5 Ways to Fix Conjures (That would actually work) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

5 Ways to Fix Conjures (That would actually work)

Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 15, 2019 in Elementalist

Does anyone deny that if we gave engineers access to the four attunements, they would instantly become massively overpowered? That, or, the entire class would be re-balanced (read: nerfed) around having all those new skills? No one can, those are the only two possible conclusions to that scenario.

Elementalists and Engineers already suffer from reduced output per skill because they are meant to have as much output as the remaining classes, but spread over more skill uses. Combining engineer kits with the elementalist attunements, would just exacerbate that issue, giving elementalists so many skills that we'd end up nerfed into using a dozen skills or more for the same output the other classes get out of one. Not to mention that would basically be revamping the entire elementalist class, just to get one set of utility skills to work, an enormous undertaking and a complete waste of development time and resources.

Suggesting we "just change conjures to kits" is neither a functional nor realistic solution to their issues.

But, conjures are far from okay, they work directly contrary to the elementalists class mechanic, and we're not like thieves or warriors where the class mechanic can be a lesser or greater part of our gameplay, attuning is the mechanism by which you play and there is no way around that. The reality is, conjures need to work alongside attunements while retaining some form of accessibility control as a balance mechanism, namely cooldowns and uptime, mechanisms which kits do not have.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few suggestions on how to fix conjures that would allow us to use them without being locked out of our standard weapon skills, this list is far from exhaustive but I've compiled the ones I can remember here for everyone to consider.


OPTION 1: Conjures replace an attunement on a standard utility skill cooldown and duration

Basically, using the conjure utility skill would cause the conjured weapon to overwrite the attunement you are in for the conjured weapons duration, and using the conjure utility skill again, would dispel the conjured weapon early and return the overwritten attunement. But for the conjured weapons duration, before it runs out (or you dispel it), it will be on your attunement bar, allowing you to attune into and out of it like any other attunement.

EXAMPLE: Let's say you need AoE spam. So you are in earth attunement, you cast "Conjure Frost Bow", Earth Attunement is now overwritten by the Frost Bow conjure for Frost Bows duration of 30s, you use Frost Storm, swap over to Fire, cast Meteor Shower and Lava Font, swap _back_ to Frost Bow, and use Frost Storm one more time before the 30 second duration runs out, at which time, your earth attunement comes back and frost bow goes on its 30 second cooldown. (Technically it is 60 seconds, but that is with its 30 second duration)

This method addresses conjures issues of locking us out of the attuenment system, while retaining an interesting drawback that could be used to retain balance. It also retains the ability to "drop" an environmental weapon version for other players, and is similar to how conjures work now, so it would require less work to implement and balance. The downside is, this maintains the pithy 50% uptime that a lot of people do not like about conjures. There is also a version of this suggestion where you cannot dispel the conjure early, as a drawback for greater uptime/reduced cooldowns on conjured weapons.


OPTION 2: Conjures replace an attunement as part of the attunement systems existing cooldowns

Similar to above, when you use the conjure utility skill, it will overwrite your current attunement with the conjured weapon, but when you attune out of the conjured weapon to another element, the conjured weapon will be "dropped" back to the utility skill bar, and will go on cooldown according to your current builds attunement cooldown, for example, 10 seconds for base ele or 8.5 second for base ele with Elemental Enchantment. The utility skill would also share the attunements global CD limitation, and, while the conjured weapon is equipped, recasting it would dispel it, allowing you to reach the skills it is overwriting.

Example: Same scenario, you need AoE Spam. You are in earth attunement, cast "Conjure Frost Bow", earth attunement is now overwritten by the Frost Bow conjure, you use Frost Storm, then swap to fire. When you swap to fire the "Frost Bow" attunement changes back to Earth Attunement and the Conjure Frost Bow utility skill goes on your attunement cooldown of 10 seconds. You cast your meteor shower and lava font, you have a second or two to wait for the attunement CD, then you cast frostbow again, overwriting your fire attunement and cast Frost Storm again.

