Latest Scourge upcoming changes (finalized) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Latest Scourge upcoming changes (finalized)

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
Hey again all,

Thanks for the feedback on the proposed Balance Changes over the last three weeks - as a result several notes have been altered and re-visited.
This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

It has been excellent to see that many of the conclusions we have reached internally are the same ones that you're having regarding the proposed changes. It has also been great to see your counterpoints and suggestions to some of the changes we proposed, as they've raised discussions on what the best course of action may be. I look forward to getting your feedback for the next set of potential changes once we’ve released the results from this set and others not discussed here.

Below are the current changes that we're looking at from the proposed set:

Items

  • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

Necromancer

  • Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.
  • Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.
  • Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.
  • Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.
  • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.
  • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
  • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
  • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
  • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

<1

Comments

  • Holy kitten this sucks lol.

  • I guess the reason on the sand savant change is to reduce its burst damage. Instead of hitting the same 5 targets twice, it’ll just hit 10 total targets. Then on top of that it will last longer. Sounds like a buff to me, to be honest.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    Personally I think this makes small scale harder.
    Shade abilities no longer generate around the scourge as long as there is 1 active shade out there.
    Which means at least 1 shade has to be casted on the Scourge itself.
    And I don't like that they made this change without removing the cast time or increasing the shade radius or increasing the ammo count.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Back to reaper with me then.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Hey again all,

    Thanks for the feedback on the proposed Balance Changes over the last three weeks - as a result several notes have been altered and re-visited.
    This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

    It has been excellent to see that many of the conclusions we have reached internally are the same ones that you're having regarding the proposed changes. It has also been great to see your counterpoints and suggestions to some of the changes we proposed, as they've raised discussions on what the best course of action may be. I look forward to getting your feedback for the next set of potential changes once we’ve released the results from this set and others not discussed here.

    Below are the current changes that we're looking at from the proposed set:

    Items

    • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    Necromancer

    • Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.
    • Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.

    This doesn't really make sense. Shades only affect around scourge while no shade active? That's already in the game.
    So if I read between the lines, if I have a shade active, f-abilities will only affect the shade, and not me?

    • Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.

    Seems like a buffnerf. But makes it harder to play for players that arent already good at scourge. Cause as soon as you place a shade, you won't be able to use support shade abilities around you for the next 15 seconds!!!

    • Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.

    From 2 to 5 hidden nerf? Guess it's just a typo.
    But shouldn't this be from 5 to 10?

    • Oppressive Collapse: This skill will require line of sight on the activation.

    Don't think this is needed.

    • Sand Cascade: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP, increase the healing power contribution by 20%, as the healing coefficient is already pretty strong.
    • Sand Flare: Reduce the base barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW, increase the healing power contribution by 33%.
    • Desert Shroud: Increase the base barrier granted by this skill by 10%, increase the healing power contribution by 15% and reduce the damage inflicted by this ability by 20% in WvW.
    • Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
    • Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.
  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Hey again all,

    Thanks for the feedback on the proposed Balance Changes over the last three weeks - as a result several notes have been altered and re-visited.
    This post isn't a request for more feedback, but a heads-up that we're going to be getting the changes tested and vetted internally while we get stuff ready.

    It has been excellent to see that many of the conclusions we have reached internally are the same ones that you're having regarding the proposed changes. It has also been great to see your counterpoints and suggestions to some of the changes we proposed, as they've raised discussions on what the best course of action may be. I look forward to getting your feedback for the next set of potential changes once we’ve released the results from this set and others not discussed here.

    Below are the current changes that we're looking at from the proposed set:

    Items

    • Superior Rune of Antitoxin: Change it so that instead of increasing outgoing condition cleanses by one it instead increases incoming condition cleanses by one, thus only affecting the wielder, but allowing it to scale up with external cleanses.

    Necromancer

    • Scourge: For a long time, Scourge has been a strong elite specialization on the basis of its area coverage. With some of these changes we're looking to re-focus their gameplay around their unique elite spec mechanic, shades. These changes also open up space for improvements to the Scourge's kit in the future as the conversation has been dominated by Scourge's coverage.
    • Scourge: Shade abilities only affect the area around you while you do not have a shade active in the world. This creates a choice of whether to be the focal point for your shade abilities by not summoning a shade or to place a shade at a distance and focus on your shade's positioning relying on distance as your safety. It also offers more distinct styles of gameplay where you may want to close with enemies and avoid having to place shades while being exposed in melee or placing a shade farther away to gain ranged offensive options at the risk of not having shade defensive benefits at your location (unless you place another shade beside you). To address the loss of some of the target cap, the number of targets affected by shade abilities will be increased from 3 to 5.

    This doesn't really make sense. Shades only affect around scourge while no shade active? That's already in the game.
    So if I read between the lines, if I have a shade active, f-abilities will only affect the shade, and not me?

    Yes.

    • Manifest Sand Shade: The duration of sand shades in WvW & PvP has been increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.

    Seems like a buffnerf. But makes it harder to play for players that arent already good at scourge. Cause as soon as you place a shade, you won't be able to use support shade abilities around you for the next 15 seconds!!!

    It's actually a revert on shade duration nerf in competitive game modes. On release it lasted 15s but was deemed too long.

