Jormag's Plan — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Jormag's Plan

Khnemu.6029Khnemu.6029 Member ✭✭
edited September 21, 2019 in Lore

So there's been something I've been thinking of...

Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?

Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

If it was Jormag's usual methods, the Commander would use caution before approaching. After all, they have no direct line of contact with the Commander and nobody they know would be manipulated so easily. But Bangar and Rytlock's son on the other hand... For the sake of Rytlock, the Commander would want to follow Bangar and the others to save them from getting in over their heads. This would get the Commander to willingly meet with Jormag without any concerns for their own safety.

Comments

  • Bander.5194Bander.5194 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

    I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    @Khnemu.6029 said:
    So there's been something I've been thinking of...

    Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

    If one assumes Jormag is speaking to the Commander.

    So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?

    Bangar wasn't really expecting Aurene's arrival or actions. He also invited Almorra. I mean, ignoring the whole "the PC needs a reason to go", it would make it seem all the more official if Bangar invited the Dragonslayer to a celebration about the slaying of the dragon.

    Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

    An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.

    @Bander.5194 said:

    I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

    That is correct. Jormag's involvement officially is merely "Bangar is planning to dominate and control it".

    Anything beyond that is player speculation.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Khnemu.6029 said:
    Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

    An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding. I didn't mean that Bangar himself is, at the moment anyway, under Jormag's control, but we can assume that somebody close to him is (the mole I mentioned). They are the one I'm talking about when I talk about someone leading the Commander (Aurene's Champion) to meet with Jormag. Bangar (and Rytlock's son if he's not the one being controlled) is just the lure to get the Commander there.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

    Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"
    Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.
    Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

    Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

    And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

    I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

    Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"
    Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.
    Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

    Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

    And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

    I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

    you mean a bit what they did with Mordremoth in the trailer, with rytlock throwing that wyvern over the cliff and Mordremoth coming up from it "who dare stands against me?"

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jormag wants everyone dead

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag's strategy unlike the other dragons so far is to seduce it's minions into it's corrption rather than overwhelm them and corrupt them by force.. I.E branded/risen.

    Even if you just take the trailer dialogue alone and that dialogue is aimed at the commander the message is very clearly "join me or die"
    Other dragons have made similar claims in the past, Mordremoth pulled a similar trick on Sylvari though it was more aggressive, domination rather than persuasion.
    Zhaitan too had it's minions demand submission from the living on occasion but never give them a second option.

    Jormag seems more the kind to hide it's true power and forces, perhaps even being willing to confront us face to face and speak to us directly which will be a first for an Elder Dragon and I seriously hope Anet does this in a really flashy environment like on top of a cliff in a blizzard, with Jormags face or features like it's eyes occasionally coming into view.. just enough that we know it's actually there but Jormag intentionally remaining elusive in the blizzard so that we never truly get a good view of the Dragon until we reject it's offer to join it and it reveals it's full face emerging from the blizzard to get very up close and personal, displaying it's massive size and dominance over us, showing just how easily it could kill is right then and there if it wanted to.. before it remarks at our foolishness or how much we'll regret this decision later before it retreats back into the blizzard and disappears.

    And introduction like that albiet with far better writers and talent behind it could be one hell of a memorable introduction to this Dragon.

    I loved those face to face encounters with Kralkatorrik in PoF and living world 4, so I hope Jormag at least gets one moment like that.

    you mean a bit what they did with Mordremoth in the trailer, with rytlock throwing that wyvern over the cliff and Mordremoth coming up from it "who dare stands against me?"

    Nah that was a trailer, i'm talking about an in game moment to debut the dragon with a face to face encounter.

    Kinda like how they first showed Kralkatorrik during the final story instance of PoF with his face emerging from a brandstorm only this time Jormag will be the center of attention and we'll be actively speaking to it without being distracted by an additional boss fight.
    All eyes and ears will be focused on Jormag who would remain mostly concealed within a blizzard, toying with us until it wants to get right up in our face and show itself.

    That's my vision for our first encounter with it anyway.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Jormag wants everyone dead

    Not true. Jormag would much rather you be a walking ice statue than dead. If you happen to die in the process, that's more of a "you" problem.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    Pretty sure Bangar, Ryland, and their group are all going to be icebrooded either way in the next one or two episodes as soon as they use Braham's bow on Jormag regardless of whether or not Jormag is directly or indirectly influencing either or both of them.

