Marked, objectives, and thieves — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Marked, objectives, and thieves

Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

Discuss.

Critical Kit, Deadeye.
“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

Comments

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    That would be a step in the right direction. Having it slotted in a keep would mean it can be activated to sweep after a zerg gets wiped past the inner wall but leaves a DE behind.

    +1

    How far would the radius be when the tactivator is pulled? Like will it end 5 meters outside the outer wall?

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If people are so worried that they can't get a thief out after a breach, just give them a tactic in the t1/t2 tactics column that can only be deployed once an hour, which applies marked in pulses every 4s for duration of 30-60s. That is more than ample time to catch a thief. If they can't even catch one with that, it is already pebkac, just like the many tools and ways we already have to deal with thieves. There should already be no excuses.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:
    That would be a step in the right direction. Having it slotted in a keep would mean it can be activated to sweep after a zerg gets wiped past the inner wall but leaves a DE behind.

    +1

    How far would the radius be when the tactivator is pulled? Like will it end 5 meters outside the outer wall?

    I was thinking basically anything inside the outer walls, much like how it currently works when you cap a keep. That makes it effective when used, and giving it a cooldown makes it not spammable. I don't want to suggest more changes that don't actually fix the problem haha.

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    If people are so worried that they can't get a thief out after a breach, just give them a tactic in the t1/t2 tactics column that can only be deployed once an hour, which applies marked in pulses every 4s for duration of 30-60s. That is more than ample time to catch a thief. If they can't even catch one with that, it is already pebkac, just like the many tools and ways we already have to deal with thieves. There should already be no excuses.

    So basically what I said in the OP? :P 30-60 seconds duration would allow me (deadeye) to place a portal when it's pulled, jump out the tower, then port back in after the effect ends, making the tactic pretty much useless. 5 mins forces the hiding players to leave or bring in help right away, and giving the thing a cooldown (I agree 10 mins might be too short, 30-60 mins might be better for balance) and making it an upgrade means they still have opportunities to port people in. There would then be counterplay, which is healthy. I do agree that there are plenty of tools already available, but as a deadeye main I can tell you that a good number of them are kinda pointless, and stuff like marked traps etc wouldn't be needed and could be removed to improve my quality of life as a thief, as long as something like I suggested actually addresses the issue properly.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • When I approach a Sentry I get Marked, which means I'm visible on the mini map. I take this in to consideration any time I decide to capture a Sentry because I know it means there's a risk involved and there's high potential for people to be heading my way. I also know when I fully capture the node Marked will expire, therefore doing so is obviously my priority.

    I also don't fight around towers, especially ones with Watch Tower, because again I know I'll be visible on the mini map. I also know fighting around towers in general is a bad idea for more than a few reasons; it's too easy for my opponent(s) to retreat inside, they could get reinforcements, they could use siege, NPC's could add unnecessary pressure.

    Thieves have extremely high mobility and more control over where and when a fight happens than any other profession. You can't run away from a Thief that's not finished with you, but a Thief that's prepared can choose where the fight starts, ends and where it moves.

    Anyone that doesn't heavily rely on Stealth will think similarly to myself. They'll consider their vulnerability when taking a Sentry, they'll avoid fighting near objectives. But then we have some people who seem to forego logic in favor of mechanics because Stealth can crutch their mistakes. IE, without Marked, certain Stealth heavy builds can push their luck regardless of location because they're immune to a Tactic thats' purpose is to highlight players on the map.

    I'm sorry, but I don't find it to be any less fair for Thieves to have Reveal forced upon them when Marked than it is for any other class to be nakedly visible on the map. The radius of Watch Tower and Sentry isn't any different for Thieves. Consider the risks of being Marked before entering that vicinity, or don't do it.

    [Smut] [HUNT] [IH] | Necromancer, Engineer, Revenant | Anvil Rock | Diamond Legend
    "I'll take triumph over victory every time. If it isn't a challenge it isn't an accomplishment."

