Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework

Hi Anet,
Can you tell us something about the new death magic rework incoming?
It would be really great to have a discussion about it so that we could actually give feedback or propose new ideas.

<1

Comments

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Hi Anet,
    Can you tell us something about the new death magic rework incoming?
    It would be really great to have a discussion about it so that we could actually give feedback or propose new ideas.

    Where did you hear a death magic rework is comming?

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    Were still gonna start with 0 lifeforce and get snowballed.

  • a entire rework of necro is needed, not just one trait line. but that would mean the devs would have to care but it is Obv that the devs hate necro, so it will never happen

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.

    • Soul comprehension is now replaced by lich's mantle. Lich's mantle: reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
    • Putrid defense now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
    • Armored shroud now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

    Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.

  • I just hope that they don’t change unholy sanctuary in a Negative way,

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Hi Anet,
    Can you tell us something about the new death magic rework incoming?
    It would be really great to have a discussion about it so that we could actually give feedback or propose new ideas.

    Where did you hear a death magic rework is comming?

    They mention it on the upcoming balance changes idea thread, together with a rework to the Warrior's tactics line

    Bite me.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.

    • Soul comprehension is now replaced by lich's mantle. Lich's mantle: reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
    • Putrid defense now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
    • Armored shroud now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

    Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.

    Tempting fate!

  • Watch, they completely skip over Soul Comprehension with this rework.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm more interested when the patch will go live.
    Next Tuesday on prologue release?
    Or the week after?

  • @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Hi Anet,
    Can you tell us something about the new death magic rework incoming?
    It would be really great to have a discussion about it so that we could actually give feedback or propose new ideas.

    Where did you hear a death magic rework is comming?

    It was mentioned in this thread in the top paragraph.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/86662/future-potential-wvw-centric-balance-changes-september-6th-2019/p1

    including (as some of you guessed) significant changes to the warrior's Tactics line as well as the necromancer's Death Magic line, ranger sword changes and more.

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Watch, they completely skip over Soul Comprehension with this rework.

    If nothing, Soul Comprehension is the one thing that I hope they change lol.
    Personally I like the new dark defiance and its synergies with blood magic wells for lots of protections with blighters boon.
    Makes us rather tanky and sustainy.
    I still use the Divine Soldier build from time to time in WvW.
    Not that it helps too much when hard focused, still die easy without skills to kite but its fun to have the options and synergies to play on different builds and themes.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PS0AEd3lZwSYIsDWJe0TdtLA-zVhYBJEoQSNKzKID4E7c4CFAHCPQRQmChOlAlqAU5A-w

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.

    • Soul comprehension is now replaced by lich's mantle. Lich's mantle: reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
    • Putrid defense now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
    • Armored shroud now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

    Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.

    If we lose the 50% damage reduction from shroud, necro could actually get something like actual active defenses like dashes, evades, blocks, invulnerability.
    Though, ppl also said that if shrould would become f1-f5 instead of one button, necro could get more meaningful defenses and see what we got.^^

    "I´m not big on sermons nor words, Broken bones teach better lessons and speak for themselves."

  • @Arzurag.7506 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.

    • Soul comprehension is now replaced by lich's mantle. Lich's mantle: reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
    • Putrid defense now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
    • Armored shroud now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

    Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.


    If we lose the 50% damage reduction from shroud, necro could actually get something like actual active defenses like dashes, evades, blocks, invulnerability.
    Though, ppl also said that if shrould would become f1-f5 instead of one button, necro could get more meaningful defenses and see what we got.^^

    Shroud is an active defense, it's just not as effective as stuff like evades and blocks.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    4s to be in line with other invulns.

    Triggers the same way, but halts life force drain for the duration and all incoming damage instead restores life force.

  • @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    4s to be in line with other invulns.

    Triggers the same way, but halts life force drain for the duration and all incoming damage instead restores life force.

    that would be too long.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    4s to be in line with other invulns.

    Triggers the same way, but halts life force drain for the duration and all incoming damage instead restores life force.

    that would be too long.

    Then make defiant stance, endure pain, stone signet, etc. 2s.

  • @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    4s to be in line with other invulns.

    Triggers the same way, but halts life force drain for the duration and all incoming damage instead restores life force.

    that would be too long.

    Then make defiant stance, endure pain, stone signet, etc. 2s.

    those have long cd's.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even if they did talk to us about it I feel people would fail to differentiate the difference between them talking to us and taking it on board and them talking to us and doing what we want. Subtle difference in wording but big difference in application.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    The good part about a Death Magic rework is, that even if they completely screw it up and the new Death Magic is completely useless and no one in their right mind would ever run it, that just means nothing changed from how it's been since launch.

    So I'm quite unconcerned about it.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.

    I would even be okay with that. Necro has been in this awkward spot of being bad but just so viable so there aren't enough complaints for far too long, basically always.
    If they screw up that badly, maybe it will lead to an outcry that will bring about proper defenses for Necro, as well as competitive damage and utility with other professions.

