Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please Anet talk us about the Death Magic Rework

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  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Exzen.2976 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Exzen.2976 said:
    Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

    For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

    Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

    If i remember correctly, in d3 traits like this one are called noob traits.
    Describes it pretty good.
    A trait for players that arent as good as other players

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

    Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

    They are horrible, plenty of reason to rework them. Make them have impact, Id rather have minions that had use than the ones we have now which are just a joke. the only two I can think of that are really useful are flesh wurm and flesh golem.

    Necromancer's minions are neither bad nor good, they are just plain boring. Also, Shadow fiend is useful in PvE raid due to it's 10% LF on active skill and Blood fiend is "OK" as a minion, being equivalent to warrior's healing signet with the disadvantage of being a killable and the advantage of doing a tiny bit of extra damage. The main issue is that minions just aren't defensive skills, even with all 5 traits that boost them, at the very best you can see tham as clumsy sustain skills.

    I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    You guys realize with a deathmagic rework minions will also need a rework, since they are the skills tied to death-magic.

    Not really. The trait aren't actually transformative of what the minions do so there would be no real reason to rework them.

    They are horrible, plenty of reason to rework them. Make them have impact, Id rather have minions that had use than the ones we have now which are just a joke. the only two I can think of that are really useful are flesh wurm and flesh golem.

    Necromancer's minions are neither bad nor good, they are just plain boring. Also, Shadow fiend is useful in PvE raid due to it's 10% LF on active skill and Blood fiend is "OK" as a minion, being equivalent to warrior's healing signet with the disadvantage of being a killable and the advantage of doing a tiny bit of extra damage. The main issue is that minions just aren't defensive skills, even with all 5 traits that boost them, at the very best you can see tham as clumsy sustain skills.

    I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    I've to admit I'd really like the idea of death magic making minions passively spawn through traits when you use death maigc that would improve a lot the minionmancer capabilities, ofc a full mionion overhaul should be done.
    But as a hardcore player of core necro I just really dislike your idea of making it minion based. I think core necro shroud has really it's role has ranged hybrid damager and should not be touched and should remain this way, maybe improve casting times on auto attack and make dark path decent again.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Exzen.2976 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Exzen.2976 said:
    Excited and nervous about this rework. I use Death Magic in WvW on Reaper and think it’s massively underrated. Please don’t ruin Unholy Sanctuary!

    For me I'd say, remove unholy sanctuary. Most useless trait in the whole traitline

    Just because you can’t work out how to use it and get the best out of it, doesn’t mean it’s useless. It allows you to use shroud on reaper as a gap closer/escape mid combat without fear of being locked out of shroud and being a free kill. It means you can leave shroud early without fear of wasting life force, in the knowledge that if you take lethal damage, you will revert back to it. It allows you to bait other players into thinking you’re a free kill and then smash them when they over commit and unholy sanctuary procs. It’s a great trait. Anyone talking about it meaning you use shroud as defense only has completely missed the point.

    If i remember correctly, in d3 traits like this one are called noob traits.
    Describes it pretty good.
    A trait for players that arent as good as other players

    Wow. Great argument.

  • SLOTH.5231SLOTH.5231 Member ✭✭✭

    Death Magic merge with minions just like rangers each minion gives certain buff to traits.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    I've to admit I'd really like the idea of death magic making minions passively spawn through traits when you use death maigc that would improve a lot the minionmancer capabilities, ofc a full mionion overhaul should be done.
    But as a hardcore player of core necro I just really dislike your idea of making it minion based. I think core necro shroud has really it's role has ranged hybrid damager and should not be touched and should remain this way, maybe improve casting times on auto attack and make dark path decent again.

    To be fair I Feel like we should have one weapon/weapon combo built around minions. Death-magic a tratline, and one or two skills in shroud that "Passively" on use create minions. I don't want it strictly minion focused just have more of the ability to focus on minions with cool abilities, more bone-mancer and minionmancer abilities that are both fun to use and fun to see. The reason I hardly play my necromancer is because the play-style I like is complete trash, and not very fun to use once so ever... Id also want new models(Cooler minions) but I digress. Trust me I don't want a focus on minions fully, Id love to have our curse-mancer from guild wars 1 back or even our blood-mage or interrupt-mancer back...

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

    I count 3 traits that are dedicated to minions and two more that benefit, but in no way require or are dedicated to them.

    Of the 3 dedicated traits, 2 of them are at least worth being traits rather than baselined: Necromantic Corruption (at least the condition transfer part) and Death Nova. Losing Flesh of the Master entirely and getting the health increase baselined is fine. Getting the damage of Necromantic Corruption baselined is fine.

    However, as much as I would love to have just one minion trait, the condition transfer does seem to be a little much to roll in with Death Nova (neither effect of which I am willing to do away with entirely). Then again, looking at Quick Breathing on Warrior...

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I'll never stress it out enough but if ANet want to dedicate 5 traits to minions, minions have to be a main feature of the main mechanism. In short, to justify that many traits, we'd better have shroud skills vomit minions and not being struck with the necessity to slot minions on utility skills.

