About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

About the Charr victim complex, and Anet's hatred for Ascalon

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't buy that if the Charr were able to defeat the Forgotten they wouldn't expand into the Crystal Desert, nor would their conquests cease past the Shiverpeaks and into Kryta and Orr. Nothing in the lore suggests that the pre-human Charr empire was ever going to stop it's expansion, only that by the time that mankind reached their shores they had conquered Ascalon. Why, exactly, would they? The Charr sought domination over all of Tyria. As one Blood legionnaire in Blood Keep put it 'Tyria once belonged to us, and it'll belong to us again'.

    As for all the rampant enslavement and destruction that you claim humans only seem to do when encountering other cultures, why don't you ask the Forgotten? Or the Dwarves? what about the Asura and Norn? The most the Charr have managed was a friendly rivalry with the last, and I use friendly loosely here considering it still involved outbursts of racism and sudden violence. It's as if people take the Veldrunner Clan and think that literally every single race humans ever bumped into were treated like that, where by contrast the Charr haven't really had that much in the way of positive relations with the other races before the Ebonhawke Treaty.

    In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Charr are so enraged at humanity because the reverse happened and Ecology spells out as much. Humans may of come to Ascalon seeking their land but it's not a scrappy underdog story of the Charr overcoming imperalists taking their home, it's a story of the Charr throwing everything they have at a nation of people they sought to enslave, kill, and conquer like everyone else and being constantly frustrated that mankind would not bend to their will. The Legions, more then anything else, could not abide a threat to their dominance of the region.

    Further, you miss the point completely of why Charr distrust magic. They don't use searing cauldrons not because it's unethical, ethics has nothing to do with the equation. It's superstitious fear of the magical that has saturated their society ever since the Foefire and the expulsion of the Shaman caste. As the Flame Cubs say, the Legions are scared of magic, and they find it both unreliable to their eyes and potentially self destructive. It's a side effect of their hatred of spirituality and gods, rather then some kind of moral dilemma over the rights and wrongs of the Searing. Pyre Fierceshot believed it was a good thing, why would those who follow his ideal think any different?

    If there is a thing we agree on it is indeed that Charr society is changing. People like Rytlock are realizing just how absolutely insane the High Legions are and the societies they continue to perpetuate, if anything the Icebrood Saga thusfar seems to be a deconstruction of the pitfalls of that extreme militaristic nationalism and how non-functional it can be in a world without a war.

    I'd point out in EOTN the Charr didn't exactly respect that border rule, just ask the Spirit of the Bear. Like I said before, it's a 'friendly' rivalry that comes from a mutual respect for strength, but that's the key isn't it? For the Legions it's about STRENGTH. Are you strong enough to oppose us? will you make a potential conquest difficult? if so, we can shove you aside for later, to pick off at another date. At the end of the day many Charr still regard them as 'furless kodan', and that's hardly the first instance of that, as far back as Scarlet Charr have had the notion that Norn are weak, soft, after all they fled their homelands. It's not a question of if they would fight the Norn, it's a question of when.

    You take these restraints on how the Charr act as some form of benevolence, in reality it's a question of time and resource. They do not go out to conquer Tyria because they CANNOT, not because they WILL NOT, they simply couldn't afford it. Between the Ghosts, the Brand, and their own constant infighting the Charr haven't been in a position where seizing control of everyone and everything else was on the table. Not that they haven't tried of course, because Prince Edair wasn't the only one to have machinations on Lions Arch if Evon Gnashblade or the Havoc are any indication.

    Also please don't compare this with Warcraft Orcs, even after the whole Garrosh Hellscream and Darnassus debacle they have done far more to try and redeem themselves over who they used to be compared to the Legions.

    And yes I count the Iron Legion in that estimation, because if the metallic nightmare called the Black Citadel is some proof of Charr caring for their environment, i'd hate to see what it looks like when they don't. Iron subscribes to the same altered history and propaganda that Blood does, Smodur just happens to have ambitions of uniting the Charr as a visionary. But make no mistake, the mans basically Bangar Ruinbringer-lite, you can't run a city like that and NOT be, to that end i'm not exactly holding my breath come the next couple episodes. Malice implies that Smodur will take advantage of the power vacuum to do...something...and it's anyones guess what, for now he's on our side merely because he's maintaining the treaty at the moment.

    Frankly, Queen Jennah more then anyone should be credited for pushing towards the treaty. She was the one who opted to release prisoners during the Ogre Revolt, she was the one who entrusted Dougle Keane with taking back the Claw, and if there's someone I trust to hold it together it'll be her.

  • @Seatox.4065 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    victim complex
    talking about 'one blood' or 'one people'
    violent and militaristic

    the concert could have been any extremist right concert, just replace 'charr' with 'white people' or 'aryans'.

    Am I the only one who gets a strong national socialist at 33 vibe from all this?

    I think you were probably supposed to. That said, One Charr isn't inherently hostile or charr supremacist. The idea that the Charr legions should work together instead of at cross purposes isn't really that different from the Pact, until you consider how Bangar intends to utilize that unity. In some regards, then, Bangar is positioning himself as an anti-Commander, especially if it is Bangar that Jormag is addressing as "Champion" in the trailer. Perhaps the season will see him assembling an anti-Dragon's Watch as well?

    I'm unsure how I feel about that. The notion of one charr, one blood, one nation. As well as warband above self, Legion above warband, and Charr above Legion as well as Charr above all seems awfully similar to Volk in concept. Volk isn't strictly bad at a glance, but when you pump up nationalism to the degree where you believe in this singular Charr above all, this abstract concept of Charrdom that you must fight and die for, it gets really scary really fast.

    Yeah, Bangar is fashing it up hard - Someone at Anet has definitely read a bit of Umberto Eco's stuff about Ur-fascism, Bangar's rhetoric hits so many of those check-boxes.

    when I was young I was REALLY interested in history - and since everything taught at school was filtered and shallow, I got my hands on things like AH's book and some of Riefenstahl's movies - among other stuff.