    Really, just any change for Necro is a good change at this point. No matter how good or bad.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    I run tanky condi core necro in wvw with curses 233, soul reaping 331 and death magic 223 with antitoxin runes. Shrouded removal is insane with antitoxin rune. I hope they dont nerf my anti condi tank.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    The good part about a Death Magic rework is, that even if they completely screw it up and the new Death Magic is completely useless and no one in their right mind would ever run it, that just means nothing changed from how it's been since launch.

    So I'm quite unconcerned about it.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.

    I would even be okay with that. Necro has been in this awkward spot of being bad but just so viable so there aren't enough complaints for far too long, basically always.
    If they screw up that badly, maybe it will lead to an outcry that will bring about proper defenses for Necro, as well as competitive damage and utility with other professions.

    Really, just any change for Necro is a good change at this point. No matter how good or bad.

    Truthfully, outside of the fact that the changes that I list are kinda crappy, what concern me the most is that there wouldn't be any change to the minion traits. I'll never say it enough, 5 traits dedicated to minion is way to many considering that the special mechanic don't naturally summon minions. If minions were a part of the necromancer's special mechanic since launch, this amount of traits wouldn't bother me, but it's a fact that minions are a very minor part of the kit of the necromancer and that they aren't tied in any way to life force/shroud. Implicitly, I critic the fact that they will most likely not touch what need to be touched on death magic.

  • @Flumek.9043 said:
    Were still gonna start with 0 lifeforce and get snowballed.

    "Dude where are you going?"

    "I gotta kill some mosquitoes and rabbits real quick. I'll catch up on my Warclaw. "

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Its too frequent. Its not healthy for game.

  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Ya, what XECOR just said,

    But also, Unholy Sanctuary is a good trait. All it needs is a boost to it's healing regeneration, or a a slight functional change....like if you leave Shroud while under unholy sanctuary proc, then you gain the difference of the life force remaining into health.

    But please don't change the main functionality of this trait....which is that it puts you in shroud on death blow.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Its too frequent. Its not healthy for game.

    mesmers have it and warriors have it. If they can why can-t we have it on a balanced timer?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Ya, what XECOR just said,

    But also, Unholy Sanctuary is a good trait. All it needs is a boost to it's healing regeneration, or a a slight functional change....like if you leave Shroud while under unholy sanctuary proc, then you gain the difference of the life force remaining into health.

    But please don't change the main functionality of this trait....which is that it puts you in shroud on death blow.

    I think the fact that it put you in shroud on a death blow is in itself a bad thing because it force the shroud mechanism to be a defensive mechanism. Indirectly it prevent the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly "specialize" in a role. The very existence of this trait create an inate polyvalence of the necromancer which justify poor performances (compared to other professions) in every fields.

    I, personnally would like to see e-specs where the skills of the special mechanism aren't defensive so that there is a true possibility to have a glass canon necromancer and this traits just prevent something like this from happening. Just like dedicating 5 traits to minion's efficiency when minions aren't even related to the necromancer's special mechanism isn't something healthy, having a trait that force the special mechanism into a defensive form isn't healthy as well. It's fine if a trait grant some defense to the special mechanism, it's not fine if a trait force the special mechanism to be a defensive skill whatever e-spec you get into the futur.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I think the fact that it put you in shroud on a death blow is in itself a bad thing because it force the shroud mechanism to be a defensive mechanism. Indirectly it prevent the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly "specialize" in a role. The very existence of this trait create an inate polyvalence of the necromancer which justify poor performances (compared to other professions) in every fields.

    "Forcing the shroud to be a defensive mechanism, Indirectly it prevents the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly 'specialize' in a role."
    This isn't very analytical. It's vague and doesn't properly explain what Unholy Sanctuary actually does. It doesn't "force" you to be defensive. It doesn't prevent you from specializing into anything either.

    Unholy Sanctuary places you in shroud when you would have otherwise died. If you had no life force when this effect was supposed to proc, then you would die. That's pretty simple to understand.

    In the event you do have life force, you are placed in shroud, and Unholy Sanctuary BUYS YOU TIME so that when you exit shroud your cool downs have ticked by and can be used to bring you back up in health. This is the reason it's a good trait. It's just nobody really understands what the fine print means. To use Unholy Sanctuary effectively, you have to have life force. What you do in shroud while proc'd by Unholy Sanctuary depends on what you want to do. You can either counter pressure, or kite away and run. whatever. Regardless it's purpose is to buy you time for your skills to come off cool down when you leave shroud again. and that is a BIG sustain boost. I've been running Death Magic with Unholy Sanctuary for close to 2 years now. I'm no longer surprised that i can take 3v1's in WvW.

    also it has a 30 second cooldown. Do you know how busted that is? a reset every 30 seconds is really kitten good...but people have no idea how to use it because MOST people have trouble building life force in combat. That's an L2P thing and not an issue with the mechanic of the trait.