    I count 3 traits that are dedicated to minions and two more that benefit, but in no way require or are dedicated to them.

    I'd agree that beyond the veil isn't exactly dedicated to them, but vampiric still see it's efficiency shot throught the roof when you take minions. There is barely any difference between flesh of the master and vampiric.

    Of the 3 dedicated traits, 2 of them are at least worth being traits rather than baselined: Necromantic Corruption (at least the condition transfer part) and Death Nova. Losing Flesh of the Master entirely and getting the health increase baselined is fine. Getting the damage of Necromantic Corruption baselined is fine.

    However, as much as I would love to have just one minion trait, the condition transfer does seem to be a little much to roll in with Death Nova (neither effect of which I am willing to do away with entirely). Then again, looking at Quick Breathing on Warrior...

    Those traits are to passive. None make use of minion's active skills. I'd rather see death nova removed from the traitline and fused into bon minion's putrid explosion than see it remaining as a trait. Change Necromantic Corruption so that it still draw conditions automatically on minions but you need to use minion's active skills to send back the conditions on foes and then you got a true minion trait.

    That's not many change but it already open 2 traits on DM by getting rid of flesh of the master and death nova. Tweak beyond the veil so that instead of giving prot to minions it give it to nearby allies and we are already done to 2 minions traits accross the traitlines. Remove minion's life siphon from vampiric and increase personnal life siphon value and we end up in a better state free of the minion's domination (and I could careless that minion master's afk farming no longer work after this).

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hrm, curious, no death magic changes yet. But Dark path got fixed to track again, and grasping darkness will no longer fail if you target something behind you.

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭✭

    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morde.3158 said:
    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

    Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Morde.3158 said:
    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

    Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

    Nice but Im a power main the most I will play is just a little bit of condi lol

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morde.3158 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Morde.3158 said:
    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

    Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

    Nice but Im a power main the most I will play is just a little bit of condi lol

    You can do the same on power. Just take spite and soul reaping with death magic and anti toxin.

  • @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Morde.3158 said:
    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

    Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

    This is my setup as well. Glad too see I’m not the only one that utilizes the synergy between shrouded removal and anti toxin. It’s a crazy awesome and super under utilized synergy.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Death magic rework? Let's brace ourself for the worst. I can already imagine:

    We've been thinking about death magic for a long time already and seen that the traitline wasn't up to work for the necromancer's defence. We've decided to make the defensive aspect of the shroud less awkward opening way for specializing in defense.

    • Soul comprehension is now replaced by lich's mantle. Lich's mantle: reduce all damage by 50% while in shroud.
    • Shroud no longer naturally mitigate damage by 50%, you need to to take Death magic for that.
    • Putrid defense now reduce damage taken by 1% per different condition on the attacker.
    • Armored shroud now also grant 90 point of toughness while out of shroud.

    Scarry, right? That's the worst I'm bracing myself for at the moment.

    i would probably never set foot in pvp as necro ever again lol

    Makes core and reaper unviable without deathmagic so its a loss of damage no matter which line you trade for it only go gain basically what we had at base which is already subpar lol

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

    The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

    Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

    The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
    Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
    Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
    Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

    Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

    IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Morde.3158 said:
    I just hope they don't ruin the non minion traits Ive been using them lately in wvw it really helps vs 1 shot deadeyes etc I dont exactly run tank necro My armor is like 350+ death magic has really helped but at the same time the loss of damage sucks. If they could make deadly strength stack with all sources of armor and toughness that would be huge. Death magic needs steroid boost is fine it just needs more sustain so you feel more like the play style you are trying to gain since that was promised with reaper. Warriors deffence line gives them ways to heal and also warriors tactics and power line gives them a way to heal. Necro does the same it just needs to be buffed unholy sanctuary should heal for more. Now on to minions im not sure way to say about them lol

    Just play death magic 223 with antitoxin runes and you are already a tank. Mix im some trailblazer, viper armor and trinkets and you are set to 1vX.

    This is my setup as well. Glad too see I’m not the only one that utilizes the synergy between shrouded removal and anti toxin. It’s a crazy awesome and super under utilized synergy.

    Im worried about this build in death magic rework. I hope they dont nerf the 223 combination.

  • Morde.3158Morde.3158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    the old death magic was better rending shroud was so fun the long somone commits to you the more vulnerability applied to them and deadly strength was free. I'm a Necro main I just hope they dont ruin stuff that does not need to be ruined like they always do. Man they are about to remove 50% damage reduction from shroud this is about to hurt wvw power builds please don't do this lol

  • I hope they work minions along the rework. More spirit weapon / phantasm like. Casting minion skills leaves jagged horrors behind.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Morde.3158 said:
    the old death magic was better rending shroud was so fun the long somone commits to you the more vulnerability applied to them and deadly strength was free. I'm a Necro main I just hope they dont ruin stuff that does not need to be ruined like they always do. Man they are about to remove 50% damage reduction from shroud this is about to hurt wvw power builds please don't do this lol

    Im almost positive if they pigeon toe that into death magic and remove it from both base and reaper shroud they would be un usable in pvp and wvw. it will also hurt pve necros as well. if they did that they would literally have to make it so that life force basically did not drain naturally at all while in shroud and that shroud up time would now be determined by the amount of incoming damage you took.

