Rite of the Great Dwarf: It's time to put it in line with the other skills — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rite of the Great Dwarf: It's time to put it in line with the other skills

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 31, 2020 in Revenant

It's a stunbreak consuming 40 energy with a 1¼ cast time. Back in the days where things we're more slow and aggravating with big meaningful procedures, it made sense. Now? It doesn't hold up as great, very pro active skills are required and it ruins the flow or pace of playing with Jalis, it does not deserve to have such ultra high risk for medium reward. The gameplay is much more fast paced than before and the cast time is an insult to the legend in the terms of today standards.

Suggestions:
1. Make the cast time ¾ or even ½ second if generous enough.
2. Make energy cost 30.
3. Versed in Stone Condition Damage Reduction is baseline to the skill while the new trait provides stability on stunbreak with it's passive RotGD removed.
4. Versed in Stone Condition Damage Reduction is baseline to the skill while the new trait provides stability on elite skill with it's passive RotGD removed.
5. Add one stack of stability baseline to RotGD.

I am not saying all of these should be added together, maybe 1+2 or 2+3 but those are generally ways the skill could go to be more relevant because as of right now, there is almost no incentive to use it without the proper synergy of SotM + Spirit Boon, nor being Versed in Stone particularly useful unless you build around it which is ineffective overall compared Steadfast Rejuvenate that can mitigate as much depending on the pressure and is overall more useful to all legends rather than just one skill, 3 seconds of Stability on stunbreak would benefit all legends and give people a good opt that makes energy less prone to be wasted by CC chains.

Even Renegade makes better use of Jalis skills than the traitline (Retribution) does to Jalis itself. Something has to be done. Inspiring Reinforcement is 99% of the time a better skill to use compared it for the minor trait, weakness and stability compared a long vulnerable long cast of a skill that is likely to be too late mitigating damage.

In my opinion after playing it so long should be a second no more no less. It's already easy to interrupt with it's big tell, the cost is high and the effect is strong but being twice the time to the comparable Pain Absorption which is similar but for conditions begs for uniformity and some degree of difficulty.

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Comments

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    I'm pretty sure there has never in this game been another stunbreak that was ever even close to 1.25 sec cast time unless the cast was protected by a block or evade. This is pretty much the only reason jalis isn't worth using in pvp as it is too susceptible to cc and focus fire. At least cut the cast in half while also giving aegis at the start of the cast, or just make the cast a channeled block like shelter, it is already expensive enough it can't be spammed.

    Could also make it knock-back enemies too close, and reflect projectiles as well. Or make it so you heal for each ability your hit with while you cast, kind of like a second wind sort of thing.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    I'm pretty sure there has never in this game been another stunbreak that was ever even close to 1.25 sec cast time unless the cast was protected by a block or evade. This is pretty much the only reason jalis isn't worth using in pvp as it is too susceptible to cc and focus fire. At least cut the cast in half while also giving aegis at the start of the cast, or just make the cast a channeled block like shelter, it is already expensive enough it can't be spammed.

    Could also make it knock-back enemies too close, and reflect projectiles as well. Or make it so you heal for each ability your hit with while you cast, kind of like a second wind sort of thing.

    Already possible with Renegade to knock people, hence the "better" synergy that I claim. Also Righteous Rebel pairs better with Steadfast Rejuvenate and Vengeful Hammers.

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Back in the days.. it was awful. Nothing changed

    WvW zergs would sometimes use it to push big chokes, that's the best I know of.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    how dare you not ask for power creep?
    should be a 30 energy stunbreak 1 sec block -condi damage baseline aoe stab aoe taunt!
    nah seriously tho this elite does need some love.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    yeaI I remember XD
    who in the univererse was the reason for this ....

  • @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    Renegade stunbreak is on the daze summon not on the heal skill

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's a stunbreak consuming 40 energy with a 1¼ cast time. Back in the days where things we're more slow and aggravating with big meaningful procedures, it made sense. Now? It doesn't hold up as great, very pro active skills are required and it ruins the flow or pace of playing with Jalis, it does not deserve to have such ultra high risk for medium reward. The gameplay is much more fast paced than before and the cast time is an insult to the legend in the terms of today standards.

    Suggestions:
    1. Make the cast time ½ second.
    2. Make energy cost 30.
    3. Versed in Stone Condition Damage Reduction is baseline to the skill while the new trait provides stability on stunbreak with it's passive RotGD removed.

