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Future Potential WvW-centric Balance Changes - September 13th 2019

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  • It seems there is some need for additional clarity.

    tldr; By all means, please keep constructive feedback coming! We'll review it once we're able.

    The initial post was not to say "Okay, feedback is now useless", but to communicate that further feedback isn't stuff we're going to be able to review/address with this next set of changes. We'll get to reviewing feedback and addressing it when we're able to, but right now we're no longer in a state of being able to review feedback for this upcoming update.

    I pointed out that Scourge, in WvW, is an important topic and, we're going to continue to keep looking at Scourge's target cap and Sand Savant in particular in the future. To get a reasonable amount of time for the posted changes QA'd and any bugs addressed or changed due to sheer functional need before the release we've had to stop adjusting things for the time being. That's simply a part of the design and implementation process.

    Thanks for understanding this and keeping the discussion constructive moving forward.

    Irenio 'Kui'
    GW2 Systems

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    I dont play Holosmith my own but the Holographic Shockwave from 600 to 300 sound pretty extreme to me. Holosmith isnt a thing that really needs any nerfs.
    If it has to be, then a 480 range would be more enough of a nerf.

    In PvP it needs a nerf, but not in PvE.

    i meant in pvp. a 300range is almost nothing

    It says range for some reason but it's actually a radius. And 300 radius is not that small. Yes, it's way smaller than 600 and exponentially so, but if you compare it to similar skills of other professions 300 is way more fair than 600. 480 would still be quite a bit more than what other professions get for pbAoEs that make you stay still for the cast.

    imo holo isnt a class that really needs any nerf. It can be good..."can".
    other classes could need a nerf slightly more then the holo
    and its not like hes doing abnormal things with that skill

    The AoE range is abnormal. It's one of the largest player AoEs in the game, I only know of banners having that range - and they dont do any damage and have 80-180s cd. Holographic shockwave is a weapon skill on 15s cd.

    Other "large" AoEs as examples:
    Meteor shower, 360 radius.
    Healing rains, 480 radius.
    Barrage, 360 radius.
    Arrowcart (traited), 540 radius

    Holo shockwave is as large as a treb cow shot. Look at one the next time you see it and realize just how fricking large that AoE is with a player in the center.

    TL;DR holo shockwave should never had that AoE to begin with. Because it's absolutely ridiculous.

    Yeah. IMO it should've been about the size of meteor shower to begin with. 300 seems a tad small, 360 seems a little better.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It seems there is some need for additional clarity.

    tldr; By all means, please keep constructive feedback coming! We'll review it once we're able.

    The initial post was not to say "Okay, feedback is now useless", but to communicate that further feedback isn't stuff we're going to be able to review/address with this next set of changes. We'll get to reviewing feedback and addressing it when we're able to, but right now we're no longer in a state of being able to review feedback for this upcoming update.

    I pointed out that Scourge, in WvW, is an important topic and, we're going to continue to keep looking at Scourge's target cap and Sand Savant in particular in the future. To get a reasonable amount of time for the posted changes QA'd and any bugs addressed or changed due to sheer functional need before the release we've had to stop adjusting things for the time being. That's simply a part of the design and implementation process.

    Thanks for understanding this and keeping the discussion constructive moving forward.

    Is there an ETA for these changes ?
    Thanks.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It seems there is some need for additional clarity.

    tldr; By all means, please keep constructive feedback coming! We'll review it once we're able.

    The initial post was not to say "Okay, feedback is now useless", but to communicate that further feedback isn't stuff we're going to be able to review/address with this next set of changes. We'll get to reviewing feedback and addressing it when we're able to, but right now we're no longer in a state of being able to review feedback for this upcoming update.

    I pointed out that Scourge, in WvW, is an important topic and, we're going to continue to keep looking at Scourge's target cap and Sand Savant in particular in the future. To get a reasonable amount of time for the posted changes QA'd and any bugs addressed or changed due to sheer functional need before the release we've had to stop adjusting things for the time being. That's simply a part of the design and implementation process.

    Thanks for understanding this and keeping the discussion constructive moving forward.

    Thank you!

