KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now)

Skyronight.6370Skyronight.6370 Member ✭✭
edited September 19, 2019 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

<13

Comments

  • Skyronight.6370Skyronight.6370 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

    The KP check is there for a reason because in the past people were using bs requirements like AP. Elitism was more dominant in vanilla GW2 during dungeon peak time. People always were and still are trying to find some sort of common denominator to ensure to get competent players into their group. The KP requirement is absorbing the hard way you have to go instead. Without KPs good players would have to search & kick a lot of folks and that would simply prolonge the whole thing in getting a boss killed. All that is the result of the very split player base in GW2 and with a majority that doesn't even know the skills of their classes. With such players you would definitely have 0 success in raids at all but they would join your groups - at least they did in the past and are still doing so in my fractal groups with requirements!
    Of course it's not a super easy thing to get into raiding for a competent player but with some practice runs and effort you'll get your kills and from that on KPs here and there. A gentle plea to a commander who insists in many KPs can help to get an invite for a try. Lots of them will take you with them and if you can carry your weight nobody will say anything.
    I'm very happy that the KP thing exists. It spared me a lot of time to get a decent team together. Sure, raiders have requested a better system from the start but Arenanet hasn't delivered here so they needed to take the best thing they could get.
    Additionally your thought of making raid bosses harder would only decimate the already weakened raiding community. You would even need more super competent players to get things done and I'm more than sure this would kill raids, at least pug raiding.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

    If there are no KP the we'd have AP requirements or pinging of legendary armor itself before you can join a Raid team. The real barrier is not being able to join Raiding guilds/teams from within the game and having to do google searches for it. Imagine if this was done from inside the game, from a Guild Browser for example. That's the real barrier for Raids, and keep pugging as a way to fill static teams when they are missing people.

  • Skyronight.6370Skyronight.6370 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

    If there are no KP the we'd have AP requirements or pinging of legendary armor itself before you can join a Raid team. The real barrier is not being able to join Raiding guilds/teams from within the game and having to do google searches for it. Imagine if this was done from inside the game, from a Guild Browser for example. That's the real barrier for Raids, and keep pugging as a way to fill static teams when they are missing people.

    what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

    Take a look at this post:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1042364/#Comment_1042364

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

    Take a look at this post:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1042364/#Comment_1042364

    I was talking about experienced groups not training, is there an lfg for that?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

    And the KP requirement comes from difficulty. If raids were easier, you would see requirements far less than before. Some players would still require some (because there are players that always do so), but there would be many groups without them (or with requirements that are easier to fulfill).

    Notice, that the requirements are just some way of players in a group saying "we want only players that are skilled enough that we won't wipe". Make the content harder, and the reason behind them saying so will get only stronger, not weaker.

    If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out.

    And then you wipe, kick that player out, get new one, and you still don't know whether the new one is any better? Most people would rather make sure in any way possible that the group is good enough the first time they attempt the boss.

    Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

    KP is the closest way the group has to do that "IQ or skill check". It's way from perfect, but it's still the best tool available short of attempting the kill (and risking a wipe, which noone wants).

    In the example you brough up? I am pretty sure the group would not have wanted to check that green runner in an actual fight, and have hoped for someone that would do their job without dying. For many pugs it's not "it took us only 3 tries to kill". It's "man, we wiped TWO TIMES on it".

    As someone mentioned, after you will have a ton of succesful full clears behind you, you will understand what people are saying.

    TL/DR;
    No, making things harder will cause the exactly opposite reaction to what you want to achieve.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

    Take a look at this post:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1042364/#Comment_1042364

    I was talking about experienced groups not training, is there an lfg for that?

    No, either your are looking into the forums - there are lots of guild offers for raiding among all the others - or you try map chat in Lions Arch or you try to find experienced groups via those training discords. There are several progressive channels I think. All those have the hidden agenda to form/represent a static group in which you get through a full clear or at least most of the wings on a single evening. Raids were advertised as "organized challenging group content" and therefore it's far advantageous to have at least a tiny permanent staff with members being able to play different roles. In the end it's also faster to just look for 1-3 people in the raid lfg - mostly filling easy roles - than to open an own squad alone and search 9 players for a full clear. Both is working but the latter is much more time consuming.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Skyronight.6370 said:
    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    In this group that you refer to as "new players", what percentage of them are "talented"?