    I am not saying all of these should be added together, maybe 1+2 or 2+3 but those are generally ways the skill could go to be more relevant because as of right now, there is almost no incentive to use it, nor being Versed in Stone particularly useful unless you build around it which is ineffective overall compared Steadfast Rejuvenate that can mitigate as much depending on the pressure and is overall more useful to all legends rather than just one skill, 3 seconds of Stability on stunbreak would benefit all legends and give people a good opt that makes energy less prone to be wasted by CC chains.

    Even Renegade makes better use of Jalis skills than the traitline (Retribution) does to Jalis itself. Something has to be done. Inspiring Reinforcement is 99% of the time a better skill to use compared it for the minor trait, weakness and stability compared a long vulnerable long cast of a skill that is likely to be too late mitigating damage.

    Yea there’s nearly no situation where you would use RotGD in pvp especially since they added a shorter version of it to Ancient Echo. I’d really like lowering the cost and cast time of it.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doto.6357 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    Renegade stunbreak is on the daze summon not on the heal skill

    It is now, but that wasn't always the case.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A fix:

    Make RotG interrupt or stun or daze nearby enemies.

    Or, make it give Barrier or Stability.
    RotG is an awesome skill with a huge telegraph. Let it be powerful while keeping it’s sweet animation.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doto.6357 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    Renegade stunbreak is on the daze summon not on the heal skill

    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever... My point stands.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like the Defense Support nature of it when traited, but besides that it cost too much and duration too short for its cost, and its trait requirement. Would like if it had an additional effect such as the old Herald's AoE Stun Break. Also a decent AoE Barrier or heal would be nice.
    Self Retaliation also would be nice here. Some Stability would also be a nice Support bonus for this.

    Honestly with the way the animation is, I feel it should blast and do some damage as well.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    I like the Defense Support nature of it when traited, but besides that it cost too much and duration too short for its cost, and its trait requirement. Would like if it had an additional effect such as the old Herald's AoE Stun Break. Also a decent AoE Barrier or heal would be nice.
    Self Retaliation also would be nice here. Some Stability would also be a nice Support bonus for this.

    Honestly with the way the animation is, I feel it should blast and do some damage as well.

    It’s an amazing uncurrptable 50% damage reducer imo problem lies with its 90sec cd trait, it needs to make more of a wooosh, I needs to be a soft cc as well, as much the damage reducer is amazing since can’t be removed, it’s just that on expensive energy, damage and some sorta cc enemies would be nice or having its energy shafted to half would be a good option as well.
    One group with rotgd rotation with other classes on wvw can became almost unlivable.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    The combo you can push with weakness and damage reduction is amazing but the circumstances to pull it off in the right scenario's are tricky compared Ancient Echo because the application/resource is terrible to manage. Next to Renegade, Core can't effectively benefit from Jalis except under a very specific set of traits because of that delay, the energy is more or less of a bother though if Pain Absorption can last 5 seconds on Herald and have only ½ delay, surely they can at least make RotGD a bit faster, like ¾ even if it's not a removable it doesn't make you immune to any damage and it's lack of use popularity shows that it wouldn't power creep it at all, only make viable in more situations.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Doto.6357 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    Renegade stunbreak is on the daze summon not on the heal skill

    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever... My point stands.

    I do not think the: “garbage” part is rev exclusive by any means. And honestly, there has been a clear change in Anet balance either personnel, monitoring or methodology, about a year ago. And ever since things have been getting from bad to worse.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arkantos.7460 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    ...They released Renegade with the breakstun in the healing skill; Revenant skill balance team have been garbage since forever...

    yeaI I remember XD
    who in the univererse was the reason for this ....

    Probably the same one who thought chronomancer continuum split should be merged with distortion 4 years later.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    I like the Defense Support nature of it when traited, but besides that it cost too much and duration too short for its cost, and its trait requirement. Would like if it had an additional effect such as the old Herald's AoE Stun Break. Also a decent AoE Barrier or heal would be nice.
    Self Retaliation also would be nice here. Some Stability would also be a nice Support bonus for this.

    Honestly with the way the animation is, I feel it should blast and do some damage as well.

    Minus the damage (blast would be fitting for Diabolic Inferno), I like your points and agree with your suggestions. AoE barrier would be pretty sweet honestly and would create better synergy between it and Ventari since it would get value out of healing power.

