Institute GvG maps immediately.

Been playing WvW since early release, and have never really stopped. The only thing I don't care for is the Fight Club mentality of certain commanders, who no longer care about the Capture the Flag mechanics of WvW. I keep hearing the same old dull witted response from these same commanders..."We get nothing extra...nobody cares to PPT." <----And they infected some of their server or player base with this idea. "I don't care about WINNING, all I care about are the fights and the bags...." I'm sorry anet. I'd probably play WvW until I was the last player loading into WvW and find that there is nothing left to fight. But when commanders DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINNING....then the format no longer serves any purpose at all. Might be time to start up GvG maps so we can get rid of those commanders, because it's just not working anymore. I can not FOLLLOW any commander on any server no matter how down or up the ladder they are in tiers....if they no longer care about Winning. And their mentality that they don't care about winning infects their player base.

Lets just face it Anet. Quite a few of the major guilds in WvW, no longer care about PPT, score, or Winning. It's turned into one big Fight Club format, where all they want to do is hunt down other large forces to go Zerg vs. Zerg. It may be time to institute a Guild vs. Guild format for Guildwars 2. WvW would still be there, but WvW is a format where WvW players do want to PPT, do want to win. The Fight Club commanders of the major guilds, no longer want to win. They don't care about PPT. All they care about is the fight. And you can easily give that to them in GvG. Implement a GvG format for the Fight Club guilds so WvW can get back to "winning".

GvG doesn't even exist. The amount of actual people that care for it is way too low.

I went from PvP to WvW solely for roamer/small scale fights so a comm had nothing to do with it :trollface:

Its easy to zerg to win, it takes more skill and determination and strategy to roam/small scale and win.

Pugmanders still do what they can with what they've got. Most of the time that means new players and PvE players.

Not that they are letting the fully upgraded WP keeps go on purpose but that it's just useless to fight, useless to build siege..

Did see alot of that "who cares" mentality from GvG guild raids but they all left to pursue their fornite superstar dreams.

apparently pvdooring and siege wars are making ppl bored. prob why wvw has continued to decline over the years.

@KeyOrion.9506 said:"We get nothing extra...nobody cares to PPT."

And this already happens to reset. „We will lose the match-up, so we don't need the points.“.

So, just to make this clear:There are ppl, very experienced long-time hardcore players, that believe that we defend T3 structures „just for the points“. lul

It seems that the idea of fighting for objectives is too complex for some. And all those benefits that come from it, even if they're just „here for the fights and bags“.

I can make a long list, why ppl flip enemy keeps, defend own ones, scout, kill dollies, give roamers a squad slot from time to time, even if they are on a roamer build and not in voice chat . . .

. . . just a hind: its not for the points (primarily), it is, surprise, surprise, for the fights. To create fights, to force the enemy to fight, to thin out superior forces so you can fight them, to avoid excessive enemy siege wars, to stop enemy karma train / objective sniping etc.

@KeyOrion.9506 said:Might be time to start up GvG mapsabsolutely

They already implemented a GvG map. Nobody uses it.

@KeyOrion.9506 said:But when commanders DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINNING.The reason we commanders don't try to win the weekly match ups because there's no incentive to do so. Oh, if we win we get to fight Blackgate? Why would ANY server want to win then?

Ironically most fights are created in and around attacking and defending objectives. Most (if not all), these fight guilds, will not, and never have fought open field, they ran to structures and waited until they had at least 1.5 to 2x as many numbers. Reason being, they simply were never good enough. Over the years I ran with many of these guilds, and it wasn't about fights, it was about farming pugs (which they never really could do).

I don't think instituting GvG maps is going to make a difference anymore. As Blocki said, the amount of people that would actually be interested in it now would be extremely low. I do agree, if all these guilds still did exist, institute the GvG maps, let the groups who don't know how to fight, fight each other.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Ironically most fights are created in and around attacking and defending objectives. Most (if not all), these fight guilds, will not, and never have fought open field, they ran to structures and waited until they had at least 1.5 to 2x as many numbers. Reason being, they simply were never good enough. Over the years I ran with many of these guilds, and it wasn't about fights, it was about farming pugs (which they never really could do).