    Jormag knows if he goes into outright battle with the Pact, commander, Aurene, and the full Charr/Norn armies he will most likely lose the fight (especially after being seemingly weakened from the blast he received), so he will probably try to persuade large portions of those groups (likely the PC and Aurene soon) to join him to even out the field, like he already seems to have succeeded in this with Bangar's forces. I'm guessing that Jormag will target the Norn soon by going after the Spirits of the Wild and icrebrooding them to persuade their followers to join him.

  • I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

    Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

    Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

    But that would mean that it will be just as the Plague, so basically if we take away the Longbow from him, Aurene will come in and smash away basically...

    Bangar is basically fighting two Gods and want to team up with Jormag that is just a force of nature wanting more power. :D

    Joko was a poorly written character, not because of his personality and how he acted, but that he had basically not a real payoff in the future, but if we count some last minute Ogden's prophecy, then yeah his death was sooo meaningful.

    Scarlet's death caused Mordremoth to awake, Killing Mordremoth caused the magic to go wild, then Balthazar's death caused Kralkatorrik go wild.

    Now if Bangar is Joko 2.0, then it means he doesn't have a good plan and plan B to screw us up.

    Bangar would have to team up with the Astral beings or out of Tyria gods to even count, and now he will just become the puppet of the Ice Dragon or will just threaten Jormag with the Longbow, that if Jormag won't cooperate with Bangar, Bangar will shoot an arrow, that would be just meh.

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's the main problem with the story right now, that no matter what the villains do, they basically wait to be killed by two Gods, maybe three if you count Caithe.

    If Aurene's weakness isn't the bond with Commander, nothing makes any sense in the story, then. :D

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • The commander is hardly a "god." Almost every single case of single combat between the commander and a villain has resulted in the commander's defeat, or in one case, death.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am talking about Right now, not before the Commander's bond with Aurene became god-like in War Eternal.

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    There were only two situations when the Commander was defeated in combat and two of them were in PoF content, before and now we'd been losing people, but always winning wars, despite the difficulties.

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    An interesting notion, but I'm not yet convinced that Bangar is under Jormag's control. Will it happen? Highly likely. Has it? Doubtfully.

    @Bander.5194 said:

    I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

    That is correct. Jormag's involvement officially is merely "Bangar is planning to dominate and control it".

    Anything beyond that is player speculation.

    @Khnemu.6029 said:

    Sorry for any misunderstanding. I didn't mean that Bangar himself is, at the moment anyway, under Jormag's control, but we can assume that somebody close to him is (the mole I mentioned). They are the one I'm talking about when I talk about someone leading the Commander (Aurene's Champion) to meet with Jormag. Bangar (and Rytlock's son if he's not the one being controlled) is just the lure to get the Commander there.

    In my opinion, Bangar is not seeking power. He is not even trying to kill Jormag. He knows that by killing another Elder Dragon without having a substitute will end the World. Bangar is seeking death. An heroic death, suited for an old school Blood Legion leader. By his death he wants to give to the Blood Legion the chance to transform into something having a goal even in peace times. Something he cannot find, but the next leader should. And he took the Renegades with him - they will dye also. And the survivors will understand that an Elder Dragon is not something a single legion can handle. And I think the Renegades will stop acting against the peace (something like the Nightmare Court after finding what Mordremoth truly wants).

    The "let's even the odds by killing our own ED" is only propaganda for the Separatist and for the hot headed Blood Legions following him. Because Blood Legion has the odds on its side. Rytlock is one of the only 3 living persons (the other are Caithe and the Commander) who participated in 3 full campaigns against 3 ED, personally taking part to the final battle every time. What odds to even?

    As a personal note, I don't want Rytlock as the new Imperator. Because an Imperator cannot leave his duties to join the Dragon Watch actions every times his guildmates will need him.

  • I think its possible Jormag is speaking to Rytlock. Just watch the trailer, it starts with showing a charr that looks like Rytlock holding a cub (Ryland). Also what emerges from the storm to face rytlock, an icebrood charr that looks similar to Rytlock.

