Thoughts on Necromancer Weapons — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thoughts on Necromancer Weapons

Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 22, 2019 in Necromancer

To preface this post, I promised myself not to put time and effort into reworks anymore after suggesting plenty of changes with many others in the first 3 or 4 years after the game released, hoping for improvements and fixes for many of the issues that Necro suffered from right out of the gate at launch, without ArenaNet responding to or addressing anything for years.
Recently though, with an announced Death Magic rework as well as seeing ArenaNet take some feedback to heart with the planned upcoming patch, I (unfortunately) got inspired again.
Additionally the currently announced Scourge changes, a spec that has been carried as usual for Necromancer purely by it's profession mechanic which was masking the lacklustre core, seem to leave Scourge in a pretty bad spot across the game, calling once again for deeper core changes.

On that note, before getting into my proposed Weapon changes, I'm fully aware Necromancer needs a lot more fixes and overhauls, be it many Traits or even entire Traitlines, Utilities and Elite Spec mechanics, but one thing I rarely see being discussed is Weapons and even if just in a very limited scope, even though the Weapon skills in my opinion are one of the most lacklustre part of Necromancer when compared to other professions, and a big reason Necro is and always has been in such a weird spot.

Generally all you will find on Necromancer Weapon skills is Flat or Condition damage, some LF gain here and there and some debilitating conditions, with Boon Corruption/removal being the only unique feature on some of them.
Barely any skills provide hard CC and no mobility, evades or blocks are found on them at all, as well as severely lacking in Combo fields or finishers, compared to other Professions.

This puts Necromancer in the weird spot of only ever providing damage and corruption, which across each game mode either tends to be too little or too much, while lacking the playmaking potential and often undervalued small skill based interactions other professions provide.

I didn't have time to rework the entire class in tandem, neither do I have the resources to go over and compare efficacy with every other similar skill to make precise adjustments, so don't get too hung up on specific numbers (or names for that matter), I obviously don't have access to playtesting servers, nor a team to test these changes with. Take buffs and nerfs simply as indication of the suggested direction the skills should move in with the provided numbers serving as examples.

Anyway, here we go (and yes, a certain Staff change might be bold/controversial, but it's just a fun idea I had, feel free to comment on it):

Staff:

  1. Necrotic Grasp's cast time reduced from 3/4s to 1/2s. Increased Projectile velocity by 20%. Increased base damage by 20%. Increased power scaling from 0.666 to 0.9.

  2. Mark of Blood base damage increased by 80%. Scaling increased from 0.33 to 1. Bleed count increased from 2 to 3.

  3. Chillbains is now Sand Swell *, renamed Grenth's Gate (visual effect tinted Green instead of Yellow, changed sound effect), removed Barrier and Punishment effect of boon conversion, CD 35s, cast time 1/2 seconds. (Moved to 5)

  4. Putrid Mark now Chills and Posions in addition to it's previous effects. (moved to 3)

  5. Reaper's Mark CD reduced by 8s to 25s. (Moved to 4)

  • Sand Swell on Scourge replaced with One with Sand.
    One with Sand : Punishment, The Scourge infuses itself with a corrupted cloud of sand, taking 80% reduced damage for 4 seconds, applies 2 stacks of Torment for 4 seconds when attacked, 0.5 second ICD per foe. CD 50 seconds.
    Boons Converted to Conditions: 1; Torment 8s, Cripple 2s.
    (I thought about just making it a 3s Invuln, which it may need to be, but it felt a bit too generic)

Axe:

  1. Unholy Feast is now a flip over skill named Deathly Guard , guard yourself against attacks, blocking for 1 1/2 seconds. Upon reactivating the skill or at the end of it's duration execute Unholy Feast . CD increased by 6 seconds to 18s.

Scepter:

  1. Grasping Dead's Bleed duration reduced from 10s to 6s, increased bleed count from 3 to 6.

Dagger MH:

1.2 Necrotic Stab's base damage increased by 30%, scaling increased from 0.7 to 0.9.
1.3 Necrotic Bite's base damage increased by 20%

  1. Life Siphon's bleed interactions removed. Base damage increased by 30%. Scaling increased from 2.7 to 3. The Heal component is now shared with allies within the 600 range.
    This skill is now a Whirl Finisher as the drained Lifeforce whirls around the Necromancer.

  2. Dark Pact has been reworked into Dark Descent and is now a 600 range targeted Shadowstep instead. Immobilize duration reduced from 3s to 2s. Boons Converted to Conditions: 2. Self-Bleeding removed. Radius 240, number of Targets 1. CD increased from 15s to 20 seconds.
    This skill is now a Leap Finisher.