    The things we should hope for.

    Less (on death) traits.
    Less traits that only trigger on death or effect things that happen on death as when something dies the fighting is usually over and the benefit is not really a benefit the only exception area to this is maybe wvw but still. Most of the traits at the moment that deal with something happening on death need to be changed into something that happens while in combat. On death traits have mostly 0 purpose through the corse of a fight.

    More true sustain
    Fix the healing grandmaster to actually heal a respectable amount at default and a greater amount when healing power is invested.
    Have condi removal traits target damaging condis only. We already have speed of shadows as a trait for removing movement impairments no need to double down.
    Increase life force gain via skills or naturally over time rather than (on death)
    Stability, Stability, STABILITY!

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

    The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

    Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

    The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
    Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
    Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
    Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

    Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

    IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

    If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

    The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

    Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

    The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
    Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
    Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
    Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

    Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

    IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

    If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

    Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

    To go into more detail though

    Most of ele's sustain comes from
    Evades
    Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.
    Blocks/reflects
    While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few
    BOONS
    Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

    Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

    Necro
    Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.
    pve
    As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.
    pvp
    In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)
    General
    To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

    To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

    It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

    Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

    The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

    Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

    The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
    Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
    Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
    Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

    Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

    IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

    If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

    Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

    To go into more detail though

    Most of ele's sustain comes from
    Evades
    Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.
    Blocks/reflects
    While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few
    BOONS
    Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

    Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

    Necro
    Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.
    pve
    As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.
    pvp
    In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)
    General
    To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

    To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

    It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

    Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

    I was wondering actually if there was a way lets say to make it so the dps loss isn't too extreme because every class has at least some way or form to sustain although i don't think it will be the same kind, especially with shroud. We the fans have to decide if we are to use shroud as dps and or sacrifice dps because we cannot have shroud be a decent tool for survival and heavy dps without it being extremely overpowered, which is why every survival tool has to be outside shroud. Can you just imagine reaper being neigh invincible while dealing the damage it is now? oh boy will that not go too well. Maybe they can combine dps and sustain trait to death magic somehow to make the pets deal more dps and help us sustain more or something? so the dps loss is some but not too massive. my problem is in pve as you said dps loss is a big deal but i think also it might not go so well.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.

    The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.

    Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.

    While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....

    The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.

    Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.

    The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
    Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
    Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
    Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)

    Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)

    IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.

    If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.

    Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.

    To go into more detail though

    Most of ele's sustain comes from
    Evades
    Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.
    Blocks/reflects
    While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few
    BOONS
    Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.

    Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.

    Necro
    Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.
    pve
    As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.
    pvp
    In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)
    General
    To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.

    To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.

    It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.

    Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.

    I was wondering actually if there was a way lets say to make it so the dps loss isn't too extreme because every class has at least some way or form to sustain although i don't think it will be the same kind, especially with shroud. We the fans have to decide if we are to use shroud as dps and or sacrifice dps because we cannot have shroud be a decent tool for survival and heavy dps without it being extremely overpowered, which is why every survival tool has to be outside shroud. Can you just imagine reaper being neigh invincible while dealing the damage it is now? oh boy will that not go too well. Maybe they can combine dps and sustain trait to death magic somehow to make the pets deal more dps and help us sustain more or something? so the dps loss is some but not too massive. my problem is in pve as you said dps loss is a big deal but i think also it might not go so well.

    There are several professions at the moment who have the power or potential to be invulnerable for a short time while still dealing pretty high dps granted the time frame is usually only a few seconds but still.
    Its not like the idea is new its just the idea would be limited to 4-5 seconds at most

    Necros sustain will like always be tied to its offensive pressure in some way which can be ok if the tools for the job are proper. That is where the problem comes in as alot of kit tools are just subpar and outdated.

    Anet already did the combo of damage + sustain in a trait (soul eater) and it was nerfed because of how strong it was in pve. According to them it "Provided too much sustain" which was partly true depending on the situation the necromancer was in.

    Sadly the reason why taking death-magic will 100% always be a damage loss is because regardless if you go power or condi it means you are required to run Spite or Curses thats 1 trait line down if you give up spite or curses you will take a dps loss.
    Now you have the option to take death magic or give up soul reaping if you give up soul reaping regardless of if you go power or condi its a dps loss due to soul eater, death perception, dhuumsfire, etc. Giving up soul reaping is a dps loss
    Or you could keep Soul reaping and your choice of spite or curses. In this case if you take death magic as your 3rd line you gave up reaper and scourge which is also a dps loss because core is not even close to competing either one of the elites.

    So death magic ideally needs to be something magical for people to want to use it because no matter where you swap it in the offensive pressure of necomancer is going to take a hit. It needs to actually feel like it helps you survive burst, help reduce the chain cc tact that people often take against necro, and actually provide away to respectfully heal in shroud at the very least.

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