zerg), shield 5 (stuns all enemies) with plenty of other choices to be more useful than a few players. And a class that is worth than a few players is viable, for example rangers, dps engis and thieves struggle killing 1 person alone in a zerg fight, even if they down one, they can't finish him. Chrono destroys dozens of them with just gravs, shield 5s and pulls, maybe GS shatter combos if you opt for that build.

    Its just simple math: Save a few people + kill a few people = you're worth more than a few people.

    Yes boonshare chrono was easier to play and you might miss it with all your heart, but Chrono itself is compeletely viable in WvW. The spec being realint on another traitline is not acceptable balancing though but I am just countering your arguments of Chrono being dead rather than discussing that topic.

    Lol it's si funny when people reply without Even reading
    Veil: You mean that 2 seconds stealth with a huge visual tell? No thx commanders prefer sceappers for that massive smoke field with no visual clues.
    iol: as i stated is a stupid skill, between warclaws and powercreep that skill has so much delay it almost never works as intended.
    Double grav well: are You kidding me ? I just stated it's impossible to land one with the one clone requirement, do You Even play mesmer? i tried every single setup i could in order to generate clones in the middle of zerg fights, even the retaliation on clones trait, you know what happens? they get destroyed almost at the same time they are casted.
    Greatsword: m8 i already talked about gs in zerg, its as usefull as a shortbow soulbeast, You can't defend yourself at all, thats why everyone uses scepter, same Range dmg but with a free hand and a block, gs only works for roaming.

    And btw if what i want back is boonshare i would ask for signets rework, but if You have read what i'm posting My complains revolve around cc dps Chrono(that DOMI-chaos-chrono build you are talking about), no one is expecting boonshare to come back. Also i was always talking about organized groups, i already know that when someone plays casually it doesent really matter which Build ir class he is using.

    Plz next time You try school Simeone take the time to read what he's saying before writing, it's so infuriating to get this kind of replies. All of what You said is completely inaccurate and was already adressed in my original post

    And if You still disagree go Build a Chrono try to "save some people, kill some others" with that joke of a res skills, and that single Gravity well, try to land that stupid iol skill in between warclaws finishes, and try not to get destroyed landing that single Gravity well with Focus pull, without on demand distortion, stability or heals, hope your fb keeps right beside You at all times.(because in case You don't know it has a really short Range, we aren't like backline eles throwing meteors)

    I said dueling, you can just dodge to summon a clone and shatter afterwards before the clone gets destroyed.

    I am sorry but it is literally impossible to fail this unless you click both your dodge bar and shatter with your mouse, neither of which you should do.

    really m8 start to read the whole post, already talked about dueling too, chrono need chaos (survability, ci, random boons) and domination (boonstrip, cc , damage on interrupts) dueling is a roaming trait line, used for dueling builds not zerg fights, and PLZ START READING WHAT I WRITE DONT MAKE ME WASTE MY TIME.

    "i tried every single setup i could in order to generate clones in the middle of zerg fights, even the retaliation on clones trait, you know what happens? they get destroyed almost at the same time they are casted."

    i litteraly wrote this 3 minutes ago you didn't even read it, ill explain it better for you, you are in a zerg fight, necros start to spam the red sea, revs use their burst skills, you are in close range already in combat (so you can prok clones on dodges) and those aoe from necros, or rev burst skills reks them before you can even react or o use f4, also i can see you dont even play mesmer, so ill explain the double gravity well for you, in order to use that you have to first cast grav well, wait for the last second before cast and use f4 in the middle.
    So you are actually recommending me to enter combat AGAINST A ZERG dodge to prok a clone, start using gravity well (2 sec casting) use f4 and then use the second well?
    Do you understand what's wrong now? in those 2-3 seconds of precast the clone you had for triggering f4 gets destroyed!!!

    Plz m8, READ!!! if not, stop commenting, you clearly don't know well how chrono / mes works. saying gs can work in zerg fights... So don't make me waste my time, trying to convince me a class you don't even play works.

    And if what you really meant is to generate 3 clones so f4 can last long enough to cast gravity well that confirms you don't even play mesmer on pve, or you never been in a large fight with a chrono build. (you will lose the first clones before even casting the second or third one)

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