    As for Jormag's plan we know it must be trying to amass an army through the events of bound by blood. I dont think the army is for the standard assault the world thing. The devs said that Jormag found an opportunity and is trying to seize it or something like that. I think Jormag's plan could be something beyond the world maybe.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

    Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

    Bangar is the type of Villain that maybe might survive for another saga hopefully. Especially if we get more charr focus story lines in the future going deeper into the Charr homelands, which may or may not happen after this season.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I really hope they don't get corrupted so quickly. ArenaNet has a bad habit of making stories way too fast paced. They have said they regret killing Joko off so quickly, and Bangar seems like another attempt at a personality-filled villain akin to Joko, so I think they'll try to make him last more than just a couple releases.

    yeah, Bangar is they chance to redeem themselfs from "long live the lich" fiasco.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bander.5194 said:
    Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

    I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

    So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

    Well, the good news is that we could probably just find an alternate path to catch up with Bangar. Maybe there are some abandoned Dwarven ruins that could let us pass under the mountain and the storms. Probably minimal chance that they delved too deep and unearthed a giant destroyer or something.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Bander.5194 said:
    Jormag is the dragon of persuasion, so it makes sense to me that they would want to 'recruit' the Commander if possible before outright trying to destroy them.

    I don't think the Commander or anyone in Dragon's Watch has connected these strange happenings with Jormag, yet, though, aside from knowing that Bangar has now implicated the dragon in his own plan for power.

    So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

    Well, the good news is that we could probably just find an alternate path to catch up with Bangar. Maybe there are some abandoned Dwarven ruins that could let us pass under the mountain and the storms. Probably minimal chance that they delved too deep and unearthed a giant destroyer or something.

    Jormag is, at the moment asleep (or there has been zero reports of Jormag being active). For them to ponder what's causing increased storms without instantly screaming "JORMAG!" is reasonable.

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    I am talking about Right now, not before the Commander's bond with Aurene became god-like in War Eternal.

    Nothing says the bond made the Commander stronger. Let alone godlike.

    Gods are capable of reshaping entire countries in battle. The Commander is nothing close.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    There were only two situations when the Commander was defeated in combat and two of them were in PoF content, before and now we'd been losing people, but always winning wars, despite the difficulties.

    Three. The Commander lost twice to Balthazar, and once to Joko. Two of the three defeats were in one-on-one combat.

    The only reason why the Commander didn't die to Joko, is because of Aurene Ex Gagkilla.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, Bangar is not seeking power. He is not even trying to kill Jormag. He knows that by killing another Elder Dragon without having a substitute will end the World. Bangar is seeking death. An heroic death, suited for an old school Blood Legion leader. By his death he wants to give to the Blood Legion the chance to transform into something having a goal even in peace times. Something he cannot find, but the next leader should. And he took the Renegades with him - they will dye also. And the survivors will understand that an Elder Dragon is not something a single legion can handle. And I think the Renegades will stop acting against the peace (something like the Nightmare Court after finding what Mordremoth truly wants).

    The "let's even the odds by killing our own ED" is only propaganda for the Separatist and for the hot headed Blood Legions following him. Because Blood Legion has the odds on its side. Rytlock is one of the only 3 living persons (the other are Caithe and the Commander) who participated in 3 full campaigns against 3 ED, personally taking part to the final battle every time. What odds to even?

    The issue with this idea - as interesting as it is - is that Bangar has been financing the Renegades for years, perhaps since the beginning. He didn't just suddenly take Renegade forces under his wing, they have been under his wing. Just like Caudecus with Separatists, except where Caudecus funds Separatists, Bangar commands Renegades.

    Bangar is, without a doubt, a through and through racist / charr supremacist. Particularly against humans, but it seems even against asura (possibly sylvari given their nature, not sure if that was brought up in Bound by Blood though). And Rytlock having been present in the deaths of three Elder Dragons doesn't even the odds of his alliances not being fully towards Blood - same with a Blood Charr Commander. They view Aurene as being "the Pact's pet" (despite the Commander no longer being a formal officer of the Pact), and Rytlock as being a member of that group before their own.

    As a personal note, I don't want Rytlock as the new Imperator. Because an Imperator cannot leave his duties to join the Dragon Watch actions every times his guildmates will need him.

    Crecia will become new Blood Imperator. Even Rytlock recognizes that - as shown when he looked toward Crecia when Bangar told Rytlock to kill him and become Imperator. At least that was my interpretation of Rytlock's glance.