Dagger OH:

  1. Enfeebling Blood's boon conversion increased by 1 to 2.
    This Skill is now a Blast Finisher.

Focus:

  1. Soul Grasp's aftercast reduced. LF gain increased from 11% to 15%.

  2. Spinal Shiver's cast time reduced from 1s to 3/4s. Aftercast reduced.

Warhorn:

  1. Wail of Doom's CD reduced from 30s to 20 seconds.
    This Skill is now a Blast Finisher.

  2. Locust Swarm's CD reduced from 30s to 25 seconds. Siphon Health reverted to Damage and triggers it's 2s Cripple again. Duration increased back from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Inflicts it's effects every 1 second instead of 0.5 seconds again.
    Range incrased to 240. Damage increased by 25%, scaling increased from 0.2 to 0.5.
    LF gained increased back from 1.5% to 2%.

Greatsword:

1.3 Chilling Scythe's chill duration increased from 2s to 3 seconds.

  1. Gravedigger's CD reduced to 6 seconds. Cast time increased from 1 1/4 seconds to 2 seconds.
    Instant recharge upon hitting targets under 50% HP functionality removed.
    Now spins twice per cast, doing 800 (2.5) damage and 1000 (3) damage respectively.
    Deals increased damage to targets under 50% HP, 10% in PvP/WvW, 50% in PvE.

  2. Grasping Darkness pull speed increased drastically. (GS 5, unfortunately the forums automatically list it as 3 even though it says 5)

Let me know if you think anything is completely out of line OP or lacklustre.
Obviously there would still be a lot else to do regardless, be it via Trait adjustments or further weapon changes, but I think these could be an interesting direction forward for Necro.

I'm looking forward to your feedback.

R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

Comments

  • here is necromancer in a nutshell and what Anet wants us to be truly viable in, a BOON CORRUPT BOT. nearly all other builds are not meant to be competitively viable, at best they are just not a MEME build if you know what I mean. all of necro needs a rework or with how this game is structured where PVE does not really have boons and most of the boons they do have do not corrupt to be useful for DPS then necro will never get out of the boon corrupt bot status because Anet wont buff them

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    Great suggestions! Too bad you got inspired by the false sense of hope but I like the proposed changes.

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    It takes ANet 3 - 5 years for a faster animation on a clunky skill.

    You think like a pvp person does. ANet doesnt like poeple like you.

  • Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    The first thing about Dagger is that it needs a solid and unique theme. Right now it’s theme is sorta between life siphoning...kinda condi but scales with power...

    It’s all over the place.

    It needs a concrete theme and it should be good at utilizing that theme. Let’s take the idea of blood magic, which is to sacrifice your blood to perform dark magic rituals.

    A) every skill should come at the cost of your blood...which I would assume would be health, in exchange for casting dark and dangerous abilities. So for example if you wanted to make dagger 2 an AOE life siphon, it should take a percentage of your health and heal allies around you in exchange.

    Now that we’ve set up a precedent skill you can build off of synergy with said skill. Dagger 3 then becomes a blood sacrifice ritual that sacrifices your life force health to heal your own....Now you can create a trait in blood magic line that would make Dagger 3 an AOE ability....

    So you see where I’m going with this. Having a theme for the weapon builds it in a way that derives a purpose. Meaningless changes just make other things clunky, overpowered or underpowered and unsensical. You want to give reaper another gap closer which in effect makes them extremely dangerous, given they can do truck loads of damage in a single auto hit already making them outclass thief.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Great suggestions! Too bad you got inspired by the false sense of hope but I like the proposed changes.

    Yea.. Appreciate it though!

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    The first thing about Dagger is that it needs a solid and unique theme. Right now it’s theme is sorta between life siphoning...kinda condi but scales with power...

    It’s all over the place.

    It needs a concrete theme and it should be good at utilizing that theme. Let’s take the idea of blood magic, which is to sacrifice your blood to perform dark magic rituals.

    A) every skill should come at the cost of your blood...which I would assume would be health, in exchange for casting dark and dangerous abilities. So for example if you wanted to make dagger 2 an AOE life siphon, it should take a percentage of your health and heal allies around you in exchange.

    Now that we’ve set up a precedent skill you can build off of synergy with said skill. Dagger 3 then becomes a blood sacrifice ritual that sacrifices your life force health to heal your own....Now you can create a trait in blood magic line that would make Dagger 3 an AOE ability....

    So you see where I’m going with this. Having a theme for the weapon builds it in a way that derives a purpose. Meaningless changes just make other things clunky, overpowered or underpowered and unsensical. You want to give reaper another gap closer which in effect makes them extremely dangerous, given they can do truck loads of damage in a single auto hit already making them outclass thief.