    • Sand Savant: Increase the number of targets sand shade affect from 2 to 5, so that when traited you either affect up to 10 targets around you or have a single shade which affects up to 10 targets rather than the current incarnation where you've got a shade that affects 5 targets and you affect 5 targets near you.

    From 2 to 5 hidden nerf? Guess it's just a typo.
    But shouldn't this be from 5 to 10?

    The increase. Currently shade affect 3 people and sand savant bumps that to 5. It's around you and the shade so the max is 10. Now base shades hit 5 people and sand savant adds 5 more for again a total of 10. Once more this is a revert on a nerf on shade target caps at release.

    For me all these changes do is encourage people not to use the mechanic. The problem is sand savant not being a support trait but being used for damage. It should change the MSS proc to do boons/healing/[any supportive effect. That would have solved the problem around what people are complaining about, solidify it as a support trait and add strong support options to the class that don't revolve around going down.

    This change actually strengthens the playstyle people were complaining about! I feel they missed the mark on this one and just make scourge very difficult/clunky to play going forward.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Awesome, they truly manage to make things even worse, previously people complained because shades with sand savant were wrecking 5 players at once in their zerg and now they will complain that shades with sand savant wreck 10 players at once in their zerg... Truly, the devs never cease to amaze me...

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    Truth be told, dps scourge will probably just give up on using shades, from a dps point of view, it will merely be a loss of condition duration, no more no less and since you can probably already overcap condition duration, it should be fine. It's not like condi scourge have an impressive dps anyway, so a bit less won't even be registered in the players minds.

    Overall, I'm really wondering how anet could come up with such changes based on what I've read on the feedback thread. It's like they didn't even understood that the problem of the sand savant scourge is it's ability to deal damage with shades. If we weren't in september I'd suspect those notes to be a bad april fool's joke.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, this changes of arenanet does exactly the opposite of what everyone wants xD. scourge will be BUSTED in zerg fights while weaker in small scale. will be funny...

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    I can't pretend that I am an experienced Necro player, but these changes just seem like they will make Scourge extremely clunky. Not having access to instant shade skills seems like a huge hit and would create a huge risk to even place a shade, especially for small-scale like @EremiteAngel.9765 listed. It seems like it would make Scourges waaaaay too vulnerable because of how easy it could be to bait out a shade, kite it, and then cc-lock them while they don't have the time to cast another shade at their feet.

    The big part of what makes the changes seem awkward to me is that you have to wait out a 15-second natural duration in order to gain access to point-blank shade skills again. It just sounds so incredibly clunky because you can't force a duration expiration to get quick access to point-blank shade skills in a pinch.

    I don't really think the current iteration of Scourge is particularly healthy for the game, but at least in small-scale, my impressions of the changes are that they would make the Scourge even easier focus targets than they already are. To be honest, they sound terrible.

    They made those change with a WvW centric mindset where people were complaining that shades were dealing damage to too many people, making it impossible to push through and fight in melee. Their idea was probably to concentrate more this fire power and support in order to force players to duck it out into the shade area of effect or use the shade as an area denial tool in order to control the movement of the ennemy zerg. Which is a very very stupid way to address the issue.

  • Thanks to irenio for the response. We look forward to the results of your testing and vetting.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Though solo scourge gets completely smushed.
    While support of scourge completely dropps.

    Now everyone can just spam their f-abilities just for doing dmg.
    No need to hold back f3 to give the group barrier

    Well that's kinda like people already do it. At least the average scourge player

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    Something that just came to my mind:

    Most people will just use the shades in a pirate ship kind of way.
    But there will also be a Playstyle, that's called "healing ball, no shades"

    Back to hot meta. Where you don't place any shades, and try to get into the enemy group (invis) then spam shade abilities.

    So you have 10 man shade abilities while moving, also supporting your group with barrier and Condi cleanses

  • Nightshade.2570Nightshade.2570 Member ✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    I think people will avoid your shades.

  • SLOTH.5231SLOTH.5231 Member ✭✭✭

    Everyone is blowing this way out of proportion. Let’s see what the update brings in real world and go from there.

  • I am ok this this as long as some sort of trade off to increase some damage in pve. Currently necro is dead last on dps, and epi is the only good thing that it is brought for. I am sick of necro only getting nerf while ever other class get buff/nerfs. The best example of how broken pve balance is banner warrior, insanely high personal dps with insane increasing squad dps with 10 person banners.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SLOTH.5231 said:
    Everyone is blowing this way out of proportion. Let’s see what the update brings in real world and go from there.

    You see the issue is that ANet seldom go back on a mechanism change even if it's absolutely terrible like warhorn#5 changes for example. So when such an unattractive change like this one which won't resolve the problem at hand in any way is announced, it's only natural for players to voice their worries.

  • @Zero.3871 said:
    Yeah, this changes of arenanet does exactly the opposite of what everyone wants xD. scourge will be BUSTED in zerg fights while weaker in small scale. will be funny...

    how's it gonna be busted ?

  • This change is good tbh. The current state of scourge, it can make huge space coverage which is make fights become pirateship. Now scourge will need to think a bit more about how to use the shade properly. bring the braid back to scourge main.

  • @Nimon.7840 said:
    Something that just came to my mind:

    Most people will just use the shades in a pirate ship kind of way.
    But there will also be a Playstyle, that's called "healing ball, no shades"

    Back to hot meta. Where you don't place any shades, and try to get into the enemy group (invis) then spam shade abilities.