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

    So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

    With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

    Discuss.

    Not sure if I like this or not...

    I DO like that it forces someone to work at it by keeping them in the keep/tower to use the tactic, thus being something that isn’t as passive

    Not sure I like watchtower being removed from towers but again, it encourages ‘scouting’ and less passive game play

    It would help in the keeps for thiefs but also allow for less hindrance running around the BLs for thief toons.

    Interesting..

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Solution:
    1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target
    2) make revealed not removable
    3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

    People would still complain because that reveal wouldn't be added to one of their metabattle mandated skills they use.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    When I approach a Sentry I get Marked, which means I'm visible on the mini map. I take this in to consideration any time I decide to capture a Sentry because I know it means there's a risk involved and there's high potential for people to be heading my way. I also know when I fully capture the node Marked will expire, therefore doing so is obviously my priority.

    I also don't fight around towers, especially ones with Watch Tower, because again I know I'll be visible on the mini map. I also know fighting around towers in general is a bad idea for more than a few reasons; it's too easy for my opponent(s) to retreat inside, they could get reinforcements, they could use siege, NPC's could add unnecessary pressure.

    Thieves have extremely high mobility and more control over where and when a fight happens than any other profession. You can't run away from a Thief that's not finished with you, but a Thief that's prepared can choose where the fight starts, ends and where it moves.

    Anyone that doesn't heavily rely on Stealth will think similarly to myself. They'll consider their vulnerability when taking a Sentry, they'll avoid fighting near objectives. But then we have some people who seem to forego logic in favor of mechanics because Stealth can crutch their mistakes. IE, without Marked, certain Stealth heavy builds can push their luck regardless of location because they're immune to a Tactic thats' purpose is to highlight players on the map.

    I'm sorry, but I don't find it to be any less fair for Thieves to have Reveal forced upon them when Marked than it is for any other class to be nakedly visible on the map. The radius of Watch Tower and Sentry isn't any different for Thieves. Consider the risks of being Marked before entering that vicinity, or don't do it.

    I think you missed the point of this post. I'm trying to suggest something to help you find a deadeye hiding in an objective, not asking for nerfs to marked. I'm not asking for it to be taken away completely either, but that you have more control over when it's applied so you can flush someone out with it. I'm also trying to do this in a way that encourages actual scouting, as I believe automated defenses are generally bad for the mode.

    Just for clarification, I can take or leave this change I've suggested. There's ways around the map, EB in particular, that avoid being marked as you attack camps if you know them, and mounts make taking sentries less dangerous for all classes. I'm happy for there to be more counterplay for finding thieves inside enemy objectives, so long as it's not an automatic thing the objective does by itself. It is a fact, however, that marked hits thieves harder than any other class because stealth is one of the main defenses thief has. So what I'm trying to do is find a middle ground, one that gives acceptable, usable counterplay to players trying to secure their keep, but also ensures that we're not just adding more ways to screw over thieves so that we thief players still have a reasonable experience in game. If anyone has a better idea than what I've posted, I'd genuinely love to hear it :)

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    Watchtower covers only a small portion of the map. If fighting there is inconvenient for a thief, they have plenty of other grounds to haunt. Likewise, sentries are sparse, predictable and easily flipped. Given that a 'fight' for a thief is usually just insta-gibbing some poor soul, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to have small pockets where you're somewhat more likely to see what kills you.

    I'm not at all convinced that this is a problem or even as burdensome as you make it out to be. Admittedly, it's attempting to solve one problem with a hamfisted counter, but that's practically Anet's signature move...

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Watchtower covers only a small portion of the map. If fighting there is inconvenient for a thief, they have plenty of other grounds to haunt. Likewise, sentries are sparse, predictable and easily flipped.

    Most of the maps aren't used, there aren't plenty of other grounds to "haunt" because people don't to go to those areas.