This version solves the same issue as the previous, that you cannot use conjures and attune between the skills you need in a pinch, but it does so while removing the 50% uptime imposed by the conjures duration and cooldown. Because of the significant increases in uptime, this would require more rebalancing than the previous option, but not nearly as bad as 100% uptime and no cooldowns, like kits. I don't really see any way of retaining the dropped version of the weapon with this method, as there is no longer a duration for the dropped weapon to use, and summoning a new one every 10 seconds (or less) based off of the attunement cooldown could get out of hand really fast.


OPTION 3: Conjures replace an attunement as a pre-combat choice

The most drastic change so far, as with the previous two versions, when cast, conjures would overwrite the attunement you are currently in, however unlike the others, you would only be able to choose to overwrite attunements when _out of combat_, and would not be able to drop attunements when in combat, basically making conjured attunements permanent build choices. Once you enter combat, the skills would "flip" to versions that allow you to cast an AoE skill, which would spawn the environmental version at the center of the AoE for players to pick up, including the elementalist.

Example: You need AoE spam, again. There are two ways you can go about this, one, prior to combat, while in earth attunement, cast your Conjure Frost Bow to overwrite your earth attunement with Frost Bow. When you enter combat, you will be able to swap between Fire and Frost Bow to cast your AoEs as if they were any of the standard two attunements. Option two, you do not cast conjure frost bow prior to entering combat, it still flips over to the AoE spell, and when you want to use Frost Storm, you cast the AoE to summon a Frost bow, pick it up, use the skill, and drop the frost bow, just as you would now.

There are a lot of ups and downs to this version, the primary thing is, by permanently overwriting an attunement with "no backsies", the devs would be able to invest the greatest amount of power in the skills, even making the conjured weapons equal in power with the standard attunements, because they would no longer be in danger of the power creep of a fifth attunement, but instead a customization choice of one of the four. This version also solves the issues with not being able to attune while using conjures, and retains the functionality of the dropped weapon to support other players or the elementalist with workable and balanced limitations.


OPTION 4: Conjures work similar to (old) banners

Not a fan of this one but its been out there in the ether and people deserve to know the option, going completely in the opposite direction, some players have suggested instead of working conjures into the attunement system, you excise them from the system entirely. Under this option, conjures would have a duration and cooldown, and when you conjure a weapon it would appear on the field, where you could pick it up, use any of its skills, and put it down, however unlike now, when you put it down, it would remain there until you pick it up again, or its duration ran out. Basically, they would work like banners did before their recent rework.

Example: You need AoE Spam, you cast Frost bow while in earth attunement, switch over to fire attunement, your frostbow still in hand, cast Frost Storm, drop the frost bow, cast Meteor Shower and Lava Font, pick the frostbow back up, and cast Frost Storm again.

This version probably maintains the most similar functionality to how conjures currently work, and similar to the first option, would be most easy for the devs to implement and balance. This version sort of fixes the issue with attuning competing with conjures, by removing the interaction altogether. It does definitely have issues though, for one, you can't stay in one spot all the time, you would be at risk of being zoned away from your dropped conjure, and for two, it retains the 50% uptime that a lot of players do not like about current conjures.


OPTION 5: Pull conjures from the base class and add them to an elite specialization

Really REALLY not a fan of this one, but it was suggested back when the did just this to Guardian Tomes, and it would legitimately solve the issue. Basically, remove conjures from the base class, replace them with another skill set, and place them on an elite specialization as a class mechanic, allowing you to swap any of the elemental attunements out for a conjured attunement, no fussing with utility skills needed.

Example: Look at option 3, think that, except it would be through a unique UI element instead of through a utility skill.

As I stated I don't like this one for obvious reasons, no one likes their shiny new content actually being revamped content the devs previously removed from the game. Nonetheless, this would solve conjures issues, and with an entire elite spec dedicated to the mechanic, it would be clean, allow for conjures to retain something similar to their environmental weapon support mechanic, and give the devs to have a much more managable power bank to work with.


Miscellaneous

Q: What about the Weaver? It only attunes a half an attunement at a time. How would it work with conjures overwriting attunements?