    So you have 10 man shade abilities while moving, also supporting your group with barrier and Condi cleanses

    that sound interesting

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    I can't pretend that I am an experienced Necro player, but these changes just seem like they will make Scourge extremely clunky. Not having access to instant shade skills seems like a huge hit and would create a huge risk to even place a shade, especially for small-scale like @EremiteAngel.9765 listed. It seems like it would make Scourges waaaaay too vulnerable because of how easy it could be to bait out a shade, kite it, and then cc-lock them while they don't have the time to cast another shade at their feet.

    The big part of what makes the changes seem awkward to me is that you have to wait out a 15-second natural duration in order to gain access to point-blank shade skills again. It just sounds so incredibly clunky because you can't force a duration expiration to get quick access to point-blank shade skills in a pinch.

    I don't really think the current iteration of Scourge is particularly healthy for the game, but at least in small-scale, my impressions of the changes are that they would make the Scourge even easier focus targets than they already are. To be honest, they sound terrible.

    So maybe people stop playing it and meta shift ? that would be good.
    Scourge has dominated WvW for tooooooooo long.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2019

    my thoughts on what shade rework should be:

    make shade cd 10s and radius increase baseline across all modes. defense/ support effects centered on necro, offense effects centered on shade. only 5 targets per offense/ defense stuff.
    sand savant: just rework it to something else. maybe a barrier increase to all scourge skills since there is no support orientated gm trait.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • @Serenity.6304 said:
    These changes will make the scourge in PvP even more vulnerable than it is now, probably gonna play something else then. There is no point in being a scourge anymore while dying so fast. And I am 100 % sure that it's gonna be that way.

    I really want to encourage you to express your opinion in the recent thread with those changes. This is the only way we can still change something. The rework is done now anyway, but at least we can fight for a "dismiss all sand shades" button.

    We can't even get a "dismiss all minions" button. :/

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @fewfield.7802 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    Yeah, this changes of arenanet does exactly the opposite of what everyone wants xD. scourge will be BUSTED in zerg fights while weaker in small scale. will be funny...

    how's it gonna be busted ?

    when you can hit 10 people instantly on range? atm you can hit 5 people on range 5 around you. with that change range bomb of scourge become MORE destroying.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Overall the shade skills imo should have only been around the caster from the start of scourge's release.
    The grand master traits should have provided different game play function like being able to place a ranged shade etc.

    THEN AGAIN

    Scourge should have been like a real support with real support tools other than barrier from the start
    Damage should have never been high from the start
    Support should have been added as promised long ago but it never was.

    In wvw scourge will have more ranged offensive power in zergs
    in pvp scourge will become weaker and need even more protection than before or be forced to use more resources to cover itself and the area it wants to target.
    in pve scourge is just gonna be a bit more clunky but should still be fine.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Awesome, they truly manage to make things even worse, previously people complained because shades with sand savant were wrecking 5 players at once in their zerg and now they will complain that shades with sand savant wreck 10 players at once in their zerg... Truly, the devs never cease to amaze me...

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    Truth be told, dps scourge will probably just give up on using shades, from a dps point of view, it will merely be a loss of condition duration, no more no less and since you can probably already overcap condition duration, it should be fine. It's not like condi scourge have an impressive dps anyway, so a bit less won't even be registered in the players minds.

    Overall, I'm really wondering how anet could come up with such changes based on what I've read on the feedback thread. It's like they didn't even understood that the problem of the sand savant scourge is it's ability to deal damage with shades. If we weren't in september I'd suspect those notes to be a bad april fool's joke.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Awesome, they truly manage to make things even worse, previously people complained because shades with sand savant were wrecking 5 players at once in their zerg and now they will complain that shades with sand savant wreck 10 players at once in their zerg... Truly, the devs never cease to amaze me...

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    Truth be told, dps scourge will probably just give up on using shades, from a dps point of view, it will merely be a loss of condition duration, no more no less and since you can probably already overcap condition duration, it should be fine. It's not like condi scourge have an impressive dps anyway, so a bit less won't even be registered in the players minds.

    Overall, I'm really wondering how anet could come up with such changes based on what I've read on the feedback thread. It's like they didn't even understood that the problem of the sand savant scourge is it's ability to deal damage with shades. If we weren't in september I'd suspect those notes to be a bad april fool's joke.

    The thing is, you have to place shade because of sadistic searing+getting to 100% condi duration. Its a big dps loss if you dont. without placing shade makes the class a melee condi class with low dps. And i remember they said its a ranged hybrid support class from its introduction. Idk, the changes seem very rushed and not given much thought.

    Unless they also change sadistic searing and give free ~15% condi duration these changes will delete pve scg

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    The feedback was saying that the issue was the coverage, what did you expect?

    If you put yourself into ANet's shoes and read the feedback, the way they modify shades is a brilliant way to answer the feedback they got. If I didn't know that the real issue is the damage done, I would even cheer ANet for the good work. After all they keep the 10 targets support while reducing the coverage and offering clear In fight choices of gameplay to the players. You could even say that they make it so the scourge's choices to lay a shade or not, matter strategically.

    Ultimately it won't shut down the complains and will certainly create even more issues but, undeniably, it is a brilliant way to answer the coverage concern that the players voiced.