    @Sviel.7493 said:
    Given that a 'fight' for a thief is usually just insta-gibbing some poor soul, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to have small pockets where you're somewhat more likely to see what kills you.
    I'm not at all convinced that this is a problem or even as burdensome as you make it out to be. Admittedly, it's attempting to solve one problem with a hamfisted counter, but that's practically Anet's signature move...

    At least we know where you're coming from when you cry about thieves and try to dress up your posts as legit concerns. The thief will be visible when they kill you, if they're rifle DE you'll probably see their trail as they reposition. If they're not Rifle DE they're probably not going so deep or they're not a stealth heavy build.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @kash.9213
    Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

    Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

    edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

    edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kash.9213
    Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

    Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

    edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

    edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

    I do roam on EB most of the time as it happens, more players and more interesting fights to be had generally speaking. I am a deadeye main, but I'm not running a one shot build, more of a boonsteal skirmisher thing with S/D as my offset, not dagger mainhand. I was running DA trick DE before the rework, and frankly if rending shade was in another traitline I'd use that over SA. It just so happens I like the rework as it's less focussed on camping stealth and more on frequently weaving stealth now. Kash is likely reacting as he is because we've spoken about builds a few times in various threads, and he knows what I tend to run.

    Again though, my post wasn't saying that marked from towers is OP and should be removed. Honestly, I could take or leave the watchtower being removed. I mostly suggested that my tactivator mark idea replace the sentry tower upgrade as it would be redundant from a design perspective to have both.

    To reiterate, my suggestion was this; Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps. I don't want to change sentries, as they're irrelevant to the problem I'm trying to address. I don't want to change what marked does on a fundamental level. I want the players to have control over deploying it and increase it's effectiveness in keeps in order to flush out thieves, and to compensate by it not being a 100% uptime thing which would hopefully have the effect of forcing some thought into how it is used. This imo would be a good step towards encouraging active scouting and division of forces across a map instead of the uberblob thing we have now, and would thus be healthy for the game overall. That is all.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213
    While Marked is ruining your day in a particular way, I don't think your suggestion preserves the main intended use of it.

    Tactical marking inside a keep/tower is a good idea, though I think it should come standard (like cannons/oil) instead of crowding out every other tactivator. The clear use of that is to flush out portal chumps.

    But the marking in the area around the tower is primarily meant to give them a control function. It's not super helpful with scouting attacks (at least in the borderlands) as most of the siege can take place outside of Watchtower range, but it's great for spotting roamers or zergs headed to the all-important North Camp (again, on the borderlands). They can still reach it undetected, but you now have a smaller area to watch. That's not something that will be very useful if it has to be done manually.

    Granted, Watchtower is very different beast on EBG with three times the towers stuffed into a smaller area. It's still good for spotting zergs/roamers, but much more effective. In order to avoid both screwing over thieves and screwing over the borderlands, what do you think about splitting the Marked status into two separate entities? Marked One could function as it does now and be manually triggered or applied by Sentries. Marked Two could remain automatic and put you on the mini-map, but not break stealth. They'd need different names/colors, but would generally be statuses that mean "you're not welcome in this area and must take some objective to fix that."

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kash.9213
    While Marked is ruining your day in a particular way, I don't think your suggestion preserves the main intended use of it.

    Tactical marking inside a keep/tower is a good idea, though I think it should come standard (like cannons/oil) instead of crowding out every other tactivator. The clear use of that is to flush out portal chumps.

    But the marking in the area around the tower is primarily meant to give them a control function. It's not super helpful with scouting attacks (at least in the borderlands) as most of the siege can take place outside of Watchtower range, but it's great for spotting roamers or zergs headed to the all-important North Camp (again, on the borderlands). They can still reach it undetected, but you now have a smaller area to watch. That's not something that will be very useful if it has to be done manually.