    Oh boy did this episode reminded me of all that. All my NS alarms went off at full power - and I don't yell 'n*zi' at someone just because they ask for tougher immigration laws and enforcing them or dislike same sex marriage (for those young ones, there is a huge difference between conservative and national socialism. A smaller gap between national $whatever and national socialism and a surprisingly small gap between socialism and and the Strasser wing of national socialism. Have fun reading up on it. Or not.)

    So, the charr are at a very very dangerous point right now. A tiny fluctuation can push them in any direction. Will be fun to watch.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @deatine.2498 said:
    The question is not "what mean things did the Charr", because we already know what they did; the question is, "how are races like humans any better, how is it warranted to single out the charr to bash them for being monsters".
    I found that to be one of the most interesting parts of the lore; there are no good guys in GW2. Many of the races are, in some way or another, vile.
    And I don't see Charr standing out in that regard at all, especially not in current times. Humans are still busy messing up centaur lands right now, asura are still systematically conducting horrible experiments on sapient species; in comparison to that, Charr are really just sitting around twiddling their thumbs at the moment.

    Well if you just strip historical context from the equation the Centaur aren't exactly the best group of people now are they? The Modniir practically hold the Harathi and Tamanii at gunpoint to do their bidding, which often includes slavery, ritual sacrifice, and consumption of those that they kill. If we judged the Centaurs by the same metric they're wholly monsterous and humans would very much be in the right for wishing to drive them out. Many of the people who live in Kryta do not know why they are fighting the Centaurs, or why the Centaurs do not accept peace rather then relentlessly attack. It is through the historical lens of knowing that the Centaur used to own the lands Krytans live on that they have any justification at all.

    Now if we're talking Charr they're about as ruthless to their own kind as anyone else. They do not wonder why they fight, and those who do are considered a danger to the state. It is not merely what the Legions were, it is what they still are and continue to be, the Legions would likely continue their world conquest were it not for the intervention of humanity and other forces holding them back. Humans fight to survive, Charr fight to prove their dominance, fundamentally that cannot continue and the Legions are only restrained by their lack of resources and time.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    Again: I’m pretty sure that the dwarves preferred having humans as a neighbour over charr, considering the charr warred against dwarves and humans didn’t. (and all the current inhabitants of the Krytan region would prefer it being dominated by humans than centaur)

    Given half a chance they WOULD have gone against the whole world, that’s what you’re ignoring, if anything Ascalon holding out by itself and giving the charr such a bloody nose put paid to that ambition during the post-GW1 - pre-GW2 time period. Loesh is absolutely right to say that the charr's restraint is everything to do with time and resources and not out of some benevolent realisation that what they did before was wrong.

    Point still stands, they are a thoroughly unsympathetic race and attempts to make them so will fall flat precisely because of all the reasons I have listed before. The assertion does not stand up to scrutiny and evidence.

    The charr do not need to be sympathetic to be compelling.

  • deatine.2498deatine.2498 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    None of that changes what humans did, though, or for what reasons. They simply do the same as any other race: expand, invade, start a war when there's resistance. The fact that they seem the better choice to the dwarves or some other races, doesn't change anything about that.
    In fact, those races might prefer humans for the same reason that you use against charr: humans are not nicer, humans simply seem weaker and might not be able to cause as much damage through expansion even if they wanted to .
    And "but they're the bad guys, so it's okay if we invade their land and kill them off" is obviously only useful as propaganda. At least charr don't pretend they're the good guys while being the bad guys like humans do.

  • @Julia Nardin.9824 said:

    Now the Pact appears to have their very own Elder Dragon at their command. Bangar's charr. He's military-minded to begin with. The folks who have compared this to an arms race are exactly right. If there's any way for him to subjugate and/or ally with an Elder Dragon, he's going to try so he can protect his people via mutually assured destruction. Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

    This however is not a war against humans, the pact is not composed of humans but of groups of every race and was created to fight dragons, not charr.
    If Bangar feels threatened by this, the only plausible explanation that comes to mind is that he aspired to conquer the entire territory and not stop at Ascalon, so the intervention of the pact and the aurene at that point would be inevitable to stop Bangar .

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    @deatine.2498 said:
    None of that changes what humans did, though, or for what reasons. They simply do the same as any other race: expand, invade, start a war when there's resistance. The fact that they seem the better choice to the dwarves or some other races, doesn't change anything about that.
    In fact, those races might prefer humans for the same reason that you use against charr: humans are not nicer, humans simply seem weaker and might not be able to cause as much damage through expansion even if they wanted to .
    And "but they're the bad guys, so it's okay if we invade their land and kill them off" is obviously only useful as propaganda. At least charr don't pretend they're the good guys while being the bad guys like humans do.

    What is actually the point you're trying to make here?

    If it's "the humans are just as bad" then I have answered that: They are not.

    The humans do not "pretend" to be good guys when they're actually bad guys, that's ridiculous and if you can't see that then further engagement is pointless.

    Humans try to fix their mistakes or regret mistakes made by others of their race: Up to and including going against their own gods if necessary. Charr do nothing of the sort because they do not view similar actions taken by their race as mistakes. This is the fundamental difference between the races and what makes humans far more sympathetic.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @deatine.2498 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    What is actually the point you're trying to make here?

    If it's "the humans are just as bad" then I have answered that: They are not.

    That is exactly the point, I am asking for an explanation and examples why humans or other races are supposedly better if they operated in exactly the same way as charr did. I am honestly much surprised be the excessive, exclusive hate for the charr race. Obviously I main charr, but I also play humans and soak up any lore I get, so I really don't see how charr stick out in regards to being ducks.