    Just wanted to say that Necro didn't really need more AoEs, it really needs movement and position skills. The main complaint about Necros is the area denial from tons of AoEs littering the map during combat, and Necro had more than enough ranged AoE options prior to Scourge. Adding in more AoEs doesn't allow for other needed changes to take place, nor lessens the complaint of have too many AoEs being tossed around in WvW... All the AoEs edge out any sort of decent melee builds and for any real melee meta being present. This is what Scourge needs...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39165/healthy-manifest-shade-and-sand-swell-revamp

    And the below is what would be awesome, and more balanced against other professions, for the long run...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necromancer-for-august-2019

  • Halbarz.3854Halbarz.3854 Member ✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 the ranger change is a bit disappointing as it's just another nerf.

    suggestions WvW Ranger:

    Traits:
    Druid:
    -Celestial Being: change trait that reduces pet stats to increases pet ability (5%) (F2) - keep core pet stats.

    • Primal Echoes: Add Staff damage is increased by 10% for 10 seconds after to a staff
    • Ancient Seeds: Add 3 sec poison for 201 damage.

    nature magic:

    • natures Vengeance: add spirit duration increased by 33%
    • Allies' Aid: Add 3 seconds of resistance and 3 seconds of protection.
    • Instinctive reaction: Quickness is shared with your group (5 players)

    Skirmishing:

    • Sharpened Edges: Increase bleed damage to 88 damage
    • Trapper's Expertise: add a radius increase + 10% damage increase (core damage)

    Weapons:
    Longbow:

    • Barrage - increase targets to 10

    Greatsword:

    • Hilt bash reduce daze/stun to 1 sec. reduce damage by 7%
    • Swoop grants stability for 2 sec after hitting

    Staff:

    • Solar Beam: Increase targets to 5, increase damage by 10% and healing from 66 to 88.
    • Astral Wisp: add damages foes it travels through for 313.
    • Vine Surge: Increase targets to 5, immobilize is now 1 sec instead of 1 and a half.
    • Sublime Conversion: increase duration to 8 seconds.

    Some of the numbers might be off but I think this could bring back in some fashion the druid builds and give people more of a choice to go Soul beast or Druid

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    I dont play Holosmith my own but the Holographic Shockwave from 600 to 300 sound pretty extreme to me. Holosmith isnt a thing that really needs any nerfs.
    If it has to be, then a 480 range would be more enough of a nerf.

    In PvP it needs a nerf, but not in PvE.

    i meant in pvp. a 300range is almost nothing

    It says range for some reason but it's actually a radius. And 300 radius is not that small. Yes, it's way smaller than 600 and exponentially so, but if you compare it to similar skills of other professions 300 is way more fair than 600. 480 would still be quite a bit more than what other professions get for pbAoEs that make you stay still for the cast.

    imo holo isnt a class that really needs any nerf. It can be good..."can".
    other classes could need a nerf slightly more then the holo
    and its not like hes doing abnormal things with that skill

    The AoE range is abnormal. It's one of the largest player AoEs in the game, I only know of banners having that range - and they dont do any damage and have 80-180s cd. Holographic shockwave is a weapon skill on 15s cd.

    Other "large" AoEs as examples:
    Meteor shower, 360 radius.
    Healing rains, 480 radius.
    Barrage, 360 radius.
    Arrowcart (traited), 540 radius

    Holo shockwave is as large as a treb cow shot. Look at one the next time you see it and realize just how fricking large that AoE is with a player in the center.

    TL;DR holo shockwave should never had that AoE to begin with. Because it's absolutely ridiculous.

    just to say, besides that shockwave they arent that big of a deal anyway

  • Wanze.8410Wanze.8410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vova.2640 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    It seems there is some need for additional clarity.

    tldr; By all means, please keep constructive feedback coming! We'll review it once we're able.

    The initial post was not to say "Okay, feedback is now useless", but to communicate that further feedback isn't stuff we're going to be able to review/address with this next set of changes. We'll get to reviewing feedback and addressing it when we're able to, but right now we're no longer in a state of being able to review feedback for this upcoming update.

    I pointed out that Scourge, in WvW, is an important topic and, we're going to continue to keep looking at Scourge's target cap and Sand Savant in particular in the future. To get a reasonable amount of time for the posted changes QA'd and any bugs addressed or changed due to sheer functional need before the release we've had to stop adjusting things for the time being. That's simply a part of the design and implementation process.

    Thanks for understanding this and keeping the discussion constructive moving forward.