    Granted, Watchtower is very different beast on EBG with three times the towers stuffed into a smaller area. It's still good for spotting zergs/roamers, but much more effective. In order to avoid both screwing over thieves and screwing over the borderlands, what do you think about splitting the Marked status into two separate entities? Marked One could function as it does now and be manually triggered or applied by Sentries. Marked Two could remain automatic and put you on the mini-map, but not break stealth. They'd need different names/colors, but would generally be statuses that mean "you're not welcome in this area and must take some objective to fix that."

    I'd be fine with having two different versions of marked, makes perfect sense the way you'd described it. Forgive me if my last post came over a bit strong, I was just trying to be clear on what I meant ^^

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They could just skip the veiled attempt to get rid of watch tower, and just add the new t1 tactic to reveal the entire structure.

    Hiding in structures is so annoying I haven't bothered to do that in years and I don't care to sweep anything anymore, waste of time for something that'll probably flip when people aren't on anyways.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Solution:
    1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target
    2) make revealed not removable
    3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

    Pretty much this.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Problem with tactivators is they can be trolled.

    They should just bump the Mark + Stealth -> Reveal threshold to be anything greater than 4 seconds and be done with it. Now a maximum single application of stealth won't force reveal, but chaining stealth in any capacity will.

    You can still run with OP's idea by putting keep-wide automatic 1s reveal (to break existing stealth)+ internal mark on an early tactivator to prevent stragglers from staying inside a structure, but the biggest issue with Mark is that it reveals after a mere 2s of stealth, when the minimum timeout is 3s and there are traits to extend it to 4s.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Solution:
    1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target
    2) make revealed not removable
    3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

    Pretty much this.

    What are we replacing stealth attacks and related traits with after that?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    They could just skip the veiled attempt to get rid of watch tower, and just add the new t1 tactic to reveal the entire structure.

    That's also fine. If I mean something, be sure I'll say it ^^

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Problem with tactivators is they can be trolled.

    This is true. That's the problem with giving players choice in any capacity tho.

    They should just bump the Mark + Stealth -> Reveal threshold to be anything greater than 4 seconds and be done with it. Now a maximum single application of stealth won't force reveal, but chaining stealth in any capacity will.

    This would also work. Making this change to reveal, keeping watchtower and giving towers and keeps a marked tactivator would also be an acceptable solution.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • @kash.9213 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Solution:
    1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target
    2) make revealed not removable
    3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

    Pretty much this.

    What are we replacing stealth attacks and related traits with after that?

    A /cry emote for thieves and mesmers?

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Solution:
    1) give every class a reveal without the need to have a target
    2) make revealed not removable
    3) make revealed last 6-8 seconds

    Pretty much this.

    What are we replacing stealth attacks and related traits with after that?

    A /cry emote for thieves and

    This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • @Sviel.7493 said:
    @kash.9213
    Watchtower is rarely ever on southern towers in the borderland, which leaves ~90% of the map unwatched. If you're talking about EBG, there's much more potential coverage, but in reality anywhere with action should be seeing towers constantly get reset.

    Actually, I play almost exclusively thief myself. Deadeyes are one of my easiest matchups--I honestly can't recall the last time I died to one in a 1v1. However, as thief is largely an assassin class when they use enough stealth to complain about marked, they obviously focus on insta-gibbing. This isn't rocket science...

    edit: Though if OP is referring to EBG, then I'm definitely more sympathetic to his concerns as that's a much tighter map with more potential coverage. Seeing as I go to EBG maybe a half-dozen times a year, I didn't consider it in my initial post.

    edit2: Maybe a lower radius on EBG is in order? Or seperate tactics between EBG and the Borderlands since they're practically two different game modes.

    Actually your incorrect by only 1/2. We do slap Watchtower on those towers...if the time counter has elapsed that we can actually slot something in there. But we no longer keep live guard players or scouts in those southern areas anymore, that the tower is usually lost pretty quickly, before Watchtower can even be slotted in.