A: Pretty simple really, attuning into and out of a conjure would just ignore that system, just how unravel works except permanently. This could actually be a useful expansion of the class, because you would now have an option of "full-attuning" to elements with clever use of the conjures.

Q: Also, what about the class mechanic for the Tempest, overloads?

A: I could see overloads going two ways, either overloads would just ignore conjures, EG attuning to a Frost Bow over Earth would allow you to use Earth Overload. Or, I could see making the conjures a part of the overload system an option, EG attuning to a frost bow over Earth would allow you to use the Water Overload.

Comments

  • Are you tired of other people picking up YOUR conjured weapons? I present you with an idea that will make conjured weapons far more easy to use and maybe actually give some of the unused ones a fun little place to be used. I present you with the idea that Conjure Weapons should be just like Engi Kits where you use them and stow them. You know we would all love it for this to be a thing.

    :D

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  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    We should just start a petition and start getting signatures

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    Some of my proposed changes to Frost Bow:

    Frostbow's 20% healing effect only works when u land a very clunky projectile and the effect doesn't last long enough to use other abilities while you have it. Frost bow is a damage weapon it seems, probably the only reason we have damage traits in the water line in the first place (which makes water also a bit clunky).

    Frost bow should just be completely revamped, to be more of a utility based skill that is actually in line with it's healing contribution and just forgo it's focus on damage.

    1) Erase the 20% healing effect on projectile.
    2) Make Frostbow 2 have a +20% Healing modifier buff that you use on a cooldown. Real simple no need to make it perma. Just a buff that lasts for 10-15 seconds.
    3) Make Frostbow 3 a 450 range forward evade that procures a path of frost, healing allies that cross it and slowing foes that cross it.
    4) Make Frostbow 4 a healing ability similar to the guardian spirit weapon bow, in which your ice arrows do healing per impact. It can keep it's damage component. If you remove the damage component, make it so you can walk while channeling the ability.
    5) Make Frostbow 5 an AOE Allied targeted Ice block that coats 5 nearby allies in ice, protecting them for 3-5 seconds. Protecting would mean applying some sort of buff like a barrier, or some boons, or some unique effect that reduces damage or condition damage.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Some of my proposed changes to Frost Bow:

    Frostbow's 20% healing effect only works when u land a very clunky projectile and the effect doesn't last long enough to use other abilities while you have it. Frost bow is a damage weapon it seems, probably the only reason we have damage traits in the water line in the first place (which makes water also a bit clunky).

    Frost bow should just be completely revamped, to be more of a utility based skill that is actually in line with it's healing contribution and just forgo it's focus on damage.

    1) Erase the 20% healing effect on projectile.
    2) Make Frostbow 2 have a +20% Healing modifier buff that you use on a cooldown. Real simple no need to make it perma. Just a buff that lasts for 10-15 seconds.
    3) Make Frostbow 3 a 450 range forward evade that procures a path of frost, healing allies that cross it and slowing foes that cross it.
    4) Make Frostbow 4 a healing ability similar to the guardian spirit weapon bow, in which your ice arrows do healing per impact. It can keep it's damage component. If you remove the damage component, make it so you can walk while channeling the ability.
    5) Make Frostbow 5 an AOE Allied targeted Ice block that coats 5 nearby allies in ice, protecting them for 3-5 seconds. Protecting would mean applying some sort of buff like a barrier, or some boons, or some unique effect that reduces damage or condition damage.

    Great ideas, just change number 3. Ele has too many forward dash evades. Also, if a character is welding shortbow, the last thing he wants to do is dash forward, into a fight

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @Stallic.2397 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Some of my proposed changes to Frost Bow:

    Frostbow's 20% healing effect only works when u land a very clunky projectile and the effect doesn't last long enough to use other abilities while you have it. Frost bow is a damage weapon it seems, probably the only reason we have damage traits in the water line in the first place (which makes water also a bit clunky).

    Frost bow should just be completely revamped, to be more of a utility based skill that is actually in line with it's healing contribution and just forgo it's focus on damage.