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    It is good that you are doing so well this early, but the pug group you want to join does not know that. They do not know you. That is why they ask that you provide them with proof that you have beaten Dhuum many times, since once or twice could have been you getting lucky. Of course the system is not perfect, one could even argue that it is not even good, but it has established itself as the standard, so there is a decent chance that it is the best option available.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    what type of search to join groups outside of the ingame lfg? Is there a 3rd party raid lfg im not aware of?

    Take a look at this post:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1042364/#Comment_1042364

    I was talking about experienced groups not training, is there an lfg for that?

    You join a guild for that, and my suggestion about the guild browser would make joining a guild for raids easier.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    well i think it's good that people are specific in LFG and state what constitutes as enough X tokens for them
    cuz some people are afraid of asking or w/e and the requirement lists in lfg usually aren't super high or anything

    and agreed yeah of course it's arbitrary, and it can be super slow to get raid for the in-between stage of "knows mechanics, has gotten a few kills, maybe not enough kp" if you dont fake it

    but yeah i think it's good a system where there is kp requirement exists and also a way to circumvent around it (codes)

    mai trin farm 2k19, the place to be--- sparky skell alex radomir ghastly lisa frank qante mercy bacon cat aj nay ++ and yours truly, me :')

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

    title dosent mean anything its only 1 kill, its even worse than asking for kp, any pve player can buy ViTv from raid selling guild.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    If its not KP its something Else, like voice in the void title.

    title dosent mean anything its only 1 kill, its even worse than asking for kp, any pve player can buy ViTv from raid selling guild.

    Sure they can. But title is already used alot as KP. It cost around1000 gold to buy all w5 achievements (2 CM kills and some other stuff) that you need for title. If its not enough you can always ask title and Legendary armor, or multiple titles🤷
    Also buying a title is alot harder than copy paste a fake KP that players are already doing.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    I does not care me if raids are flourishing or dying.

    I don't like to play them as long as:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time,

    is the dominating attitude in raids.

    I hate these leavers on fail and these avoid failure parties. This most reward per time attitude.

    The only good thing of raids is that they help to keep them away from the rest of the game.

    Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

    If you life your achiever-mentality in work, and relax in gaming, that's not only more rewarding, but also healthier, for you and your neighborhood ;)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

    You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

    Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

    When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

    I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

    If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

    Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

    Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

    You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

    Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

    When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

    I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

    If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

    Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

    Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

    Many unjustified assumptions in your text. Just to address two:

    • I can hardly leach in raids by not participating in them.
    • I try (with some success) to explain fractal mechanics when they seem to be unknown, i.e. I life it :)
  • SLOTH.5231SLOTH.5231 Member ✭✭✭

    What exactly is the benefit in raiding in this game?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dayra.7405 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Yes, it's nice if things run smooth and fast, but seeing people to learn from failures and improve is even nicer ;)

    You are free to enjoy the game however you want.

    Do realize though that for some players, killing a raid boss for the 100th (yes, most veteran raiders gave over 100 kills on many raid bosses, that's kills not attempts) time is more a "get it done as smooth and fast as possible" challenge.

    When those players want to help out, as many do, they join or run training runs of varying degrees.

    I'm sorry that warching unqiue snowflake new raider 10,785 fail basic mechanic 344 for the 6th time is not interesting to most veterans. We've seen it often enough thank you. That's exaxtly why you have veterans help out in trainings, to be able to address issues and problems at the right moment and the right time.

    If you just want to leech the kills, pay one of the raid selling guilds.

    Or better yet, improve far enough to be able to carry and support others, then devote your time to training them as you are suggesting. Live by what you preach.