    As far as Stability goes, I'd like to see Versed in Stone changed to the following:

    -Remove passive RotGD and stat conversion.
    -Retain the condition mitigation within the trait. I think this is important because in WvW it forces players off of Devastation or Invocation if they want the added utility, which is a significant loss in damage.
    -New feature: Grant stability [x3] to nearby allies (360 radius) when using an elite skill. 30-45s ICD.

    That, AoE barrier, and better access to regen for the core class and I'd play the kitten out of a core support build.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To think that most skills gets a short stack of stability on stunbreak, just one would already make a huge difference as it is literally the only stunbreak in the game that's this long.

  • Kahrgan.7401Kahrgan.7401 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    I'm pretty sure there has never in this game been another stunbreak that was ever even close to 1.25 sec cast time unless the cast was protected by a block or evade. This is pretty much the only reason jalis isn't worth using in pvp as it is too susceptible to cc and focus fire. At least cut the cast in half while also giving aegis at the start of the cast, or just make the cast a channeled block like shelter, it is already expensive enough it can't be spammed.

    Jalis line in general is pretty MEH. Road is boring, Spinning hammers is boring, taunt is decent now, but really hard to get more than 1 taunted anyway.

    I feel that Jalis road should be removed and give us something else.

    Vengeful hammers should at the least give retal for its duration. But I would like to see it removed as a toggle, and added as a CD of 12 seconds, 20 energy, gives you its current effect for 10 seconds.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's a stunbreak consuming 40 energy with a 1¼ cast time. Back in the days where things we're more slow and aggravating with big meaningful procedures, it made sense. Now? It doesn't hold up as great, very pro active skills are required and it ruins the flow or pace of playing with Jalis, it does not deserve to have such ultra high risk for medium reward. The gameplay is much more fast paced than before and the cast time is an insult to the legend in the terms of today standards.

    Suggestions:
    1. Make the cast time ½ second.
    2. Make energy cost 30.
    3. Versed in Stone Condition Damage Reduction is baseline to the skill while the new trait provides stability on stunbreak with it's passive RotGD removed.

    I am not saying all of these should be added together, maybe 1+2 or 2+3 but those are generally ways the skill could go to be more relevant because as of right now, there is almost no incentive to use it, nor being Versed in Stone particularly useful unless you build around it which is ineffective overall compared Steadfast Rejuvenate that can mitigate as much depending on the pressure and is overall more useful to all legends rather than just one skill, 3 seconds of Stability on stunbreak would benefit all legends and give people a good opt that makes energy less prone to be wasted by CC chains.

    Even Renegade makes better use of Jalis skills than the traitline (Retribution) does to Jalis itself. Something has to be done. Inspiring Reinforcement is 99% of the time a better skill to use compared it for the minor trait, weakness and stability compared a long vulnerable long cast of a skill that is likely to be too late mitigating damage.

    " 3. Versed in Stone Condition Damage Reduction is baseline to the skill while the new trait provides stability on stunbreak with it's passive RotGD removed."
    How about making the new trait giving 2 stability & an group-stunbreak to 5 allies

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    my problem is that it cost energy of 40, even when its not casted/interrupted

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    As long as the Condition Damage Reduction goes somewhere else to make it an uniform tank baseline is the best bet I have, would make Power Revenant a lot less allergic to conditions too given the little cleanse.

    With Spirit Boon it's technically possible to share Stability on a stunbreak, but anyway. Making it similar to PA would be very nice, instead of sharing Resistance it would be Stability. One stack would be enough though because I don't want this to have an ICD, I'd be okay with the cast time of any stunbreak if it was this way because this means it'll be effective across all legends, perhaps making Invocation feel less mandatory as well, it's not like it could be spammed because it requires a stunbreak to activate anyway, If that's too powerful, make it so that when granting RotGD you gain and share Stability with the effect, a bit similar to Demonic Defiance but shared, however reduce the cast time to not get it stunned before it ends or have the final result be useless because in 1 second there's already so much that can happen.

    @Knighthonor.4061
    my problem is that it cost energy of 40, even when its not casted/interrupted

    The energy cost for the effect is fair, it's how it can be stopped so easily that it's not. Hence the ideas above.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    Change it to self upkeep. Lore has to stop getting into balance.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Change it to self upkeep. Lore has to stop getting into balance.