    1) Erase the 20% healing effect on projectile.
    2) Make Frostbow 2 have a +20% Healing modifier buff that you use on a cooldown. Real simple no need to make it perma. Just a buff that lasts for 10-15 seconds.
    3) Make Frostbow 3 a 450 range forward evade that procures a path of frost, healing allies that cross it and slowing foes that cross it.
    4) Make Frostbow 4 a healing ability similar to the guardian spirit weapon bow, in which your ice arrows do healing per impact. It can keep it's damage component. If you remove the damage component, make it so you can walk while channeling the ability.
    5) Make Frostbow 5 an AOE Allied targeted Ice block that coats 5 nearby allies in ice, protecting them for 3-5 seconds. Protecting would mean applying some sort of buff like a barrier, or some boons, or some unique effect that reduces damage or condition damage.

    Great ideas, just change number 3. Ele has too many forward dash evades. Also, if a character is welding shortbow, the last thing he wants to do is dash forward, into a fight

    Ya your right. Was kinda stumped on what i wanted Frostbow 3 to be without losing the idea that it's a shortbow. So i suppose a backward evade would be better...or if you don't want it to evade that's fine as well, just a backward roll that leaves behind a line field.

    Alternatively, it could be a forward dash (Or Backward Dash) that at the end of the dash plants an arrow in the ground which creates an ice shard monolith. The shard monolith shatters arrows that chills foes in a 360 radius and heals allies in a 360 radius. This dash can be an ammo skill too so that every time you use it you can create more ice monoliths. Would make playing Frostbow pretty fun.

  • Well what I like most about conjures is that it’s a weapon set you can use that allows you to remain in the same attunment. So if I’m in water attunement and I’ve used al the CDs on my water skills, then I can use a conjure weapon and use more skills while still in water attunement. I think that’s a pretty valuable asset to the conjures

    The main issue I see with conjures is that the abilities themselves aren’t all that great, or don’t mesh well. Earth conjure is probably the best one while frostbow is the worst.

    Improving the flow and usefulness of the conjures themselves would be the most ideal thing. Making them kits would also be a plus. I’m really not on the side of swapping conjures for attunements even though it is a unique idea.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    The main issue I see with conjures is that the abilities themselves aren’t all that great, or don’t mesh well. Earth conjure is probably the best one while frostbow is the worst.

    And in previous iterations Ice Bow (as it was called), Lightning Hammer, and Firey Greatsword were meta, the only conjure that's never seen use is the Lava Axe. Conjures have been nerfed and buffed up and down and back around again since launch day and it's never improved their use, only shuffled which skills are used in their shallow pop-and-drop playstyle. No amount of buffs or nerfs are going to reconcile that conjures do not work with the attunement system, and elementalists do not work without the attunement system.

  • @Conncept.7638 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    The main issue I see with conjures is that the abilities themselves aren’t all that great, or don’t mesh well. Earth conjure is probably the best one while frostbow is the worst.

    And in previous iterations Ice Bow (as it was called), Lightning Hammer, and Firey Greatsword were meta, the only conjure that's never seen use is the Lava Axe. Conjures have been nerfed and buffed up and down and back around again since launch day and it's never improved their use, only shuffled which skills are used in their shallow pop-and-drop playstyle. No amount of buffs or nerfs are going to reconcile that conjures do not work with the attunement system, and elementalists do not work without the attunement system.

    I mean frost bow and lightning hammer just had balance issues with the current skills they already had. Frostbow was only meta because of one skill that was over performing in pve. But the majority of the skills on frostbow are terrible and don’t fit with the stat choice on the weapon.

    I forgot about fiery great sword which is actually meta and a valuable choice because the skills on it are actually rather good. Magnetic shield is also pretty good now and I use it in some of my builds. The other 3 lack any sort of flow and like you said were just gimmick at best because of problem skills.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaspar.3892 said:
    Are you tired of other people picking up YOUR conjured weapons? I present you with an idea that will make conjured weapons far more easy to use and maybe actually give some of the unused ones a fun little place to be used. I present you with the idea that Conjure Weapons should be just like Engi Kits where you use them and stow them. You know we would all love it for this to be a thing.