    I, personally would like to see e-specs where the skills of the special mechanism aren't defensive so that there is a true possibility to have a glass canon necromancer and this traits just prevent something like this from happening. Just like dedicating 5 traits to minion's efficiency when minions aren't even related to the necromancer's special mechanism isn't something healthy, having a trait that force the special mechanism into a defensive form isn't healthy as well. It's fine if a trait grant some defense to the special mechanism, it's not fine if a trait force the special mechanism to be a defensive skill whatever e-spec you get into the futur.

    We do have "Glass Cannon" necromancer....that's the meta right now is glass cannon reaper. Death Magic isn't in the meta at all. And the current glass cannon reaper is AWFUL. It's based on running yolo into a teamfight and then yoloing back out like a proxy condi thief.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I think the fact that it put you in shroud on a death blow is in itself a bad thing because it force the shroud mechanism to be a defensive mechanism. Indirectly it prevent the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly "specialize" in a role. The very existence of this trait create an inate polyvalence of the necromancer which justify poor performances (compared to other professions) in every fields.

    "Forcing the shroud to be a defensive mechanism, Indirectly it prevents the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly 'specialize' in a role."
    This isn't very analytical. It's vague and doesn't properly explain what Unholy Sanctuary actually does. It doesn't "force" you to be defensive. It doesn't prevent you from specializing into anything either.

    How isn't it very analytical? The trait require the shroud to be a defensive mechanism whatever your specialization, so it indeed force the shroud to be a defensive mechanism.

    Furthermore, the fact that the shroud is the necromancer's only defensive mechanism mean that whatever happen you are going to have it. So whatever happen you are forced to sacrifice efficiency in damage and support to compensate for the fact that you run your best (and only) defensive skill. You just can't "sacrifice" the shroud for more damage or more support and in fact scourge is such a problem because ANet wasn't willing to go all out and make some "sacrifice" on the shades, keeping the necromancer in an awkward state where he isn't able to be really good at anything but always do (poorly) a bit of everything.

    Unholy Sanctuary places you in shroud when you would have otherwise died. If you had no life force when this effect was supposed to proc, then you would die. That's pretty simple to understand.

    Well, you seem to forget that it also give you a kind of regeneration while in shroud. Anyway, I understand pretty well what it does, thank you. You could very well replace the fact that it put you in shroud by the gain of a barrier allowing you to gain this bit of survivability without forcing the necromancer to have a defense in built in your main mechanism whatever it's specialization.

    In the event you do have life force, you are placed in shroud, and Unholy Sanctuary BUYS YOU TIME so that when you exit shroud your cool downs have ticked by and can be used to bring you back up in health. This is the reason it's a good trait. It's just nobody really understands what the fine print means. To use Unholy Sanctuary effectively, you have to have life force. What you do in shroud while proc'd by Unholy Sanctuary depends on what you want to do. You can either counter pressure, or kite away and run. whatever. Regardless it's purpose is to buy you time for your skills to come off cool down when you leave shroud again. and that is a BIG sustain boost. I've been running Death Magic with Unholy Sanctuary for close to 2 years now. I'm no longer surprised that i can take 3v1's in WvW.

    also it has a 30 second cooldown. Do you know how busted that is? a reset every 30 seconds is really kitten good...but people have no idea how to use it because MOST people have trouble building life force in combat. That's an L2P thing and not an issue with the mechanic of the trait.

    I'm sure you like this trait very much, but whatever you say, the fact is that this trait limit potential developpement for the necromancer. And as long as the necromancer will be limited in this aspect, people will continue to complain that the necromancer suck in PvE and is to strong in PvP/WvW. To make a profession as efficient in all gamemodes without being overbearing is the path of balance. To cling onto a trait or mechanisms fonctionnality because "it work well for me in WvW, don't change it or just tweak number at worst" isn't the way to balance things.

    I, personally would like to see e-specs where the skills of the special mechanism aren't defensive so that there is a true possibility to have a glass canon necromancer and this traits just prevent something like this from happening. Just like dedicating 5 traits to minion's efficiency when minions aren't even related to the necromancer's special mechanism isn't something healthy, having a trait that force the special mechanism into a defensive form isn't healthy as well. It's fine if a trait grant some defense to the special mechanism, it's not fine if a trait force the special mechanism to be a defensive skill whatever e-spec you get into the futur.

    We do have "Glass Cannon" necromancer....that's the meta right now is glass cannon reaper. Death Magic isn't in the meta at all. And the current glass cannon reaper is AWFUL. It's based on running yolo into a teamfight and then yoloing back out like a proxy condi thief.

    We do not have a glass cannon necromancer! We do have slightly squishier necromancer builds that deal a lot of damage but they aren't glass cannon because they always have their main and only defensive mechanism on them. It like you would say: "I'm running a glass cannon warrior and then say it's a Spell breaker." A glass cannon sacrifice all defense to deal damage above other, the necromancer just can't do that because the shroud is set to be the whole of it's defense. The truth is that the necromancer's potential is and have always been limited by the polyvalence of the shroud and ANet always take this polyvalence into account in it's necromancer's balance.

