Class and build counter list? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Class and build counter list?

Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

Comments

  • I'd like to help, but could you be a little more specific?
    If I was to list every class and every matchup there would be like 64 matchups to cover and thats assuming each class took only one build.

  • I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

    Thieves counter necros and mesmers
    Weavers counter thieves
    Holos and Warriors counter weavers
    Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

    That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

  • Would be easier to help you knowing what build you play.

    Cause in general, it depends on builds more than class.
    You wont play the same against a tempest as youd play against a FA even though they are the same "class"

  • @raistlinx.4906 said:
    I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

    Sorry I don't know of anything like that. There's definitely a lot to learn when you first start playing, but since the meta is constantly evolving and changing there's no be-all end-all guide.
    If I were you I would go to the class specific PvP forums and post questions you have there, or PM notable players in game.

  • @Stallic.2397 said:
    Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

    Thieves counter necros and mesmers
    Weavers counter thieves
    Holos and Warriors counter weavers
    Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

    That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

    Yes something that general is a good start. I know a lot of people will want to go down to the specific, but something like this is good for beginners. Then once they settle on a class they can learn more specifics for that class.

    I may have poorly phrased my initial post. The spirit of what I was really thinking about was a situation where a new player is leaning to play class x and are capping a point for example, they see class y coming to contest and they need to decide to stay and 1v1 or rotate off and find something favorable. Typically you have no idea about player y so "all things are equal" in the end.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @raistlinx.4906 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

    Thieves counter necros and mesmers
    Weavers counter thieves
    Holos and Warriors counter weavers
    Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

    That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

    Yes something that general is a good start. I know a lot of people will want to go down to the specific, but something like this is good for beginners. Then once they settle on a class they can learn more specifics for that class.

    I may have poorly phrased my initial post. The spirit of what I was really thinking about was a situation where a new player is leaning to play class x and are capping a point for example, they see class y coming to contest and they need to decide to stay and 1v1 or rotate off and find something favorable. Typically you have no idea about player y so "all things are equal" in the end.

    It depends on build though.

    The post you quoted said that Weaver counters Thief. This is true if the weaver is playing a sustainy Sword build. But it is totally the other way around if the Weaver is playing a glassy FA Sceptre build, Thief counters Weaver in this scenario.

    I know you don't want to hear "it's complicated"...... but it is. If you want a simple answer, it will be a flat-out wrong answer. If you're playing Thief and you see a Weaver coming towards you, it isn't good enough to just say "okay, that's a weaver, I should do x/y/z", because depending on your build and their build, the answer is totally different.

  • No, it has nothing to do with me not wanting to hear something. I completely understand there is a lot of nuance and detail when you want to get to the "right" answer ever time. With generalization you are willing to accept some error for general guidelines.

  • @birdboy.6509 said:

    @raistlinx.4906 said:
    I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

    Sorry I don't know of anything like that. There's definitely a lot to learn when you first start playing, but since the meta is constantly evolving and changing there's no be-all end-all guide.
    If I were you I would go to the class specific PvP forums and post questions you have there, or PM notable players in game.

    Thanks, I couldn't find anything with my searches either so you're probably right about having to go to the specific class pages.

  • I think if you understand your build (not just class) then you should know what counters you and who you counter in those regards

    For example, if you don’t have a lot of condi cleanse then obviously you should avoid scourge (or any condi build in general). If you can’t maintain a reasonable stability uptime then warrior and holo might give you a hard time. And if you are glassy then power thief and Mesmer (or any power build class) could be your nightmare and so on.

    Then again it comes down to your skill and experience. Try to avoid direct match up with those who counter you is generally a good practice in PVP. I don’t think there’s any shame in running away from a fight if you know you gonna lose (though you may get abused by other players from time to time).

    Good luck

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    asking this in the forums will basically get you bias lists from players and by the end of it you'll look at those lists from everybody and say "everything is busted but everything also counters everything" and have accomplished nothing

    look at past mAT matches of top teams (even though theyre boring and usually landslides esp on NA) on youtube see the point interactions - how the classes are played - what each teams are doing, message somebody from top 5 in game and get some info from them, begin multi-classing too to understand class weaknesses

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @raistlinx.4906 said:
    Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

    No website but I’ll take a general shot in the dark:

    Builds in GW2 fulfill specific roles in PvP.