    Appreciate the feedback. As for my reasoning, right now Dagger MH is a pretty underpowered melee power weapon without clear theme or purpose, aside from being an AA spam only LF generator for Heal Scourge.
    I regard buffing something severely underpowered not as powercreep but balance, even if it is of course in context of everything else having been powercrept. But you can't just leave Necro out like that.
    Theme was all that Necro got for 7 years and while everything else got powercrept all over the place and just received what the profession needed gameplay wise, Necro in general, especially when it comes to the weapons, is still stuck in 2012.
    Furthermore I want to increase viability of weapons across gamemodes and builds, and not continue to shackle them to clunky or niche themes.

    An interesting theme though as well as gameplay niche that is missing for Necromancer is a mobile melee kit with some sustain, as well as anything suited for support. The dagger is pretty much the only weapon suited for that and goes well with a mobile vampire theme like the kit I proposed.

    The proposed changes could increase the viability of Dagger for power specs like Power Reaper, give it at least some consideration for PvP for the mobility aspect as well as providing useful tools for a support/heal build like Blood Scourge, both with the AoE heal on 2, as well as the repositioning tool on 3 and the LF generation on 1 and of course being a nice open world pick.

    A health sacrifice theme might sound good on paper as you said, but at the end of the day you pay with 2 weapon skills and a Trait to have one decent skill that heals a bit, and another to sustain it, and you once again end up with a thematicaly unique but dead weapon imo.

    As to putting combos on everything, compared to a lot of other professions kits I actually tried to be conservative, and the finishers I added all had precedent on other professions similar skills.

    To your last point, Thieves perform quite a different role in PvP than Necros, and I doubt a 600 range port on a 20 second CD will allow Reaper to compete in that regard, and Necro is in desperate need of gap closers/escapes. Especially the consideration that Reaper would have to give up Staff for kiting (as well as the new port on there), or GS for AoE potential and area denial, or the Axe for ranged Pressure, LF generation and AoE Boon rip (and with these changes in mind a block), I feel like a small Shadow Step with boon rip on Dagger and some sustain makes for quite a nice contrast between the options and is the very least Dagger needs to be viable.
    I wouldn't say those changes were meaningless or nonsensical, but instead I tried to pay close attention to what could benefit the professions viability as a whole across all gamemodes and builds, without introducing anything gamebreaking.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Great suggestions! Too bad you got inspired by the false sense of hope but I like the proposed changes.

    Yea.. Appreciate it though!

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    The first thing about Dagger is that it needs a solid and unique theme. Right now it’s theme is sorta between life siphoning...kinda condi but scales with power...

    It’s all over the place.

    It needs a concrete theme and it should be good at utilizing that theme. Let’s take the idea of blood magic, which is to sacrifice your blood to perform dark magic rituals.

    A) every skill should come at the cost of your blood...which I would assume would be health, in exchange for casting dark and dangerous abilities. So for example if you wanted to make dagger 2 an AOE life siphon, it should take a percentage of your health and heal allies around you in exchange.

    Now that we’ve set up a precedent skill you can build off of synergy with said skill. Dagger 3 then becomes a blood sacrifice ritual that sacrifices your life force health to heal your own....Now you can create a trait in blood magic line that would make Dagger 3 an AOE ability....

    So you see where I’m going with this. Having a theme for the weapon builds it in a way that derives a purpose. Meaningless changes just make other things clunky, overpowered or underpowered and unsensical. You want to give reaper another gap closer which in effect makes them extremely dangerous, given they can do truck loads of damage in a single auto hit already making them outclass thief.

    Appreciate the feedback. As for my reasoning, right now Dagger MH is a pretty underpowered melee power weapon without clear theme or purpose, aside from being an AA spam only LF generator for Heal Scourge.
    I regard buffing something severely underpowered not as powercreep but balance, even if it is of course in context of everything else having been powercrept. But you can't just leave Necro out like that.
    Theme was all that Necro got for 7 years and while everything else got powercrept all over the place and just received what the profession needed gameplay wise, Necro in general, especially when it comes to the weapons, is still stuck in 2012.
    Furthermore I want to increase viability of weapons across gamemodes and builds, and not continue to shackle them to clunky or niche themes.

    An interesting theme though as well as gameplay niche that is missing for Necromancer is a mobile melee kit with some sustain, as well as anything suited for support. The dagger is pretty much the only weapon suited for that and goes well with a mobile vampire theme like the kit I proposed.

    The proposed changes could increase the viability of Dagger for power specs like Power Reaper, give it at least some consideration for PvP for the mobility aspect as well as providing useful tools for a support/heal build like Blood Scourge, both with the AoE heal on 2, as well as the repositioning tool on 3 and the LF generation on 1 and of course being a nice open world pick.

