Can WE FINALLY PLEASE get a better Dwon 3 for warrior?

The entire last instance of this episode is yet one more example of how warriors are crippled by having such a horrible down 3. With any other class I can move around or do SOMETHING when down, but with warrior ALL I can do is 1 (and the occupational 2) to try and get myself up with the little Regen I get from hits. If I use 3 in a boss fight, I WILL just die anyway because ONLY WARRIOR needs to get kills to get any utility out of a down skill.

Guard 3 is useless, you either let health drop to use 3 then 4, or you cancel 4 to use 3 then 4 again, or just use 4, all are the same speed, only difference is if you want to give surrounding allies a small still useless heal.

I love warrior downstate 3. It's frequently useful in pve as so many mobs melt so fast, and it can be downright delightful as a roamer in wvw. The fact that it is not particularly useful in this one example isn't really a very good reason to replace it . . .

@avey.4201 said:Guard 3 is useless, you either let health drop to use 3 then 4, or you cancel 4 to use 3 then 4 again, or just use 4, all are the same speed, only difference is if you want to give surrounding allies a small still useless heal.

It's useful in pvp/wvw only from my experience... same with warrior. Imagine if they they just split how those skills function entirely between pve + pvp....

@Queen Anastasia.7103 said:

@avey.4201 said:Guard 3 is useless, you either let health drop to use 3 then 4, or you cancel 4 to use 3 then 4 again, or just use 4, all are the same speed, only difference is if you want to give surrounding allies a small still useless heal.

I think a lot of wvw folks would rather just see downstate eliminated entirely, though I am not among those . . .

If I read between the lines of OP, the actual complaint is that Warrior down 3 is only useful when you're downed with weaker mobs around. It is infact woefully inefficient against damage sponges, since you cant really land a kill with the amount of time you're given. In my opinion, that's not useless, just balanced.

In WvW the skill can be used to finished a weakened WvW oponent to regain your liveliness, in PvE the target is generally low difficulty monsters that Peppers the map.

Keep in mind that no other class get the advantage of having a player's full damage available to guarantee a rally. Warrior is the only one to be able to use all it's damage to that effect. The problem with it (being shot down before you can land a kill, or being kited around until the skill runs out) is no different than other classes. It's a matter of timing your skill use : using it as soon as it's available is often not the ideal time. You want to use it at the point you're almost running out of life, thus rallying using a heal and going back on one last attack, which is where 1. your enemy least expect it, and 2. after you whistle down their health with down 1 and 2.

How were you even getting downed in the last fight in the first place?

If warrior complain about their down 3... may I introduce you to down 2 and 3 engineer?

@avey.4201 said:Guard 3 is useless, you either let health drop to use 3 then 4, or you cancel 4 to use 3 then 4 again, or just use 4, all are the same speed, only difference is if you want to give surrounding allies a small still useless heal.

Guard 3 is great! It allows you to heal while attacked (a situation where 4 is useless). Can't count how many times it saved me.Additionally, guard 3 is a symbol, thus it synergies with any symbol trait you have.

Warrior 3 is clearly inferior as it is only decent when traited (nobody takes it) and when weak foes are around. Moreover, it doesn't always work (even when traited) in some personal stories. Effectively, I have already noticed that some mobs don't trigger on death effect.

@Boogiepop Void.6473 said:The entire last instance of this episode is yet one more example of how warriors are crippled by having such a horrible down 3. With any other class I can move around or do SOMETHING when down, but with warrior ALL I can do is 1 (and the occupational 2) to try and get myself up with the little Regen I get from hits. If I use 3 in a boss fight, I WILL just die anyway because ONLY WARRIOR needs to get kills to get any utility out of a down skill.

Do you even play other classes? Which one has such great downstate skills that warrior suddenly has to have his buffed? :D

@Gop.8713 said:I love warrior downstate 3. It's frequently useful in pve as so many mobs melt so fast, and it can be downright delightful as a roamer in wvw. The fact that it is not particularly useful in this one example isn't really a very good reason to replace it . . .

Ok. And the same applies to this thead -just because you sometimes can't rally off the boss, doesn't mean it's useless.

@Substance E.4852 said:How were you even getting downed in the last fight in the first place?

That's also a good point, if he got downed in this boss fight then he has some bigger problems than blaming a downed skill for being too weak.

Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

And it usually applies to some weaker enemies, soooo.... if you know that then don't spam vengeance just because it's off cooldown and press 1 to kill something like any other class?