    NB.: You shouldn't look at things from a narrow point of view, considering a single gamemode or just players against players. You should look at the game as a whole if you want to talk "balance". PvP/WvW offer an environment where the necromancer's tools can shine, there is plenty of boons to corrupt, plenty of conditions to play with and, above all, it's a good things to not be overly specialized in this environment since it give you good resilience and efficiency to rock, paper and scisor. In PvE the environment is totally different, boons to corrupt are scarce, conditions to play with are almost inexistent and group need overly specialized professions in order to seek maximum efficiency of team play. The strength of the necromancer that bloom in PvP/WvW are just hindering him in PvE and any trait that "solidify" those aspect prevent a true state of balance for the necromancer. Worst, it lead the community to complains a bout a lack of efficiency that the developper try clumsily to fix with numbers tweak, ultimately breaking things on one side to achieve a barely "ok" state on the other.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I think the fact that it put you in shroud on a death blow is in itself a bad thing because it force the shroud mechanism to be a defensive mechanism. Indirectly it prevent the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly "specialize" in a role. The very existence of this trait create an inate polyvalence of the necromancer which justify poor performances (compared to other professions) in every fields.

    "Forcing the shroud to be a defensive mechanism, Indirectly it prevents the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly 'specialize' in a role."
    This isn't very analytical. It's vague and doesn't properly explain what Unholy Sanctuary actually does. It doesn't "force" you to be defensive. It doesn't prevent you from specializing into anything either.

    How isn't it very analytical? The trait require the shroud to be a defensive mechanism whatever your specialization, so it indeed force the shroud to be a defensive mechanism.

    Furthermore, the fact that the shroud is the necromancer's only defensive mechanism mean that whatever happen you are going to have it. So whatever happen you are forced to sacrifice efficiency in damage and support to compensate for the fact that you run your best (and only) defensive skill. You just can't "sacrifice" the shroud for more damage or more support and in fact scourge is such a problem because ANet wasn't willing to go all out and make some "sacrifice" on the shades, keeping the necromancer in an awkward state where he isn't able to be really good at anything but always do (poorly) a bit of everything.

    Unholy Sanctuary places you in shroud when you would have otherwise died. If you had no life force when this effect was supposed to proc, then you would die. That's pretty simple to understand.

    Well, you seem to forget that it also give you a kind of regeneration while in shroud. Anyway, I understand pretty well what it does, thank you. You could very well replace the fact that it put you in shroud by the gain of a barrier allowing you to gain this bit of survivability without forcing the necromancer to have a defense in built in your main mechanism whatever it's specialization.

    In the event you do have life force, you are placed in shroud, and Unholy Sanctuary BUYS YOU TIME so that when you exit shroud your cool downs have ticked by and can be used to bring you back up in health. This is the reason it's a good trait. It's just nobody really understands what the fine print means. To use Unholy Sanctuary effectively, you have to have life force. What you do in shroud while proc'd by Unholy Sanctuary depends on what you want to do. You can either counter pressure, or kite away and run. whatever. Regardless it's purpose is to buy you time for your skills to come off cool down when you leave shroud again. and that is a BIG sustain boost. I've been running Death Magic with Unholy Sanctuary for close to 2 years now. I'm no longer surprised that i can take 3v1's in WvW.

    also it has a 30 second cooldown. Do you know how busted that is? a reset every 30 seconds is really kitten good...but people have no idea how to use it because MOST people have trouble building life force in combat. That's an L2P thing and not an issue with the mechanic of the trait.

    I'm sure you like this trait very much, but whatever you say, the fact is that this trait limit potential developpement for the necromancer. And as long as the necromancer will be limited in this aspect, people will continue to complain that the necromancer suck in PvE and is to strong in PvP/WvW. To make a profession as efficient in all gamemodes without being overbearing is the path of balance. To cling onto a trait or mechanisms fonctionnality because "it work well for me in WvW, don't change it or just tweak number at worst" isn't the way to balance things.

    I, personally would like to see e-specs where the skills of the special mechanism aren't defensive so that there is a true possibility to have a glass canon necromancer and this traits just prevent something like this from happening. Just like dedicating 5 traits to minion's efficiency when minions aren't even related to the necromancer's special mechanism isn't something healthy, having a trait that force the special mechanism into a defensive form isn't healthy as well. It's fine if a trait grant some defense to the special mechanism, it's not fine if a trait force the special mechanism to be a defensive skill whatever e-spec you get into the futur.

    We do have "Glass Cannon" necromancer....that's the meta right now is glass cannon reaper. Death Magic isn't in the meta at all. And the current glass cannon reaper is AWFUL. It's based on running yolo into a teamfight and then yoloing back out like a proxy condi thief.

    We do not have a glass cannon necromancer! We do have slightly squishier necromancer builds that deal a lot of damage but they aren't glass cannon because they always have their main and only defensive mechanism on them. It like you would say: "I'm running a glass cannon warrior and then say it's a Spell breaker." A glass cannon sacrifice all defense to deal damage above other, the necromancer just can't do that because the shroud is set to be the whole of it's defense. The truth is that the necromancer's potential is and have always been limited by the polyvalence of the shroud and ANet always take this polyvalence into account in it's necromancer's balance.

