Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal

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  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    What way would you be able to tell if someone in your team idn't doimg enough dps without a meter?

    I think that's one of the biggest conflict points right there. Some players don't care about individual performance as long as the group succeeds. Which is definitely fine for some people and not fine for others.

    Obtena isn't raiding or running fractal CMs and therefore doesn't need DPS meters. But what's not ok is to tell others DPS meters aren't necessary for that kind of content because something could be done in this or that way. We all know how that ends: 5 attempts on VG, 8 on Gorse and then 1.5 hours or more are gone and everyone calls it for the night.
    Most of the bosses are just not doable without decent builds, be it enrage damage modifier is too high, instant death mechanics and other stuff. For the rest, yes, enrage can be circumvented or outhealed but again you need specific builds and those are also not played by the non-dps-people (like 10 healer gorse etc). And we all know those "special tactics" are not the ones you do regularly because especially the outheal tactics need a lot of time + dedication.
    If people take their weekly W4 B1-3 and get away with low dps it is due to those bosses being so easy the rest of the squad often does not care and just get them done. The 5k ele/slb/insert random dps class doesn't interest you because it's literally: Let's rush it and this poor soul can have his 6g + shards.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    Obtena isn't raiding or running fractal CMs and therefore doesn't need DPS meters. But what's not ok is to tell others DPS meters aren't necessary for that kind of content because something could be done in this or that way. We all know how that ends: 5 attempts on VG, 8 on Gorse and then 1.5 hours or more are gone and everyone calls it for the night.
    Most of the bosses are just not doable without decent builds, be it enrage damage modifier is too high, instant death mechanics and other stuff. For the rest, yes, enrage can be circumvented or outhealed but again you need specific builds and those are also not played by the non-dps-people (like 10 healer gorse etc). And we all know those "special tactics" are not the ones you do regularly because especially the outheal tactics need a lot of time + dedication.
    If people take their weekly W4 B1-3 and get away with low dps it is due to those bosses being so easy the rest of the squad often does not care and just get them done. The 5k ele/slb/insert random dps class doesn't interest you because it's literally: Let's rush it and this poor soul can have his 6g + shards.

    I understand.

    I am team DPS meter personally.
    Of course I realize that they aren't 'necessary' to succeed in high level content, but they are extremely helpful. Some people don't like them. shrug
    I don't like to play with people that perform poorly. I don't flame them, abuse them, or tell them how they need to play, I just don't play with them.
    Some people don't care about their teammates performance as long as they get the kill. I am not one of those people. I would rather take people that will all perform on a similar level. It makes the encounters easier and more likely to succeed.
    To each their own. I hope we can all stop fighting.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    ... unless you're just confirming what I'm saying about mistreating people with DPS meter information because they don't perform at levels you want them to ...

    ... but you wouldn't want to do that now would you? TRUST me you don't want to do that. At this point, probably just best to walk away. I told you ... I've had this conversation before. It doesn't end well.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe you like to think Playing How you Want supports the idea that people are monitored and judged by others.

    That's what "playing how you want" means in this context. I want to play with people of a particular skill level, that's also "playing how you want". And usually those poor souls being "monitored" and "judged" are in the wrong group to begin with. The key word is respect

    No, it doesn't. Playing how you want does not mean policing others to play how you think they should play. Again, I'm not telling you who to team with ... but you aren't going to play how you want by making sure others play how you want too. That's hypocritical.

    We don't really police people though. We just find other people that want to play the same way as us. If we needed to 'police' someone we would just not play with that person.

    OK ... what I'm saying aligns with how you play ... what's the problem here?

    Furthermore, why do you need a DPS meter to find people that want to play the same way you do? You don't. It's probably the WORST way to find people that want to play like you do.

    There are two different lines of discussion going on here. I hope people realize that.

    clearly you don't understand how much info the dps meter shows.

    Some people might claim to be a dps role, and want a fast clear but turn out to do less dps than a hesler.

    without a dps meter, you wouldnt know.

    No, I'm well aware of what a DPS meter does. I just realize I don't need to know what someone's DPS is. The range of success in this game is wide enough that it's not necessary with some noted exceptions.

    That's great for you.

    but for example the range of success i raids..is not so wide, that knowing a persons dps or boon output doeant matter. It absolutely does.

    Sure it's wide ... for example, people short-man them all the time. Maybe not all of them ... but the range of what you need to succeed in raids includes a much wider range of performances than you want people to think.

    You have to be very very good..with(oh shocker) high dps and good boon output and healing to short man them.

    How do you know if someone is doing well? A DPS meter.