I don't think instituting GvG maps is going to make a difference anymore. As Blocki said, the amount of people that would actually be interested in it now would be extremely low. I do agree, if all these guilds still did exist, institute the GvG maps, let the groups who don't know how to fight, fight each other.

This makes no sense at all. Alone the point on how a guild waits infront of a structure until they have more ppl. How would that happen? Do ppl join that guild while they stand infront of that structure? No usually the defenders become more and more until they can overwhelm that guild.

And ive seen many guilds fight against other guilds or alot bigger public zergs in open field.

5 years too late.

There are 2 gvg arenas:

• obsidian sanctum arena for gvg in the match
• EotM Arena for gvg according to colors

That no one cares about winning the match is simply: no one can win a 24/7 match. It’s just a result of manpower in the link and determined by linking and transfers after linking.

@Dayra.7405 said:There are 2 gvg arenas:

• obsidian sanctum arena for gvg in the match

Where you can only GvG vs people in your current matchup.

• EotM Arena for gvg according to colors

Which is too small. Longest range skills cross that arena..

That no one cares about winning the match is simply: no one can win a 24/7 match. It’s just a result of manpower in the link and determined by linking and transfers after linking.

Not caring is one thing. Actively encouraging people to lose is another.

It’s been shown that when the numbers from opposite servers are there, BGs activity goes up....

Look at it this wayEveryone starts with supply > we go to take a tower > someone throws siege disables > stack and afk until siege is usable > hit gate 5-10 times > someone else throws siege disable > afk wait until siege is usable > finally break in > everyone inside drained supply and flees > kill lord, bad rewards > go take camps for supply > go take tower ...you get the idea.

People don't care about winning because winning is boring with awful rewards. It's actually more fun for a lot of people to just group up and go hunting for other groups to fight because it's fun to kill people, it's fun to watch high numbers, loot bags are fun, etc. If that means that half our map is being back capped, then so be it. You want people to care about winning, have some incentives for winning.

Today we had a pugmander and he's trying to get our server back in shape. He was friends with one of the guild leaders who are on a server we're facing this week. He agreed to fight us in EBG island with equal numbers, no BM. So, we spent an hour or 2 in discord with the commander learning how to fight, follow tag, etc. It was the most fun I've had in wvw all month, or for the past couple of months for that matter.

@Adamsdjr.1350 said:Look at it this wayEveryone starts with supply > we go to take a tower > someone throws siege disables > stack and afk until siege is usable > hit gate 5-10 times > someone else throws siege disable > afk wait until siege is usable > finally break in > everyone inside drained supply and flees > kill lord, bad rewards > go take camps for supply > go take tower ...you get the idea.

People don't care about winning because winning is boring with awful rewards. It's actually more fun for a lot of people to just group up and go hunting for other groups to fight because it's fun to kill people, it's fun to watch high numbers, loot bags are fun, etc. If that means that half our map is being back capped, then so be it. You want people to care about winning, have some incentives for winning.

Today we had a pugmander and he's trying to get our server back in shape. He was friends with one of the guild leaders who are on a server we're facing this week. He agreed to fight us in EBG island with equal numbers, no BM. So, we spent an hour or 2 in discord with the commander learning how to fight, follow tag, etc. It was the most fun I've had in wvw all month, or for the past couple of months for that matter.Not sure what you want to say. We already know that some ppl got bored of playing WvW and thus ruin the fun of others. Thats why this thread was made.

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:I went from PvP to WvW solely for roamer/small scale fights so a comm had nothing to do with it :trollface:

Its easy to zerg to win, it takes more skill and determination and strategy to roam/small scale and win.

The commanders wanted HIDDEN TAGS. You all have read the Forums. The commanders wanted hidden tags, to do GUILD related fights. They didn't want capture the flag, OR zerg vs. zerg. They wanted to go to specific areas, without being bothered by PUGS, in order to do their own thing. And that thing was to fight other guilds with the same like minded attitude. They wanted to come into a WvW and doing nothing but play Guild vs. Guild. And you seen those battles quite often. You know which Guilds specifically have fallen into the GvG format, on a WvW map. There is quite a few guilds that play small scale GvG within PvP, same can be said of large PvE guilds, and there's quite a few WvW guilds that would love nothing better than to just GvG without outside interference.

@enkidu.5937 said:

@KeyOrion.9506 said:"We get nothing extra...nobody cares to PPT."