    Humans try to fix their mistakes or regret mistakes made by others of their race

    Well I don't see humans leaving centaurs alone on their own kitten land so far and they fix their mistakes for their own interests. Just like the charr race is in fact fixing past mistakes for their own interest.
    I do agree, though, that it is pointless to discuss further

    The reason given for why the humans better is they oppressed less, at times didn't oppress at all, and they expanded for considerably different reasons. The Humans pushed outwards to migrate, not just colonize, and because their spirituality and culture included elements of nature worship and an emphasis on compassion, rather then JUST war, they were inclined towards diplomacy and protection of the land. If you think the other races were less inclined to violence because humans didn't seem as capable as the Legions when it came to warfare despite the continent spanning empire, rather then anything to do with either nations demeanor, then I have a very lucrative trade deal on the nearest bridge that i'd like to sell you.

    Secondly, the notion that humans wouldn't leave the Centaurs alone if presented with the option is false. The current spat of wars is something the Modniir started against humanity while holding a whip to the back of the Harathi and Tamani. A casual stroll through some of the dialogue reveals humans wo wonder why they fight or wonder why they cannot get along or work something out. This is not the case for the Legions either past or present, their belief is they have a society that encourages domination and warfare, then proceeds to pursue it at the expense of literally everyone else and has been doing so for quite a long time, that is until humanity forced that expansions to grind to a halt of course.

    Saying 'Both sides are bad!' because they have both done bad things, while ignoring the number of bad things, the scale, or the societal structures that perpetuate those bad things, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense unless you're looking for an easy way to excuse a societies actions.

  • I just realized, the posters on the nothern wall of the keep are copies/derivates of some kitten propaganda posters.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I just realized, the posters on the nothern wall of the keep are copies/derivates of some kitten propaganda posters.

    Yeah, yeah they are. My first thought looking at that Bangar banner was...

    Oh no, oh no...

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The reason given for why the humans better

    Do you know the musical "Wicked"? At one point there's a conversation between Elphaba and the wizard, where he tells her: "Where I come from, people believe all kinds of things that aren't true. We call it history."

    A lot of the "history" we know of the Guild Wars universe is human-centric, and as such prone to showing the humans in a better light than other races (especially those they were in conflict with). This includes pretty much everything we know from the original GW game, since we saw things exclusively from the human point of view then. It was the writers job to portrait the human race as the "good ones" back then. Being objective (as far as you even can be within a made-up universe) was never intended.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The reason given for why the humans better

    Do you know the musical "Wicked"? At one point there's a conversation between Elphaba and the wizard, where he tells her: "Where I come from, people believe all kinds of things that aren't true. We call it history."

    A lot of the "history" we know of the Guild Wars universe is human-centric, and as such prone to showing the humans in a better light than other races (especially those they were in conflict with). This includes pretty much everything we know from the original GW game, since we saw things exclusively from the human point of view then. It was the writers job to portrait the human race as the "good ones" back then. Being objective (as far as you even can be within a made-up universe) was never intended.

    Unless playing a human somehow made the dwarves not in an alliance with Ascalon I find that doubtful to say the least. It isn't like the more brutal aspects of humanity weren't present during Guild Wars 1. You still made armor out of Charr, Rurik called other people infidels, and Alari Doubleblade still scalped people. The Ascendant was a human, but it didn't make their perspective wrong. To the contrary many things in GW2 reinforce the idea that the perception of how the Charr legions ran their world, not the least of which was the Ecology of the Charr, isn't that far off the mark.

    People seem to be under the impression that having a point of view automatically makes perceptions invalid due to bias.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Julia Nardin.9824 said:
    Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

    I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

    Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

    He can always take a waypoint.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Julia Nardin.9824 said:
    Primordus isn't really an option, and he knows nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon. So.

    I kinda wish he went after Primordus. The Charr once worshipped the Destroyers, now they mastered them.

    Doesn't really make sense for Bangar to traverse across Central Tyria when he's got an Elder Dragon right next proverbial door. Primordus is still at the Ring of Fire, and under lava. Ice is easier to get through than lava.

    He can always take a waypoint.

    Gotta discover those waypoints first, and he doesn't trust Ash Legion Evon to purchase a Waypoint Unlock Package.

    would you? if you are not careful half of the contents of the package would be Evon Gnashblade Action Figures.

  • @Sylum.1806 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:
    I've been down this road with some folks back on the old forums. Some people are outright religious about the events of Ascalon from GW1. I'm not sure if they're role playing or they have a legitimate fanaticism about it half the time.

    Gonna go out on a limb and suggest these people are projecting their own real-world ethno-centric righteousness and frustrations into the game lore.

    That doesn't seem stable. But I guess if it keeps that hate in-game as opposed to real life? Wishful thinking?

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @Julia Nardin.9824 said:
    I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

    Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room.

    While discussion and speculation is always nice, i have to say for anet staff to confirm or rebuke rumours, and downright spoil future content, i find highly unprofessional.
    Do with my opinion what you will, but to me it feels highly disrespectful of your own product and integrity and as dev.
    :(

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • RyuDragnier.9476RyuDragnier.9476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2019

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Julia Nardin.9824 said:
    I love seeing these sorts of conversations pop up on the forums! :3

    Bangar is pretty divisive, even here in the writers' room.

    While discussion and speculation is always nice, i have to say for anet staff to confirm or rebuke rumours, and downright spoil future content, i find highly unprofessional.
    Do with my opinion what you will, but to me it feels highly disrespectful of your own product and integrity and as dev.
    :(

    I saw no spoilers for future content there, just things we already knew. That Jormag is talking to somebody. We just know now it's Bangar, nothing more. We don't know where the story will go in the future for the most part. Closing one door merely leaves dozens more still open for answers.

    Confirming/debunking rumors/theories and speculation is not a bad thing, you see a lot of other companies do it too. One theory going around dealing with a FFXIV character was debunked by the team themselves during a Q&A a few months back.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    She clearly spoiled the entirety of what is going to happen in the Icebrood Saga, you just need to look closer .Next episode is going to be all about us getting a big enough boat to kill Jormag.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

    Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created in the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of it is is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

    Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison people seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

    I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

    However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

    Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

    That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

    That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

    Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

    That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of meaningless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

    Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

  • @Loesh.4697 said:
    Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

    Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created om the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of tis is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

    Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

    I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

    However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

    Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

    That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

    That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

    Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

    That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of menaingless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

    Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

    I have always been of the opinion that, by completely rejecting religion and/or spirituality in their culture with the ousting of the Flame Legion, the charr unknowingly crippled themselves. The reason why they did it is understandable--their religious leaders had become so corrupt, the charr of Kalla Scorchrazor's time couldn't see any good in religion/spirituality. Their only examples of religion were corrupted Flame Legion, and the God worship of their enemies. Parents who lived those horrors taught rejection of spirituality to their cubs, and thus modern charr culture was born.