    Yeah I know ... which proves that the threshold for success is wide ... I mean, again, I don't need to know if someone is doing well. It is not necessary to judge people's performance in this game to succeed in raids. There are other and more relevant ways to judge the team's performance ... without a DPS meter. This is the fundamental problem with the 'DPS' people ... they think individuals are more important than how the team works.

    But go ahead ... keep telling me things I've seen other metapushers say hundreds of times.

    What way would you be able to tell if someone in your team idn't doimg enough dps without a meter?

    I don't need to know that ... it's more important people know the mechanics of a raid than how to pull of their best DPS rotations. What makes you think (apart from some exceptions) that the success of a group depends on a SINGLE PERSON? It doesn't ... the threshold for success is just NOT that narrow.

    Except that the threshold for success IS that narrow at pure dps check bosses (read: Gorseval no ups, KC, Largos as examples). If rest of the squad is slightly above the required dps and one is far enough below that, the squad can wipe for an hour with 3-5% hp left on boss. As someone who hosts training runs weekly, Kitty's literally seen that happen more than a few times when a "dps" has done less than support chrono and after replacing that player with someone who does similar dps to rest of the squad (not very high even), the boss has got 1-shot. Let's also not forget that if a single person fails certain mechanics or doesn't use the required skills at bosses, it's a wipe no matter how cleanly rest of the squad play.
    And Kitty's legit seen people join raids with soldier's gears, as saddest example a power soulbeast doing 1,5k boss dps at VG. As a buildtester herself, Kitty can tell that people generally need a build that makes at least some sense for their role in the raid. Joining straightaway after boosting to 80 just doesn't cut.
    And after getting somewhat working build for raiding, even 30 minutes spent at golem has usually vastly improved peoples' performance (especially if they have an experienced player giving tips on how to improve). Kitty's seen some peoples going from 13k dps to 19.5k dps in that short amount of time (even to 22k if Kitty's been checking the bad things out). And 20k'ish at golem is often considered enough to start practising easier bosses without pulling the squad down and actually get the kills.
    And meanwhile, 20k golem threshold is so low that literally hundreds of builds surpass that if properly geared and playing the build decently. Even minionmaster staff reaper, condi hammerbrand and hammer scrapper are above that if ascended geared and played well. (Kitty's tested, though don't ever bring those builds to harder bosses in raids as they only do enough dps for bosses where dps hardly matters even if played by top-tier players. Kitty's tested that, too.)
    So, even in raids, build-wise you don't have super-much limitations if you're playing with average lfg raiders, though like some wise Kitty once said, "if you play a build with lower potential, you need to play it closer to its maximum potential". But if you want to play with high-performance squads that aim to clear raids as fast as possible, you're obviously aiming for meta instead of memes and you need to perform like rest of the squad. That's been the thing as far as Kitty's played and that's the reason why she avoids playing with top-tier raiders as she rather challenges herself by trying to play off-meta builds and performing as well or better than most raiders with meta builds.
    And then again, even very suboptimal meme comps can work at some bosses, like "reaper-only Slothasor" or "scourge-only wing 1"(after epi nerfs) though those required skilled players with deep understanding of the class and very unorthodox boss strategies, but like with off-meta builds, succeeding with lower-potential squad comps require more skill to successfully kill the bosses and low-potential comps may be too weak to kill bosses with higher dps requirements. After all, there's huge differences in dps check between bosses. Cairn and Matt have non-existent dps check, Samarog and Sabetha have a low dps check with super-brutal enrage (Kitty's seen them happen a couple times) and hard punishment on failing mechanics and bosses like Gorseval no ups, Largos, Dhuum and KC have high dps check with first 3 insta-wiping the squad if you don't dps hard enough (and Dhuum and KC insta-wiping the squad if you fail certain mechanics). And therefore there's a hard threshold for squad's performance on majority of bosses which does limit who you can and want to raid with, no matter what you say.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • shejesa.3712shejesa.3712 Member ✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I'm not making that mistake. I'm a full advocate of people playing how they want in this game, because that's how it's designed.

    OK ... I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why you think it's relevant to shove that in the face of someone who clearly believes in that philosophy either. Maybe you like to think Playing How you Want supports the idea that people are monitored and judged by others. I don't think it is because that's now the game is designed.

    You've just contradicted yourself. You keep talking about people who are mean for other and judge them for not pulling their own weight. That's called 'wanting to play with people above certain skill level.'
    Are you suggesting that one way of playing the way you want is better than others?