    Is there an ETA for these changes ?
    Thanks.

    October, 1st.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88470/upcoming-balance-notes-10-1-2019

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Some news about glamour trait ?

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    l m a o
    nothing changes

  • @viquing.8254 said:
    Some news about glamour trait ?

    And a rez trait for Rev? ;-;

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    Shades blocking scourges from using shade abilities on themselves is a horrible mechanic that leaves them vulnerable to close combat while having an active shade. First you punish holos even more for overheating, even when specifically using the trait Photonic Blasting Module which WANTS you to overheat and now you leave scourges vulnerable in melee range after placing shades, which you want to when using the trait Sadistic Searing.

    10 target ranged shades. I'm sure no competent WvW player asked for this.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:
    Shades blocking scourges from using shade abilities on themselves is a horrible mechanic that leaves them vulnerable to close combat while having an active shade. First you punish holos even more for overheating, even when specifically using the trait Photonic Blasting Module which WANTS you to overheat and now you leave scourges vulnerable in melee range after placing shades, which you want to when using the trait Sadistic Searing.

    10 target ranged shades. I'm sure no competent WvW player asked for this.

    It's great. Promotes proper placement and thought when placing shades instead of this brainless spam fiesta that they are now. Hopefully game keeps going in this direction.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    I wasn't too fussed about these changes before and nore am I now. The only comment I have to give goes beyond these proposed changes. I am not a fan of resurrection skills like Life because they create snowball effects with inherent cross-scale balance issues (ie., making it harder for the small to engage the large). However, from a class perspective I think you should be careful with the Mesmer class overall because there have been negative kitten in quite alot of places and recent patches and they risk falling out of roles in different modes. With future changes to this class I think you need to sit down and find a clearer path for what you want to do, what you want the class to do and so forth. It is becomming very bland and you keep cutting back on that bland. Think more about what you want it to do and adress its balance in line with

    I just wanted to come on and agree with the general sentiment here. I think the biggest problem that WvW is having currently when it comes to balance is that the balance team really needs to take a look at what they think each class/spec should be doing and how they work with the other class/specs. They should then be spending their time creating a space for that AND working around that overall picture. IE: If you created a class you intended to be a support/utility class, then focus on making that support/utility the focus and give it the synergy needed to work with the classes that it is intended to compliment. If you make a damage class that you intend for it to pump out tons of damage then make it so that the damage that it does has it's synergies with the utility/tank classes. Taking each class separately and not viewing the whole picture as a large scale group has been where the problems lie. The classes and elite specs should have their synergies well defined and if you are releasing different utility/damage classes per expansion then be certain to make sure that each of the classes whether they are tank, utility or damage each have their roles defined and their synergies coordinated.

    Right now it sort of looks and feels like everything being done is reactionary vs by design. The look and feel of each elite spec doesn't feel like it's designed around a type of synergy but instead to allow classes to wield a weapon that was missing from their core class. Don't get me wrong, I love the elite specs and find them fun to play but it feels like more time should have been taken in determining how each of these specs would interact with each other, in each of the different game modes and what that elite spec was expected to do in a group.

    I would personally love to see dev's start discussing which specs are meant to fill which roles and how best to make that happen. Give each spec viable and defined roles that they are intended to fit into. The "jack of all trades, master of none" box isn't a good guide when it comes to balancing and having PvP and WvW means balancing. I think that sitting down and defining what each spec's role is supposed to be then balancing that spec towards the intended play-pattern of that spec would help ease a lot of the frustration in WvW and PvP modes. If you want to give each elite spec two options for play-pattern that's fine too but then there needs to be discussion on how best to express those options and what the trades will be for choosing them. Each spec should have it's own specific identity and it's own specific niche it's meant to fill in a group setting complete with an optimization that gives it that space to succeed. The system is amazing for the amount of creativity it creates but the problem is that if the entirety of the class isn't taken into account as well as it's over-lap/synergy with the other classes/possible builds. Then you're going to continue to have a problem with balance. You won't be able to please everyone (obviously) but if you're going to have a situation where players face off against other players then it's in your best interests to decide what elite spec is supposed to offer what to each group and then make sure that is viable for that elite spec.