    A health sacrifice theme might sound good on paper as you said, but at the end of the day you pay with 2 weapon skills and a Trait to have one decent skill that heals a bit, and another to sustain it, and you once again end up with a thematicaly unique but dead weapon imo.

    As to putting combos on everything, compared to a lot of other professions kits I actually tried to be conservative, and the finishers I added all had precedent on other professions similar skills.

    To your last point, Thieves perform quite a different role in PvP than Necros, and I doubt a 600 range port on a 20 second CD will allow Reaper to compete in that regard, and Necro is in desperate need of gap closers/escapes. Especially the consideration that Reaper would have to give up Staff for kiting (as well as the new port on there), or GS for AoE potential and area denial, or the Axe for ranged Pressure, LF generation and AoE Boon rip (and with these changes in mind a block), I feel like a small Shadow Step with boon rip on Dagger and some sustain makes for quite a nice contrast between the options and is the very least Dagger needs to be viable.
    I wouldn't say those changes were meaningless or nonsensical, but instead I tried to pay close attention to what could benefit the professions viability as a whole across all gamemodes and builds, without introducing anything

    Guaranteed, dagger will become meta the instant they add a port to it. You have to remember that necro was designed to have a flaw which is that it’s less mobile, and
    Even though I hate the design of scourge, it’s the ‘manifest destiny’ for what a necromancer in gw2 should be (basically what core should have been) a very slow pokey but strong area denial class.

    Anyway so what I just wanna say is that the current proposed changes don’t really add to what should be ultimate design philosophy, which is to maximize DIVERSITY...not maximize powercreep. We shouldn’t have to think of skills and weapons having to play catch-up with other skills and weapons. It should just be about diversity and how well those diverse choices can define a play style.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Great suggestions! Too bad you got inspired by the false sense of hope but I like the proposed changes.

    Yea.. Appreciate it though!

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    The first thing about Dagger is that it needs a solid and unique theme. Right now it’s theme is sorta between life siphoning...kinda condi but scales with power...

    It’s all over the place.

    It needs a concrete theme and it should be good at utilizing that theme. Let’s take the idea of blood magic, which is to sacrifice your blood to perform dark magic rituals.

    A) every skill should come at the cost of your blood...which I would assume would be health, in exchange for casting dark and dangerous abilities. So for example if you wanted to make dagger 2 an AOE life siphon, it should take a percentage of your health and heal allies around you in exchange.

    Now that we’ve set up a precedent skill you can build off of synergy with said skill. Dagger 3 then becomes a blood sacrifice ritual that sacrifices your life force health to heal your own....Now you can create a trait in blood magic line that would make Dagger 3 an AOE ability....

    So you see where I’m going with this. Having a theme for the weapon builds it in a way that derives a purpose. Meaningless changes just make other things clunky, overpowered or underpowered and unsensical. You want to give reaper another gap closer which in effect makes them extremely dangerous, given they can do truck loads of damage in a single auto hit already making them outclass thief.

    Appreciate the feedback. As for my reasoning, right now Dagger MH is a pretty underpowered melee power weapon without clear theme or purpose, aside from being an AA spam only LF generator for Heal Scourge.
    I regard buffing something severely underpowered not as powercreep but balance, even if it is of course in context of everything else having been powercrept. But you can't just leave Necro out like that.
    Theme was all that Necro got for 7 years and while everything else got powercrept all over the place and just received what the profession needed gameplay wise, Necro in general, especially when it comes to the weapons, is still stuck in 2012.
    Furthermore I want to increase viability of weapons across gamemodes and builds, and not continue to shackle them to clunky or niche themes.

    An interesting theme though as well as gameplay niche that is missing for Necromancer is a mobile melee kit with some sustain, as well as anything suited for support. The dagger is pretty much the only weapon suited for that and goes well with a mobile vampire theme like the kit I proposed.

    The proposed changes could increase the viability of Dagger for power specs like Power Reaper, give it at least some consideration for PvP for the mobility aspect as well as providing useful tools for a support/heal build like Blood Scourge, both with the AoE heal on 2, as well as the repositioning tool on 3 and the LF generation on 1 and of course being a nice open world pick.

    A health sacrifice theme might sound good on paper as you said, but at the end of the day you pay with 2 weapon skills and a Trait to have one decent skill that heals a bit, and another to sustain it, and you once again end up with a thematicaly unique but dead weapon imo.

    As to putting combos on everything, compared to a lot of other professions kits I actually tried to be conservative, and the finishers I added all had precedent on other professions similar skills.