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

Changing 25% to 100% and "balancing" it by reducing duration by only 33% and then adding a damage buff on top of that...? Weird definition of balance imo.

I think all it needs is to put you in downed state again when it ends (with a greater penalty so). It could be OP for pvp, so maybe reduce duration to 10s.Currently, without trait, it's so much a lottery you are better spamming 1.

@Substance E.4852 said:How were you even getting downed in the last fight in the first place?

10 second chain stuns are not conducive to survival when you are soloing the story. You eventually run out of or miss a dodge at some point.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

Well nobody takes the trait now, so... give them a reason to take it its obviously in need of a buff. The 100% chance to rally on Vengeance and the reduced duration suggestion is separate from the trait. The damage buff post rally on the trait was to provide a reason to take the trait. It could instead be like the Necro's trait where you do more damage while downed, and would count while Vengeance is active. Would THAT be better in you opinion?

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

I don't think buffing untraited vengeance would encourage anybody to pick the trait.My opinion is that Vengeance is already good enough and doesn't need buffing. OP claims that warrior downstate is lacking "because some classes have mobility". So from what I understand he's comparing a teleport or a dash with 15-20 second cooldown to having an ability to literally get up and use your skills and then he complains that the latter is worse because he can't "100-0" a boss to rally off of it. That's just an insane claim to begin with. Vengenace doesn't need and doesn't deserve a buff.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

That's you opinion on vengeance, but yeah using vengeance on a story boss is a no-no if what you want is to rally. Granted its better for getting the red bar down quicker in between respawning.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

Yes, it is just my opinion. As I said, I think OP is completely wrong on this one and suddenly using this thread as a propeller for throwing "ideas to buff it" without actually considering IF an WHY it would need to get buffed is an incorrect take on the class balance.But still, feel free to explain to me in what way vengeance deserves getting buffed when compared (or even not compared, w/e) to other classes' downed skills.

Vengeance should be replaced with god mode, which gives 1000% damage bonus, damage immunity, and refreshes every 10 seconds until you've killed everything long enough to get out of combat, at which point you rally and summons a metal band to give you access to the old Warrior headbang emote. :P

@starlinvf.1358 said:Vengeance should be replaced with god mode, which gives 1000% damage bonus, damage immunity, and refreshes every 10 seconds until you've killed everything long enough to get out of combat, at which point you rally and summons a metal band to give you access to the old Warrior headbang emote. :P

Bring back the headbang!

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

Feel free so state why it doesn't.

Also, in regards to the trait, would the fact alone that nobody takes it be reason enough to justify changing the trait? It is, considering that Anet does change, buff, and nerf traits when they find them being underutilized or overutilized. They may be very slow about it, but they do take that into consideration.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Not to mention that Down 3 won't rally off of the same things you can rally off of from regular downstate.

Vengeance should be a 100% chance to rally by default if you kill something by the end of the timer, balance this by reducing the duration to 10s from 15s. Let Vengeful Return still add the extra health and endurance on rally, but also a damage increase of some percentage for some number of seconds after the rally.

I... I already did.

Also, in regards to the trait, would the fact alone that nobody takes it be reason enough to justify changing the trait? It is

Yes, it might be and I never said it isn't, it seems you forgot what you wrote and what I answered to that. Also "changed" doesn't mean "buffed". iirc what you proposed was buffing both untraited vengeance and the trait. And we circle back to: vengeance doesn't deserve to be buffed, because it's already a strong downed skill. AND again, OP is trying to compare it to the 15-20 second cd teleport or dash skill. I'm sure that would help him with the boss, when he failed dodging the telegraphed skills before getting downed.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I love warrior downstate 3. It's frequently useful in pve as so many mobs melt so fast, and it can be downright delightful as a roamer in wvw. The fact that it is not particularly useful in this one example isn't really a very good reason to replace it . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I love warrior downstate 3. It's frequently useful in pve as so many mobs melt so fast, and it can be downright delightful as a roamer in wvw. The fact that it is not particularly useful in this one example isn't really a very good reason to replace it . . .

I've read your post after the guardian one ("guard 3 is useless") and somehow replaced warrior with guardian in your post as well. As it is, it really doesn't make sense, sorry :p

@Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

@"Substance E.4852" said:How were you even getting downed in the last fight in the first place?

???

I literally just stood inside of it and auto'ed it to death

Just jump when you see the shockwaves

That's been an obvious "do x now" thing since they updated Tequila Sunrise years ago

Vengeance is lit famalam