KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now) - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

KP system is why raids are dead ( I use fake LI/KP now)

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  • just leave time and is done pp will do raids whit 4 heals and learn what to do but the permadead and mecs will be the same but and elitist run can do whit full dps set

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    What exactly is the benefit in raiding in this game?

    Gold and higher chance for ascended weapons that come with special skins and if you save up a free mesmer portal device

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Skyronight.6370 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Making raids harder would just make the KP requirements worse. If mistakes are punished more, then raid group formers will be even more paranoid of failure and wasting their time, so they'll jack the requirements up even more. Making raids more difficult won't garner more interest in raids, it'll discourage players from even trying. This isn't how incentives work. You don't fix the problem by making all the reasons the problem exists even worse.

    But the elitism comes from that KP requirement because newer players are not even given a chance.

    And the KP requirement comes from difficulty. If raids were easier, you would see requirements far less than before. Some players would still require some (because there are players that always do so), but there would be many groups without them (or with requirements that are easier to fulfill).

    Notice, that the requirements are just some way of players in a group saying "we want only players that are skilled enough that we won't wipe". Make the content harder, and the reason behind them saying so will get only stronger, not weaker.

    If raids were made harder, everyone would be given a chance and then once they fail mechanics and start dying they can simply get kicked out.

    And then you wipe, kick that player out, get new one, and you still don't know whether the new one is any better? Most people would rather make sure in any way possible that the group is good enough the first time they attempt the boss.

    Its harder to get into the raids than completing the raid. It took me so long to find my first dhuum group and we ended up killing it in 3 tries ( 2 fails because of green that has died). Getting into raids shouldnt be harder than the actual raid itself, its why they need to increase difficulty and get rid of KP system. Instead KP there needs to be an IQ or skill check with harder boss mechanics.

    KP is the closest way the group has to do that "IQ or skill check". It's way from perfect, but it's still the best tool available short of attempting the kill (and risking a wipe, which noone wants).

    In the example you brough up? I am pretty sure the group would not have wanted to check that green runner in an actual fight, and have hoped for someone that would do their job without dying. For many pugs it's not "it took us only 3 tries to kill". It's "man, we wiped TWO TIMES on it".

    As someone mentioned, after you will have a ton of succesful full clears behind you, you will understand what people are saying.

    TL/DR;
    No, making things harder will cause the exactly opposite reaction to what you want to achieve.

    Kp comes from the need to finish the content quickly, dungeons were far easier yet they still had the stupid lfg.

    On op's suggestion, nah make nm easier and cm harder.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skyronight.6370 said:
    The reason why raids have a small population and everyone complaining that they are too hard it is because of the flawed KP system and not their difficulty , as someone that can do any role and never/rarely goes down in raids and also get top DPS when I play DPS most of the time, after seeing all the 50 + KP requirements for bosses I started using fake KP /Li because I dont wanna brag but my skill level is higher than the vast majority of people and not getting into groups because I started raiding late is definitely not the way it should be. Now its much easier to find groups and I dont have to worry about getting bad luck with boss tokens and only getting 1 per kill.

    This is why raids are dying out because older players leave the game and the new players that come in cannot do raids because they dont have the KP requirements. It has nothing to do with raid difficulty, making the raids as easy as open world content actually still wont fix the KP issue. Because the less skilled players will still want a decent amount of KP from the new players because they would not want to wipe in the raid even if its easy mode.

    So how do we fix this problem? Easy solution, make raids HARDER, yes you heard me, making the raids harder and getting rid of KP system ( deleting boss tokens) will actually fix this issue because to complete a raid you will need skilled players instead of just experienced ones that have been raiding since day 1.

    Raids will see a much higher interest because now the new players that are talented but never raided before will actually be desired in groups once the mechanics get harder and you will actually need fast reaction time and knowledge of your class to not die in raids.

    The real problem is literally the fact that raids are too easy but the KP requirements for them is way too high. After killing dhuum 4 times I was able to do kiter/tank role better than people with 100 dhuum tokens, so why I shouldnt be able to get into a group when the content is faceroll but they ask me to kill the boss 50 times.

    Its funny to see all these people here crying that raids are locked behind a " barrier" and adding easy mode will fix this issue, it wont fix the problem, if anything it will be worse because this is when all the people with terrible builds and low skill level will start infesting the raids and you wont even be able to complete the easy mode.