    Play how you want != monitor how others play

    What if I want to play with players that know mechanics and deal good dps? I trust my static, I don't need to know who does how much damage because I know they are good. I have zero guarantee that a pug can perform on the same level as a top dps from my static who has apm so high he was able to type long sentences during meteor shower cast back in the day when staff was meta. This is why dps meters are not toxic, rather necessary if your 'wants' can be measured. If the general idea of the group is 'we do big boy dps and skip 80% of the mechanics, the rest is assigned as per typical meta assignment' you can assume that everyone has that one common goal of not sucking.
    If you were at work and not performing at the expected minimal level, you'd be kicked out. How is this different? Except for 'it's for fun, I don't have to do it to pay my bills,' because here you have your answer in plain sight, you don't have to do it.

  • Challenge in this game is not dps or mechanics. You are talking about pve boss with almost 0 AI. Even chimp can kill vg with some guide and practice
    There is no real challenge the game itself present.
    Real challenge is finding like minded people.

  • The biggest problem i see in the game is not that people can not succesful clear dps checks given by the game. Yes there will be some(maybe a lot) people how dont have enough dps for gorseval or largos or for the adds at 2nd boss 99 cm and for this people dps meter(arcdps) are good, because you can see where the dps is missing.
    In my experience from raids and cms, there are a lot people who set personal dps checks like no updraft, no xera moving befor 50% and skipping of mechanics in cm fractals etc. and most of this skipping makes the fight easier. I see people who never did the normal strategie and they can not even adopt if they see the team is missing dps, the result is, they fail the boss. This people now here dps rotation, but they dont now the bossmechanics, so they can`t be good players after all. Sure there are player which high dps and they now the mechanics, but this people like Teapot can defeat the boss, even with a bad team. To spear people out, because they can not clear your personal dps check is elitism and this okay, but dont be upset if they call what you are.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    Dps players have a huge impact in fractals. A good group needs 30-40 min for the whole thing while bad ones can need 1h+ and some strategies like skipping anomalies in 100cm reduce time a lot but simply dont work with bad dps. I had a condi warr with axes join when we asked for a power warr who did no damage or cc at all.
    A "just heal no quickness" fb and other dead weight not allowing me to play how I want. Doing mechanics with a healer for the 400th time is just boring. You can kill all the anomalies, have a green kiter on siax and so on but would rather not. Kiting the boss in underground facility for an eternity is another painful thing easily avoidable with dps.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blooddiamond.8902 said:
    The biggest problem i see in the game is not that people can not succesful clear dps checks given by the game. Yes there will be some(maybe a lot) people how dont have enough dps for gorseval or largos or for the adds at 2nd boss 99 cm and for this people dps meter(arcdps) are good, because you can see where the dps is missing.
    In my experience from raids and cms, there are a lot people who set personal dps checks like no updraft, no xera moving befor 50% and skipping of mechanics in cm fractals etc. and most of this skipping makes the fight easier. I see people who never did the normal strategie and they can not even adopt if they see the team is missing dps, the result is, they fail the boss. This people now here dps rotation, but they dont now the bossmechanics, so they can`t be good players after all. Sure there are player which high dps and they now the mechanics, but this people like Teapot can defeat the boss, even with a bad team. To spear people out, because they can not clear your personal dps check is elitism and this okay, but dont be upset if they call what you are.

    It is not toxic tho like alot of people like to say it is.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    I think the problem is with the assumption that finding any player is a good thing when it is not. In most areas of this game, it actually is true that players will not make a noticeable negative contribution but the truth is it is definitely possible. And, these players can be a negative contribution for any number of reasons from attitude to not knowing how to do mechanics that wipe the group. Not all of these things can be categorized in a dps meter, but that is neither here nor there. Toxicity can exist with or without a dps meter. In fact, it could be argued that it is worse without a dps meter because it would be based on subjective and baseless assesments of performance. Players can in fact defend their choices if they pull forth the results; the toxic people will not listen because they are toxic. It has nothing to do with arcdps!

    Point is, being selective, for whatever reasons, is beneficial.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I'm not making that mistake. I'm a full advocate of people playing how they want in this game, because that's how it's designed.

    OK ... I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why you think it's relevant to shove that in the face of someone who clearly believes in that philosophy either. Maybe you like to think Playing How you Want supports the idea that people are monitored and judged by others. I don't think it is because that's now the game is designed.

    You've just contradicted yourself.

    There isn't any contradiction here. Monitoring and judging how other people play is not playing how you want. It's telling others how you want them to play. Give that a minute to understand that massive difference.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Except that the threshold for success IS that narrow at pure dps check bosses.