    Now, I agree with you that scourge was sold as a support spec and damage should have never been it's strong point. I also agree with you that barrier stacks incredibly well in WvW and ANet should probably have focused on a different kind of support. I'll also say that there idea to make scourge's boon corruption corrupt boons into a smaller array of condition was a good idea even if boon corruption is not adapted to PvE (or PvE isn't adapted to boon corruption).

    ANet could have shut down most of the complains long ago by removing the F1 proc on other F skills and reworking F5 into a defensive skill that don't deal damage. This would have made PvE players complains but it would also have made things easier to balance in all gamemodes (even in PvE).

    In PvE, just giving perma vigor to mobs with defiance/breakbar/indomitable would be enough to give some room for boon corruption and thus put all this boon corruption stacked on punishment skills to use. If the damage ain't enough, add 1 or 2 extra stacks of torment when corrupting boons to punishment skills (PvE only) and it would have done the trick.

    They could have changed F5 so that it reduce damage taken by 15% when you stand in the shade/scourge area instead of dealing damage. With sand savant the scourge would have had 30% damage reduction for a few seconds... How OP would that have been?

    They could even make desert empowerment let F5 pulse low amount of barrier for a truly good yet not OP support synergy with abrasive grit.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    The thing is, you have to place shade because of sadistic searing+getting to 100% condi duration. Its a big dps loss if you dont. without placing shade makes the class a melee condi class with low dps. And i remember they said its a ranged hybrid support class from its introduction. Idk, the changes seem very rushed and not given much thought.

    Unless they also change sadistic searing and give free ~15% condi duration these changes will delete pve scg

    Does a range hybrid support spec need to deal competitive damage? I know that it would hurt in PvE but look at the druid for example, except for it's ability to give might, the spec is totally wasted be it for damage or support.

    The scourge is supposed to capitalize on boon corruption to deal damage. Would this be hard to open up some space for this purpose to shine in PvE? Nope, it's just a matter of giving a perma stack of vigor to mobs with defiance/breakbar/undomitable (something that they can already do on training golem). From there they can totally create a "viable" PvE condi spec (even if it mean increasing the number of torment stacks that punishment skills apply when they corrupt a boon in PvE).

    NB.: From my point of view, sadistic searing is and have always been a badly designed trait. Sure it give the player a reason to use F1 but is it really worth? I mean we are talking about 1-2 stacks of burn.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    The feedback was saying that the issue was the coverage, what did you expect?

    If you put yourself into ANet's shoes and read the feedback, the way they modify shades is a brilliant way to answer the feedback they got. If I didn't know that the real issue is the damage done, I would even cheer ANet for the good work. After all they keep the 10 targets support while reducing the coverage and offering clear In fight choices of gameplay to the players. You could even say that they make it so the scourge's choices to lay a shade or not, matter strategically.

    Ultimately it won't shut down the complains and will certainly create even more issues but, undeniably, it is a brilliant way to answer the coverage concern that the players voiced.

    To be honest i was just speaking out loud im not drastically concerned. It was more of just food for thought of my personal opinions

    I think this is a good way to handle coverage when it comes to zone control vs target cap. I cant say im happy with scourge as a whole because scourge turned out to be something other than what i was hoping for originally when they initially wrote it off as a "support" but i think the risk of now not having your own aoe on you and on your shades is good for most game modes in pve it wont matter too much in pvp it makes the risk / reward more outstanding. In wvw the coverage for big zerg fights is going to be even better lol. I think people in wvw will most certainly still complain but at the same time they could have nerfed it heavily and people in wvw would still complain about scourge.

    Scourge is the most viable in wvw and necro being close to the top tier levels of viable in any game mode is simply a nuance for anything that is not a necro or at least thats how it comes off when i read alot of things both here and in game.

    Now, I agree with you that scourge was sold as a support spec and damage should have never been it's strong point. I also agree with you that barrier stacks incredibly well in WvW and ANet should probably have focused on a different kind of support. I'll also say that there idea to make scourge's boon corruption corrupt boons into a smaller array of condition was a good idea even if boon corruption is not adapted to PvE (or PvE isn't adapted to boon corruption).

    The boon corrupting to specific conditions is good i wish there was a bit more touch up across the line on how boon conversions work as well as punishing effects against targets who have no boons so that boon corrupts were still some what viable in pve where boons are kind of rare. Maybe we will get there one day.

    ANet could have shut down most of the complains long ago by removing the F1 proc on other F skills and reworking F5 into a defensive skill that don't deal damage. This would have made PvE players complains but it would also have made things easier to balance in all gamemodes (even in PvE).

    That is a tricky one I would have argued to get rid of the idea of placing shades all together for just moving aoe's that worked defensively and provided area support around the necro. Traits that made barrier stronger than what it is on other professions. etc.

    In PvE, just giving perma vigor to mobs with defiance/breakbar/indomitable would be enough to give some room for boon corruption and thus put all this boon corruption stacked on punishment skills to use. If the damage ain't enough, add 1 or 2 extra stacks of torment when corrupting boons to punishment skills (PvE only) and it would have done the trick.

    That could work or the easier way just as i said above give boon corrupt skills a bonus effect that triggers when used against a foe with no boons. This could be something simple like applying bleeds, torment, or increasing the damage done by that skill. This makes the boon corrupt skills viable in pve while keeping their power to boon manage in pvp and wvw. (even-though i hate necro being the main boon counter in this boon dripping meta.)

