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Gods vs Elder Dragons (includes PoF spoiler)


Funky.4861

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Ok so we know that the gods are strongly magical beings and the ED's consume magic etc etc, but why does Kormir say that the gods would be no match for the ED's? We literally flew around Zhaitan in a flimsy pact ship spitting cannonballs and it went down. Are you telling me that none of the gods has the same offensive strength as (what was it- 3? 6?) some cannons?Yes i have read the divine magic discussions and the reasons for the gods leaving tyria, but it's quite dissatisfying.Is it just another example of bad writing/a plot hole?

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If you recall, Zhaitan was only as weak as he was when we fought him because-We killed his eyes, rendering him blind-Destroyed his mouth, which starved him-Trahearne cleansed the Artesian Waters that served as the source of Orr, and contributed much to the spread of Zhaitan's corruptionBy the time we actually fought Zhaitan, he was basically anemic, and even then, it took a giant super laser made specifically to negate dragon energy to bring him out of the sky, and weaken him enough to the point where normal cannons could kill him.

People have asked this question since the game came out, and it just boggles me that anyone can when the game constantly shoves in your face how everything you are doing in Orr is to weaken Zhaitan before you fight him.

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Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

And because of what we have done, magic is growing rampant all over the world (hence the leyline anomaly’s and “unbound magic”. In PoF, we're told the Cataclysm started BECAUSE they decided to off 2 Elder Dragons - apparently, whatever they did to fix it allowed breathing room for 2 more dragons to be offed before the world REALLY went to hell.

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

Gods in power are similar to dragons, then make the analogy, what if an elder dragon fight another elder dragon mmm? the same would happen with gods vs elder dragons. Both are massives forces of magic (and if we ask a god not to use his/her full strenght to avoid this scenario, he/she would most likely end up being killed by the dragons), on the other side, tyrians are mortals beings incapable of causing as much collateral damage as a dragon or a god could do, while we can kill either of them with all our forces (or brains, at least) combined.

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@Pax.3548 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

Gods in power are similar to dragons, then make the analogy, what if an elder dragon fight another elder dragon mmm? the same would happen with gods vs elder dragons. Both are massives forces of magic (and if we ask a god not to use his/her full strenght to avoid this scenario, he/she would most likely end up being killed by the dragons), on the other side, tyrians are mortals beings incapable of causing as much collateral damage as a dragon or a god could do, while we can kill either of them with all our forces (or brains, at least) combined.

Irrelevant. There is nothing stopping the Gods from having gone after Zhaitan's eyes and mouths to blind and starve him, then using their magic to cleanse the source of Orr. At that point they could kill Zhaitan without ever exerting more power than what our canons were capable of. In game we proved that this is a viable way to kill an elder dragon, there's no reason the Gods couldn't have done the same thing

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@Pax.3548 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

Gods in power are similar to dragons, then make the analogy, what if an elder dragon fight another elder dragon mmm? the same would happen with gods vs elder dragons. Both are massives forces of magic (and if we ask a god not to use his/her full strenght to avoid this scenario, he/she would most likely end up being killed by the dragons), on the other side, tyrians are mortals beings incapable of causing as much collateral damage as a dragon or a god could do, while we can kill either of them with all our forces (or brains, at least) combined.

Irrelevant. There is nothing stopping the Gods from having gone after Zhaitan's eyes and mouths to blind and starve him, then using their magic to cleanse the source of Orr. At that point they could kill Zhaitan without ever exerting more power than what our canons were capable of. In game we proved that this is a viable way to kill an elder dragon, there's no reason the Gods couldn't have done the same thing

They DON'T WANT to be part of the elder dragon conflict, end of the matter, call them selfish if you don't buy the excuse they gave us.

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@OriOri.8724 said:Irrelevant. There is nothing stopping the Gods from having gone after Zhaitan's eyes and mouths to blind and starve him, then using their magic to cleanse the source of Orr. At that point they could kill Zhaitan without ever exerting more power than what our canons were capable of. In game we proved that this is a viable way to kill an elder dragon, there's no reason the Gods couldn't have done the same thing

The difference is that mortals have a different range of destructive capabilities. The gods may not be able to withhold enough to not cause devastation, they may not know how to fight without causing upheaval.