    That would be to strong since rotgd is really very good.
    It’s a 50% direct cut in damage taken....that can’t be removed, at best Anet could prolong its effect and make it an aoe stunbreaker by removing the condi damage trait w/o increasing energy cost for me that’s what means to put it in our with current game.

    I don’t know if you know but jalis F2 from herald is already a upkeep that can’t be removed and reduces damage from 10 players....

    In wvw I see a lot of jalis user but few know how really choose the right time to use it...

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    I'm pretty sure there has never in this game been another stunbreak that was ever even close to 1.25 sec cast time unless the cast was protected by a block or evade. This is pretty much the only reason jalis isn't worth using in pvp as it is too susceptible to cc and focus fire. At least cut the cast in half while also giving aegis at the start of the cast, or just make the cast a channeled block like shelter, it is already expensive enough it can't be spammed.

    Just move the stun break to another skill already. Road already gives stability so it makes sense there conceptually.

    Gameplaywise, it'd also be nice to attach it to Vengeful Hammers, since this is a low energy cost, instacast skill... It would give it a feel more inline with Glint's stun break, which we all love. Although maybe you would have to give the stun break aspect of it an internal cd to stop it from being op... Or, you know what? It'd almost be fine if Jalis had unlimited stuzbreaks anyways--both conceptually and balance wise, sine the stance is already insanely kiteable. It could give interesting counterplay routes even: hard cc being useless against Jalis, but soft-cc being hyper effective.

  • @narcx.3570 said:

    Gameplaywise, it'd also be nice to attach it to Vengeful Hammers

    Doesn't smacking someone in the head with a hammer usually have the opposite effect?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, I'm already in the habit of activating Vengeful Hammers in lieu of a stunbreak, since it both allows you to keep some pressure up and provides some protection against CC. It's not the revenant being hit in the head by the hammers, after all, and it fits the "vengeful" aspect of the skill: try and pull a hard-CC-and-spike on me, and I'll smack you and your friends in the heads with hammers.

    Personally, though, I think that giving RotGD some protection against being interrupted would probably do the job, whether it's stability, a block during the cast time a la Shelter, or some other effect that makes it harder to interrupt.

    Another possibility could be to make it use less energy when used as a stunbreak. Which would fit the general "if you hit me it'll only make me stronger" theme: hitting a Jalis rev with a hard CC gives them the opportunity to use a stronger RotGD.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.
    To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

    At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    I'm inclined to disagree with removing the casting time. It's SUPPOSED to be a high-tell, high-impact skill, akin to Jade Winds and Chaotic Release. Problem is that combining that with being a stunbreak that doesn't protect against follow-up stuns means that it's easy to hit it with a follow-up stun, draining energy for little benefit.

    It's that protection from re-stunning that make the other stunbreaks so much better. Riposting Shadows is the best revenant stunbreak because it follows up with an evade frame and gets you out of there, making an immediate re-stun unlikely. Gaze of Darkness is an area blind, possibly causing re-stun attempts to miss. Pain Absorption's Resistance protects against taunt and fear, and also protects against soft CC that immobilise, cripple, and chill that might otherwise hinder you from getting out of the follow-up attack. Even Darkrazor, awkward as it can be using him as a stunbreak, covers his own casting with Stability and then applies heavy counter-CC.

    RotGD... does none of that. The 50% damage reduction helps survive whatever spike the attacker planned to follow up with, if you get it off, but that 1.25s cast time is completely unprotected, and none of the stability access that Jalis has access to can be called in to protect the completion of a skill which is used as a stunbreak (since True Nature has a cast time, albeit a short one).

    Shortening the cast time I could get behind, but I don't think it should go below the 0.75s of Chaotic Release. It is, after all, supposed to be an echo of a ritual that took several minutes to perform, not something you just turn on with a thought. However, that cast time needs to be covered by something so that pinning down a Jalis revenant isn't simply a matter of chaining two stuns in quick succession while they don't have Stability. Maybe it could cover itself with a stack of Stability, maybe a block, maybe invulnerability (although I'd hesitate to make it something so strong that it would likely prevent capture point contribution), but I think it does need to have something. And unlike making it an instant cast, I think it is fitting for it to provide some strong protection to the user while it's being invoked before dispersing that protection to the user's allies.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.
    To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

    At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

    Endure pain is what ur looking for.
    Jalis is for phisical damage, i would request to rework the trait rather the skill since grandmaster trait has a secondary effect on a ICD.