    A good example would be necromancer axe 3 right now its bonus strike only triggers on foes under 25% which is kind of ok in pvp every once in a while the extra strike catches some one off guard. I personally would like it better if it did the extra strike if always if the foe you hit with the initial skill has no boons.

    They could have changed F5 so that it reduce damage taken by 15% when you stand in the shade/scourge area instead of dealing damage. With sand savant the scourge would have had 30% damage reduction for a few seconds... How OP would that have been?

    Considering Holo smith was a dps spec that launched with a build that allowed massive dps while being able to hold 50 - 95% damage reduction for both strikes and condi damage i would say not very op. 30% damage reduction for few seconds on something like scourge that has no true shroud would have probably been ok if the f5 did not have a damaging components tacked onto it.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    This is ULTRA CRINGE LEVEL of clunky.

    Even for ANet, and even for necro standards.

    I think the best way for PVP is TO NEVER place a shade untill you already win a fight and are clearing downed bodies. Pathetic bad design.

    it just means if you want to cover the point and yourself you now have to place 2 shades one on the point and one on yourself or simply move yourself to your placed shade. its different it not exactly game breaking but it is forcing you to use more resources or not and just be the shade yourself.

    Perhaps though this is part of their overall plans with what they have cooked up for death magic.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So glass scourge bomb is going from:

    (Range-current)
    1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 5 targets= 16-20k each, 80-100k total
    5x 1 corrupt= 5 corrupts
    5x 1s fear
    2.5k barrier per 5 allies= 12.5k barrier
    2 condi cleanse and 2 might per 5 allies= 10 cleanses and might

    (Melee-current)
    1.5-2k per f1-4, 10k f5, per 10 target= 16-20k each, 160-200k total
    10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts
    10x 1s fear
    2.5k barrier per 10 allies= 25k barrier
    2 condi cleanse and 2 might per 10 allies=20 cleanses and might

    To:

    (Range-new)
    1.5-2k per f1-4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 14k-16k each, 140k-160k total (160% current)
    10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (200% current)
    10x 1s fear (200% current)

    OR

    (Melee-new)
    1.5-2k per f1-4, 8k f5, per 10 targets= 14k-16k each, 140k-160k total (80% current)
    10x 1 corrupt= 10 corrupts (100% current)
    10x 1s fear (100% current)
    1.75k barrier per 10 allies= 17.5k barrier (70% current)
    2 condi cleanses and 2 might per 10 allies= 20 cleanses and might (100% current)

    .....Who on earth thought that was what the players wanted when we asked for sand savant nerfs? Sand savant does too much because it is 10 target. The solution to that is not 'make it vastly easier to land 10 target hits'.

    Sure, the melee bomb from scourge is now 20-30% less effective than it was but you made it significantly easier to do. At the tradeoff of making it 60-100% more effective at range? This change just forces groups to never enter >900 range, because if you do you instantly lose. Way to shake it up!

    As for having to choose whether to bomb at range or in melee, instead every party will have 2 scourges. 1 that bombs at range and 1 that saves the bomb for a melee push/2nd range bomb. And they'll be even stronger bombs than they were since now you only need half as many scourges to bomb in the same place, making it easier to concentrate a spike.

    Or they can cast f3 first, so the shade bomb becomes f3, f1, f5, f2, f4. That way you lose a 1.5-2k damage tick and now provide barrier to 10 people around you instead of 5. While still doing more damage than the current iteration.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What they intend to do does not look wrong to me. If I understand correctly, there will be a hard choice between offensive Scourge and defensive/support Scourge. Placing a shade elsewhere will have more risk so Scourge will need an escort if it wants to perform any sort of ranged offense or defense.

    I like the increased scaling, too. Barrier-sharing will definitely cost dps but may also become more effective when built for it. The suggestion there are more changes to come is also a good sign. Death Magic changes could strengthen group support in core and the elite specializations, potentially improving barriers when sacrificing even more dps or adding some other type of support. Boons come to mind.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    The thing is, you have to place shade because of sadistic searing+getting to 100% condi duration. Its a big dps loss if you dont. without placing shade makes the class a melee condi class with low dps. And i remember they said its a ranged hybrid support class from its introduction. Idk, the changes seem very rushed and not given much thought.

    Unless they also change sadistic searing and give free ~15% condi duration these changes will delete pve scg

    Does a range hybrid support spec need to deal competitive damage? I know that it would hurt in PvE but look at the druid for example, except for it's ability to give might, the spec is totally wasted be it for damage or support.

    The scourge is supposed to capitalize on boon corruption to deal damage. Would this be hard to open up some space for this purpose to shine in PvE? Nope, it's just a matter of giving a perma stack of vigor to mobs with defiance/breakbar/undomitable (something that they can already do on training golem). From there they can totally create a "viable" PvE condi spec (even if it mean increasing the number of torment stacks that punishment skills apply when they corrupt a boon in PvE).

    NB.: From my point of view, sadistic searing is and have always been a badly designed trait. Sure it give the player a reason to use F1 but is it really worth? I mean we are talking about 1-2 stacks of burn.

    No spec is designed with just 1 role in mind. Scg was introduced as dps support. You could lean towards dps but still give small cleanses and barrier to group on the tradeoff that you ALREADY DIDNT had competitive raw damage. But this change is literally challenging the core concept of scg as it removes the support while doing damage element completely from dps scg.