There's also no reason they would go through such a roundabout manner either, given that they don't need to. They may not even think like a mortal here with "weaken the enemy because otherwise we cannot hope to confront and defeat this foe".

Also keep in mind that the gods' mere presence could send the Elder Dragons in a frenzy, given that they are literally vessels for massive amounts of magic. It may be impossible for the gods to subtly go through and hinder the Elder Dragons' sources of magic before a direct confrontation.

Furthermore, it may even be possible for the mortals to have fought the way they did solely because they are mortals and not giant vessels of omnoms for the Elder Dragons. The personal story (and, in all honesty, Heart of Thorns as well) makes it a point to show that Zhaitan and Mordremoth underestimated the Pact - more so Zhaitan - and it was that underestimation that allowed the Pact to take such a foothold into Orr and eventually drain Zhaitan of his power. With Mordremoth, though he initially hunted down the Pact Fleet and Commander, he stopped caring once he destroyed the fleet and instead focused on Tarir - this change in focus gave the Pact enough time to regroup and strike Mordremoth, eventually killing him (do note how there are next to no Exalted in Dragon's Stand, despite the fact they clearly ally with the Pact, and are immune to dragon corruption - meanwhile we see Rata Novan golems, Nuhoch hyleks, and Itzle Hyleks in the lanes - this indicates that the Exalted were too busy to aid in confronting Mordremoth).

Something tells me that neither Zhaitan nor Mordremoth would have underestimated the gods the way thy did the Pact.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:There were exalted in Dragon Stand. I cannot remember which lane, but there is an event to free some exalted units.

Yeah I remember it too, it was in the north lane, but if I remember correctly those weren't exalted npcs, only players wearing the exalted armor for supports (not the same thing).

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@Narcemus.1348 said:There were exalted in Dragon Stand. I cannot remember which lane, but there is an event to free some exalted units.

There's a very small group of cut-off Exalted, that got trapped by mordrem before the events of Dragon's Stand. Unlike the other lanes, which had ogres, skritt, nuhoch, and itzel joining in from the other maps, those Exalted do not come from Tarir for the intention of fighting Mordremoth, but were stationed at the destroyed Exalted outpost. IIRC, after being freed they leave the area (I don't recall any Exalted NPCs aiding in the lane progression afterwards, unlike the beetles, etc.)

Then there are (even more) Enchanted Armors which players can control that Pax talks about.

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I like the underestimation explanation. Though I think making Mordremoth talk in words was a bad move because I prefer the "unfathomable force of nature" approach to the Elder Dragons, both the DS meta end battle and the story end battle definitely support that theory, with all the remarks about how we are nothing compared to "the infinite".

If memory serves, at least with the personal story and the creation of the second-generation airships, it was also made pretty explicit that the Pact won because it brought everyone and their unique strengths together, something that may well be unprecendented. (And honestly, that was one of my favourite aspects of the personal story, something I sorely miss in the new much more narrow and simple focus on the "Dragon's Watch" NPCs). LS3 lore spoke of an attempt at an alliance in the previous cycle as well, but it fractured and was betrayed.

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@Westenev.5289 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

And because of what we have done, magic is growing rampant all over the world (hence the leyline anomaly’s and “unbound magic”. In PoF, we're told the Cataclysm started BECAUSE they decided to off 2 Elder Dragons - apparently, whatever they did to fix it allowed breathing room for 2 more dragons to be offed before the world REALLY went to hell.

yea I'm surprised ppl didn't freak out about there having been 8 dragons

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

She kind of did, I think.

Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods-a raw, primal force without equal.

"Beyond even the gods" + "raw, primal force without equal" sounds like she's saying that the dragons would beat them in a fair fight.