    Broadly speaking:

    • Bunker
    • Brawler
    • Support
    • DPS

    None of those can individually win a game. Its a team game after all. It’s more important to understand what your build is meant to do, and then focus on getting personally better at doing what you need to do.

    When it comes to 1v1, you are primarily interested in Brawlers (also referred to as “side-noders”) because most DPS/Support/Bunkers are in team fights where individual match ups matter less or holding nodes solo where the goal isn’t to win the 1v1 so much as stalemate.

    If you are a brawler then you take 1v1s and hope to either win or hold longer enough to get support from DPS or Support. You, generally, want to take fights against builds with lower sustain than you because your goal is to knock down as many of their defensive cooldowns for a quick decisive final blow, ideally from a DPS plus one.

    This, however, depends on whether the opponent is condi/power based and how that interacts with your own build. If your build has trouble dealing with conditions then that is likely a matchup where you have lower sustain than your condition based opponent. If your opponent is projectile based and you have lots of reflects, you have automatically become much better positioned to 1v1 them.

    As to specific builds, it’s hard to create a list that is both comprehensive enough to cover what they could be running and succinct enough to not confuse everyone reading it. Ultimately, people learn best by playing rather than reading about playing, which some posters have alluded to above.

    If you are NA and want help, feel free to friend me in game and message me. I’m always happy to help you figure things out.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    generally speaking:

    power builds counter most bunkers and some condi builds.
    condi builds counter most power builds and some bunker builds.
    bunker builds counter some of everyone but generally exist to stall long enough for a buddy to show up.
    hard cc counters low stun breaks/ stability.
    soft cc counters melee builds with low cleanse.
    high heals counters low average dps (auto attacks).
    blocks/ evades counter burst builds.
    weakness counters power builds.
    high cleanse counters condi builds.
    range with mobility counters melee.
    melee with mobility counters ranged.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    generally speaking:

    power builds counter most bunkers and some condi builds.
    condi builds counter most power builds and some bunker builds.
    bunker builds counter some of everyone but generally exist to stall long enough for a buddy to show up.
    hard cc counters low stun breaks/ stability.
    soft cc counters melee builds with low cleanse.
    high heals counters low average dps (auto attacks).
    blocks/ evades counter burst builds.
    weakness counters power builds.
    high cleanse counters condi builds.
    range with mobility counters melee.
    melee with mobility counters ranged.

    What this guy says.

    So basically just play holo since they do pretty much everything.

  • Thanks to all that offered some generalizations. It helps give me a starting point to look at some of the classes I am playing and start to think about what classes/builds I would avoid match ups with.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    means it counters >
    means it gets countered by <
    Double >> or << means hard counter
    = balanced match

    Speaking on behalf of Ranger and considering all of the Ranger specs mentioned are power based:

    Core Ranger = Warrior/Berserker/Spellbreaker
    Core Ranger > Burst Guardians/Dragonhunters
    Core Ranger < Any Burn Guardian/Dragonhunter/Firebrand
    Core Ranger = Support Firebrand
    Core Ranger > Power Herald
    Core Ranger < Condi Herald
    Core Ranger = Other Ranger based specs for the most part, but a well played Druid can still counter it
    Core Ranger < Holosaiyan
    Core Ranger >> All power based Thief specs
    Core Ranger << Condi DrD
    Core Ranger > Power based Mesmer specs, all of them
    Core Ranger << Condi based Mesmer specs, all of them
    Core Ranger > All Necromancer specs
    Core Ranger = Power based Elementalist specs
    Core Ranger < Condi based Elementalist specs
    ~ Summary: Core Power Ranger gets countered by condi play but is very strong against power play, only exception being Holosaiyan.
    ~ Summary: The weakness of Core Ranger is that it lacks the mobility/disengage that Druid or Soulbeast has. It has trouble when caught 1v2.