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

    It's almost as if snowstorms are a natural occurrence in the world.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    So Bangar is seeking Jormag, and strange ice storms are interfering with their ability to follow him. Is the Commander a total moron? Actually, don't answer that.

    It's almost as if snowstorms are a natural occurrence in the world.

    And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:
    And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.

    Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Khnemu.6029 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.

    Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

    True. And technically speaking, all we know about the construct is that it was summoned by an ice magic user (and that it'll return next episode, but the Commander doesn't know that). This naturally does not mean "Jormag" nor even "Sons of Svanir" - there's a very wide gap between "ice magic user" and "Sons of Svanir" for who can fill such roles. And the construct looks nothing like a traditional icebrood either. The only reason why we, the players, suspect Jormag legitamately is because we know the storyline is called "The Icebrood Saga" and that the trailer for the season features Jormag's voice.

    If this was just "Season 5" and we didn't get that trailer, the only implication of Jormag interacting with others would be the Suspicious Travelers; and without them, we'd have no real reason to suspect Jormag's direct involvement. Wouldn't stop theorycrafting, ofc, but the idea that "the Commander is stupid for not suspecting Jormag" comes from mentality that exists outside the plot.

    While there'd be people theorycrafting Bangar's been influence, I bet there'd be more people going "how does Bangar plan to wake up Jormag before being influenced?"

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  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only reason why we, the players, suspect Jormag legitamately is because we know the storyline is called "The Icebrood Saga" and that the trailer for the season features Jormag's voice.

    That's going too far. Jormag isn't an unknown quantity like Mordremoth or Selbbub -- its corruption has been known since EOTN, and there are lots of people in the Shiverpeaks who have firsthand knowledge about its methods. The ability of dragons in general to wield influence through followers or artifacts, even while asleep, should be well documented by the Pact (and someone like Braham should know the story of Jora and the Nornbear). And it's not like it would be an out of left-field guess -- Bangar raised the issue himself by suggesting he was seeking out the dragon as a source of power for the Charr. Even in-game logic would raise the possibility that this is basically Jormag's MO at work. The ice storms would then be corroborating evidence.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    Jormag isn't an unknown quantity, true. But Jormag is a sleeping quantity. At best, it would only make sense for it to be a dragon champion of Jormag, not Jormag itself. But think about it: the Commander has interacted with plenty of icebrood throughout their carrier (especially norn commanders), there is no reason for them to not connect the ice construct to icebrood, if it at all resembled icebrood (and in truth, it rather doesn't - it's a deep blue, true, but not nearly the black-and-deep-blue of Jormag's corruption).

    Elder Dragons never showcase the ability create new influences while asleep directly. Drakkar was only able to corrupt Svanir because Svanir channeled magic into Drakkar; Mordremoth was only able to influence Scarlet because Scarlet touched Mordremoth's mind via Omadd's Machine. In GW1, the destroyers are made by the Great Destroyer, not Primordus, and similarly Kralkatorrik made no influence while sleeping. In other words, all influence of Elder Dragons while they sleep are caused by their champions who wake up first, or because people idiotically tapped into the Elder Dragon while they slept.

    There's no reason presented in the story to assume Bangar has some artifact akin to the Sanguinary Blade (yes, there is the Corrupted Artifact lying in his office, but this isn't presented in the story, and even then it may not have corruptive qualities), and there's no showcase of icebrood magic or dragon champions present yet. The presence of a single snowstorm and ice construct could have a dozen explanations that isn't "Jormag!"

    So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

    Not only that, but there's mention of a snowstorm brewing during Bad Blood story instance, well before we try to chase Bangar into the Shiverpeaks. This dialogue very heavily implies the snowstorm to be a natural storm, with a slow and known build up, which got taken advantage of.

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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khnemu.6029 said:
    So there's been something I've been thinking of...

    Looking at the announcement and the trailer, Jormag doesn't seem to want us dead. They want us as allies to bring about a new Tyria.

    So then I got to thinking, why was the Commander invited to the Charr celebrations? If you're playing a Charr specifically, it makes sense, but why invite the Commander in general? Braham would've gone without us, I'm sure, if you mention it as a sort of Norn/Charr peace offer. Was it to inspire fear with Aurene? Or was it something else?