    Sure ... I even acknowledge the exceptions to what I'm saying, multiple times even. And I'm aware there is a threshold of performance that means the difference between success or not. I'm not debating that raiders should have some sense of what is required for raids in terms of gear, knowledge, ability, etc ... I agree with that. That's not what this thread is about (even though people like to MAKE it about those things to justify how they interact with other players).

    What I don't agree with is the meta pushing that goes along with the idea that DPS meter is some necessary tool to complete content and behind the scenes, people don't acknowledge how it's ACTUALLY used in some cases to abuse others because when people do it, it works in metapushing favour anyways. That's not honest.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    That is the most stupid thing you have said in this thread. Sorry but this is idiotic.

    No, it's not, because it's how how this game was designed to be played. I don't need a DPS meter to succeed in content. I don't need to analyze a stream of data to point fingers at the team when we don't ... for the same reason.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    That is the most stupid thing you have said in this thread. Sorry but this is idiotic.

    No, it's not, because it's how how this game was designed to be played. I don't need a DPS meter to succeed in content. I don't need to analyze a stream of data to point fingers at the team when we don't ... for the same reason.

    Untrue since the dps meter simply reorganizes the combat log in a better visual way. The combat log is provided for players to be able to identify what happened during combat.

    As such, your claim that the game is not desgined this way is already flawed. Otherwise none of this information would be necessary to get shared with clients.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    What I don't agree with is the meta pushing that goes along with the idea that DPS meter is some necessary tool to complete content and behind the scenes, people don't acknowledge how it's ACTUALLY used in some cases to abuse others because when people do it, it works in metapushing favour anyways. That's not honest.

    People are well aware how toxic players can use the damage meter. Many have even stated how some of these uses make no sense, for example flaming other players in open world for bad damage, which indicates that the individual player is also at fault. This behavior was present before damage meters and is present outside of damage meters.

    Damage meters are not necessary. They do open a very wide array of possibilities and have removed some of the most toxic class discrimination present in the past. They also make clearing the content, which is among the most challenging pve content, far easier. Which in turn is a huge benefit to any player who is interested in clearing the content.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    I'm not making that mistake. I'm a full advocate of people playing how they want in this game, because that's how it's designed.

    OK ... I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why you think it's relevant to shove that in the face of someone who clearly believes in that philosophy either. Maybe you like to think Playing How you Want supports the idea that people are monitored and judged by others. I don't think it is because that's now the game is designed.

    You've just contradicted yourself.

    There isn't any contradiction here. Monitoring and judging how other people play is not playing how you want. It's telling others how you want them to play. Give that a minute to understand that massive difference.

    Monitoring and judging is ok since they agreed to this by joining my squad. I told them that if they want to play with me and my squad, they need to folow my rules that include looking at their dps.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    That is the most stupid thing you have said in this thread. Sorry but this is idiotic.

    No, it's not, because it's how how this game was designed to be played. I don't need a DPS meter to succeed in content. I don't need to analyze a stream of data to point fingers at the team when we don't ... for the same reason.

    Untrue since the dps meter simply reorganizes the combat log in a better visual way. The combat log is provided for players to be able to identify what happened during combat.

    As such, your claim that the game is not desgined this way is already flawed. Otherwise none of this information would be necessary to get shared with clients.

    My statement is that the game is designed to be played and not need DPS meters to succeed, not that you can't or shouldn't get information about combat. And that isn't stupid or idiotic ... because it's true.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You do know that the dps meter shows you whos doing mechanics aswell right?

    Yes ... but again I don't need a DPS meter to monitor other players ... for DPS or mechanics. Maybe people that watch DPS meters should pay more attention to their own gaming and focus less on policing other people. Play how you want != monitor how others play

    Yea becouse you totaly cant look at the dps meter after fight have failed to see what went wrong oh wait you can.

    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    That is the most stupid thing you have said in this thread. Sorry but this is idiotic.

    No, it's not, because it's how how this game was designed to be played. I don't need a DPS meter to succeed in content. I don't need to analyze a stream of data to point fingers at the team when we don't ... for the same reason.

    Untrue since the dps meter simply reorganizes the combat log in a better visual way. The combat log is provided for players to be able to identify what happened during combat.

    As such, your claim that the game is not desgined this way is already flawed. Otherwise none of this information would be necessary to get shared with clients.

    My statement is that the game is designed to be played and not need DPS meters to succeed, not that you can't or shouldn't get information about combat. And that isn't stupid or idiotic ... because it's true.

    Actually no, your exact statement, which I critizised, was:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You could but I don't see why ... either we succeed or we don't. Why would I want to see who did something wrong after a fight ...