    I find it interesting that Flame Legion is re-joining the charr as a nation. With the corruption removed from Flame Legion spirituality, we see them talking about concepts like the flame representing the strength and hope of the charr; of praying and using rituals to, in essence, repent of past evil. The "purified" Flame Legion spirituality could--in years to come--return something to charr society that was lost hundreds of years ago.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Looking back on my own post made me realize how atrocious my grammar and spelling can be when making something that long, goodness.

    But uh, in regards to that and the developments of Bound by Blood. That's kind of what I feel this whole thing with Rytlock is leading up to. I watched a lot of videos from Wooden Potatos about everything since season four, and I have to say it's very revealing about how people look at the Charr. This focus on the Olmakhan is seen as distinctly un-Charr like, that real Charr should be constantly fighting and killing. It's actually somewhat telling that people were advocating for them to return to their roots in Guild Wars 1 as violent antagonists, and disparaging the idea that at the end of all this the Charr might learn to better live with other people, that they might find value in the power of love.

    But that seems like nonsense to me, isn't the whole point of Guild Wars 2 learning to overcome through love despite our differences?

    Why would the Charr regress back to Pyre Fierceshot and the Shaman Caste after all this? Why would we focus on Rytlock if this entire story was about how he doesn't care for his cubs or his cubs about their father? I already guessed in the trailer it was talking to a Charr, I just guessed the wrong one. It wasn't Rytlock, it was talking to Bangar, and if even he, if even the personification of Charr violence cares about his children why wouldn't everyone else? it's a topic that's hammered into our head over, and over, and over again since the start of the episode. But Bangar is our antagonist because he's made himself in a way, the ultimate personification of what Guild Wars story fights against, he's made himself an avatar of fear.

    That's the repeating theme of this episode, how fear has infested the hearts of Charr at their core. Become so overwhelming even that it's made them rail against the avatar of hope in Aurene. They have fallen into despair and nihilism without the capability to believe in something greater then themselves as humans had. That's not to say that Charr culture should be erased, but much like the Djinn in Ahdhasham it needs to be reorganized. More so then any of the nations of Tyria the Charr Legions beliefs and philosophies grate against the core values that Guild Wars has. Bangar has made himself the symbol of that fear and hatred, but perhaps Efram and Rytlock will be what proves that they don't have to be this way.

    I think that's what the Icebrood Saga will be about.

  • RyuDragnier.9476RyuDragnier.9476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Joking aside, to add a bit more meat to this conversation, there is a running theme under this episode that i'd actually love to hear the developers thoughts on, because I feel like it's going to color the rest of the Icebrood Saga. In terms of Rytlock, of Crecia, and now we know even Bangar.

    Historical wrongs or rights aside, you can tell a lot about the health of a society based on the children that are present within it. One of the most striking things to me about humans and Charr even back as far as the core game were the differences that their parenting techniques created in the children under their care. One of the reasons why I am on the humans side in a lot of it is is because of how they treat their children and the sort of people that it tends to produce. Humans clearly have a much different perception of race relations even on at an early age, the kids in Divinity's Reach roleplay as old Ascalonian heroes but when you talk to them they are readily accepting of the fact there is a difference between the 'Bad Charr' of ages past and the good Charr now, that the worlds changed a lot and that the Charr were not a monolithically evil people In the Fields of Ruin this is different of course, a lot of people there had been fighting with Charr who had tried to kill them since early childhood, but even then there are kids like Olia in Forlorn Hope who wonder why they must fight with the Ogres. To them they see this fighting and don't always just default to killing their enemies, but try to understand the circumstances that make sharing the land impossible.

    Say what you will about human spirituality, but it's considerably different from the typical comparison people seem to make between Christianity and it. There is, after all, a world of difference between a Cross and an Ankh. Part of the reason I really like playing my human Guardian is it's like playing a Paladin that was into Greek Stoicism and Wicca. They are more like primordial elements of the universe that, while capable of immense cruelty as per the parables, are also capable of extreme kindness in their scriptures. Indeed the primary values of human faith are compassion, empathy, and protection. Even Balthazar, the most ruthless of the gods, had a philosophy that revolved around fighting to protect another rather then fighting for the sake of fighting.

    I'm not saying that religion produces objectively better children, after all one of the mist striking things you can find in Divinity's Reach is a human child who is being pressured into liking Grenth and learning about necromancy with his father dismissing it as just a phase. However what I AM saying is that spirituality can have a strong influence on what values a culture holds close to it's heart. Humans are in Guild Wars, a defensive people, and when I think of the kind of values their best teach I think of Gandalf speaking to Frodo in Moria. 'Many that live deserve death, and some that die can deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement.' The gods themselves may fluctuate between good, evil, and somewhere inbetween, but the actual values they taught their people were good.

    However the children of the Charr are much the opposite.

    Cubs in the Black Citadel would scoff at that kind of commentary, for violence and destruction are not only taught to be good things, but their wish fulfillment fantasies of enacting violence on their enemies are taught as a good thing. Exceptions may exist but by and large their children are fed on a steady diet of altered sanctioned history and a belief that only through violence can they gain respect from the people around them. In truth all it creates is fear, the same fear that Bangar Ruinbringer feels keeps them safe, fear that Shaman Ninukab points out has turned their homeland into a hellscape, fear that a cub expresses towards a Vigil soldier trying to calm them about Aurene, it's a fear of the other and it's encouraged. Children go out to the Stormcaller monument fed on such stories and wonder to their Primus why they don't kill all the humans already. Such fear is indeed, likely what drove Ajax Anvilburn to madness, he was as one of the Iron Legion soldiers say, a coward.