    Also yes those burns were very important because 1. They are burn and 2. Sadistic searing is used very frequently and there is no other skill in necromancers arsenal that increase dps that could replace it.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Btw. My fav trait in game which is not used in literally any gamemode "feed from corruption" got nerfed indirectly with corrupts nerf. I hope they realise its not useful in scg and move it somewhere in core traitlines in the next year or two.

  • MethaneGas.8357MethaneGas.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    This is the only way we can still change something. The rework is done now anyway, but at least we can fight for a "dismiss all sand shades" button.

    Agreed that we will need a "remove all shades" button so you can quickly swap between ranged DPS and melee DPS. With these changes, there's literally no way to defend yourself from melee attackers, which is ridiculous.

    Incoming salty ranting in 3, 2, 1....
    In PvP, if you want to contribute to a team fight, you drop your shades from a distance.... but now, as soon as you drop your shades far away, the enemy will just focus you down because you won't have cleanse from F2, won't have barrier from F3, won't be able to fear melee attackers with F4, won't be able to pressure melee attackers with F5..... in other words, you'll be a defenseless bag of bones. This change is so.... backwards..... :#
    I guess you COULD drop a shade on top of yourself so you have one in the distance and one on melee, but that's still ridiculous and clunky. You can't possibly kite around a shade and survive. You can't afford to sit still in PvP - you gotta move and kite as a Necro. It's literally the only way to survive. And kiting is impossible if you have to stay on top of your shades. So you have two options - kite away from your shades but sacrifice F2,F3,F4,F5, OR stay on top of your shade like a sitting duck but keep F2,F3,F4,F5. Truly something that will separate good players from bad /sarcasm
    On the other hand, if you take Sand Savant so you got a nice, big shade to kite around, you're also screwed because you have only one shade. As soon as you drop it far away from you, you're screwed. If you re-cast it on top of yourself (assuming you don't get instakilled before then), the cooldown is so long that eventually you won't be able to keep re-positioning your shade to keep up with your kitting. Eh..... I can't see a way around this to make it manageable without having a "remove all shades" button.

    The barrier reduction is also ridiculous. The whole thing about scourge is to have barrier instead of deathshroud/reaper shroud. Now that barrier will be even smaller, and this change will mostly affect Curses Scourge, which is already harder and more squishy than Blood Scourge!!!
    Couldn't they just reduce the amount of barrier that allies get while not changing the barrier that the Necro gets? (so the Necro keeps its defensive capabilities but has reduced support?) -_- Logic? No? Okay.... :astonished:

    The only upside is - this might make core Necro <3 or Reaper a better option in PvP because the alternative has been gutted like a piglet. So I guess it's not all bad, just the fact that scourge will suck.

    TL:DR: *ugly cry *

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:
    This is ULTRA CRINGE LEVEL of clunky.

    Even for ANet, and even for necro standards.

    I think the best way for PVP is TO NEVER place a shade untill you already win a fight and are clearing downed bodies. Pathetic bad design.

    it just means if you want to cover the point and yourself you now have to place 2 shades one on the point and one on yourself or simply move yourself to your placed shade. its different it not exactly game breaking but it is forcing you to use more resources or not and just be the shade yourself.

    Perhaps though this is part of their overall plans with what they have cooked up for death magic.

    I understand what it means.

    And you use words like "JUST" pretty casually.
    Just drop a nuke.
    Just nerf it to oblivion. Just make it even stronger in WWW where its main problem, while making it even glassier and clunkier in PVP where its almost unplayable.

    And then you still have trust in Anet, in necro, and in DeathMagic getting reworked for 3rd time ?

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    The thing is, you have to place shade because of sadistic searing+getting to 100% condi duration. Its a big dps loss if you dont. without placing shade makes the class a melee condi class with low dps. And i remember they said its a ranged hybrid support class from its introduction. Idk, the changes seem very rushed and not given much thought.

    Unless they also change sadistic searing and give free ~15% condi duration these changes will delete pve scg

    Does a range hybrid support spec need to deal competitive damage? I know that it would hurt in PvE but look at the druid for example, except for it's ability to give might, the spec is totally wasted be it for damage or support.

    But ranger has a spec that is still pretty good in dealing dmg.
    Both power and Condi are in a pretty decent or even good spot. Cause they still can bring spirits.

    Necro may have a spec, that does 10% less dmg than ranger on the golem, but in raid scenario, the gap is much higher and Necro doesn't give unique dmg buffs

    Overall Necro seems not to be allowed to do anywhere near the dmg, other classes do.
    Even when druid was mainly a support spec, you could play it as condi.
    Also warrior is considered a support, but does more dmg than Necro (condi and power)
    And if I remember correctly, warrior even gets a (in my opinion totally unnecessary) dmg buff for allies on warhorn

    The scourge is supposed to capitalize on boon corruption to deal damage. Would this be hard to open up some space for this purpose to shine in PvE? Nope, it's just a matter of giving a perma stack of vigor to mobs with defiance/breakbar/undomitable (something that they can already do on training golem). From there they can totally create a "viable" PvE condi spec (even if it mean increasing the number of torment stacks that punishment skills apply when they corrupt a boon in PvE).