    That's far beyond stating that dps meters are not needed. That's literally a cart blanch statement that dps meters have no use. Those two arguments are not the same. Though you have woven between one extreme stance and the other constantly in this thread.

    Obviously dps meters are not needed. No one here makes that claim. At the same time the data they summarize is already provided by the ingame combat log. What most player here who do value dps meters though will say (I assume, at least that is my stance) is:

    • they have shifted (in a good way) players understanding and stance on what classes can and can not do and in the process rid the game of some biased anti class bias
    • they make fight analysis a lot easier, which in turn makes practice, improvement, opimization and completion of the content a lot easier

    The net benefits of damage meters go far beyond the perceived, beliefed and actual detriments. That is not to say that they are not being used incorrectly or with toxicity in mind occasionally.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Except that the threshold for success IS that narrow at pure dps check bosses.

    What I don't agree with is the meta pushing that goes along with the idea that DPS meter is some necessary tool to complete content and behind the scenes, people don't acknowledge how it's ACTUALLY used in some cases to abuse others because when people do it, it works in metapushing favour anyways. That's not honest.

    Actually dps meters are helping people to raid on off-meta builds. From what Kitty's taken a look at your older forum posts, you weren't raiding yet when only a few, mostly the elite players were using the dps meters. (Dps meters became more common in winter/spring 2018) During those days, any off-meta players got kicked on sight or after the first wipe if the commander wasn't using a dps meter because off-meta meant "quaranteed to be worse than anyone running a metabuild" even if metabuild players were 50% as effective as Kitty playing off-meta.
    These days lots of people are ready to give off-meta players a try and kick only if they're clearly below rest of the squad (which they'd do to metaplayers, too). But Kitty's had enormously easier time playing off-meta builds now than during old days thanks to how people are now using arcdps to see her actual performance (though people are still too fixated with chronotanks and some insist on double-druids <.<).

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There isn't any contradiction here. Monitoring and judging how other people play is not playing how you want. It's telling others how you want them to play. Give that a minute to understand that massive difference.

    Actually it is playing how you want, or at least playing with who you want, which you yourself said you have no problem with. Those that join teams they shouldn't be joining in the first place, by lying and faking are the ones that violate the playing how you want rule because they tell others how they should play. They want others to carry them and hide their actual experience or skill level so others might carry them by mistake. Monitoring and judging others is part of playing how you want, if you want to play with players of specific standards. Unfortunately this game is full of liars and cheats and that's why some form of policing is required, if the player base as a whole was honest there would be no need for monitoring and judging others. But the rest of the game cultivates dishonesty and faking (by design) which creates this mentality.

    You are of the opinion that players should give up their precious time and effort to carry randoms through content, but that's disrespectful and dishonest towards them. The time (and effort) of all players needs to be treated the same way.

  • The problem is not with dps meters themselves, the problem is with abusive people using dps meters as a means to "justify" their abuse of others.

    Data as a personal metric isn't a bad thing, but when you reach into another guy's cookie jar that's a whole different matter altogether, that there deserves a spanking. but hey.. cookies.. ^^

    I believe anything that isn't part of the game isn't legit, its simple rules, whether it is for better or worse, its not part of the game and therefore is no different from a hack.

  • I agree with the above statement though, that players should play with like-minded players, casuals shouldn't force themselves into hard-core/min-max groups and hardcore/min-max players shouldn't force their play style on casuals. There should always be "consent". >:D and people should always know what they're getting into. ;)

  • Fir.7932Fir.7932 Member ✭✭

    And how much DPS you do at Golem? If you are like 20k-25k than it could have been better but it's not that bad to be flamed for. But if you do like 5k then sorry buddy, but I have to side with them. If you have really low DPS, than it'S most likely because you have some toughness or vitality gear, which makes you more tanky so you won't die so easily, but it makes the game more frustrating for ppl who are full DPS a need to phase bosses in order to survive.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Except that the threshold for success IS that narrow at pure dps check bosses.

    What I don't agree with is the meta pushing that goes along with the idea that DPS meter is some necessary tool to complete content and behind the scenes, people don't acknowledge how it's ACTUALLY used in some cases to abuse others because when people do it, it works in metapushing favour anyways. That's not honest.

    Actually dps meters are helping people to raid on off-meta builds.

    Again, this isn't a debate about how useful DPS meters are. It's how they are used by some people with an agenda to push where it's not needed. I'm not denying the value of the DPS meter. I'm also not ignoring how it's used in various ways, good and bad. I'm also not going to be convinced it's needed in any content in this game as a way to justify monitoring and judging others players performance.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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