    NB.: You shouldn't look at things from a narrow point of view, considering a single gamemode or just players against players. You should look at the game as a whole if you want to talk "balance". PvP/WvW offer an environment where the necromancer's tools can shine, there is plenty of boons to corrupt, plenty of conditions to play with and, above all, it's a good things to not be overly specialized in this environment since it give you good resilience and efficiency to rock, paper and scisor. In PvE the environment is totally different, boons to corrupt are scarce, conditions to play with are almost inexistent and group need overly specialized professions in order to seek maximum efficiency of team play. The strength of the necromancer that bloom in PvP/WvW are just hindering him in PvE and any trait that "solidify" those aspect prevent a true state of balance for the necromancer. Worst, it lead the community to complains a bout a lack of efficiency that the developper try clumsily to fix with numbers tweak, ultimately breaking things on one side to achieve a barely "ok" state on the other.

    Problem is that in GW2 you need some sustain already reaper has a ton of counters, and being unable to reach enemies really sucks unless they get a bit better ways of reaching their enemies with either better ways to reach them or ability to sustain. to me fun is being able to survive long enough to feel useful and not feel like Oh im locked down, because Oh i can't do anything because everyone can hard counter reaper in spvp. Sure we can do great with a firebrand but if they nerf, it would be a nerf for us too.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exzen.2976 said:
    Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

    For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I think the fact that it put you in shroud on a death blow is in itself a bad thing because it force the shroud mechanism to be a defensive mechanism. Indirectly it prevent the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly "specialize" in a role. The very existence of this trait create an inate polyvalence of the necromancer which justify poor performances (compared to other professions) in every fields.

    "Forcing the shroud to be a defensive mechanism, Indirectly it prevents the necromancer and any of it's specialization to truly 'specialize' in a role."
    This isn't very analytical. It's vague and doesn't properly explain what Unholy Sanctuary actually does. It doesn't "force" you to be defensive. It doesn't prevent you from specializing into anything either.

    How isn't it very analytical? The trait require the shroud to be a defensive mechanism whatever your specialization, so it indeed force the shroud to be a defensive mechanism.

    The trait doesn't make shroud a defensive mechanism, shroud is inherently a defensive mechanism by the way it functions.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Furthermore, the fact that the shroud is the necromancer's only defensive mechanism mean that whatever happen you are going to have it.

    Thank you for agreeing with me.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    So whatever happen you are forced to sacrifice efficiency in damage and support to compensate for the fact that you run your best (and only) defensive skill. You just can't "sacrifice" the shroud for more damage or more support and in fact scourge is such a problem because ANet wasn't willing to go all out and make some "sacrifice" on the shades, keeping the necromancer in an awkward state where he isn't able to be really good at anything but always do (poorly) a bit of everything.

    Ah the old "Jack of all trades, and master of none argument." You would do well over in the engineer sub-forum. The trade off between offensive and defensive capabilities happens primarily under stats. Want to be maximum damage? Run berserker's gear. Want maximum Sustain? Run nomad's gear. All classes can do a bit of everything, and all classes have offensive and defensive mechanisms whether they run berserker's gear or nomad's. Some classes excel at certain aspects, while they struggle in others. Necro excels at boon corrupting and dealing massive AOE damage, while struggling at sustain and mobility.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Unholy Sanctuary places you in shroud when you would have otherwise died. If you had no life force when this effect was supposed to proc, then you would die. That's pretty simple to understand.

    Well, you seem to forget that it also give you a kind of regeneration while in shroud. Anyway, I understand pretty well what it does, thank you.

    The regeneration in shroud is mainly so you don't instantly die once you drop out of shroud. It is essentially has the same healing potential as regeneration (the boon), except you have to invest a trait and stats to get maximum effect. I wouldn't say the healing is what defines the trait. If anything the healing needs to be buffed to compete with similar sustain traits.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You could very well replace the fact that it put you in shroud by the gain of a barrier allowing you to gain this bit of survivability without forcing the necromancer to have a defense in built in your main mechanism whatever it's specialization.

    Are you seriously suggesting removing shroud from necro? Why don't you play scourge, or warrior, or holosmith, etc.? Obviously necro is not your class.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    In the event you do have life force, you are placed in shroud, and Unholy Sanctuary BUYS YOU TIME so that when you exit shroud your cool downs have ticked by and can be used to bring you back up in health. This is the reason it's a good trait. It's just nobody really understands what the fine print means. To use Unholy Sanctuary effectively, you have to have life force. What you do in shroud while proc'd by Unholy Sanctuary depends on what you want to do. You can either counter pressure, or kite away and run. whatever. Regardless it's purpose is to buy you time for your skills to come off cool down when you leave shroud again. and that is a BIG sustain boost. I've been running Death Magic with Unholy Sanctuary for close to 2 years now. I'm no longer surprised that i can take 3v1's in WvW.

    also it has a 30 second cooldown. Do you know how busted that is? a reset every 30 seconds is really kitten good...but people have no idea how to use it because MOST people have trouble building life force in combat. That's an L2P thing and not an issue with the mechanic of the trait.