    Besides that renegade healing aoe is a condi damage reducer.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Its a full-energy drain that doesnt reduce damage from conditions or life siphon etc.
    To that, there are many problems with getting it "casted"

    At first, they should remove its casting time.- Then its actually worth to be used as stunbreak

    Endure pain is what ur looking for.
    Jalis is for phisical damage, i would request to rework the trait rather the skill since grandmaster trait has a secondary effect on a ICD.

    Besides that renegade healing aoe is a condi damage reducer.

    tbh, it wouldnt be that bad. Warrior has tons of ways to be completely immune with close to no drawback, while revs with jalis have to spend all their energy into physical damage reduction ,or into demon for condi dmg reduction.
    To that, Endure pain isnt even a elite skill or has cast time + it can be used as a passive trait.
    and even if its still not working against conditions, the warrior has enough health to stand & enough cleansing too.-

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    Dwarf is remarkably build around stability, just like Demon is more about Resistance. The idea behind granting stability on a elite skill (New suggestion.) makes for a more interesting self sustain approach that could in term force people off Steadfast as well as making Inspiring less mandatory to use, leaving more energy to play with since as said before, it's almost impossible to keep any momentum without using Inspiring but then you can't do RotGD without Charged Mists and Spirit Boon gives up on Mobility as core revenant wasting on a utility slot. The restrictions are too tight for anything to be pulled off efficiently as Dwarf takes too much time to be effective in the heat of the moment.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

    That would be interesting 2-3 sec of it won’t be op besides most players don’t even use jalis on the right times/moment, this also m8 change how people start using jalis elite.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That would be a little confusing, perhaps a bit OP to be immune to CC entirely as the buff is shared. It's kind of the purpose of Inspiring to do so.

    Let's keep the counter play in there and rather focus on why RotGD is bad as a stunbreak even if the legend has access to insane amount of stability.

    • It doesn't make it as tanky as it would help to be this much exposed using RotGD. Think of it like with Pain Absorption, they both mitigate either spectrum of damage but PA is not slow as hell, so why should RotGD be? Like said, because it can't be stripped? It's not Endure Pain, there's a lot more involved around it to be effectively worth it as a skill, thus why the cast time needs to be at least ¾, ever used Quickness with it? It feels just right, like it's actually worth using, doesn't ruin the flow.
    • Being such a long cast easily let ANYONE CC chain and it's the biggest problem, even if stability is remotely available after evade or Inspiring, you have no energy left which I can understand the reasoning behind because assuming defensive moves should remove the ability to be offensive, problem is you're STILL vulnerable using the skill at a high risk of being wasted for not having evaded or using Inspiring for stability first which honestly doesn't leave you to use RotGD anyway because you'll take so much damage waiting for the energy that Vengeful Hammers with SR is worth it better in the end. There's too much pro-active gameplay instead of reactive, it doesn't work well in PvP but nor would it be useful in PvE since there's better ways of doing it anyway.
  • Muh 50% reduction. Here go facetank with Rite and still eat 10k rapid fire. Its barely better than protection which some classes can train to 40%.
    As it stands rn Rite should be insta with 30 energy cost

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    Dwarf gets a lot and lot of weakness, the idea is to combine all those damage reduction bonuses with it, but again. Takes hella to long too perform to be something to pull off consistently.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    Muh 50% reduction. Here go facetank with Rite and still eat 10k rapid fire. Its barely better than protection which some classes can train to 40%.
    As it stands rn Rite should be insta with 30 energy cost

    I think sometimes atackers client or server skips Rotg and don’t add it to the formula.

    Imo rotgd should give the armor value for the 50% reducer that way we could be sure it is working.

    Assuming 50% damage reducer would be arround 4~5k armor... for 3-4 seconds.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Would like self CC immunity as well under Dwarf if it remains as is. Pretty much a Unique boon version of Stablity that isnt stripped.

    That's basically what Jalis would need to become somewhat viable, some sort of unstrippable, long duration immunity to hard cc... The same concept should also be applied to Pain Absorption in Mallyx, but for a non-boon, class unique buff version of Resistance.

    If a legend's design needs a specific boon to function, it can't be expected to perform outside of PvE against anyone with half a brain, because everyone has loads of boonstrip/corrupt. It's sad and shouldn't be the case that Jalis, a legend built around stability and tanking, is weaker to focused cc than Shiro.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @narcx.3570 said:

    Giving Mallyx a non-boon is a bad idea, it's already strong as it is. Giving Dwarf the same treatment is also a bad idea because of the isolation of effect.