    To your last point, Thieves perform quite a different role in PvP than Necros, and I doubt a 600 range port on a 20 second CD will allow Reaper to compete in that regard, and Necro is in desperate need of gap closers/escapes. Especially the consideration that Reaper would have to give up Staff for kiting (as well as the new port on there), or GS for AoE potential and area denial, or the Axe for ranged Pressure, LF generation and AoE Boon rip (and with these changes in mind a block), I feel like a small Shadow Step with boon rip on Dagger and some sustain makes for quite a nice contrast between the options and is the very least Dagger needs to be viable.
    I wouldn't say those changes were meaningless or nonsensical, but instead I tried to pay close attention to what could benefit the professions viability as a whole across all gamemodes and builds, without introducing anything

    Guaranteed, dagger will become meta the instant they add a port to it. You have to remember that necro was designed to have a flaw which is that it’s less mobile, and
    Even though I hate the design of scourge, it’s the ‘manifest destiny’ for what a necromancer in gw2 should be (basically what core should have been) a very slow pokey but strong area denial class.

    Anyway so what I just wanna say is that the current proposed changes don’t really add to what should be ultimate design philosophy, which is to maximize DIVERSITY...not maximize powercreep. We shouldn’t have to think of skills and weapons having to play catch-up with other skills and weapons. It should just be about diversity and how well those diverse choices can define a play style.

    Again, the proposed changes are ideas for a direction. If a Shadowstep is too strong, even a Leap would be an improvement, although both would leave Necro still far less mobile than everything else, so that flaw would be intact.
    And as I said, if a weapon sees no use at all, it needs a buff. If you consider that powercreep, then fine. But the alternative is staying in obscurity.
    My proposed changes were intended to maximise diversity and viability.

    Making something different just for the sake of being different, even it's it's bad, is what got Necro to where it is in the first place.

    Regardless, I appreciate the feedback and enjoy the discussion, and would love to see more alternative ideas.
    I'm just a bit tired of weird clunky thematically driven things being added to Necromancer that don't change anything and don't see any use, instead of the problems the profession faces being addressed, especially in light of what interesting interactions other professions have access to, which even though I'm a big fan of Necro, leave me playing anything but Necro these days, since their tools in terms of fun as well as their efficacy are just so ahead of Necro, which has been getting carried entirely by elite spec mechanics for far too long, be Reaper Shroud or Shades.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    Dagger couldve used the gap closer in 2014-15. When actual views, money and representation of the game were on the line.

    Normally im against power creep.
    But I also like playing guildwars PVP.
    And to me, it often feels like im playing a different game with necro. Thief had 2x instant MIDCAST ports through wall to get on you, stealth mindgames, warrior has INSTANT MIDCAST signet for unblockable mindgames..... necro has almost none of those mind game mechanics. It feels like playing a gypsy fortune teller lady, where if you guess correct, your skill sequence will land and kill, but if enemy dodges for 7th time randomly, you lose ....

    And since ele, warrior, engie, rev are all joining thief/mesmer club , id rather get a spectral necro thief , than trust anet to balance around slow but thematic cast times.

  • @Flumek.9043 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    Dagger couldve used the gap closer in 2014-15. When actual views, money and representation of the game were on the line.

    Normally im against power creep.
    But I also like playing guildwars PVP.
    And to me, it often feels like im playing a different game with necro. Thief had 2x instant MIDCAST ports through wall to get on you, stealth mindgames, warrior has INSTANT MIDCAST signet for unblockable mindgames..... necro has almost none of those mind game mechanics. It feels like playing a gypsy fortune teller lady, where if you guess correct, your skill sequence will land and kill, but if enemy dodges for 7th time randomly, you lose ....

    And since ele, warrior, engie, rev are all joining thief/mesmer club , id rather get a spectral necro thief , than trust anet to balance around slow but thematic cast times.

    Ya. This issue has more to deal with the power creep of other classes. I can see why people want these changes including a teleport on dagger 3, but if you do that it will just be powerxreep, playing catch-up with the rest of the powercreep that’s rampant in the game

    Now specifically about thief and necro...I can understand why you’d want to be able to do what thieves can do...but that’s not exactly fair now is it. You shouldn’t have to introduce a teleport on to necromancer just so that it can fight the opposing thieves teleports. You should have your own class mechanics that are strong enough to deal with a thief on your own terms with your own unique mechanics.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Flumek.9043 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Here’s my issue with your changes to MH dagger. Adding damage, shadow steps, AOE life siphon, and putting combos on everything sounds good on paper, and it would actually be good. But my issue is that this is just blatant power creep.

    Dagger couldve used the gap closer in 2014-15. When actual views, money and representation of the game were on the line.