  • More active gameplay from Both sides
    I appr> @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    So people are annoyed about thieves hiding in structures. Thieves are annoyed about being randomly marked by sentries and towers in half the map. The solution doesn't currently seem to be pleasing anyone.

    So here's a suggestion. Take away tower sentry field upgrade, and replace it with a tactivator activated upgrade that gives marked in the area for 5 mins on a 10 min cooldown (or whatever) like when a keep is just capped. Give this upgrade to keeps also, and make it one of the early upgrades for both towers and keeps.

    With this change, unmanned towers become less obnoxious to fight around for stealth classes, but players can now selectively use marked tactic to flush out players hiding when needed without needing to repeatedly nerf said classes or introduce more stupid mechanics. Making it a T1 upgrade means the hiding players have a short window to do their thing, so it's not a guaranteed win, but you're not gonna be hunting them for the next three hours because they'll be forced to leave when the tactivator is used. It also promotes active scouting, as you don't just get a map marker on the enemy zerg for having an upgraded tower, while sentries still retain that functionality since that's the entire point of them being there.

    Discuss.

    Active gameplay from defenders
    I approve
    Still no fix on permastealth
    I dont approve

  • Get rid of stealth Stupid mechanic anyways

  • Well, thank you for the genuine responses in the thread. To those not being constructive, I guess I'll just go back to killing you in your own objectives.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    Fix to all the peoples problems is easy any dps produced from stealth is reduced by 50%.but remove all the map reveals and leave it to players to use reveals.
    There all done!
    Lol

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    It's pretty easy to simply implement a Supply costed Reveal field, with instant cast.

    It takes 10 so yu can only reveal only twice anywhere on the field with 25 supply cap.

    It will instantly make people who use it right beat thieves or stealth spammers.

    Stealth players will then have to bait out 2 reveals to give the enemy some challenge.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

    The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.
    There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.
    I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

    The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.
    There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.
    I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

    What you don’t understand is it’s not my class. Necro/Ele main here.

    And given I understand that thief is a hard counter to necro, I get it...

    Length of stealth is more the issue.

    Marked/sentry etc not an issue. Good thief players avoid it.

    If you truly want this addressed: go to the thief professions forum section and post there. In here? It’s just bluster.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Invictorum.7643 well said.

    I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

    Any well played class is tough to play.

    With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

    Now, I don’t think the way stealth is right now is fully healthy. But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Invictorum.7643 well said.

    I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

    Any well played class is tough to play.

    With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

    Now, I don’t think the way stealth is right now is fully healthy. But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

    Thats the thing many people don't consider. The amount of mechanics in this game right now is beyond unhealthy.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW#meta

    So far every build I have found on that site is unhealthy. ALL of them need nerfs. Scourges, DE's, Holo's, Soulbeasts, Firebrands, Cele weavers, condi mirages etc. The list is endless. Occasionally, one particular build will stand out. Like Deadeye before the nerfs, and sicem+rapidfire+unstoppable union before it was nerfed etc. Some classes needed emergency nerfs. Tbh Firebrand could use an emergency nerf but i digress.

    People want to remove stealth? Fine. But make sure allll those other things are brought down too. Because right now, thief, which is still good despite what some alarmists will tell you, certainly doesn't stand above them.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Invictorum.7643 well said.

    I think more people need to spend a few hours playing thief to understand a little better their weaknesses.

    Any well played class is tough to play.

    With a non typical cool down process for skills based on initiative, it is kind of a foreign animal for people.

    Now, I don’t think the way stealth is **right now is fully healthy.** But the young cats who want to delete stealth are people that have no idea what they are actually asking for.

    That's pretty much where I'm at with gw2 stealth. Until there's some clear threshold in stealth duration stack like 4s or something that cuts off the ability to stealth attack and makes you toggle out before attacking, any map counter to stealth duration that's just static like that only creates the need to rework stealth related traits and skills or it's a kitten move to certain builds. I think the OP idea is pretty fair, and I'd even be okay with the effect being a little more impactful in the immediate term as long as it's deliberate and not static.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    This just in: Shroud being removed from necro core and reaper.