    Unfotunately, from my personal experience, the players who most often want others to be patient with them or want others to help them, are often the last to help out once they've advanced far enough. I'm sure there could be some links made with selfishness and so on, but I won't go that far here.

    Many unjustified assumptions in your text. Just to address two:

    • I can hardly leach in raids by not participating in them.
    • I try (with some success) to explain fractal mechanics when they seem to be unknown, i.e. I life it :)

    True, I assumed you'd be fine with my assumptions given the post you made, which I responded to, was filled with them about the raiding community.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    What exactly is the benefit in raiding in this game?

    Raid Community insisted successfully that raids are the only source of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Perfected_Envoy_armor

    Alternative Legendary Armor without extra skins are obtainable from PvP and WvW reward tracks.

  • @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance. If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out. Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid.

    Elitism ppl without any clue who keep joining raids and trying to leech, kitten up the raid and wasting everyone else's time. We once had a guy in the group for Matthias who didn't know kitten.. We even tried to explain him what he has to do 2 times really slowly and he even said he understands that but then he kitten up again.. like.. uncarryable hard.
    It's just a waste of time and the biggest problem is, that in a group of 10, if say everybody's a random you'll have some who just don't have the time for this.. if you fail 2 times because of a pug doesn't know the mechanics and your group would need to teach him then they just leave because, well, they got other things to do as well. And then you have to search for another guy who replaces the dude who just left which also takes time and so on.. It's just a waiting game at this point.

    2 things I want to mention in this context which might help to work around the problem for you:
    1) KP requirements pretty much only exist in public groups because of said problems. Join a raiding guild or watch out for a couple guys you can raid with and form or join a raid group. I myself can only really raid because of 2 friends who take me with them because I also only have ~25 LI or so.
    2) Not every lfg-group does have an entry requirement, just wait for those popping up or join some training raids, nobody asks for KP/LI there, but then again you're likely to fail the raid since they most of the time don't really know the mechanics.. also it's a lot more time intensive since the raid leaders explain everything first (most of the time)

    Also.. just because you and a lot of other ppl think they aren't hard... GW2 is for casuals (I think they are easy too btw but we aren't the target audience tbh) so there is a kitten of ppl out there who already struggle with the current difficulty.. Unfortunately Anet targets those apparently and everything gets dumbed down..

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    I wish I lived on the same planet as you.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • If someone wants to start they can. Just join training discord. Sad thing is that most players are too lazy to even open google and search for one

  • I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

    Because players want consistent and smooth runs in the groups that they create. If you did raids, you’d understand where this is coming from. There are some mechanics where a single player can cause the raid to fail.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

    Because players want consistent and smooth runs in the groups that they create. If you did raids, you’d understand where this is coming from. There are some mechanics where a single player can cause the raid to fail.

    So it is in WoW. I killed few bosses in GW2, and for most part is targrt dummy simulator with some short fazes of activity.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naustis.8510 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    I understand people who wants KP, but I don't understand why GW2 community is so much into 'you have to complete X content 50 times to know what to do'. WoW raids and m+ dungeons are far harder, and if you killed a boss 5 times you know perfectly what to do... There is no need to kill it 50 times.

    Because players want consistent and smooth runs in the groups that they create. If you did raids, you’d understand where this is coming from. There are some mechanics where a single player can cause the raid to fail.

    So it is in WoW. I killed few bosses in GW2, and for most part is targrt dummy simulator with some short fazes of activity.

    It’s not as dumbed down as you make it for those that are not experienced enough at the bosses. This is evident if you ever pug them or try to bring in pugs to your statics.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    Your initial assessment is correct, that kp is killing raiding's community or even ability to build community but your solution isn't.

    First, mechanic density was too high on the raid i did. Even wow lets you finish a raid with a bad player or two, it's too easy for one player to wipe a group and it doesn't feel like recovery from mistakes is possible. Not only that, mechanics also don't always pop out at you.