    That's a very specific word to use to describe someone, and when I saw it I thought of all the times fear had come up in the last episode, and also how Jormag offers Bangar a way to escape his fear.

    That is the trap of Charr society. Humans have built a culture of vulnerability where people are encouraged to be compassionate to one another, even beyond the boundaries of race. It is why when the Skritt came to the surface of Tyria the Sylvari and humans were open to negotiating with them, where the Charr were all too happy to aid in the Asura's extermination campaign. The Charr by contrast built a society of strength, a Darwinian nightmare where only the 'strongest' live and the weak are discarded like refuse. The weak, the infirm, and elderly are consigned to huddling in farmsteads with their cattle while the youth taunt them about how they were basically sent out there to die.

    Real Charr are badasses, real Charr are defined by their ability to fight and kill with a completely blank emotionless expression, real Charr are also apparently defined by their deep seated insecurities of both themselves and the others around them.

    That I think is why I rush to humanity's defense, and why it's hard for me to believe, even in the early start of the war, that humanity was entirely at fault for what happened in Ascalon. Cultures of 'Strength' are about anything but, they are not about being strong, they are about a fear of other people, of change, of anyone controlling your destiny but you that isn't a healthy way to live. To gorge oneself of meaningless violence past the point of whats sane for no other reason then to prove your dominance and communicate it to others. Meanwhile a culture of the 'vulnerable' truly knows what it is to be strong, to confront their fears and tell others about them, to find strength in each other and hope for a better tomorrow even when the world seems nihilistic and cruel. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a key part to adulthood, if you never progress past that point you'll never grow up even fifty years later, you'll still be the same child terrified of the dark.

    Say what you will about human religion, say what you will about religion in general, but the spirituality and compassion taught there certainly allowed humans to raise better kids in my eyes. That was my take away from Bound by Blood.

    Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    I do feel the need to note however that I do actually like the charr as a race, I simply object to people ascribing traits to them that simply do not (currently, at least) apply to them beyond a few individuals. (And the Olmakhan as strange as their introduction was)

    It should be telling though that the ones who those traits do apply to are all charr who have spent a lot of time amongst other races and outside the bounds of the Legions.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:
    Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

    I kid you not, during one of Wooden Potatos episodes he said that Charr don't cry, and if they do it was a story he wasn't interested in hearing.

    I can't claim to know what the best direction for the Charr is, i'm not an unbiased party. As pretty much all my previous posts indicate I generally find much of their society distasteful. What a fan of the Charr would want is likely very different from what I want.

    However, I do know that the direction cannot just be 'return to being bloodthirsty monsters'.

  • I think that the more charr interact with other races, the "better" they get. The problem is the other races have never really gone into modern Ascalon, and most legion charr stay put. With Smodur pushing for peace, and likely increased trade things may improve drastically.

    Though, despite there being so much I wanna reply to, it'd be a novel at this point. One thing I did want to point out is somebody mentioned humanity co-existed with dwarves just fine, and that was an example of them being able to inhabit the land with locals without conflict.

    This made me think about it, and come up with a rather... dark reasoning for it. The reason I can see the humans getting along with the dwarves (and Naga, the other race stated to generally be friendly with humans before the jade wind) are they are in areas humanity simply didn't want. Underwater (naga), and shiverpeaks (dwarves). Meanwhile we can see that humans kicked everybody else out of the prime real estate. Kryta (Centaurs and Tengu), Ascalon (Charr), Cantha (Tengu), lands around Elon river (Harpies, Heket, Centaurs).

    Fortunately, humanity got better. And the Charr show clear signs that they can do so as well. Bangar had to hold a secret meeting of the charr who supported getting the dragon and having the upper hand over the other races, after all. (Though he technically hasn't broken the treaty, making it so we can't exactly attack him without breaking it ourselves).

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

    I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

    Humans just, like, seem more open to talking to people in general.

    Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

  • Regh.8649Regh.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I kid you not, during one of Wooden Potatos episodes he said that Charr don't cry, and if they do it was a story he wasn't interested in hearing.

    I agree with WP. Always keep in mind that Charr are not Humans and this is what flavors a fantasy story, otherwise we could be playing something like Second Life, and doing things our modern human society expects us to do and react. As a feline race I expect them process emotions in a different way.

    What a fan of the Charr would want is likely very different from what I want.

    Yes, yes it is.

    However, I do know that the direction cannot just be 'return to being bloodthirsty monsters'.

    No, Charr are evolving fast, and for the sake of Charr DNA they should remain aggressive (wild cards) it just adds to it's flavor. But now they are the "bloodthirsty monters" of the united races of tyria... our monsters. The fact that modern Charr are much in contact with the rest of the world changed them, they found new ways of doing things, they finally got to know other cultures.

    This is a fantasy story, and should not mirror human society IRL. Anet achieved something really beautiful here, a different race in so many aspects. And this discussion here just proves it.

    Formula for success: Rise early, work hard, strike oil.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Well, prepare to be disappointed I guess? Cause it seems pretty plain to me that the Charr are like this for sociological, not biological reasons. Which is frankly for the best, if the Charr were biologically locked into being a Kratocracy masquerading as a Meritocracy forever then working with them in any capacity wouldn't be good for your or Tyria's health.

    Plus, i'm fairly certain that 'The Racists are totally right you guys' probably isn't going to be the take away of Bound by Blood, just a hunch. Especially since for the most part Guild Wars has done an admirable job of subverting the fantasy races trope.

    Which is also, very much for the best. I know I quoted Gandfalf up there, believe me I love Tolken. But have you read the rationale for designing the Orcs the way they are? Tis a massive Yikes, my dude.

  • @Loesh.4697 said:
    Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

    I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

    Humans just, like, seem more open to talking to people in general.

    Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

    That's quite possible, but let's not discount another fact : we don't know how early humans behaved.

    The reports and stories about their arrival on the world of Tyria and their spread from Orr to Cantha (or was it the reverse?), Elona and finally Tyria (the continent) are patchy, at best. We don't know what they did, how they behaved beyond the broadest of sketeches. It's not too far-fetched, considering what humans are IRL and how close to it GW2 humans are, that not all those migrations started peacefully. After all, the Guild Wars happened, even discounting other wars between the kindgoms.

    Certainly, the Forgotten were never met with nothing but hostility from Mankind, as far as I can tell, the Centaurs obviously weren't met with offers to share the lands in an amiable way, which seems to give credence to kalavier's theroy that only the inhabitants of inhospitable places were met with diplomacy (and even then, the hatred from the Stone Summits had to come from somewhere. I think it was the Guild Wars, but I may be wrong here); or places which held no significance to the humans, while evn the Desert Crystal was sought after because of the Rites of Ascenscion.

    Overall, while far better than the Charrs', humanity track records when it comes to other races is far from stellar, from the few sources of lore we have.

  • @Valmir.4590 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Or maybe the humans just were diplomatic?

    I mean hell with the Tengu active steps were made to try and stop fighting. The Tengu attacked the humans first. Killing an entire village and possibly eating their corpses during the Jade Wind migration, and again assaulting humans again after the Angchu tribes young were exposed to foreign diseases.

    Humans just, like, seem more open to talking to people in general.

    Also for Bangar: The mans leading a pack of Renegades, depending on how you do Deeper and Deeper you outright kill his men. I think we've escalated beyond just words at this point.

    That's quite possible, but let's not discount another fact : we don't know how early humans behaved.

    The reports and stories about their arrival on the world of Tyria and their spread from Orr to Cantha (or was it the reverse?), Elona and finally Tyria (the continent) are patchy, at best. We don't know what they did, how they behaved beyond the broadest of sketeches. It's not too far-fetched, considering what humans are IRL and how close to it GW2 humans are, that not all those migrations started peacefully. After all, the Guild Wars happened, even discounting other wars between the kindgoms.

    Certainly, the Forgotten were never met with nothing but hostility from Mankind, as far as I can tell, the Centaurs obviously weren't met with offers to share the lands in an amiable way, which seems to give credence to kalavier's theroy that only the inhabitants of inhospitable places were met with diplomacy (and even then, the hatred from the Stone Summits had to come from somewhere. I think it was the Guild Wars, but I may be wrong here); or places which held no significance to the humans, while evn the Desert Crystal was sought after because of the Rites of Ascenscion.

    Overall, while far better than the Charrs', humanity track records when it comes to other races is far from stellar, from the few sources of lore we have.

    Another factor would be the Dwarves already had an established civilization. Centaurs and Charr weren't as developed. We know the Charr considered Ascalon to be a hunting ground, and even today Centaur villages are pretty simple functional, but simple.

    Could've been they saw Dwarves and went "Ah, civilized people!" and got friendly (seeing as Dwarves had cities and forts throughout the shiverpeaks), while the more "primitive" groups were pushed aside.

  • miriforst.1290miriforst.1290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Nvm i skimmed through too fast : P

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:
    Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

    It seems a little... not narcissistic, but something similar... to assume that any and all social commentary must be regarding a particular modern society. If the names and terms they use weren't enough of a clue, they borrow a lot from the Romans and Spartans in many respects, including their ethos.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:
    Reading this, it makes it seem like Charr society is a jab at toxic masculinity and the older American mindsets. You aren't allowed to show emotion, you aren't allowed to cry, real men don't cry. Empathy and kindness are for weaklings. Born weak, are constantly sick, or old? Too bad, if you can't take care of yourself you're better off dead. We're better than you because of how we look. Etc etc. Basically outdated notions that cause harm in the long run.

    It seems a little... not narcissistic, but something similar... to assume that any and all social commentary must be regarding a particular modern society. If the names and terms they use weren't enough of a clue, they borrow a lot from the Romans and Spartans in many respects, including their ethos.

    All interpretation of history is in some way colored by modern beliefs, no matter how accurate you try to make it. At the same time there doesn't have to be one set way to interpret a work, it's a very reductive way to look at art.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    I'm actually unsure that the Forgotten even had anything remotely close to a hostile relationship with humans. None of their early records indicate anything of the sort, with scripture describing the Forgotten as guides, and the Forgotten largely withdrawing not due to war with mankind but due to a recall from Glint to the Crystal Desert. When the Forgotten and men do fight it's as a test from the gods and they both maintain a healthy relationship when fighting Abaddon in the Realm of Torment and when the Forgotten inevitably choose humans to be their and the Brotherhood of the Dragons successors. Makes sense, considering they both worshiped the same deity.

    For the same reasons I mentioned above I find it unlikely that the level of technological advancement had something to do with whether or not humans negotiated with a given people. The Tengu certainly weren't an advanced race technology wise, at a glance both their tribes seemed downright barbaric as a matter of fact, but that didn't stop the Canthans from attempting a peace summit.

    Edit: So, i'v done some research into the subject of Forgotten contact with humans, and it varies by continent. In mainland Tyria the spread of humanity became too great and they were forced to pull back, this could be due to fighting, but it's also possible that they did this for the same reason they did not fight with the Canthans. During ancient Tyria Canthans nd Forgotten maintained a peaceful coexistence and one possible explanation for this is they did not compete for land or food resources, as humans spread through mainland Tyria that may not of been the case. Now because the Forgotten withdrew from the primary Tyrian continent doesn't strictly mean they came to blows, considering they served the same gods it's possible that the Forgotten chose to pull back rather then pursue a war for territory.

    The most direct form of conflict I can find between the two races is from Turai Ossa and the Elonian Pilgrims, who mistook the Forgotten for creatures much like the Hydra in the region, the resulting attack triggering a war that wiped Turai Ossa's forces out.