    The problem you don't understand is that reveal doesn't kill your class and neither does a watch tower. It just nerfs a really overpowered mechanic. And yes, your reaction to a justified nerf isn't more than crying about losing your op status. At the moment there is no counterplay to stealth - especially not with deadeye reveal removal and the fact that many reveals have a) very low radius b) very few usable reveals on the builds and c) reveal tied to a targetting mechanic.
    There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs.
    I'd go that far and say stealth has done more damage to wvw than Anets changes with mounts, gliding, auto-upgrades and boon/condition changes or even linking.

    Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

    Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

    Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

    Why are you trying to derail the whole topic by "but in one or two pvp seasons". PvP is a complete other issue. This isn't the pvp forum btw.

    I made an excellent suggestion how to fix that broken mechanic and the first reaction was "LOL DESTROYS THE CLASS" which is a) completely wrong and b) the kind of discussion coming from people that want to keep their easy mode.
    I don't think the tower reveal needs a rework. The reveal in general needs a rework. We got the reveal skill to have a counter to stealth because of the times before PoF and still the reveals for classes are on tied to mostly useless skills and most builds viable don't even have access.

    The question that still stands is: Who thought giving thieves a portal skill would be a great idea?

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @gebrechen.5643 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    Regarding times when classes with access to stealth not being viable, you clearly didn't play thief in the first couple of PvP seasons after HoT release. I remember people afk'ing until I swapped to another class, that's how popular thieves were. Also, do you remember the meme of power mesmer is not viable, Lord Helseth is viable? There's a reason that was funny in vanilla. All of this is completely off topic though, since I was making a suggestion to counter people hiding in keeps.

    Consider this; here I am suggesting a change to help you deal with stealth classes hiding in objectives, to give you that counterplay to stealth that you assert does not exist, and all you can do is throw it back at us and tell us to stop complaining about something I didn't actually complain about in the first place. When you're ready to have a reasoned discussion beyond "stealth OP", I'll be all ears. Until then, enjoy being killed by stealth classes, I guess.

    Why are you trying to derail the whole topic by "but in one or two pvp seasons". PvP is a complete other issue. This isn't the pvp forum btw.

    I made an excellent suggestion how to fix that broken mechanic and the first reaction was "LOL DESTROYS THE CLASS" which is a) completely wrong and b) the kind of discussion coming from people that want to keep their easy mode.
    I don't think the tower reveal needs a rework. The reveal in general needs a rework. We got the reveal skill to have a counter to stealth because of the times before PoF and still the reveals for classes are on tied to mostly useless skills and most builds viable don't even have access.

    The question that still stands is: Who thought giving thieves a portal skill would be a great idea?

    I was replying to this?

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    There isn't a single other mechanic that is so terribly unbalanced since the release of that game. I can't remember a time where classes that had easy access to stealth weren't viable or even overpowered and the problem I personally have with this is that this is what kills that game mode in small scale, roaming, pvp and even zergs

    It's hardly a derailment when it's a direct reply to something you stated.

    I will admit your first comment was on point, but although the reply was more sarcastic than it could have been, he has a point. The thing you're not realising is that reveal does screw over thieves disproportionately because it's one of our main defensive skills and power creep means people get blown up faster than they used to. Adding more reveal hasn't fixed the problem of people hiding as of yet, everyone has access to the traps and tricks, so unless you go for something like I'm suggesting you're not going to get a deadeye out of your tower anytime soon.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    The thing you're not realising is that reveal does screw over thieves disproportionately because it's one of our main defensive skills and power creep means people get blown up faster than they used to.

    You're wasting your time with him I think, Its clear that all his posts are driven by emotion when it comes to thieves, and I'd be willing to bet my quip he hasn't played any thief stealth build in his entire time with the game.

    Nerf what I don't play, buff what I play. A tale as old as time.

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