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@Fenom.9457 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

Kormir says that a battle between god and dragon would be as cataclysm as the battle between the five and Abaddon, which had turned a verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, and turned a sea into a desert. Such a battle would be wiping out all life in huge swaths of land.

Whereas mortals versus dragon, while devastating, would not be cataclysmic, the landscape could be healed and civilizations nearby not harmed by aftermath.

Its kind of a weak argument. By taking down Mordremoth and Zhaitan, we (the Commander and co) have shown that its possible to fight elder dragons and win without causing that kind of destruction, it just depends on how you go about doing it. Sure, if the gods just openly attacked elder dragons it would be bad, but you can't really argue that they couldn't fight them in a manner similar to how the PC fights them (albeit significantly more effectively and quickly).

And because of what we have done, magic is growing rampant all over the world (hence the leyline anomaly’s and “unbound magic”. In PoF, we're told the Cataclysm started BECAUSE they decided to off 2 Elder Dragons - apparently, whatever they did to fix it allowed breathing room for 2 more dragons to be offed before the world REALLY went to hell.

yea I'm surprised ppl didn't freak out about there having been 8 dragons

There wasn't. When Sadizi was explaining Glint's legacy, the two dragons who were unexpectedly killed refers to Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Which is very weird since that was after Tarir and Kesho were made, but Sadizi's wording makes it sound like the legacy was formed because of those deaths.

Basically, though, what he means is that Glint and the Forgotten weren't expecting for mortals to strike down Zhaitan and Mordremoth. The Pact Commander was outside their expectations.

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Kormir doesn't say that the gods would be no match for the Elder Dragons.

She kind of did, I think.

Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods-a raw, primal force without equal.

"Beyond even the gods" + "raw, primal force without equal" sounds like she's saying that the dragons would beat them in a fair fight.

If you take that one line out of context, I can see that. But "beyond the gods" does not mean "stronger than the gods", and just because something is without equal doesn't mean it is without superiors.

It's a tricky line, and the whole conversation makes it sound (to me) like the gods can be fight the dragons fair and square, but the dragons have limitless potential which makes them a "raw, primal force without equal" and marks them as potentially stronger (as well as potentially weaker) than the gods, and that as dragons would be defeated they'd become stronger thus the last one (or even two or three) will be well above the gods' ability to fight them.

Basically, it seems to me that the Elder Dragons' power fluctuate, while the Six Gods' power is stable, and the Elder Dragons' power cap is much higher than the gods, but they aren't in the superior-than-god range just yet (though Kralkatorrik probably is now, if not darn close). Of course, we don't really know what the Six Gods' power is at, really, since the only gods we fight are fallen or weakened gods.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There wasn't. When Sadizi was explaining Glint's legacy, the two dragons who were unexpectedly killed refers to Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Which is very weird since that was after Tarir and Kesho were made, but Sadizi's wording makes it sound like the legacy was formed because of those deaths.The way they spoke of it, I always assumed they had done some sort of magical testing like Taimi did to discover what would happen if two were removed.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Irrelevant. There is nothing stopping the Gods from having gone after Zhaitan's eyes and mouths to blind and starve him, then using their magic to cleanse the source of Orr. At that point they could kill Zhaitan without ever exerting more power than what our canons were capable of. In game we proved that this is a viable way to kill an elder dragon, there's no reason the Gods couldn't have done the same thing

The difference is that mortals have a different range of destructive capabilities. The gods may not be able to withhold enough to not cause devastation, they may not know how to fight without causing upheaval.

This is what gives sense for Gods to bring the Forgotten and other types of servants to perform "smaller jobs".

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@Malediktus.9250 said:The whole story is of lazy plotholes that not make sense. There is no logic behind anything in the story of this game.

There's some logic, but it also gets broken often enough for people to notice the inconsistencies and come to the same conclusion that you have. I'm honestly surprised that their narrative lead hasn't found a better system for diagnosing inconsistencies before they go live. I've seen other studios with fewer issues and a greater centralized focus than Guild Wars 2. I get the impression that they tried to build a very complicated narrative machine with too many moving parts without developing a strategy to efficiently manage it.

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