    NB.: From my point of view, sadistic searing is and have always been a badly designed trait. Sure it give the player a reason to use F1 but is it really worth? I mean we are talking about 1-2 stacks of burn.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    But ranger has a spec that is still pretty good in dealing dmg.
    Both power and Condi are in a pretty decent or even good spot. Cause they still can bring spirits.

    Necro may have a spec, that does 10% less dmg than ranger on the golem, but in raid scenario, the gap is much higher and Necro doesn't give unique dmg buffs

    Overall Necro seems not to be allowed to do anywhere near the dmg, other classes do.
    Even when druid was mainly a support spec, you could play it as condi.
    Also warrior is considered a support, but does more dmg than Necro (condi and power)
    And if I remember correctly, warrior even gets a (in my opinion totally unnecessary) dmg buff for allies on warhorn

    The thing is that warrior is designed around the idea that it play with "power". Increasing it's own power and it's allies power. The whole design of this profession revolve around this idea since launch. This is something that led ANet to reduce the warrior overall coefficient in the early days of the game because it made them the absolute king of PvE (Before the elementalist era). The issue is that it made the warrior an absolute trash in PvP, which led to balance in "numbers" that slowly put the warrior closer to it's release strength. Which is why despite their PvE support they deal an astounding level of damage now. The very existence of their support make them impossible to really balance in the game.

    The necromancer is in a different position. The necromancer is designed to make use of conditions, changing boons into conditions and conditions into boons, gathering conditions on himself and sending them on it's foes. Similarly to the warrior, it make the necromancer extremly difficult to balance for all gamemode throught numbers. However in case of the necromancer it's because PvE isn't designed to make use of the necromancer's design.

    The warrior's tools make him very strong in PvE and below average in PvP while the necromancer's tools make him strong in PvP and below average in PvE. Since ANet try it's best to address PvP in priority and a lot of players think that it's how it should be, the current situation is logical. The thing is that the necromancer need PvE to change for him to become balanced. The warrior on another hand is an impossible equation, it just cannot be "balanced" unless you remove from him the unique tools that give extra power which would go against it's design.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    What they intend to do does not look wrong to me. If I understand correctly, there will be a hard choice between offensive Scourge and defensive/support Scourge. Placing a shade elsewhere will have more risk so Scourge will need an escort if it wants to perform any sort of ranged offense or defense.

    I like the increased scaling, too. Barrier-sharing will definitely cost dps but may also become more effective when built for it. The suggestion there are more changes to come is also a good sign. Death Magic changes could strengthen group support in core and the elite specializations, potentially improving barriers when sacrificing even more dps or adding some other type of support. Boons come to mind.

    Their intention made sense, the execution is what was stupid. You just cast f3 first now and provide both 10 target damage and 10 target support since the f3 affects 10 around you when you dont have a shade up. Instead of providing 100% barrier to 5 people, it's now 70% to 10. Multiple scourge run in every group, so this is a big net gain in both support and damage.

    You could even just use shades in melee with harbingers shroud for a huge increase in output. It used to be that HS only activated around the scourge and the shade after 3s, but since you couldn't move the shade without disrupting HS it only landed if you could make people stand in it. Now you can cast it while moving into melee range and it will follow you if you don't have a shade active, so 10 target HS is now doable. That's even more corrupts, barrier, and spike damage lmao

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    What they intend to do does not look wrong to me. If I understand correctly, there will be a hard choice between offensive Scourge and defensive/support Scourge. Placing a shade elsewhere will have more risk so Scourge will need an escort if it wants to perform any sort of ranged offense or defense.

    I like the increased scaling, too. Barrier-sharing will definitely cost dps but may also become more effective when built for it. The suggestion there are more changes to come is also a good sign. Death Magic changes could strengthen group support in core and the elite specializations, potentially improving barriers when sacrificing even more dps or adding some other type of support. Boons come to mind.

    Their intention made sense, the execution is what was stupid. You just cast f3 first now and provide both 10 target damage and 10 target support since the f3 affects 10 around you when you dont have a shade up. Instead of providing 100% barrier to 5 people, it's now 70% to 10. Multiple scourge run in every group, so this is a big net gain in both support and damage.

    You could even just use shades in melee with harbingers shroud for a huge increase in output. It used to be that HS only activated around the scourge and the shade after 3s, but since you couldn't move the shade without disrupting HS it only landed if you could make people stand in it. Now you can cast it while moving into melee range and it will follow you if you don't have a shade active, so 10 target HS is now doable. That's even more corrupts, barrier, and spike damage lmao

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    What they intend to do does not look wrong to me. If I understand correctly, there will be a hard choice between offensive Scourge and defensive/support Scourge. Placing a shade elsewhere will have more risk so Scourge will need an escort if it wants to perform any sort of ranged offense or defense.

    I like the increased scaling, too. Barrier-sharing will definitely cost dps but may also become more effective when built for it. The suggestion there are more changes to come is also a good sign. Death Magic changes could strengthen group support in core and the elite specializations, potentially improving barriers when sacrificing even more dps or adding some other type of support. Boons come to mind.

    Their intention made sense, the execution is what was stupid. You just cast f3 first now and provide both 10 target damage and 10 target support since the f3 affects 10 around you when you dont have a shade up. Instead of providing 100% barrier to 5 people, it's now 70% to 10. Multiple scourge run in every group, so this is a big net gain in both support and damage.