    I'm sure you like this trait very much, but whatever you say, the fact is that this trait limit potential developpement for the necromancer.

    How does it limit development of necromancer? You are investing a lot just by taking death magic. Already, you are committed to building more defensively. Why shouldn't a defensive specialization have a defensive trait? Unholy Sanctuary doesn't make shroud a defensive ability, it just improves the defensive capabilities that already existed with that skill.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    And as long as the necromancer will be limited in this aspect, people will continue to complain that the necromancer suck in PvE and is to strong in PvP/WvW. To make a profession as efficient in all gamemodes without being overbearing is the path of balance. To cling onto a trait or mechanisms fonctionnality because "it work well for me in WvW, don't change it or just tweak number at worst" isn't the way to balance things.

    Literally nobody in high tier PvP complains that necromancer is too strong. Only scourge is meta because of firebrand. In WvW the only thing people complain about is the fact that scourge can cleave 20 people at the same time. That isn't an issue of unholy sanctuary, or the defensive mechanism of shroud and barrier. That is an issue with Sand Savant, which Anet already addressed as an issue.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I, personally would like to see e-specs where the skills of the special mechanism aren't defensive so that there is a true possibility to have a glass canon necromancer and this traits just prevent something like this from happening. Just like dedicating 5 traits to minion's efficiency when minions aren't even related to the necromancer's special mechanism isn't something healthy, having a trait that force the special mechanism into a defensive form isn't healthy as well. It's fine if a trait grant some defense to the special mechanism, it's not fine if a trait force the special mechanism to be a defensive skill whatever e-spec you get into the futur.

    We do have "Glass Cannon" necromancer....that's the meta right now is glass cannon reaper. Death Magic isn't in the meta at all. And the current glass cannon reaper is AWFUL. It's based on running yolo into a teamfight and then yoloing back out like a proxy condi thief.

    We do not have a glass cannon necromancer! We do have slightly squishier necromancer builds that deal a lot of damage but they aren't glass cannon because they always have their main and only defensive mechanism on them. It like you would say: "I'm running a glass cannon warrior and then say it's a Spell breaker." A glass cannon sacrifice all defense to deal damage above other, the necromancer just can't do that because the shroud is set to be the whole of it's defense. The truth is that the necromancer's potential is and have always been limited by the polyvalence of the shroud and ANet always take this polyvalence into account in it's necromancer's balance.

    By your definition, literally no class can be considered a glass cannon. 1. All classes have access to dodge. 2. All classes have some form of defense baked into their skills. Based off what your saying, guardians, mesmers, and thieves, the most bursty classes in the game cannot be glass cannons. Thieves, despite being squishy have access to mobility and stealth, two very powerful defensive mechanisms. Guardian has access to blocks and reflects. Mesmer has access to all of the above.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    NB.: You shouldn't look at things from a narrow point of view, considering a single gamemode or just players against players. You should look at the game as a whole if you want to talk "balance". PvP/WvW offer an environment where the necromancer's tools can shine, there is plenty of boons to corrupt, plenty of conditions to play with and, above all, it's a good things to not be overly specialized in this environment since it give you good resilience and efficiency to rock, paper and scisor. In PvE the environment is totally different, boons to corrupt are scarce, conditions to play with are almost inexistent and group need overly specialized professions in order to seek maximum efficiency of team play. The strength of the necromancer that bloom in PvP/WvW are just hindering him in PvE and any trait that "solidify" those aspect prevent a true state of balance for the necromancer. Worst, it lead the community to complains a bout a lack of efficiency that the developper try clumsily to fix with numbers tweak, ultimately breaking things on one side to achieve a barely "ok" state on the other.

    There exists a split between skills in PvP, WvW, and PvE. This split is purely numbers since there cannot be mechanical splits. Tweaking numbers is absolutely how you would balance one game mode without changing the others. If Anet wanted to, they could make necro relevant in PvE by buffing the damage numbers of necro skills in PvE only. If Anet wanted to make heal scourges more relevant they could increase the healing potential of lifesteal, or make barriers more available and last longer. These changes could occur without even touching PvP/WvW balance. What makes necro good in PvP/WvW has nothing to do with how PvE is balanced. It seems like you are blaming PvP/WvW for preventing necros from being more relevant in raids.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Even if they did talk to us about it I feel people would fail to differentiate the difference between them talking to us and taking it on board and them talking to us and doing what we want. Subtle difference in wording but big difference in application.

    Yeah, I'm kind of happy to just wait and see what they give us for the above reason.

  • @Rashagar.8349 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Even if they did talk to us about it I feel people would fail to differentiate the difference between them talking to us and taking it on board and them talking to us and doing what we want. Subtle difference in wording but big difference in application.

    Yeah, I'm kind of happy to just wait and see what they give us for the above reason.