    Kralkatorik was one of the main problems the charr have faced over the past decade. They've been fighting it's minions in the brand for many years.
    For them not to invite the slayer of this dragon to their celebration would have been disrespectful to someone many charr consider the greatest military leader in the world currently.

    Does Jormag want the mole that we suspect is in the group to lead the Commander to him? Is that why the mole left just enough clues around for us to follow Bangar (rumors, obvious-looking bad guys, stealing the bow, etc.)? What if the colossus was not actually to stop us from following, but to stop us from turning around (as in, maybe it wouldn't have left toward the village)?

    Then the ice winds wouldn't have impeded our progress forward and forced us back after defeating it.

    There is no way that Jormag looks at the slayer of three dragons, the life blood of the world, as a potential ally.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Depending on the length of season 5, I could easily see Ryland being a mid-season boss while Bangar the season finale (or penultimate boss), with Drakkar hopefully given a role bigger than a mere world boss. This is assuming The Icebrood Saga is 6 (or 8) episodes long, and Jormag, like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik, is involved in more than one storyline.

    I'm hoping that they'll come to their senses rather than being bosses somewhere down the line. Especially Bangar, somebody needs to call the Commander out on his BS. Anti-hero characters are so much better than outright villains. Having them be right and wrong at the same time is much better storytelling than black and white storytelling.
    Besides, who knows if we're all wrong and Bangar actually manages to do it? He's not dumb, and knows it's not as simple as marching to Jormag and claiming the ED for himself.

  • I don't think Bangar falls under the anti-hero trope in any way shape or form. Canach is an anti-hero (who's reigned himself in to becoming borderline hero) as was Sayida (in technicality; not really shown though).

    Bangar is more anti-villain material at best. He's a charr supremacist - a racist - and a warmonger. There is no "hero" qualities in that. He's a villain who, in the backstage of GW2 lore, has remained a "good guy" simply for the fact that he was smart enough to realize he had no chance at the time. But with a larger portion of all four legions now under his thumb, he has a small chance, and nowhere else to direct his ire as he has so far.

    Ryland - he could become an anti-hero, but I don't think he's anti-hero material based on what we've seen of him. He comes off as being too noble and honorable to be an anti-hero, who are typically honorless and willing to do dirty deeds on their own accord by default. Ryland seems to be coming off more as a "zealous to a fault villain", where they're not strictly evil themselves, but they're loyal to a villainous person (Bangar) and does dirty deeds because of that loyalty until either their untimely death or they become redeemed (similar to the Herald of Balthazar, except Devona had been enslaved to Balthazar's commands rather than strictly being loyal, or similar to Valette Wi from S3).

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't there dialogue about the storm being too intense or at least wrong in someway for the time of year? I'm sure one of the NPC's indicates the storm is more than what it seems in that final instance or in the post action npc bits. I haven't memorised the details, but I'm sure there is implication about the storm being more than a natural occurence.

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  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    Isn't there dialogue about the storm being too intense or at least wrong in someway for the time of year? I'm sure one of the NPC's indicates the storm is more than what it seems in that final instance or in the post action npc bits. I haven't memorised the details, but I'm sure there is implication about the storm being more than a natural occurence.

    There is some dialogue earlier on about there being a weird "cold snap" that patrols in the border of the shiverpeaks region are dealing with. The weather/storm as the commander and group start climbing the mountain is somewhat hindering, but they push on. After the icebrood construct (we know it's icebrood because name, obviously Rytlock can't see a name and health bar lol) dies, there is a sudden intense blizzard/storm that forces the group to retreat down the mountain. In the strike mission they mention scouting the pass to see if it's safe, and the weather appearing to be purposefully hindering them from following Bangar.

    It's one of those "It could be natural, but the timing is just perfect for Bangar... is he having somebody do this?"

    One thought I just had is maybe killing the construct caused the sudden storm.

  • Construct and storms, it's entirely possible the Sons of Savnir are lending aid, especially with the construct versus the storm

    Bangar may not even be aware of it, they have their own shamans after all, and they have their own reasons for wanting to isolate Vigil encampments (the best resupply route runs through Grothmar, it's why Almorra is there).

    I think the main reason for bringing in the Commander is to ensure getting Braham by calling in Dragon's Watch. Outsider observers note Braham has a lot of influence in Norn society, but Braham doesn't seem to be aware of the leverage he holds with his people. An invite to him alone and NOT bringing along the Champion of Tyria's Elder Dragon could look suspicious.