@KeyOrion.9506 said:Might be time to start up GvG mapsabsolutely

Reset night is a joke. We had no Ques on any map. None, this last reset a single que on a single map played out for 2 to 5 minutes...after that it was gone. Multiple maps either had no commander to rally, or nobody wished to enter that particular map because they either hated the map, or they felt that it was so full of enemy forces that it was useless to fight on that map. And each reset night, the time that a que pops and lasts is getting smaller per week as time drags on. It's time to let the GvG guilds go, and give them their own damn format. WvW no longer serves any purpose to any of the major guidls that play in WvW any longer. They purposely go HUNTING for large groups, bypassing one capture point after another. Ignoring open walls or gates. Or breaking into a location, and STOPPING right there, and wait for an enemy force to actually show up to fight. Seriously you all can't be that blind to have seen the tactics of group FARMING? The GvG guilds want bags, they want fight, and nothing else anymore. They said they don't care about PPT or winning. They just want the fights. Give them the fights, give them their GvG, just get them out of WvW. We can rebuild WvW, but not with the mentality of player base or of commanders that are no longer driven...to win.

@Bristingr.5034 said:They already implemented a GvG map. Nobody uses it.

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:But when commanders DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINNING.The reason we commanders don't try to win the weekly match ups because there's no incentive to do so. Oh, if we win we get to fight Blackgate? Why would ANY server want to win then?

Hmmm surprise surprise thats where you will get fights , no such thing as "fight " guilds they are a figment of peoples imaginations.

@cobbah.3102 said:

@Bristingr.5034 said:They already implemented a GvG map. Nobody uses it.

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:But when commanders DO NOT CARE ABOUT WINNING.The reason we commanders don't try to win the weekly match ups because there's no incentive to do so. Oh, if we win we get to fight Blackgate? Why would ANY server want to win then?

And the first 2 years, you were all complaining about going up in tier to fight Jade Quarry. There will be rise and falls of servers. Every empire ever known has never lasted forever. You'll grow, you'll expand. Then overconfidence creeps in, then laziness and boredom, or perhaps what drove you to get to the top will no longer matter. And then your empire slowly starts to recede or succumb in time to internal or external pressures. Every dog has its day.

To win.... to win what exactly, be in the highest tier for what? Capture all stuff and then what?

You need to wake up.

so basically just go even further into making WvW another PvE map.

If I remember correctly, I originally became a commander so we wouldn't lose home border. Of course I still play to win matchups but am not that obsessed about flipping enemy towers all the time but rather defend ours and go for fun fights while being point efficient. Don't mind flipping some upgraded keeps and towers either in hope for a fight or to outsmart the enemy commander when the fights start dulling out.

It is true that lot of commanders think there exists some kind of line between PPT and fight commanders but the most popular commanders in the past excel at both. They make people proud of having a smart and charismatic commander, if you start failing at thinking the moment you have to take a wall down or borderhop, you're not exactly the smartest of the bunch, rather being carried by your guild.

Anyways my point is, you can become a commander yourself. It is a stony path for a commander that plays for points; I had to become top level in PvP, learn to understand bunch of classes, buy a PC that can reach over 20 FPS and get used to commanding before I started gaining enough following to flip upgraded keeps during daytime. But truth is you don't need that many players to take care of home border, yes there might be 1 keep you can't touch because enemy is camping it. But you can flip the rest then make holes in it and snipe some dollies/camps until a fight commander shows up and will take care of it. As you see, it is much easier to just gear up your firebrand and tag up, pretending to be a big important person that goes only for fights. I have run into so many overrated "fight-only" guild backed commanders that couldn't survive 2 seconds on a minstrel firebrand following me because they're so used to superior-compositioning enemies or playing pure pirateship.

Regarding your topic, every commander will go through their "GvG" phase when they're growing up. This is basically when their ego grows big because they win fights. Then when it falls down because server/guild starts doing badly, they either bandvagon throwing away all their progress and rot away at some overstacked server or face the reality that to enjoy WvW they need to become strong in other aspects of WvW as well. It would happen to you also if you ever decided to become a commander, so I wouldn't judge them too hard.