    If you want to have each class/spec continue in the Master of None category then the headache of WvW and PvP will continue. In many cases it would make sense to separate PvP and WvW gameplay styles from PVE because PVE needs to be more flexible, but WvW and PvP need roles to be better defined.

    Currently, from what I've experienced so far most specs feel a bit all over the place without a clear identity that shapes what they are supposed to do in a group. While that leaves room for creativity it also means that balance often feels haphazard and frustrating for everyone (I suspect it's just as frustrating for dev's).

    TLDR: The balance team needs to take each of the Elite Specs and Core builds together as a whole and define for themselves what each of these specs/cores are expected to do in group play. Then optimize their power based on the intended play pattern for the elite specs/core builds. You can tweak the damage ratios/frustrating aspects of the specs as you go but each spec really does need a clearly defined role, it does not need to be nor should it be able to do everything in PvP or WvW.

    I can see the need in PVE but PvP and WvW have different needs.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    What the hell am I supposed to do to make up the loss of damage from a kitten longbow?

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Hey again all,

    Thanks for the feedback on the proposed Balance Changes over the last three weeks - as a result several notes have been altered and re-visited.
    This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

    Thief

    • Deadly Ambition: Reduce the poison inflicted by this trait from 2 stacks for 3 seconds to 1 stack for 5 seconds in PvP & WvW.

    Deadly Ambition is a trait that in this moment works really well: this trait is well balanced and does not create excessive advantages whereas it allows thief players to be able to play different condi builds.
    Nerf it would be a big mistake, IMHO.

    In order to solve Condi Sword/Dagger Daredevil ridiculous burst damage (really zero skill needed to achiev great damage) it would not be better change Panic Strike trait?
    Go back to the old (2015) version of this trait, remove the "Immobilizing a foe poisons them" in order to avoid Infiltrator's Strike and Spotter's Shot spam and restore the 20 seconds cooldown and the 2 seconds of Immobilize duration

    PS: can you consider the idea of restore Lead Attacks (effect) duration from the actual 10 seconds to the old 15 seconds? Now in combat is possible to reach the 15 Lead Attacks stacks only if you run Acrobatics or at the cost of waste all your initiative. I play D/P Daredevil and I almost never reach 15 stacks of Lead Attacks.
    I'm fine with the need to be in combat in order to generate the stacking damage effect.. but at least when I'm in combat let me make the most of from this trait.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Start actually playing the game mode before making balance changes, lol

    [NUKE]

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    What the hell am I supposed to do to make up the loss of damage from a kitten longbow?

    Rangers still have decent to very good damage.....just don’t expect to play it has a warrior with a 1k distance from target.

    Reading opponent build and window to burst is a good thing.

    @Samug.6512 said:
    Start actually playing the game mode before making balance changes, lol

    They actually do, issue is they are hidden in the spamfest, ktrain, and they gank 8-10vs 1...

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    I would like to take a moment to publicly praise the two developers whose keeping Guild Wars 1 alives

    These posts touched me and will also do the same to all.

    'It was a disaster. In the process of trying to fix it and move the servers, however, Clarke-Willson and programmer Bill Freist uncovered a bug in Guild Wars 1 that was similar to one they had once eradicated from Guild Wars 2. The bug did a number on the game’s ping and was really hurting some players’ experiences. “That’s when I realized I need to do more than the data center move,” said Clarke-Willson. “I needed to do some actual code maintenance on the game. Bill and I fixed that bug recently, and the ping is solid now.'

    '“Now that I’m involved with the community, I can see little things I can do that improve the player experience,” said Clarke-Willson]'

    'The broader goal for both Clarke-Willson and Freist is to keep the game enjoyable for as long as possible. Guild Wars, they believe, is uniquely well-positioned to withstand the test of time even though it’s an MMO'

    https://kotaku.com/the-two-developers-keeping-guild-wars-1-alive-1826435630

    --Guild Wars--
    (I also encourage everyone in helping in keeping Guild wars 1 alive by standing at their sides and by supporting them as well :)
    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    'Players experiences and enjoyments are what matters the most', Guild Wars

    THIS IS THE VISION WE NEED GUILD WARS 2!!!!

    Thank You so much for your Dedication, Devotion, Hard Work, Commitment, putting players experiences and their enjoyment first and for taking steps in the right direction also by working with the community in keeping Guild Wars vision strong :)