    Normally im against power creep.
    But I also like playing guildwars PVP.
    And to me, it often feels like im playing a different game with necro. Thief had 2x instant MIDCAST ports through wall to get on you, stealth mindgames, warrior has INSTANT MIDCAST signet for unblockable mindgames..... necro has almost none of those mind game mechanics. It feels like playing a gypsy fortune teller lady, where if you guess correct, your skill sequence will land and kill, but if enemy dodges for 7th time randomly, you lose ....

    And since ele, warrior, engie, rev are all joining thief/mesmer club , id rather get a spectral necro thief , than trust anet to balance around slow but thematic cast times.

    Ya. This issue has more to deal with the power creep of other classes. I can see why people want these changes including a teleport on dagger 3, but if you do that it will just be powerxreep, playing catch-up with the rest of the powercreep that’s rampant in the game

    Now specifically about thief and necro...I can understand why you’d want to be able to do what thieves can do...but that’s not exactly fair now is it. You shouldn’t have to introduce a teleport on to necromancer just so that it can fight the opposing thieves teleports. You should have your own class mechanics that are strong enough to deal with a thief on your own terms with your own unique mechanics.

    Professions share mechanics though, and at least limited mobility has long since become a baseline for any competitive build (if it wasn't already since launch).
    Not that a 20s+ short range leap or port would in any way compete with Thief as decapper, so I'm not quite sure why you would focus on that so much.

    This isn't about competing with Thieves, it's about giving Necro any tool whatsoever to break off from focus fire, something everything but Necro can do, hence every match up in PvP is "Focus Necro first", since it's an easy way to get a 5vs4.
    Now that Scourges only lacklustre defense against focus, being their melee counter pressure with self centered shade, is being stripped away, Necro will either need to get a piece of the pie or become irrelevant.

    You say you rather focus on Necros unique mechanics, but what exactly are those mechanics?
    Necro doesn't have clones, stealth, high or even any mobility, combos, sustain, blocks, invulns, evades, target breaks and on and on, mechanics which most other professions share, each getting some piece of the pie.

    Simply standing there, without defense or mobility or any other special mechanic, and just having corrupts isn't going to cut it.

    One medium CD port on dagger is not going to turn Necro into let's say Thief or Mirage, neither is it encroaching onto their niche or strengths.
    Warrior is a melee brawler/sidenoder, and look at the GS kit and it's mobility, especially in combination with access to Utilities like Bull's charge.

    It's not like Guardian's GS with a 600 Leap on a 12 sec CD is competing with Thief either.
    Small mobility skills on weapons are fairly baseline among all other professions and one should have been on Necro since launch, regardless of any powercreep that happened since.

    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    I like all of them except for gravedigger change. does NOT need more cast time and the below 50% hp thing is what makes this skill so bad kitten.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

    My point is just that it will keep Necro from being viable. Unique mechanics are cool, but it gets boring pretty quickly if no one wants you around in any group or competitive content, especially if those unique mechanics are rather shallow compared to the established skillful and fun interactions all other professions share.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    I like all of them except for gravedigger change. does NOT need more cast time and the below 50% hp thing is what makes this skill so bad kitten.

    Basically the idea was to remove the incredibly boring sub 50% hold down 2 "rotation" Reaper suffers from in PvE.
    Making it not reset though would require it to pack more punch in compensation (as well as the CD reduction allowing for 2 GS Autoattack chains inbetween Gravediggers), which since it already has very high damage, can't be packed into a single hit, especially not in PvP, as you need to give an opportunity for denial to opponents (see Hundred Blades, Whirling Wrath etc.).
    Therefor I thought about making it a double strike, which in turn comes with a longer "cast time", in which it delivers the higher damage.

    I'm not perfectly happy with the proposed change I made there either, and Reaper needs a lot more, but the just holding down 2 for 50% of a boss is in my opinion terrible game design which I wanted to address somehow.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

    Then they need to strengthen the defensives necros have.

    Core is a joke.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

    Then they need to strengthen the defensives necros have.

    Core is a joke.

    Ya exactly they need to strengthen and or rework the traits and weapons to provide more defense for necromancers, as long as those strengths don’t distort or mutilate the identity of necromancer.

    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

    Then they need to strengthen the defensives necros have.

    Core is a joke.

    Ya exactly they need to strengthen and or rework the traits and weapons to provide more defense for necromancers, as long as those strengths don’t distort or mutilate the identity of necromancer.

    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. With that, there shouldn't be a block on rev staff, ranger greatsword,... And so on.
    There are a lot of weapons, that arent shields, that block an attack

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Asum.4960 said
    Of course, if you really, really are opposed to having any mobility whatsoever on Necro, the alternative is to blast it full of invulns and blocks, if that is preferable.