    We need more good players in raids not more bad players, adding easy mode will make the problem worse. Get rid of the real barrier that is the KP system and increase raid difficulty. This is going to be the best change that raids have seen.

    I highly disagree that kp and li kills raiding. If you truly know raiders, The true reason what is killing the raiding community is because

    1. Raid releases are slow. 7-9 months for 3 bosses is truly pushing the limit of players waiting. Specially since w7 mostly everyone got the title within the first couple of days without a guide.

    2. The hardest wing will stay as w5 and nothing will be harder in game than dhuum cm.

    3. The last wing was far too easy.

    Raids in itself are much alive. There is RNT guild that has thousands of Players to train. Lfg varies because not a lot of people like lfg in the first place. For example players joining in with fake kp and li and not doing the fight.

    1 main reason why people don’t like lfg. people who fake kp and li are literally sabotaging the group since it’s exp.

    The other reason of people not lfging is because a lot of people in gw2 have anxiety so they wish to only raid with guild rather then have random people within the raid.

    The last reason of people not lfging is because lfg vs raiding with your guild or static, it’s 1 -2 pulls per boss vs trying to collide people who have just joined together. Which makes mistakes more easily to happen within a raid. For example in a raid guild in sloth you have 2 firebrands you provide stability for sloth. Well in a pug run you make the Druid and some chrono provide stability for fear. Druid hits stab, chrono mis Times their signet so 5 people still get feared. Vs your 1 pull with your guild not worrying about fear.

    So it’s not that kp and li are the reason lfg isn’t as active. There are many reasons why they aren’t.

    I don’t think arenanet needs to add or remove kp. Arenanet just needs to make challenge motes repeatable. Make Raid bosses or raid wing dailies. And most likely raid scene will be much alive.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭

    High KP groups (100+ kp) expects so much more than just skills.

    A experienced player need to know hidden mechanics which new raiders perceive as random but in practice can be controlled.
    They need to know where the group is going to be before the group goes there. No follow tag.
    They need to know what roles and builds is effective for every boss, and have enough characters geared so they can swap between bosses.
    They need to know what mechanics can be skipped through dps, and know how to handle the mechanic if the dps check fails.
    They need to know how to do other roles mechanics when someone responsible for it dies unexpected.

    On top of that they need to know their own role without having things called out, handle mechanics, not die and do rotation. If you can check all those boxes then go ahead and fake KP, but experience tell me that will happen in reality is that you will mess up and the leader of the group will block you, name you something like "KP faker", and then instant kick you if they ever see you join their squad again. Skill is not a substitute for experience.

  • @SLOTH.5231 said:
    What exactly is the benefit in raiding in this game?

    the unique legendary armor set. you know, the only one that actually looks legendary.

    Not only got raids the only good set, they also get it much easier than the pvp and wvw people.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Not only got raids the only good set, they also get it much easier than the pvp and wvw people.

    At least it requires you to actually do the content. You can practically AFK your way through participation and matches for the other 2 sets.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    Just make your own LFG and ask for whatever floats your boat. You can make it a training run and accept complete noobs, or you can ask for something as simple as 1 KP if you want people that have killed the boss but are still new. Truth is, getting a raid group together is really easy, stop blaming anet and just use the tools already available. If some group wants 50 KP then that is their business and there is nothing wrong with that.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Just make your own group if you think so, OP.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meatime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

    But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experiance which is focused on progression. And very organized group content. And playing as a team. Not with pugs.
    That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
    You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

  • In all Honesty.
    I would like to play the raid content myself.
    But i have no guild, and currently i dont need one because my online times are inconsistent because of work and real life.

    The only Raids i participated in were mostly the escort ones on saturdays as a repeated event from my server community to introduce new players to raiding (played that escort mission like 100+ times now).
    I would love to actually play all the other raid wings and paths and bosses, but i simply cant do that because of this ridicolous KP requirement that randoms demand when they look for players on LFG.

    I get that people dont want to fail raids, but if you dont even let new players in to actually experience the raids and get better there will be no improvement whatsoever.

    To make it short:
    I would like to play raid content but cant do that because i cannot play raid content, because of not being able to participate in raid content.
    (yes, its that bonkers)

    TLDR:
    Just give players without 150 boss kills a chance, everyone started somewhere but currently new players cant do that because they started the raid content too late and dont have the KP to play raids.