    Druid > Berserker
    Druid = Warrior
    Druid << Spellbreaker
    Druid >> Burst/Burn Core Guardians and Dragonhunters
    Druid = Support & Burn FB
    Druid = Power & Condi Heralds
    Druid > Actually still ultimately counters all over Ranger specs
    Druid > Power based Thief specs
    Druid < Condi DrD
    Druid << Holosaiyan
    Druid > All Necromancers
    Druid > Power based Mesmers, all of them
    Druid < Will eventually lose to well played condi Mirage, but still fairs well against condi Mesmer/Chrono
    Druid = Elementalist builds
    ~ Summary: Druid is hard countered by reveal & heavy CC, but can otherwise survive 1v1 against everything else, though it now lacks damage.

    DPS Soulbeast > Core Warrior/Berserker
    DPS Soulbeast = Spellbreaker
    DPS Soulbeast = Burst & Burn Core Guards & Dragonhunters
    DPS Soulbeast >> Support FB
    DPS Soulbeast = Condi FB
    DPS Soulbeast << Power Heralds
    DPS Soulbeast = Condi Heralds
    DPS Soulbeast = Core Ranger
    DPS Soulbeast < Well played Druid
    DPS Soulbeast << Condi DrD
    DPS Soulbeast >> Power based Thief specs
    DPS Soulbeast = Holosaiyan
    DPS Soulbeast >> All Necromancers.
    DPS Soulbeast = Power based Mesmer specs
    DPS Soulbeast < Condi based Mesmer specs
    DPS Soulbeast > All elementalist specs
    ~ Summary: DPS Soulbeast is countered by heavy condi and/or things with very heavy chase potential. But nothing rocks heavier damage burst.

    Scrapper not mentioned because only like 2 people in NA can play it to viability.

  • And then if you take @Trevor Boyer.6524 's list and then insert individual player names on those same specs things can still swap all over the place.

    IMO, For example: (Ranger > power Mesmer) << Zeromis (a power Mesmer)
    So like others said it can be complicated.

  • @Eurantien.4632 said:
    And then if you take @Trevor Boyer.6524 's list and then insert individual player names on those same specs things can still swap all over the place.

    IMO, For example: (Ranger > power Mesmer) << Zeromis (a power Mesmer)
    So like others said it can be complicated.

    Indeed it can.

    Good example is Naru on Necro doing a great job of = Soulbeast.

    Guy can LoS on a Necro better than a cockroach can LoS the daylight.

  • best thing is learn very well your own build, them you'll find what builds you can play against or not

    Like I played a lot of warriors

    So I know mesmer are my hard counters, specially the pistol ones

    Necros are also annoying, but I still can beat em with some effort, same for condi thieves

    Every other match up is a skill match up, the best player mechanically wins

    I don't remember a match up I win easily as a warrior

    Elementalist

    I feel I have no hard counters, prolly because I played more than 1k matches as elementalist

    hardest match ups are against confusion builds, but still winnable

    I feel I win all other match ups with certain ease

    Maybe reapers annoy me the most as they keep getting the second life pool and stability with it

    Matches I just win when the player is bad are against scrapper and water weaver, and some support tempest. But I dont lose, I just fight em to def the node, otherwise I domt even get in a fight

    The only counter I play is not against a specific build, is against an specific comp, I play thief when I see a lot of necros, scrappers and guardians, my mobility puts me in such an advantage that most of the time I don't need to win duels in order to have great impact in the game, I just have to rotate around and cap/ decap and +1 fights

  • Itz Jay.8941Itz Jay.8941 Member ✭✭✭

    @raistlinx.4906 said:
    Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

    metabattle.com head over there and read every build guide from the top down and youll learn a lot and there is guides for map rotation and you will see the top streamers names at the bottom of each build you can learn a lot from watching them doesn't matter what class you play or what you are watching you need to learn all of them to a degree to be able to climb

    Try to play a carry class if you're playing solo, like spellbreaker/holosmith have a lot of mobility and utility, they are good all rounders so you will have more favourable match ups with them.

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