Offense/attack instacast skills should not exist

Give me one reason why they should. Stunbreaks, utility, and defensives should be instacast where applicable, but something used for offense (gap closing attack, etc) should not.

I'm gonna go ahead and get this out of the way:

Steal is not getting a cast time.

Many things that are in gw2 should not exist in competitive pvp games. The reason they do is because this game is balanced and designed around pve.

Which is a shame because to combat has so much potential.

repo

they can be fine or not, just like anything else.

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Give me one reason why they should. Stunbreaks, utility, and defensives should be instacast where applicable, but something used for offense (gap closing attack, etc) should not.

You didn't exactly state a reason why they shouldn't exist either.Here's how argumentation works: You provide the argument. You then provide a reason for the argument. Then people can counter your argument, point out logical fallacies in your argument, or agree with it and provide further evidence to back up your argument.

It'd be a lot easier to Balance the game without instacasts. Those kinds of mini-skill, calling down lightning when hitting foe with crit is just pure nonesense.

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Give me one reason why they should. Stunbreaks, utility, and defensives should be instacast where applicable, but something used for offense (gap closing attack, etc) should not.

Give me one reason why they should not? Because you can't react based on visuals then? There are certain rotations on every spec.. just like you can predict that 99% of the time a warrior with greatsword will cast 100 Blades after he knocks you down with Bulls Charge or something and after he used all his stun breaks he pops off Rampage and immediately boulders or seismic leaps at you.

Also adding cast time to instant offense skills is probably not going to do much for you. When are those situations where you get jumped on realistically? Probably while you are involved in a team fight. When the dude's sneaking up on you or comes from a weird angle/above or something, you wouldn't even notice whether his skill is instant or if he sat there behind the boulder or pillar for half a second before leaping at you.

Did you for example really notice the cast time nerf of Rev's Shackling Wave? I don't honestly if I fight against Rev. Rev's usually just engage in a (team) fight where they can have an easy target that's probably already exhausted its kit and therefore can't do shit against them. That's probably also the reason why everybody percieved Rev as broken af pre-nerfs honestly*. Now, the day the Shackling Wave cast time nerf came I stopped playing Rev because the additional 0.5s threw me off SOO MUCH. Especially since Rev relies on dodging a lot I just kept canceling SW and it felt so clunky and slow playing it.

I would agree with giving insta casts a cast time if the majority of skills had them since I think it would be a complete guessing game at this point. But I honestly can't think about another insta cast gap closer than Thief Steal, Guard Sword#2 (or 3?) and Guard Judge's Intervention if I'm honest. And imo that's not even worth arguing about. Steal is like the single most useful tool a thief can bring to any fight, mainly for the boon rip/share and instant daze. Giving steal even 1/4s cooldown would completely kill thief tbh, not that thieves are in a very good spot anyway. Just like mesmer thief can be as bad as you want it, it will still be percieved as a cancerous class because of the playstyle no matter what.And as for guardian sword teleport.... It's the most obvious engage ever. 99% of all guards with sword will spam that skill button while running towards you until they are in reach, it's unbelievably predictable. And this is probably the only case where you could actually counterplay it so I don't really think it's necessary to nerf that either.It's also not like those skills are heavy bursts or anything, steal for example barely does damage and even this only when you use the Mug trait, otherwise it's literally no damage at all.

@DoomNexus.5324 said:

Guard Sword#2 (or 3?)And as for guardian sword teleport.... It's the most obvious engage ever. 99% of all guards with sword will spam that skill button while running towards you until they are in reach, it's unbelievably predictable. And this is probably the only case where you could actually counterplay it so I don't really think it's necessary to nerf that either.

Sword 2. And while it appears to be an insta-cast, you can't actually use it mid-animation IIRC because it has its own animation.It will, however, cancel other skills when used. Try to drop a trap on DH, immediately use Sword 2 and it'll just not do the trap.

Depends on the effect of the skill. No one likes getting one shot, but many builds around that play style have gotten nerfed.

People really try to make this game a wow clone, lol what's next? players should go static and stand still while casting or using skills? gtfo here and go practice. This isn't wow and will never be.