    Second, gear is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. The best gear is ascended gear because of selectable stats (most support and healing builds need conc, a rare stat) getting ascended gear is a process that is unnatural to raiding: it's tedious chores farming for months on any sort of decent schedule. You'll hate the game if that's all you did. Fractals don't drop selectable stat gear frequently enough to be a sane and natural way to transition to raiding.

    Third, roles aren't obvious and there's too many of them. There's nothing that actually tells you "hey you need 100% boon uptime to be useful, this is how you achieve it).

    The remedies below i suggest for normal mode only.

    The best remedy for mechanics would be fewer mechanics in harder raids (apparently my guild loves practicing on one of the worst ones) but make them more punishing for messing up, also allow the raid to still complete with 1-2 players dying. On this note, anet could make fulfilling a mechanic more fun. In WoW some mechanics actually feel good to do right, in salvation pass they feel like random kitten thrown at you.

    For gearing & roles, normal mode raids become like spvp: you can just log into a character and do any build you choose. The ui also has a role guide. This allows players to fill any role they have a character for. This allows the community to have a much larger pool of capable characters to choose from, as opposed to maybe 1 character per player, though i would argue most players don't even research very well before trying roles and fail miserably (based on underperforming members in groups i've done)

    And for the love of all that is holy bring mesmer concentration requirements and rotation complexity for boon support more in line with alacrigade. This is for all levels. I just think it's ridiculous alacrigade only have to press 1 button with less concentration to maintain a boon for 10 players whereas the mesmer has to do so many things to just maintain 2 for 5 players (so functionally if you count boons per player, the roles are equal, but one is definitely way easier and has a lower gear requirement).

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    Huh.... Guess this is why we don't have nice things.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    Your initial assessment is correct, that kp is killing raiding's community or even ability to build community but your solution isn't.

    First, mechanic density was too high on the raid i did. Even wow lets you finish a raid with a bad player or two, it's too easy for one player to wipe a group and it doesn't feel like recovery from mistakes is possible. Not only that, mechanics also don't always pop out at you.

    Second, gear is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. The best gear is ascended gear because of selectable stats (most support and healing builds need conc, a rare stat) getting ascended gear is a process that is unnatural to raiding: it's tedious chores farming for months on any sort of decent schedule. You'll hate the game if that's all you did. Fractals don't drop selectable stat gear frequently enough to be a sane and natural way to transition to raiding.

    Third, roles aren't obvious and there's too many of them. There's nothing that actually tells you "hey you need 100% boon uptime to be useful, this is how you achieve it).

    The remedies below i suggest for normal mode only.

    The best remedy for mechanics would be fewer mechanics in harder raids (apparently my guild loves practicing on one of the worst ones) but make them more punishing for messing up, also allow the raid to still complete with 1-2 players dying. On this note, anet could make fulfilling a mechanic more fun. In WoW some mechanics actually feel good to do right, in salvation pass they feel like random kitten thrown at you.

    For gearing & roles, normal mode raids become like spvp: you can just log into a character and do any build you choose. The ui also has a role guide. This allows players to fill any role they have a character for. This allows the community to have a much larger pool of capable characters to choose from, as opposed to maybe 1 character per player, though i would argue most players don't even research very well before trying roles and fail miserably (based on underperforming members in groups i've done)

    And for the love of all that is holy bring mesmer concentration requirements and rotation complexity for boon support more in line with alacrigade. This is for all levels. I just think it's ridiculous alacrigade only have to press 1 button with less concentration to maintain a boon for 10 players whereas the mesmer has to do so many things to just maintain 2 for 5 players (so functionally if you count boons per player, the roles are equal, but one is definitely way easier and has a lower gear requirement).

    Gearing in gw2 is 10 times easier than gearing in WoW, no offense but if it takes you months to get diviner stats you are doing something horribly wrong, You can get a full set of selectable stats in 1 week of pvp. The issue as I said is the fact that raids are too easy not too hard but the KP requirement for them dosent match the difficulty. Unless the player has severe brain damage they should be able to complete any raid/ any boss after 3 succeful kills but gw2 community asks foir 50 KP.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    Gearing in gw2 is 10 times easier than gearing in WoW, no offense but if it takes you months to get diviner stats you are doing something horribly wrong, You can get a full set of selectable stats in 1 week of pvp. The issue as I said is the fact that raids are too easy not too hard but the KP requirement for them dosent match the difficulty. Unless the player has severe brain damage they should be able to complete any raid/ any boss after 3 succeful kills but gw2 community asks foir 50 KP.