    I hope we get a massive rework similar to how thieves got changes to their traps.
    Imagine if they gave our minions new looks too 😳

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Ya, what XECOR just said,

    But also, Unholy Sanctuary is a good trait. All it needs is a boost to it's healing regeneration, or a a slight functional change....like if you leave Shroud while under unholy sanctuary proc, then you gain the difference of the life force remaining into health.

    But please don't change the main functionality of this trait....which is that it puts you in shroud on death blow.

    it is pretty frequent but its pretty kitten tiring getting 100-0'd out of shroud cuz it doesn't do kitten against a lot of one shots.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    just make unholy sanctuary a 2 sec invuln upon entering shroud and death magic is now viable.
    ima genius.

    no.

    Why not? also would be appreciated if you give a answer besides no like: No because i think its overpowered or no because the downside outdoes the upside.

    Ya, what XECOR just said,

    But also, Unholy Sanctuary is a good trait. All it needs is a boost to it's healing regeneration, or a a slight functional change....like if you leave Shroud while under unholy sanctuary proc, then you gain the difference of the life force remaining into health.

    But please don't change the main functionality of this trait....which is that it puts you in shroud on death blow.

    it is pretty frequent but its pretty kitten tiring getting 100-0'd out of shroud cuz it doesn't do kitten against a lot of one shots.

    Your getting 1 shot because
    1) you lack the life force necessary to make use of unholy sanctuary
    2) you aren’t dodging or mitigating bursts

    Like I mentioned above, your supposed to have life force in order to make use of the trait...that’s L2P.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Your getting 1 shot because
    1) you lack the life force necessary to make use of unholy sanctuary
    2) you aren’t dodging or mitigating bursts

    Like I mentioned above, your supposed to have life force in order to make use of the trait...that’s L2P.

    lol... thanks for clarifying something I already knew. I guess what I thought was an obvious point flew over your head for some reason. I don't see how, I mean it was pretty kitten obvious. maybe an effort was made, idk.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    I hope we get a massive rework similar to how thieves got changes to their traps.Imagine if they gave our minions new looks too 😳

    This would be awesome. Overall i hope we will get some minion love. Their usage feels pretty nieche and clunky/outdated to me. I love to run around with my minions, heck they were the reason why i started playing necro as my first char. So i'm looking forward and prey to grenth ANet will not mess it totally up.

  • This reworks gonna be interesting. They never fail to give us a laugh.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Your getting 1 shot because
    1) you lack the life force necessary to make use of unholy sanctuary
    2) you aren’t dodging or mitigating bursts

    Like I mentioned above, your supposed to have life force in order to make use of the trait...that’s L2P.

    lol... thanks for clarifying something I already knew. I guess what I thought was an obvious point flew over your head for some reason. I don't see how, I mean it was pretty kitten obvious. maybe an effort was made, idk.

    Enlighten me. What exactly flew over my head?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zex Anthon.8673 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    How isn't it very analytical? The trait require the shroud to be a defensive mechanism whatever your specialization, so it indeed force the shroud to be a defensive mechanism.

    The trait doesn't make shroud a defensive mechanism, shroud is inherently a defensive mechanism by the way it functions.

    Never did I say that the shroud wasn't a defensive mechanism.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Furthermore, the fact that the shroud is the necromancer's only defensive mechanism mean that whatever happen you are going to have it.

    Thank you for agreeing with me.

    I'm happy that you're satisfy from me agreeing with you despite your misunderstanding of hat I wrote.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    So whatever happen you are forced to sacrifice efficiency in damage and support to compensate for the fact that you run your best (and only) defensive skill. You just can't "sacrifice" the shroud for more damage or more support and in fact scourge is such a problem because ANet wasn't willing to go all out and make some "sacrifice" on the shades, keeping the necromancer in an awkward state where he isn't able to be really good at anything but always do (poorly) a bit of everything.

    Ah the old "Jack of all trades, and master of none argument." You would do well over in the engineer sub-forum. The trade off between offensive and defensive capabilities happens primarily under stats. Want to be maximum damage? Run berserker's gear. Want maximum Sustain? Run nomad's gear. All classes can do a bit of everything, and all classes have offensive and defensive mechanisms whether they run berserker's gear or nomad's. Some classes excel at certain aspects, while they struggle in others. Necro excels at boon corrupting and dealing massive AOE damage, while struggling at sustain and mobility.

    The thing is that no profession except necromancer proc it's own special mechanism.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, you seem to forget that it also give you a kind of regeneration while in shroud. Anyway, I understand pretty well what it does, thank you.

    The regeneration in shroud is mainly so you don't instantly die once you drop out of shroud. It is essentially has the same healing potential as regeneration (the boon), except you have to invest a trait and stats to get maximum effect. I wouldn't say the healing is what defines the trait. If anything the healing needs to be buffed to compete with similar sustain traits.