@kraai.7265 said:People really try to make this game a wow clone, lol what's next? players should go static and stand still while casting or using skills? gtfo here and go practice. This isn't wow and will never be.

^No offensive instant skills will kill comboing and for that dumb down the game. The important thing is, that instant skills should not do much (offensive stuff) on their own, only when they need to be used with other (not instant) skills for combos to have remarkable impact they are balanced. A lot of instant stuff ( Fresh Air, Mantra of Pain to name 2 examples) is too rewarding by its own for that it is instant. Another problem are too many dmg multiplier which can be stacked too well. They can turn basically balanced skills like Mindwrack into op instant 5k+ no clone bombs. I would prefer to let dmg multiplier to runes/sigils only and dmg traits reworked into something more active, so it is impossible to stack several dmg multiplier like crazy. And ofc offensive instant skills should never be unblockable (looking at Daredevil Steal... )

@bravan.3876 said:

@kraai.7265 said:People really try to make this game a wow clone, lol what's next? players should go static and stand still while casting or using skills? gtfo here and go practice. This isn't wow and will never be.

game was dumbed down enough already, as a 5 years old player, i feel pof ruined the experience for my making every class so spammy or braindead, it's just stupid to try to play more interesting builds such as pre disastrous rework chrono, or gs core guardian/longbow dh.

I feel what you are saying, and i agree at some point, but the problem for me is not about traits or specific skills, because as you can tell some skills or entire builds wouldn't work withou some trait interactions (power mesmer is best example, with no domination trait line you lose half the dmg)

the problem i see is the huge power creep that started with hot release, classes do way too much damage, but also have way too much sustain, and passive defense, so if they lower dmg overall, fights would last for hours, i think they should actually rework everything, mobility so no classes can escape every single fight they are losing, or reset fights, passive sustain so players have to actually time and think their skills, specially defensive ones, and then overall damage so no class insta kill other players in unfun or unfair ways.

Some people would not understand how op these skills(insta cast range bursts) are unless they played classes like warrior.the likes of fresh air can take away half of warrior's HP within 1 second from 900 range away and warrior would be powerless to fight against it.and only classes with the same op options like "teleport" "stealth" would be hard counters to fresh air.

@"Lighter.5631" said:Some people would not understand how op these skills(insta cast range bursts) are unless they played classes like warrior.the likes of fresh air can take away half of warrior's HP within 1 second from 900 range away and warrior would be powerless to fight against it.and only classes with the same op options like "teleport" "stealth" would be hard counters to fresh air.

To be fair, warrior has some of the best traits and low cooldowns to make up for it. And let's be honest, their cast times aren't that bad, safe for a few skills like GS4 and D2.

Just another thread to complain about certain classes that are meant to do high damage.

Fresh air maybe a gimmick, but their burst is accompanied with laughable defense and low escape potential.

Yeah these nerf post are getting ridiculous, almost seems like a lot of them are noobs and just haven't learned to play fully yet. A class or spec wrecks them a few times and what ever skill or mechanic is responsible deserves a nerf it its OP post lmao.

Sword 2 on Core S/D Thief was my primary target, but Mantras (including Firebrand), Fresh Air, and near insta-casts (hint: quickness) count as well. Reason: our reaction time isn't fast enough to register these attacks and the skill floor for newer players is too high to attract a new audience. So. If removing Quickness and Slow from Conquest is possible, make it happen. Again this is to help players want to play Conquest.

S/d core thief is not OP and if anything slightly underperforming when talking power s/d not condi which deserve a slight nerf. Sw2 has existed since thief has and had little complaints through 7 yrs until its condi DD version surfaced. Los would be the only reasonable nerf sw2 should see if any at all as I can see why no Los would fit thiefs low sustain ambush playstyle

The game was made with instant offensive skills in mind. Some damage just lands right away if you identify a split second of vulnerability. On the other hand, you can also anticipate a spike made out of mostly instant casts, and evade everything with just 1 dodge.

Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring) not to mention a huge amout of work. No game studio would ever put huge amount of work hours into some project that yields nothing.