    See this is what I’m talking about. Giving invulnerable, blocks and/or mobility to necro or any other class for that matter is a direct result of powercreep simply because “other classes have therefor why not necromancer”

    We’ve seen this happen over and over in the balance history of anet. Thief had stealth? Let’s give stealth to other classes cause thief is OP. Now every class can basically stealth. Then, theif has teleports so let’s give other classes teleports....and now we deal with the abomination that is Mirage. Because everyone can stealth and teleport let’s throw reveal on every class too...ohh but now thief isn’t unique anymore so let’s give them an elite that removes reveal...

    The arms race for more and more powerful skills is powercreep plain and simple. And it’s true in a way I am against giving necromancer powercrept mechanics. I’d much rather have more build diversity, and more unique abilities that retain necromancers identity as a master of manipulating death.

    Then they need to strengthen the defensives necros have.

    Core is a joke.

    Ya exactly they need to strengthen and or rework the traits and weapons to provide more defense for necromancers, as long as those strengths don’t distort or mutilate the identity of necromancer.

    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. With that, there shouldn't be a block on rev staff, ranger greatsword,... And so on.
    There are a lot of weapons, that arent shields, that block an attack

    They could mess with vampire signet and stuff like that more, or they could add an extra stunbreak for reaper. God knows we could seriously use a little extra to help deal with the ocean of CCS.

    There is ways to make as others have said to make necro viable without compromising its vision of what it is and what it isn't. I do think its kind of odd to see both mesmers and engineers with stealth. At least with thief for instance they truly depend on using that stealth to either eliminate condis or escape with their mobility.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

    Let's keep it with Thief then. It's identity has always been absurd mobility and evasion as well as Stealth, which are already 3 more ways to deal with getting pressured than what Necro has, yet even Thief 4 years ago with HoT received Bandit's Defense, a short duration Block not fitting of Thiefs thematic kit of defenses, not utilizing a shield, which is also a stunbreak, CC, and on a 16-20s CD.
    Which ironically is what I modeled the Axe block after (tuned down without stunbreak etc. of course since it doesn't have the opportunity cost of a Utility slot).

    I don't know why it's just Necro where suddenly theme is this all important thing, even if it ruins the class's gameplay leaving it devoid of any fun and interesting skill based tools to play with.
    It's not like a Necromancer summoning some bone shield for a second or what have you would be thematically weak either. All these mechanics other classes share could easily be adapted to Necro in an appropriate and thematically consistent way.

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. With that, there shouldn't be a block on rev staff, ranger greatsword,... And so on.
    There are a lot of weapons, that arent shields, that block an attack

    And exactly this, there is plenty of precedent for blocks and counterattacks on weapon skills or otherwise, most of which are not on Shields.
    It's just that Necro for some reason has been left out, supposedly because Shroud is such a great defense.. but we all know how that works.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Asum.4960 said:
    snips

    I agree spamming 2 is boring, but its a great skill in pvp/ wvw. maybe reduce damage but each hit under 50% hp recharges the skill by 25%? also 2 hits every 3/4 sec would be great.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

    Let's keep it with Thief then. It's identity has always been absurd mobility and evasion as well as Stealth, which are already 3 more ways to deal with getting pressured than what Necro has, yet even Thief 4 years ago with HoT received Bandit's Defense, a short duration Block not fitting of Thiefs thematic kit of defenses, not utilizing a shield, which is also a stunbreak, CC, and on a 16-20s CD.
    Which ironically is what I modeled the Axe block after (tuned down without stunbreak etc. of course since it doesn't have the opportunity cost of a Utility slot).

    I don't know why it's just Necro where suddenly theme is this all important thing, even if it ruins the class's gameplay leaving it devoid of any fun and interesting skill based tools to play with.
    It's not like a Necromancer summoning some bone shield for a second or what have you would be thematically weak either. All these mechanics other classes share could easily be adapted to Necro in an appropriate and thematically consistent way.

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. With that, there shouldn't be a block on rev staff, ranger greatsword,... And so on.
    There are a lot of weapons, that arent shields, that block an attack

    And exactly this, there is plenty of precedent for blocks and counterattacks on weapon skills or otherwise, most of which are not on Shields.
    It's just that Necro for some reason has been left out, supposedly because Shroud is such a great defense.. but we all know how that works.

    To be fair necromancers do have "A" teleport the wurm and scourge has a teleport. We would improve the wurm as if done correctly it could be skilled such as lowering the cd and having more range or something so you could hide it somewhere run somewhere execute it maybe blind your enemy after doing that nd combined maybe use to take off any immobilizing cc's or crippling effects that slow your movement down? since necro has had a teleport for so long i think its not far fetched to improve that instead of getting stealth which as far as i know necromancers never had even with scourge.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Design theme has been changing for Necromancer. Originally a selfish AoE debuffer vulnerable to everything but conditions, Necro has many viable build options and is meta in WvW, at least.