    You could even just use shades in melee with harbingers shroud for a huge increase in output. It used to be that HS only activated around the scourge and the shade after 3s, but since you couldn't move the shade without disrupting HS it only landed if you could make people stand in it. Now you can cast it while moving into melee range and it will follow you if you don't have a shade active, so 10 target HS is now doable. That's even more corrupts, barrier, and spike damage lmao

    HS sound bursty but only afk ppl will stand in it, maybe it requires more coordination like stealth blast and cc which are fine to me. So that now people need to work together properly in order to land the massive dps.

  • @Josiah.2967 said:
    PVE - Nerf
    WvW - Buff
    PVP - Delete

    I am so confused.

    How is it nerf in pve ?

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭

    this fixes nothing.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    What they intend to do does not look wrong to me. If I understand correctly, there will be a hard choice between offensive Scourge and defensive/support Scourge. Placing a shade elsewhere will have more risk so Scourge will need an escort if it wants to perform any sort of ranged offense or defense.

    I like the increased scaling, too. Barrier-sharing will definitely cost dps but may also become more effective when built for it. The suggestion there are more changes to come is also a good sign. Death Magic changes could strengthen group support in core and the elite specializations, potentially improving barriers when sacrificing even more dps or adding some other type of support. Boons come to mind.

    Their intention made sense, the execution is what was stupid. You just cast f3 first now and provide both 10 target damage and 10 target support since the f3 affects 10 around you when you dont have a shade up. Instead of providing 100% barrier to 5 people, it's now 70% to 10. Multiple scourge run in every group, so this is a big net gain in both support and damage.

    You could even just use shades in melee with harbingers shroud for a huge increase in output. It used to be that HS only activated around the scourge and the shade after 3s, but since you couldn't move the shade without disrupting HS it only landed if you could make people stand in it. Now you can cast it while moving into melee range and it will follow you if you don't have a shade active, so 10 target HS is now doable. That's even more corrupts, barrier, and spike damage lmao

    The point is that the feedback was saying that the issue was coverage which is what Anet adressed. The fact that it will create tons of foreseeable issues afterward just give them something to chew on in the next months.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I foresee they will nerf things further with little to no compensation and we will see scourge end up with little to no dmg and little to no sustain.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2019

    @MethaneGas.8357 said:

    @Serenity.6304 said:
    This is the only way we can still change something. The rework is done now anyway, but at least we can fight for a "dismiss all sand shades" button.

    Agreed that we will need a "remove all shades" button so you can quickly swap between ranged DPS and melee DPS. With these changes, there's literally no way to defend yourself from melee attackers, which is ridiculous.

    Incoming salty ranting in 3, 2, 1....
    In PvP, if you want to contribute to a team fight, you drop your shades from a distance.... but now, as soon as you drop your shades far away, the enemy will just focus you down because you won't have cleanse from F2, won't have barrier from F3, won't be able to fear melee attackers with F4, won't be able to pressure melee attackers with F5..... in other words, you'll be a defenseless bag of bones. This change is so.... backwards..... :#
    I guess you COULD drop a shade on top of yourself so you have one in the distance and one on melee, but that's still ridiculous and clunky. You can't possibly kite around a shade and survive. You can't afford to sit still in PvP - you gotta move and kite as a Necro. It's literally the only way to survive. And kiting is impossible if you have to stay on top of your shades. So you have two options - kite away from your shades but sacrifice F2,F3,F4,F5, OR stay on top of your shade like a sitting duck but keep F2,F3,F4,F5. Truly something that will separate good players from bad /sarcasm
    On the other hand, if you take Sand Savant so you got a nice, big shade to kite around, you're also screwed because you have only one shade. As soon as you drop it far away from you, you're screwed. If you re-cast it on top of yourself (assuming you don't get instakilled before then), the cooldown is so long that eventually you won't be able to keep re-positioning your shade to keep up with your kitting. Eh..... I can't see a way around this to make it manageable without having a "remove all shades" button.

    The barrier reduction is also ridiculous. The whole thing about scourge is to have barrier instead of deathshroud/reaper shroud. Now that barrier will be even smaller, and this change will mostly affect Curses Scourge, which is already harder and more squishy than Blood Scourge!!!
    Couldn't they just reduce the amount of barrier that allies get while not changing the barrier that the Necro gets? (so the Necro keeps its defensive capabilities but has reduced support?) -_- Logic? No? Okay.... :astonished:

    The only upside is - this might make core Necro <3 or Reaper a better option in PvP because the alternative has been gutted like a piglet. So I guess it's not all bad, just the fact that scourge will suck.

    TL:DR: *ugly cry *

    Very good summary, thank you for posting it also in the other thread.
    Maybe they will rethink the rework for PvP, but I highly doubt it. All we can do is try. I will try scourge ofc in unranked first with different strategies. Like playing only melee and then placing all the shades when I am 100 % sure they will hit (like for downed cleave), or playing ranged and ALWAYS using the no port spots (as a scourge you should using them right now anyhow) and kiting MUCH EARLIER away when get pressured...
    If I feel like I don't do any significant dmg or get killed immediately because I don't have any self-defense anymore (this is my prediction), I will switch to another class. For PvP I can only recommend playing at least two different classes (or specs, as you said) equally so that you still have something to play with when such a nerf resulting in deletion of a spec in PvP hits us.

    ~ Miyu Chan / Fyora ♥

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