    Giving CC immunity up to 5 players in a form non counter-able buff with Stability already available on demand.. I'd prefer that we actually fix the glaring issues of the skill first rather than jump right away into overwhelmingly strong ideas.

    Buffs mechanics needs to be unified so that we can improve them, being stuck with 2 seconds of unchangeable Resistance would suck, so much for Dwarf as well because that's not the actual issue right now with the skill.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    Giving Mallyx a non-boon is a bad idea, it's already strong as it is. Giving Dwarf the same treatment is also a bad idea because of the isolation of effect.

    Giving CC immunity up to 5 players in a form non counter-able buff with Stability already available on demand.. I'd prefer that we actually fix the glaring issues of the skill first rather than jump right away into overwhelmingly strong ideas.

    Buffs mechanics needs to be unified so that we can improve them, being stuck with 2 seconds of unchangeable Resistance would suck, so much for Dwarf as well because that's not the actual issue right now with the skill.

    Should clarify that I meant these nonboon buffs would be self only, it would obviously be too strong to give your whole group immunty to cc or condis...

    And Mallyx is only strong against people who can't kite/strip properly.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    this has me interested in running some number testing.

    Protection vs Rite

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    just ... Lower energy cost by min 10 and cast time to 1/2 sec ... then perfect fine

  • What if... there were a style of support Revenant which reduces incoming damage via Jalis, while healing allies with Staff?

    • Buff to 10 targets
      -Slightly reduced cast time
      -Reduced energy cost

    • Grandmaster trait to also grant Protection? (66.5% dmg protection instead of 50)

    It could be a niche for heal revs? Use it before Greens on VG? (If it works...)

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    Reminder that the skill functionality is fine and WORKS well when used as intended, the problem is: Takes too long to cast and thus too risky to use, the energy cost is too high to synergy with anything.

    The way Anet intended this to be used was with SotM + Spirit Boon, which works REALLY well, but to pull it off any other way is a real challenge because the energy cost is high and cast is too long (Again.). Hence why the buffs needed so that variety can be achieved, this can also help greatly with the flow of the legend.

    So in the end, the best buffs would indeed be;
    *Slightly reduced cast time.
    or
    *Reduced energy cost.
    Not both, because as it stands it's not as underpowered as most seem to think, people have too high expectation of that skill all alone. I lean to the cast time however.

    Ventari Jalis works really well, the only problem like EVERY Ventari builds is the lack of stunbreak in the legend, thus making it an easy target in team fights. Stability on evade is not enough for it, but the Inspiring Reinforcement buff really helped, looking forward to trying it more often once they fix Hammer.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So in the days of playing Jalis with either core legends, I have been called cancer many times as I have been enjoying a certain way to play the legend. Which is honestly how Anet intended it to be but being so specific, it kills any other potential the legend has.

    That is the cast time, I can see why the energy cost is so high, I can see why they expect you to never get CC on Jalis, but latter is the same. The skill takes too long to channel and it ruins the flow badly, also even with stability it's not impossible to get CC. So whether it was for balance or counterplay, the cast time hasn't aged well and needs to be adjusted today so that more people as well as ideas can benefit from it.

    Quickness with RotGD feels just right, so ¾ sounds like a sweet spot.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think most of the times I get a RotGD interrupted it's in the last half a second or so, too, so unless my opponents are deliberately waiting until the last moment before interrupting it, a 0.75s activation time would make it a lot more likely to complete.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Played a ton of Jalis and I still think the cast needs to be a little shorter, I've became used to prepare myself with it but that doesn't mean it's any better when you remind yourself it's 1¼ to fully cast with the highest energy cost Revenant skill in the game.

    It's a /VERY/ strong skill but the cast time really messes with the flow, 1 second would be better and not make players feel so vulnerable everytime.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    for this high cost, there should be immunity to cc
    its frustrating, casting this skill and getting cced right after ...GG

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020

    @Arkantos.7460 said:
    for this high cost, there should be immunity to cc
    its frustrating, casting this skill and getting cced right after ...GG

    The reason why it doesn't;

    • Spirit Boon
    • Unwavering Avoidance

    The skill is meant to be casted while reading people moves mostly along everything else in the Revenant utility and traits.