    Bangar also seems convinced the Commander has as much control over Aurena as they do their raptor, so before going for Jormag, Bangar probably wanted to pick up some Elder Dragon riding masteries, as it were.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:
    There is no way that Jormag looks at the slayer of three dragons, the life blood of the world, as a potential ally.

    Wouldn't you rather have someone who could kill you and has the ear of one of your "fellow" Elder Dragons as an ally than an enemy? You fight them, you risk death. You convince them to side with you, and you not only add their power to your forces, you protect your own hide. The announcement for season 5 they did specifically mentions that Jormag knows the world order is changing and they're adapting to it.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

    While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

    While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

    Oh, we know exactly that the storm is related to Jormag. As a player/outside view we can easily link together the various clues. A charr patrol mentioned a sudden cold snap, and how they felt watched while walking through an open field. That the unexpected cold is making them feel like they hear/see stuff.

    It's just that in-universe, the commander/allies may not be linking the storm to Jormag, as the dragon is confirmed to be sleeping right now based on all intelligence reports.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So I don't think it's going to far to say the only reason why we can confidently attribute that snowstorm to Jormag - which we're not even certain about in all honesty - is because we know Jormag is going to be a focus this season due to the Season's given name and the trailer.

    While I can't speak as to what the Commander could discern about the construct, the game leaves no doubt -- it is an "icebrood" construct. There isn't really another reasonable explanation for the unexpected ice storms (unless we're going to be pedantic and ascribe it to Jormag's minion or follower instead of the actual dragon).

    To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.

    That said, we, the players, can be fairly certain the snowstorm was not natural. My point is bashing on the Commander because they're not going "Jormag's pulling the strings!" because we have solid reason to believe such due to OoC reasons, is silly.

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  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.

    Is it? I thought Svanir (the original, Jora's brother) being influenced by Drakkar was pretty much the same thing as if Jormag him/her/itself had influenced him. Sure, Jormag may not be awake or still far up north, but that doesn't mean the influence isn't as far reaching as Hoelbrak. A minion aiding an action is not that different from the dragon's will.

  • @Khnemu.6029 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    And/or there are more individuals or groups capable of summoning ice elementals/constructs and snowstorms then Jormag.

    Crecia commented that the construct seemed to have been summoned by a shaman, not Jormag. But as far as the Commander and everyone knows, Jormag is asleep. We've seen with Scarlet that dragons can communicate with their minions while slumbering (or it could even be Drakkar doing the communicating on Jormag's behalf), but they have no reason to suspect Jormag is awake yet. Taimi or the Norns would've probably said something, and like with Mordremoth, there would've probably been a loud roar that could be heard across the region.

    Crecia, also notes that this shaman is nothing that the Charr legions, nor Bangar's renegades have. So, in her mind, the list of possible sources are getting quite small. It seems she is contemplating external influences, especially since she will not believe Bangar's actions are of his own will. And the ability to bend the will of her imperator might be even more extraordinary than summoning of the construct. I think Crecia is not far from connecting the dots, evidence of icebrood is all she needs to declare Jormag as the outside influence, even if it would be a premature conclusion, she would be right.

  • @Rognik.2579 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    To be fair, ascribing it to a minion or Son of Svanir instead of Jormag itself is a pretty important distinction, especially when we're discussing whether or not Bangar has been influenced by Jormag.

    Is it? I thought Svanir (the original, Jora's brother) being influenced by Drakkar was pretty much the same thing as if Jormag him/her/itself had influenced him. Sure, Jormag may not be awake or still far up north, but that doesn't mean the influence isn't as far reaching as Hoelbrak. A minion aiding an action is not that different from the dragon's will.

    While a dragon minion (and champions especially) function off of the will of their Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean they require direct let alone explicit orders to act out. And the indication is that the "will of the dragon" is often ambiguous or general-reaching and it's up to the more intelligent minions (e.g., champions like Drakkar) to interpret the will and figure out how to fulfill it.

    Jormag's will could be "assist Bangar", or it could be "find me an army to corrupt", or it could be "find me magic so that I may rise again", and all three could result in a dragon champion tempting and assisting Bangar in some form or another.

    Besides that, there's also a difference between "the dragon's will" and "the dragon directly interfering from a distance".

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