    Nonetheless it's part of the trait, and on top of that it's a part which is active more often than the other. Since you'll benefit from it whenever you're in shroud compared to when you happen to be on the verge of death.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    You could very well replace the fact that it put you in shroud by the gain of a barrier allowing you to gain this bit of survivability without forcing the necromancer to have a defense in built in your main mechanism whatever it's specialization.

    Are you seriously suggesting removing shroud from necro? Why don't you play scourge, or warrior, or holosmith, etc.? Obviously necro is not your class.

    Nope I'm suggesting of removing the shroud proc on unholy sanctuary.

    And I'll stop answering here because you've just misunderstood the whole thing. It's impressive that some even upvote you when you litterally put different words in what I wrote. I guess what I wrote was to long for people to understand that my critic was about unholy sanctuary requiring the necromancer's special mechanism to always be a defensive in order for this trait to work properly, which is bad design and prevent flexibility in designing futur e-specs.

  • You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic. Im hoping we get more useful and cool minions who are something that can and would work. ( Don't do the ESO treatment please....)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Snip

    >

    Problem is that in GW2 you need some sustain already reaper has a ton of counters, and being unable to reach enemies really sucks unless they get a bit better ways of reaching their enemies with either better ways to reach them or ability to sustain. to me fun is being able to survive long enough to feel useful and not feel like Oh im locked down, because Oh i can't do anything because everyone can hard counter reaper in spvp. Sure we can do great with a firebrand but if they nerf, it would be a nerf for us too.

    You're right and at the same time you are wrong. The main problem is that necromancer's tools are more effective in PvP/WvW than in PvE. And if you only look at the PvP/WvW side of things you can only see the PvP/WvW problems.

    In itself, the necromancer's sustain in PvP/WvW isn't a problem, like you say there is tons of counter to the necromancer's specialization but for balance's sake it's fine because the necromancer is supposed to destroy the boons of their foes and send back the conditions that are on them to to finish those same foes. This is the unmatched ability of the necromancer while the sustain in itself is more or less balanced around the fact that you can fight back while being in your "unkillable" form.

    We all know that the necromancer just isn't a duellist, he doesn't have the tools for that. And the reason why he doesn't have those tools is because he got the shroud as is main and only defensive mechanism. If you want a duellist spec, this defense that is on the shroud need to be handled by utilities or weapons skills. This will put you on the same ground as other professions. Unfortunately, unholy sanctuary just prevent the necromancer special mechanism to not be the main defensive mechanism, which prevent you from having defensive tools on your utilities and thus prevent you from even beginning to hope to have a "competitive" duellist spec one day. (Which was also what I implied in the wall of text that you quoted)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

    Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Enlighten me. What exactly flew over my head?

    it doesn't matter what value you set unholy sanctuary to cuz shroud doesn't mitigate damage very well.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Snip

    >

    Problem is that in GW2 you need some sustain already reaper has a ton of counters, and being unable to reach enemies really sucks unless they get a bit better ways of reaching their enemies with either better ways to reach them or ability to sustain. to me fun is being able to survive long enough to feel useful and not feel like Oh im locked down, because Oh i can't do anything because everyone can hard counter reaper in spvp. Sure we can do great with a firebrand but if they nerf, it would be a nerf for us too.

    You're right and at the same time you are wrong. The main problem is that necromancer's tools are more effective in PvP/WvW than in PvE. And if you only look at the PvP/WvW side of things you can only see the PvP/WvW problems.

    In itself, the necromancer's sustain in PvP/WvW isn't a problem, like you say there is tons of counter to the necromancer's specialization but for balance's sake it's fine because the necromancer is supposed to destroy the boons of their foes and send back the conditions that are on them to to finish those same foes. This is the unmatched ability of the necromancer while the sustain in itself is more or less balanced around the fact that you can fight back while being in your "unkillable" form.

    We all know that the necromancer just isn't a duellist, he doesn't have the tools for that. And the reason why he doesn't have those tools is because he got the shroud as is main and only defensive mechanism. If you want a duellist spec, this defense that is on the shroud need to be handled by utilities or weapons skills. This will put you on the same ground as other professions. Unfortunately, unholy sanctuary just prevent the necromancer special mechanism to not be the main defensive mechanism, which prevent you from having defensive tools on your utilities and thus prevent you from even beginning to hope to have a "competitive" duellist spec one day. (Which was also what I implied in the wall of text that you quoted)

    sustain is a problem in spvp probably less inWVW due to having a massive blob unless you try to roam and get wrecked, but in pve its not as much a problem because the ccs are predictable and obvious. You aren-t getting cced and one shotted out of shroud with no way to escape. Reaper sure is a team fighter but I still think he needs a way to survive. I don't want to nerf other classes survivability(unless its overpowered)

    I can understand wanting necro to be team fighting with reaper but he should be able to survive a little or at least escape a bit more easily so he isn't a punching bag, which is no fun, and this game is all about fun.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

    Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

    They are horrible, plenty of reason to rework them. Make them have impact, Id rather have minions that had use than the ones we have now which are just a joke. the only two I can think of that are really useful are flesh wurm and flesh golem.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Exzen.2976 said:
    Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

    For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

    Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

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