    :D

    Been asking this for years. It seems so simple to do... Is ANet afraid of having a class too complex? I think that they're afraid that we simply use the conjured weapon everytime we have a hole in our rotation. Like for example if I want to use Earth Sword 3 which deals reasonable damage, I'll have to wait a moment auto attacking in earth before I can dual attune, so if conjured weapons could be used liberally I would just fill this downtime. That might mess with the balance and be the reason they're not doing it. It works on engineer because they don't have weapon swap.

    That said, the conjuring mechanic really needs to go. It's clunky, unpleasant to play... What if the weapons had like a 30 seconds cooldown and we could keep them for as long as we want? If that's too powerful, maybe make it so that the cooldown only starts refilling when we drop the weapon?

  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be great if conjures had a complete rework, and functioned like engi kits.
    Several skills also need updating, frost bow should act as a healing weapon not a spike damage and cc one, while flame axe, fiery greatsword and lightning hammer should do more dps than primordial stance pulsing dps @ArenaNet

    [eA] Sakura | Kaineng

  • @ROMANG.1903 said:
    That said, the conjuring mechanic really needs to go. It's clunky, unpleasant to play... What if the weapons had like a 30 seconds cooldown and we could keep them for as long as we want? If that's too powerful, maybe make it so that the cooldown only starts refilling when we drop the weapon?

    I'd be down for having a 30s CD start when we're done using the conjured weapon. That would make certain people stop complaining about this being too OP (when it really wouldn't).

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  • Conjured weapons should have been removed a long time ago. A class that was designed to have so many weak skills and no weapon swap (because they have so many skills in general), really should have been the last class to have conjures dumped on it. Conjures add more (temporary) skills which just compounds issues with trying to balance the class. If you make conjures remotely useable, they become "required" for skill rotations (as per raid reqs - which WAY too many people take WAY too seriously). If you make conjures too weak, who would bother using them?

    They are one giant mess, that only cause more issues trying to balance the class. I'd remove them completely. Then balance the class. I wouldn't even replace them. Its a trash set, that has what? One actual trait directly related to them? Remove the conjures (was always a stupid idea on this class), remove what extremely little trait(s) exist that interact with them, then balance the class.

  • @Henrik.7560 said:
    It would be great if conjures had a complete rework, and functioned like engi kits.
    Several skills also need updating, frost bow should act as a healing weapon not a spike damage and cc one, while flame axe, fiery greatsword and lightning hammer should do more dps than primordial stance pulsing dps @ArenaNet

    Definitely on the rework of those weapons, They should primarily be for the skills that they increase while being held. It's almost sad how little usage Flame Axe and Earth Shield get.

    Blackgate : Siege Warriors [SW]
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  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just make them Kit based skills to be honest.
    Rework the cds and effectiveness of the skills themselves
    The idea of sharing the conjures these days is pretty much lackluster when most ele's use a conjure they dont want other people to pick it up because its part of their rotation with the only exception being the frost bow which can be used for extra cc.

    Generally though a pick up put down system like engi kits would make all the conjure weapons much better i would totally use the flame axe lol

  • If we keep pushing for kitbased conjures, think @ArenaNet will listen to us?

    Just keep whispering in their ear: "kit based conjures" while sacrificing stuff to the mystic forge.

    Blackgate : Siege Warriors [SW]
    twitch.tv/Azhkanizkael

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Snow White.1842 said:
    Conjured weapons should have been removed a long time ago. A class that was designed to have so many weak skills and no weapon swap (because they have so many skills in general), really should have been the last class to have conjures dumped on it. Conjures add more (temporary) skills which just compounds issues with trying to balance the class. If you make conjures remotely useable, they become "required" for skill rotations (as per raid reqs - which WAY too many people take WAY too seriously). If you make conjures too weak, who would bother using them?

    They are one giant mess, that only cause more issues trying to balance the class. I'd remove them completely. Then balance the class. I wouldn't even replace them. Its a trash set, that has what? One actual trait directly related to them? Remove the conjures (was always a stupid idea on this class), remove what extremely little trait(s) exist that interact with them, then balance the class.

    My sentiment, also.

  • I mean, I'd rather they stay in the game in a weaker form than that they be removed entirely.

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