    • Totally selfish -> Blood Magic rework
    • No power-cleave -> Reaper
    • Bad group support / still too selfish -> Scourge barriers

    Other changes over the years include axe buffs, staff buffs, shouts, burning, increased corruption, shroud updates, and shroud skills outside of a transform. Indirect buffs were the changes to condi stack limits on bosses and the introduction of break bars.

    Necro of 6-7 years ago was a horrible mess when bosses were made virtually immune to conditions and had no boons. Arenanet utterly destroyed Necro after beta nerfs and Indomitable. Then left it that way for years. The profession may be under or over-tuned in different game modes, now, but it is much more aligned than it has ever been in the past.

    I sincerely hope Arenanet continues dropping the original profession design requirements and balancing by game mode.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    snips

    I agree spamming 2 is boring, but its a great skill in pvp/ wvw. maybe reduce damage but each hit under 50% hp recharges the skill by 25%? also 2 hits every 3/4 sec would be great.

    I agree, I always enjoyed landing those when I played mainly Reaper for a few seasons. My issue with keeping it at the same cast time or even lowering it as I think you are suggesting here, but giving it a double hit, was simply powercreep, as you basically just give it a tool to strip Aegis and then still land a hit in the same or lower timeframe as the current iteration, so I felt like there had to be a tradeoff.

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    So for example, blocking is essentially what happens when you have a shield. Necromancers don’t use shields so it makes no sense for them to block attack’s.

    finishers I’m okay with. Necromancers lack any sort of finisher combos and synergy, and I don’t mind finishers being on a few key skills to make better use of fields.

    But teleports? Blocks? Invulns? Might as well add stealth because why not every other class can stealth

    Let's keep it with Thief then. It's identity has always been absurd mobility and evasion as well as Stealth, which are already 3 more ways to deal with getting pressured than what Necro has, yet even Thief 4 years ago with HoT received Bandit's Defense, a short duration Block not fitting of Thiefs thematic kit of defenses, not utilizing a shield, which is also a stunbreak, CC, and on a 16-20s CD.
    Which ironically is what I modeled the Axe block after (tuned down without stunbreak etc. of course since it doesn't have the opportunity cost of a Utility slot).

    I don't know why it's just Necro where suddenly theme is this all important thing, even if it ruins the class's gameplay leaving it devoid of any fun and interesting skill based tools to play with.
    It's not like a Necromancer summoning some bone shield for a second or what have you would be thematically weak either. All these mechanics other classes share could easily be adapted to Necro in an appropriate and thematically consistent way.

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. With that, there shouldn't be a block on rev staff, ranger greatsword,... And so on.
    There are a lot of weapons, that arent shields, that block an attack

    And exactly this, there is plenty of precedent for blocks and counterattacks on weapon skills or otherwise, most of which are not on Shields.
    It's just that Necro for some reason has been left out, supposedly because Shroud is such a great defense.. but we all know how that works.

    To be fair necromancers do have "A" teleport the wurm and scourge has a teleport. We would improve the wurm as if done correctly it could be skilled such as lowering the cd and having more range or something so you could hide it somewhere run somewhere execute it maybe blind your enemy after doing that nd combined maybe use to take off any immobilizing cc's or crippling effects that slow your movement down? since necro has had a teleport for so long i think its not far fetched to improve that instead of getting stealth which as far as i know necromancers never had even with scourge.

    Yea, Wurm is one of many non weapon skills I would like to see improved, mainly it's cast time is an issue for me, as the skill is already clunky enough compared to let's say Shadowstep (or any other escape/port really). I get the idea is to place it ahead of time anyway, which comes with it's own counterplay of being able to be killed, but the skill just needs something more.
    That said, I wanted to specifically focus on Weapons for this, as looking at all the lacklustre Utilities and Traits are a whole other topic in of themselves.

    Also, I don't think anyone was actually suggesting Stealth for Necro, just talking comparing tool kits of other professions.

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    Necro of 6-7 years ago was a horrible mess when bosses were made virtually immune to conditions and had no boons. Arenanet utterly destroyed Necro after beta nerfs and Indomitable. Then left it that way for years. The profession may be under or over-tuned in different game modes, now, but it is much more aligned than it has ever been in the past.

    I sincerely hope Arenanet continues dropping the original profession design requirements and balancing by game mode.

    I completely agree some things have been moving in the right direction lately, which is also why I feel like that's the perfect time to discuss a direction for further improvements now, even though most of it is still very unlikely to ever come to pass.
    One can always hope a dev find's themselves lost in the forums on accident and gets inspired by something they see.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

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