    Why would a pve player want to pvp for gear so they can pve? You're just proving my point about tedium outside raiding.

    But let's assume i don't care and evaluate your other claim, that it takes a week.

    It's 2110 pips for just the armor, assuming we start on a fresh season. we're not talking weapons or trinkets yet, so this is less than half the set. Dividing by 7.5, assuming a 50% win rate, yields 282 matches. Most games take 10 minutes. Let's just say 7. That's 32 hours, not including queue times, which could easily put you close to 40. I actually like enjoying the game and that's way too much pvp in a week, let alone in game. You need 14-15 total gear pieces depending on spec. This is less than half the set and if you actually keep going in the same season, the ascended shards per pip goes so it's even longer getting the other pieces. And this is an optimistic estimate, i didn't do prematch wait times and normally i think my matches run me around 10 minutes.

    Now let's talk WoW. You can do 1 mythic+ a week and get something ilvl appropriate for only 30 mins to an 1 hours worth of time, you may even be someone who gets the drops from the dungeon itself, giving you even more gear per time spent. For every tier there's a world boss who drops normal ilvl gear once per week, now we're at 2-3 pieces for still around 35-65 mins of play. It is harder and does take longer in Gw2. Not to mention as you've pointed out yourself, it has nothing to do with the content you actually want to do. At least in a M+ dungeon i get practice with a lot of different types of mechanics.

    Edit how is a game that's supposed to be designed for filthy casuals get so many elitists who like to troll noobs with bs? You're not the first person here to grossly understate gearing.

    Edit 2: numbers were off on set, adjusted them

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others. You can obtain 25G an hours from some of the farms such as Dragonfall. You also technically don't need ascended armor to raid as the ~2% DPS increase won't have much bearing.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

    There's no time-gating if you purchase the materials.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

    There's no time-gating if you purchase the materials.

    You're assuming i have the gold for that.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

    There's no time-gating if you purchase the materials.

    You're assuming i have the gold for that.

    That's why you farm it...

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

    There's no time-gating if you purchase the materials.

    You're assuming i have the gold for that.

    That's why you farm it...

    And that's why i'm not wrong in pointing out all the tedium and time investment in getting into raids in the first place. If OP and Anet really want more player participation, they need to lower the barrier to entry which is why i came up with a suggestion that was more about player skill than farming.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except you don't need stat selectable armor as you can just craft what you want. Ascended trinkets are fairly painless to obtain from the Living World maps. Back pieces are pretty much thrown at you with every episode. Weapons are painless through Caladbog and the elite specialization collections although you can craft them too.

    Define "painless" jade shard runs on a single char tend to take 20-30 mins even with optimal route, usually because of adds. And it's alot of route farming you have to do for a single item.

    And if you craft the armor, you have to farm the mats and/or gold for it. I'm consistently farming branded masses and think it took me like at least a month for the 400 i have now? And the items are time gated when crafting. Crafting the mats for the sword is at least 9 days.

    Winterberries but of course immediately go for one of the more annoying ones while ignoring the others.

    Winterberries are only preferable because they infini respawn. Pretty sure i was jumped when i would gather them during season 3 too. Didn't actually farm them for ascended then. I doubt the route is that much easier, i could try it, but it's maybe 2 pieces of gear of the 14-15? I'm almost done with trinkets now. Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

    There's no time-gating if you purchase the materials.

    You're assuming i have the gold for that.

    That's why you farm it...

    And that's why i'm not wrong in pointing out all the tedium and time investment in getting into raids in the first place. If OP and Anet really want more player participation, they need to lower the barrier to entry which is why i came up with a suggestion that was more about player skill than farming.