If your problem is 1 or 2 skills in particular, you can argue about those skills, maybe they are overperforming. But as far as the concept of instant offensive skills goes... it absolutely has a place in this game.

@Bazsi.2734 said:Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring)

Holy hell how do people think that actual skill based combat would be boring? How is having no reactable elements to damage a positive portion of this game in any remote sense? It also completely invalidates the weakest boon you can provide in this game, aegis. I had a really interesting fight vs a holo the other day where he went into prime light, i popped aegis, but his fucking particle accelerator instant cast super high velocity ability broke the aegis before the prime light beam. Garbage gameplay removing counterplay ability. If anything, instant cast damage abilities lead to piano playing spam combat where using them on CD is braindead obvious (see scourge).

That they give instant-cast abilities to stealth classes is also a fucking crime. Dropping 60+% of your hp and being CC'd because a quick combination of instant cast abilites is not good gameplay. The best you can do is randomly dodge and hope to god you get the timing right on the 6+s of stealth.

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring)

um....prime light beam is unblockable anyway, it wouldn't have mattered if they had used particle accelerator or not. Aegis is not the counter, dodging is.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prime_Light_Beam

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring)

Unfortunately Prime Light is unblockable so aegis wouldn't have saved you (1 min cooldown too). but then again, holos are just overperforming in general.

@Bazsi.2734 said:Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring)

Disagree: see For Honor, Overwatch, LoL, most popular PvP games in general really....

Most of these games have long gone away from instant cast and broken stealth (see Evelynn during the first year or so of LoL) and the few times they exist, they are usually weak or a utility ability (see the amount of times they have had to rework Ryze (like 6 times by now?) due to having instant cast root, which they have finally taken away with the lastest patch and replaced it with having to first land a setup skill that has travel and animation time, which gives a very short lived debuff that ONLY THEN can you land the "instant" root on the enemy).

I can go on plenty more of changes, like how stealth works in WoW and the inability of any class to 100 --> 0 you within the duration of a CC skill, or how For Honor prides itself in having a reactive game play full of mindgames and opportunities to counterattack, etc etc...

Different games, sure, but notice how there seems to be a coorelation between popularity of a PvP and the ability of the game to display the player's skills, rather than their choice of class/build they play.

I mean, imagine being able to kill a person with 2.4k toughness and 18k hp from 1500 range and stealthed (and having the tools to remove the only thing that threaten them; revealed) all within the duration of a daze: (might not be "instant cast" but when it comes from stealth and that far away while having a extremely small window for reaction, it might as well be instant)

@"Bazsi.2734" said:The game was made with instant offensive skills in mind. Some damage just lands right away if you identify a split second of vulnerability. On the other hand, you can also anticipate a spike made out of mostly instant casts, and evade everything with just 1 dodge.

Just giving everything a cast time would create a more clear rock-paper-scissors system, and also slow the game down (therefore would make it boring) not to mention a huge amout of work. No game studio would ever put huge amount of work hours into some project that yields nothing.

If your problem is 1 or 2 skills in particular, you can argue about those skills, maybe they are overperforming. But as far as the concept of instant offensive skills goes... it absolutely has a place in this game.

insta cast is the one that create rock paper scissor, because there's no skill play, either u have the tool to fight against it or you don'tit's actually not anticipation, it's called random dodge and luck.there's no way to predict insta cast because it can be used at any time, unless it's melee range.if your insta cast is getting "predicted" you are playing insta cast wrong.specially you can use them easily when enemy is mid animation since you know it's insta cast.insta cast would acceptable if it's chip damage.but my lightning strike alone crit 4k on necro, idk how that works.

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:Some people would not understand how op these skills(insta cast range bursts) are unless they played classes like warrior.the likes of fresh air can take away half of warrior's HP within 1 second from 900 range away and warrior would be powerless to fight against it.and only classes with the same op options like "teleport" "stealth" would be hard counters to fresh air.

doesn't really matter, it's skill still only good against what it's already decent against and nothing to do against what it can not. like it can beat holo, but it cant beat FA, it's the real rock paper scissor for warrior.