  • @Cekay.2614 said:
    In all Honesty.
    I would like to play the raid content myself.
    But i have no guild, and currently i dont need one because my online times are inconsistent because of work and real life.

    The only Raids i participated in were mostly the escort ones on saturdays as a repeated event from my server community to introduce new players to raiding (played that escort mission like 100+ times now).
    I would love to actually play all the other raid wings and paths and bosses, but i simply cant do that because of this ridicolous KP requirement that randoms demand when they look for players on LFG.

    I get that people dont want to fail raids, but if you dont even let new players in to actually experience the raids and get better there will be no improvement whatsoever.

    To make it short:
    I would like to play raid content but cant do that because i cannot play raid content, because of not being able to participate in raid content.
    (yes, its that bonkers)

    TLDR:
    Just give players without 150 boss kills a chance, everyone started somewhere but currently new players cant do that because they started the raid content too late and dont have the KP to play raids.

    My adivice is to join crossroads discord. I know you dont have time but their lfg is active and full of newer players

  • how can someone collect kp if he is excluded from content where kp is gathered?

    And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'not today'.

  • I encountered issues as well. But I think that a simple change in LFG would help a LOT. If Anet is willing.

    Currently there are only 2 entries... Looking for more and Looking for Group.

    Raiders come in variable level of skill and commitment. I don't even use LFG myself because as a limited player that would never fake things I didn't do, I simply stand no chance. And wasting hours and hours staring at a LFG for a training group to come up just isn't my idea of a fun time.

    I raid with a Guild, and am happy with the situation... keep reading because this is not a "darn you, Elitist" post.

    I think the LFG desperately needs more subsections under Raid. Just like you see in fractals with scales, but with Raids it might work better with "Training" "Beginner" "Advanced" "Expert" etc
    Someone that looks for experienced raiders would never post in Training etc... if that could be implemented, combined with a leveling mechanic, it would make it a lot easier for everyone.

    This way an Advanced Raider doesn't have to worry about fakers, and a newcommer to raids has a way to find training groups more easely.

    It would also filter out what can (sometimes rightfully, and sometimes wrongfully) be marked as Elitism.
    Someone like me with my limitations and skill level simply would not level to the higher groups, therefor not encounter Elitism (as much)

    Just my 2 cents.

    And yes, I have done, and finished Raids...
    When the right group takes you along, and you are open and fair about your abilities and limitations, it's suprising how far you can get.
    I stated I am limited, simply put, I have reduced functionality in both my hands which makes playing sertan classes or mechanics on a class hard for me.
    I Raid on a Reaper set up to avoid any AoE dropping.

    I am perfectly fine with some groups would not want me with them.
    I just think that anyone should have an opportunity to try and maybe enjoy Raids, but getting started on them IS an issue for a lot of players.

    And to be perfectly fair, most say "I am sorry, but..." couldn't ask for more.

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know how to spell it out any more clearly. People talking about they can't get into raids because they don't have KP!? I had 0 KP. The Discord training runs never matched my schedule. What could I possibly do!?

    I used the kitten LFG tool! It doesn't need more categories because you can customize your LFG post to search for exactly what you need! I simply researched the raid wing I was interested in using the wiki and YouTube, then post a message in LFG stating that I am doing a Wing 1 Training Run, and shortly after had a full raid group.

    I gave out my discord info, we had a ton of fun, we cleared the entire wing, and we all stay connected on the discord for future runs. I have since then continued doing these random raid training runs whenever I have time to, and our little discord community just keeps growing.

    So if you really want to raid, then get out there and raid and stop trying to find excuses on why it is impossible.

    Doc Von Doom

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    The LFG doesn’t need more categories to bloat it further.

    Just create a raid LFG that’s says something like players of all skill levels and experience welcome. If you get 9 other players that join who have never stepped into raids, or even have a proper build, you’ll soon understand why veteran raiders have the requirements that they do.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @SlateSloan.3654 said:
    how can someone collect kp if he is excluded from content where kp is gathered?

    Read what Shaogin.2679 wrote two posts below you. Apply his approach to your situation (ideally reading the part about training discords being available).

    Stop trying to join groups that demand KP.

    Do you have experience killing the boss? If not, you are not the target audience and player that a group with KP requirement is looking for. Don't expect others to carry you only so you can get an easy ride.

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