    And yet you ignore the same thing when it comes to WoW raids. There's grind in WoW for the gear yet you criticize GW2 for it. There are time-gates in WoW and yet you criticize GW2 for it. And FYI, people fail more often because of messing up mechanics than because of DPS.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Now let's talk WoW. You can do 1 mythic+ a week and get something ilvl appropriate for only 30 mins to an 1 hours worth of time,

    .

    For every tier there's a world boss who drops normal ilvl gear once per week, now we're at 2-3 pieces for still around 35-65 mins of play.

    And about GW2 timegates

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Of course you ignore time gating on crafting the other pieces.

  • Did you even read my response about wow gear? I already addressed that. How about you talk to the ops points about getting more participation which is an issue both Anet and Op have.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Did you even read my response about wow gear? I already addressed that. How about you talk to the ops points about getting more participation which is an issue both Anet and Op have.

    I did. You also don't need ascended armor as it only provides a ~2% DPS increase.

  • Chrono needs 100% Bd for complete up time on boons, self sustaining anyway. The core roles require non trivial amounts of conc which is rare on exotics. Heck if anet flooded the economy with selectable stat exotics it would work almost as well as my suggestion except there would still be less flexibility.

    Also 2% is an understatement.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Chrono needs 100% Bd for complete up time on boons, self sustaining anyway. The core roles require non trivial amounts of conc which is rare on exotics. Heck if anet flooded the economy with selectable stat exotics it would work almost as well as my suggestion except there would still be less flexibility.

    The meta chrono build only use 3 pieces of ascended diviners gear. Trying to find one exception doesn't negate what I said.

    Also 2% is an understatement.

    It's not.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    The fun part is he still takes getting one of the hardest stats in the game as granted for an entry barrier for raids. Dude, wake the f... up! You usually don't start raiding as support chrono, tank or others from the most important roles.
    I've said before that it is much easier to start with an easy dps or a pure heal class. In both cases you can start with easily obtainable stats namely zerker & magi's. And both are just needed in exotics.
    The reason for that: If you start raiding with a guild/community they put you on safe/easy-to-play positions first because they know you aren't an expert yet. Nobody on earth would take it as a given that you can handle the harder or more important support roles or playing special mechanics in your first raid attempts. Not even in a pug a sane person would ask you for that.
    Another thing is a new player usually doesn't start raiding after hitting level 80. The overwhelming majority of the player base is doing completely different things. Raids are the most challenging endgame content not endgame content where you step in after getting in first touch with the game which in this case is being level 80. Of course, if you just come to GW2 for raiding - which is not recommended because the focus in this game is - who would have thought that? - not raiding you'll have a "not-so-easy" time to gear up a char perfectly from the get go but as I mentioned before: This is also not needed to start raiding!
    Let's face it the usual raider in this game is a veteran who most likely spend years before in this game and therefore has access to a lot of sources of armor & weapon pieces, several chars ready for a quick winterberry farm (for example), gold and/or mats + 100% map exploration with at least 1 char, mounts for fast travelling and most likely portal tomes for the LS maps.
    Last but not least because people always tend to forget it: Anet never wanted raids to be puggable content in the first place. They were advertised for "organized groups" which means guilds, friends and other pre-assembled groups. In such it is easier to start and with the progress you make the acquisition of gear is negligible.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019

    Been playing at 80 for a while

    Sure it's totally healthy for the game to be entirely reliant veterans who might be tired of teaching newbies

    Not 2%, it's 5 and equates to way more than that when you factor in stat synergies

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30517/ascended-vs-exotic-not-5

    Heaven forbid someone want to play a class that's their main, guess i just suck for picking that, right? Or wanting to learn something? This community os way more toxic than i thought..

    Also hate to break it to you, anything is puggable in any game once you know your class well enough and have a properly prepared group who understands mechanics + a form of voice comms. And i've actually never pugged. I've always been in guild. We've filled sure but it wasn't a complete pug. And why did we fill? Not enough vets wanted to do it. There's plenty of geared people in my guild.

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