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Resource Proposition

Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 18, 2019 in Mesmer

Okay, we have had a number of propositions regarding clones as a resource, and I think there may be a solution that allows for the most benefit with minimal adjustments.

  • Make clone generation fill the resource bar up to 3
  • Clone counter no longer resets out of combat or after a target dies
  • Clones existing no longer affects resource counter
  • Shatter effects and animations remain but no longer kill clones
  • Shatter effects are applied by Mesmer next attack (damage/confusion/interrupt on next attack)

The only changes here are application of damage: suicide bombers vs guerilla warfare and how the resource is counted: actively adjusting constantly based on clone existence vs static count of clones generated. The changes proposed would solve Mesmer complaints about not being able to use their shatters in many game situations, and unlink the application of shatters from the clones which makes it easier for enemy players to respond. Shatter effect could have a brief delay before the shatter effect happens, that way the animation of clones mosh pit chest bumping and screaming acts to telegraph the damage of the skill (Tells the enemy to use a defensive or dodge soon). This should function to remove most of the issues with increased variance of the shatters as well, normalizing their damage and allowing them to be tuned more effectively.

Reliability of skills increased, great for both the Mesmer player and their opponent. Lower variance in effect of skill application, better for the Mesmer and easier to adjust for developers if something is performing better than expected. Now I suggest not adjusting any numbers until after seeing if the changes make Mesmer too strong in any area because this is a functional change and requires a bit of adjustment for both Mesmer players and their opponents. The benefits gained in being able to adjust Mesmers meaningfully and have impact with those changes for the betterment of both PvE and PvP should be improved dramatically by this change.

Presently, I would like to invite everyone on these forums to discuss this proposition, and contemplate how it would allow you to play Mesmer in functionally the same way as you do now, or likewise how you could now play against one as you can clearly see when they have used a shatter (though they may need to add a pop of color around the shatter animations to represent which shatter was just used and thus what attack or defense is coming or active).

  • Do you think such changes could be implemented?
  • How would it affect Chrono or Mirage?
  • Does it weaken Mesmer as more is telegraphed?
  • Does it make their damage application too consistent?
  • Does it make clone generation more powerful or less so?
  • Would the clone shatter animations be a big enough visual indicator of when to use defenses against the Mesmer?
  • Is this something both Mesmer and non Mesmer players would be interested in seeing implemented?


  • A little help here please, am I missing some interactions that would make such a change completely broken?

  • The goal/intention is sound, but I’m not really a fan of the proposed method to achieve it. The shatter concept is fundamental to the design of the mesmer - clones must blow up, especially in the target’s face to fulfil the ‘I was an illusion all along’ thematic. It doesn’t matter if the enemy is not deceived since they made a decision to hang around them anyway.

    I’m aware that for the general health of the game, balance should ideally take place before profession theme, but changing shatters to enchantment-like effects sounds like an idea for a unique espec simply because it’s not mesmer. Imagine if you changed guardian symbols in the same way - it just doesn’t feel thematically correct.

    If there was alternative method that still involved the original mesmer shatter concept instead destroying the class thematic, I feel that would be more preferable.


    • Clone generation bar as stated (only that it resets ooc only to prevent opening with 3 clone ‘x’).
    • Clones that are shattering become untargetable, invuln and gain a visual effect that differentiates them from regular clones.
    • When a shatter is used, existing clones shatter as per usual. The game detects whether additional clones need to be summoned according to the clone generation bar, which will be summoned from the mesmer’s location but are initially inactive for a short while.
    • The shatter animation from the actual mesmer is bigger/lingers briefly/made much more obvious (than clones).

    This basically achieves similar results to the proposed changes with different nuances, but at least keeps the original mesmer thematic intact. There is still a benefit and eminent need to cleave clones as they are summoned to avoid being caught out by clones blowing up in your face, but the mesmer does not randomly lose its resource at the same time. And of course, numbers balancing would need to applied later.

    I’m not sure how far this will go anyway since the devs are fairly selective with changes to the professions, so I’m making an effort not to really expect anything.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    Major problem with relying on the clones running to the enemy is that of pathing, where shatters can never hit enemies on a wall. There is much more work involved in trying to get clones to actually reach their target than just making them invulnerable or run faster.

    Edit: I do thank you for the input regarding the thematic appeal though, as it was indeed something I saw more as a secondary concern.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    Major problem with relying on the clones running to the enemy is that of pathing, where shatters can never hit enemies on a wall. There is much more work involved in trying to get clones to actually reach their target than just making them invulnerable or run faster.

    This might be something worth taking up to the devs.

    Whilst I would classify porting away or using specific terrain (i.e. falling off elevation while clones are using stairs) to outmanoeuver shatters as counterplay, there might be a random situation where the opponent is pinging the mesmer from range atop terrain that is completely inaccessible without jumping or using portals (wvw walls blocked by gates are somewhat acceptable since it is meant to be defensible).

    Imagine if a target stands atop a bunch of crates, across a small gap (e.g. harpies on uncategorised fractal) or on a platform above only accessible using a portal (I think a pvp map has this) - the mesmer’s effectiveness is unfairly cut by a significant amount. How should clones and phantasms reach their targets if there is no valid path?

    Should they blink to the target? Where do they blink? Is there a mechanic that can determine where they blink?

    Should they just turn into projectiles that fly straight towards the target? How can this be done without completely butchering the profession thematic?

    Is it to do with where the illusions are spawned? Only certain skills spawn illusions depending on the position of the target.

    What do the devs think?

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Your questions highlight some of the issues with trying to balance the current design of shatters being applied through clones via the suicide bomber thematic, the numerous problems of pathing and trying to circumvent or navigate it. The easiest solution is often the correct one, in removing the issue completely. The benefits of changing to the ideas outlined in the original post go beyond just the functional and gameplay though, as they retain the theme of the profession, in revealing to the enemy which are clones through the shatter animation at the clone current location. Further benefits for both parties is reliability and consistency are improved, which makes it both easier to use the shatters for Mesmer, and avoid the shatter damage because of the visual tells for enemies; it is a single application of the shatter effects and hits all at once, Aegis and Blind become stronger when used against the Mesmer.

    Another thing to note is that these issues of pathing go beyond just PvP or WvW, they are problems sometimes in PvE, where pathing will cause clones to never be able to reach a target that gets knocked back by allies or moves to a target in a place where your clones cannot go to. Also, not being able to go into a fight there at full power (max clone shatter) means not being able to do significant damage in a short window. Furthermore, losing all charges of resource because the target you were on dies means weaker gameplay in PvE situations that require swapping targets... clones shattered go to the old target and ramp time issues become a detriment to the player and a limitation to encounter design for the developers, one in which they have to consider that some professions are just going to under perform unfairly in some situations. Feels bad for the player restricted by the design of the profession functionality.