There really is no point to adding a GvG map. Guilds don't want equal or balanced fights. They just want to win fights, all of them. And as server transfers have proven, by stacking and outnumbering their opponents. When that fails, avoiding other guilds or transferring to somewhere they CAN outnumber their opponent. Why do you think you see soo many guilds that can easily field 40-50 people in lower tiers. Because they don't have any opposition in the timezone they play in. They don't care about the score, they just want to pvdoor. (heh, that rhymes)

@"Threather.9354" said:Regarding your topic, every commander will go through their "GvG" phase when they're growing up. This is basically when their ego grows big because they win fights. Then when it falls down because server/guild starts doing badly, they either bandvagon throwing away all their progress and rot away at some overstacked server or face the reality that to enjoy WvW they need to become strong in other aspects of WvW as well. It would happen to you also if you ever decided to become a commander, so I wouldn't judge them too hard.[snip] I was going to add some balance to what was said (agreeing with the spirit but discussing some of the explanations - eg., adding a bit of reasoning between the differences of "GvG" and GvG because the average reader here probably won't see that distinction) and expanding a bit on what was said. However, I realized I didn't really add anything to the discussion and I agree far more with the great majority of what is being said than I'd like to nitpick about some examples, so edit.

As far as the topic at hand though: I think at this point the best short-term solution that ArenaNet can do with regards to the larger state of the game's PvP modes and competetive play is just to expand on the changes they are implementing for sPvP. It does pain me a bit to say as a WvW-player but I really believe that it serves the game and continued development better to first look at how to overlap the sPvP and WvW/GvG communities through the efforts put into the sPvP tournament maps. For example by adding swiss and then expanding the 2v2 format to a 5v5 format and later to a 10v10 format and evaluate. It will not fit the 15v15 norms that GvG has had for a long time (or the old 25v25 format that alot of WvW players still clamour for) but it will start building in a bit more community overlap on existing technologies.

I really and sincerely hope they took our advise way back when they started planning and talking about the sPvP tournament modes, to build in larger scale in the backend system. Otherwise they have made a grave wasteful error going forward. I really hope they didn't build the 2v2 / swiss systems with only that scale in mind and with built-in hurdles for expanding it. Either way, I can see the WvW community being more receptive to getting onboard with a system that really works, even if it is under sPvP physics and 10v10 scale than I see a future in developing a bunch of separate systems with less overlap and quality. I think that by adding a 5v5 scale they will interest some roaming guilds to try a tournament and by adding a 10v10 scale they will interest some GvG guilds. From there they can take a longer perspective and look at 15v15 and 25v25 in relation to broadcast and viewer appeal etc.

Now, don't get me wrong. I would love an arena system with WvW physics and gearing that actually works. It's just that the patchwork we've seen recently is really not it. The EotM arena, improvements to OS and at this point even the GH, they don't seem like they could pan out in something better. The sPvP system seems better supported and with more focus-driven development. If they decide to make a second separate system for WvW they should probably scratch everything else there and build a second system from scratch that takes the GH ownership mechanics, the sPvP lobby and EotM portalling option mechanics and add them to an OS theme and scale. Then they can scrap all those unfinished systems. Until they can commit to something big like that however, they are probably better served by expanding on the new sPvP systems than trying to duct tape all those unfinished, buggy or broken GvG ideas.

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:

Lets just face it Anet. Quite a few of the major guilds in WvW, no longer care about PPT, score, or Winning. It's turned into one big Fight Club format, where all they want to do is hunt down other large forces to go Zerg vs. Zerg. It may be time to institute a Guild vs. Guild format for Guildwars 2. WvW would still be there, but WvW is a format where WvW players do want to PPT, do want to win. The Fight Club commanders of the major guilds, no longer want to win. They don't care about PPT. All they care about is the fight. And you can easily give that to them in GvG. Implement a GvG format for the Fight Club guilds so WvW can get back to "winning".

It's SOOOOOO hard to care about WINNING when you have no control during the 21 hours you aren't playing.

How many matches does one have to play WvW before you realize this.It is so boring to play against a PPT opponent when they have better coverage and have T3 structures with siege everywhere.

The reason why "fight guilds" and GVG grew was because:

1. Match results are pre-determined, unless a server chooses to tank
2. PPT game play is extremely boring for certain players.
3. Glicko hell kept the same servers facing each other week after week after week.........