  • From its humble beginnings, this thread has become very entertaining ( and informative in many ways ). My thanks to everyone who participated.

    As someone who only played GW1 sporaticaly and then, only into Nightfall, I was never all that attached to the humans of Ascalon ( could have been the voice acting ;) ) nor revolted by the Charr's methods. They were clearly a primitive race of savage beastmen and acted as such.

    What I saw coming into GW2 though was the coolest beast race of any MMO. From the overall looks to the all fours running gait ( and yes even the hunch ). I knew rolling one that my new character would be hailing from an imperfect society where might makes right, much like a pack of predators on the hunt. A society where the military is the engine of developpement, both economic and societal. My Iron Legion warrior would be loyaly fighting for a system that couldn't last much longer ( whether he knew it or not ), headed by a commander-in-chief that actually saw the writing on the wall and was schrewed enough to attempt to re-invent Charr society to survive in a changing world... all the while making NO apologies for the victories of the past and the means taken to procure them. Because "Victory ... at any cost!" Isn't just a saying and when the dust settles, justification is left for the victors to decide.

    I like that they have issues, I like that they did questionable, moraly ambiguous or downright monstrous things without blinking in the past in the pursuit of military goals. "We retook our lands of Ascalon ( not because it's our ancestral land but) because we conquered it a scant few years before you took it from us" seems like a perfectly valid thought process for a society whose cornerstone seems to be "survival of the fittest".

    I also like that they have a progressive element that is making their world view evolve, peace treaties, commerce, acceptance of other races, etc... but still, a tiger may show you its belly and even let you scratch it... but it's not your pet.

  • I really love the contrast of the Blood legion homelands in that it's a very pretty place and Bangar similarly is very good looking. He reminds me a lot of Scar from the lions king and it really contrasts well with his actual plans, the juxtaposition of the party, the good looking map and a very good antagonist makes this my favorite character in recent memory.

    What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    As for early human history- it's very vexingly true that we know next to nothing about it, but I also find it telling that even the humans take it for granted that they were expansionistic warmongers. "They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over... Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We... took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility. " That's a very telling indictment.

    I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that what sets humans apart isn't that they have always been better, from a moral perspective, but that they've actively taken strides in that direction. In GW1, the PC skins charr, scalps tengu, and collects centaur manes. Other races the humans were in contact with, excepting the dwarves and arguably djinn, were universally treated by human societies as monsters. Yes, there was a peace between the Angchu and Cantha, but not understanding or acceptance. Now, though? In Ghosts of Ascalon, the human that still expressed the exact same mindset as most humans in GW1 was treated as being unquestionably in the wrong. Things have changed.

    The charr are simply at the beginning of their own shift. Up to this point, GW2 Iron Legion has been at a very similar place to GW1 Cantha. The traditional wars are over, and now it's a question of figuring out what peace is going to look like before they can try pursuing it. Which, to be fair, does not necessarily mean that the charr are going to wind up embracing equality and tolerance- Cantha didn't. It just means that they are going to have to start engaging with those questions and addressing them. The status quo isn't there to fall back on anymore.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    As for early human history- it's very vexingly true that we know next to nothing about it, but I also find it telling that even the humans take it for granted that they were expansionistic warmongers. "They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. This new race of creatures was none other than us humans, and in no time we began to take over... Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We... took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility. " That's a very telling indictment.

    I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that what sets humans apart isn't that they have always been better, from a moral perspective, but that they've actively taken strides in that direction. In GW1, the PC skins charr, scalps tengu, and collects centaur manes. Other races the humans were in contact with, excepting the dwarves and arguably djinn, were universally treated by human societies as monsters. Yes, there was a peace between the Angchu and Cantha, but not understanding or acceptance. Now, though? In Ghosts of Ascalon, the human that still expressed the exact same mindset as most humans in GW1 was treated as being unquestionably in the wrong. Things have changed.

    The charr are simply at the beginning of their own shift. Up to this point, GW2 Iron Legion has been at a very similar place to GW1 Cantha. The traditional wars are over, and now it's a question of figuring out what peace is going to look like before they can try pursuing it. Which, to be fair, does not necessarily mean that the charr are going to wind up embracing equality and tolerance- Cantha didn't. It just means that they are going to have to start engaging with those questions and addressing them. The status quo isn't there to fall back on anymore.

    In regards to history, humans are notoriously self flagellating about their own sins however. That's not to say those sins do not exist as they certainly do, but I wouldn't strictly say they are comparable with the Legions. You have your Minister Wona's, but you also have your Master Togos. Humans are horribly racist to other nations, but also capable of great understanding and empathy. Which is true of literally every species in guild wars as well as every person in real life, individuals are, after all, going to be individuals, with all the good, evil, and anything between.

    What makes the difference is the systems they are raised and work in though. You can have all the good intentions in the world but it will ultimately not matter at all if the actual society in which they work is too broken for anything valuable to be produced. The good can never triumph over the evil if literally every facet of your society grates against your ability to be a compassionate person without getting stabbed in the neck. Every day in the Charr empire is a day where Palawa Joko and Oswald Thorn would be the best candidate to rule. Might makes right, where the other nations of the Tyria are ruled by more then just power.

    That is the defining difference to me, and I figure that a lot of this season might be about the Charr transitioning to a system where your ability to rule is not defined by your capacity to kill.

  • Kahrgan.7401Kahrgan.7401 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

    If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

    The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

    be proud, charr forever.

    Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kahrgan.7401 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

    If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

    The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

    be proud, charr forever.

    Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

    I missed the other comment, but I love when people are called "traitors" for... not helping people who are literally A: not of their nation/group, and B: not even the same race.

    Like when Adelbern accused a Native Krytan, visiting Ascalon on a diplomatic aid mission, of high treason against Ascalon.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @witcher.3197 said:
    Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

    After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

    Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

    Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

    Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you DON'T get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

    I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is push us away on purpose. Why?

    been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @Kahrgan.7401 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

    If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

    The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

    be proud, charr forever.

    Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

    (in character as a charr hater)
    MOUSE?! LOOK here you oversized pussycat/goat faced ugos, now that you conquered all of Ascalon and slaughtered and eaten generations of people you want to make peace because you're being threatens by a greater power? A dragons. Just because your false Gods of the Titans and the cauldrons power have vanished I think it's time you reap what you sown.
    Time for Schrodinger's cat philosophy to happen. And this time you filled it with poison your self.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @witcher.3197 said:
    Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

    After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

    Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

    Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

    Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you DON'T get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

    I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is push us away on purpose. Why?

    been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

    On the other hand, though, people in the real world have also held onto grievances from much further back than the Searing. I was raised in a Christian household, and a significant part of that identity was a victim/martyrdom complex that was attributed to the actions of... Emperor Nero. A guy who, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five years ago, supposedly carried out some atrocities in a nation that no longer exists, in a city that none of us had ever seen, to people that we don't even vaguely trace our roots to. But it was, somehow, still a reason to both feel threatened and to indirectly blame the Catholics.

    Don't underestimate the capacity of a group identity to carry on a grudge long past the bounds of reason.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @witcher.3197 said:
    Like many others who grew up playing GW1, I've always loved pre-searing Ascalon. The place and the lore still has a special place in my heart, it's what truly hooked me into the franchise in general. I've leveled several characters to the point of getting the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and I still log in from time to time just because of.. "sentimentality" - as Bangar would put it. In fact, a lot of people do - in 2019 pre-searing Ascalon City is STILL the second most populated town in GW1 after Kamadan (the main trade hub).

    After GW2's launch I had to get used to the fact that Anet apparently despised everything about Ascalon, did a complete 180 and now we're supposed to not see the Charr as invaders, but allies. We help them kill ghosts of beloved characters over and over again, help them blow up statues, etc. That was a tough pill to swallow but I've made my peace with it.

    Yet Anet never misses an opportunity to twist the knife even more.. the first entry of the Icebrood Saga was fairly promising gotta say, but despite that it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

    Specifically the part where Bangar is playing the victim by saying something along the lines of "Why should we trust humans, they used to make armor out of our skins, treat us like animals, bruhuh :'( "

    Well yeah sorry if you genocide an entire kingdom after nuking it from orbit, burn the women alive, take children for slaves, eat prisoners, be the trigger of a cataclysmic event destroying another kingdom entirely (Orr) while simultaneously invading a 3rd one (Kryta), you DON'T get to feel sorry for yourselves. But apparently Anet doesn't remember that part of the lore..

    I guess my question is, why does Anet hate Ascalon so much? Why do they continously disrespect their own lore and try to push away a part of the people who are deeply invested in the GW universe? Why do you want me to hate something that I'm deeply attached to since childhood? Could you at least stop rubbing dirt in the wound? Pre-searing fans are people who care deeply about the world you've created Anet, on a level most studios/writers could only dream of. Yet all you've ever done since GW2 is push us away on purpose. Why?

    been 200 years since that happened. People change their mentality in that same period of time in real life. I mean Slavery/Jim Crow in America was like only 60 years ago and most people today dont even remember their mentality back then. So 200 years could do the same in Tyria

    On the other hand, though, people in the real world have also held onto grievances from much further back than the Searing. I was raised in a Christian household, and a significant part of that identity was a victim/martyrdom complex that was attributed to the actions of... Emperor Nero. A guy who, one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five years ago, supposedly carried out some atrocities in a nation that no longer exists, in a city that none of us had ever seen, to people that we don't even vaguely trace our roots to. But it was, somehow, still a reason to both feel threatened and to indirectly blame the Catholics.

    Don't underestimate the capacity of a group identity to carry on a grudge long past the bounds of reason.

    Agreed, and that I think would be even more true of both the Charr and humans. People overestimate how impactful the treaty is, my homeland went through a lot of such agreements and for the first ten years they were viewed more as just pieces of paper rather then bonds of lasting kinship. The war is fresh, and for that matter the Renegades and Separatists are still fresh. Humans experienced a bombing and Charr raid from inside it's walls not two years after the ceasefire was signed, and Sep activities have operations stretching from the Iron marches to Fireheart rise. If the Eclipse storyline is to be believed, that same fighting has been raging day and night for the roughly four years since it's signing.

    Those actions dredge up old hatreds, violence begets violence, it's a cycle.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Kahrgan.7401 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    O man....I hope the charr don't align them self's with dark powers like the searing days and slaughter the humans again.

    If they do maybe the Norn will help us this time instead if being traitors and allowing charr free rain to walk there territory.

    The charr need to leave the lands they invaded/stole and return them to human control. They need to stop slaughtering the ansestral ghost of the ascalonian people and further destroying the once beautiful lands they ruined. There can be NO PEACE otherwise.

    be proud, charr forever.

    Die mouse! (Not irl, just your character)

    I missed the other comment, but I love when people are called "traitors" for... not helping people who are literally A: not of their nation/group, and B: not even the same race.

    Like when Adelbern accused a Native Krytan, visiting Ascalon on a diplomatic aid mission, of high treason against Ascalon.

    But he was sadly a white mantel who in the end proved to be an enemy, not all in the white mantel are the enemy they may have stoped the charr but at a price kiled their own people in secert for being chosen which would have included the hero of ascalon and his henchmen, and hero allies.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Telwyn.1630 said:
    But he was sadly a white mantel who in the end proved to be an enemy, not all in the white mantel are the enemy they may have stoped the charr but at a price kiled their own people in secert for being chosen which would have included the hero of ascalon and his henchmen, and hero allies.

    A: Nobody knew the White Mantle had evil motives in Ascalon part of Prophecies.
    B: There isn't any indication they'd have taken people from Ascalon. That's too far a journey to frequently do across the shiverpeaks.
    C: Adelbern also refused, and is highly suspected of murdering the second ambassador that Kryta sent to Ascalon, asking for the Ebon vanguard to help them against the White Mantle, and in return they'd send food, medical supplies, and military support to drive back the Charr.

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