Let's Talk Feelings

Yesterday I joined WvW again after a 3.5 year break and although it was late in the evening and I was short on time, I felt right at home. People reviving me in defeated state, defending garrison and tower, retaking both, taking one enemy's garrison and then again losing our own again. All of which happened in 1 hour, maybe 1.30 hours. It felt great, we were horribly outnumbered at a time, but we faced all odds and got back what's "rightfully" ours.

Then it struck me. WvW with all the great fights and objectives, renown guilds etc still feels like a state machine, but without start or end. It feels like a sandbox but without the freedom and without the consequences of losing anything (perma-death, loss of equipment etc). It also feels like PvE in a way you cannot actually lose - unlike PvP, which definately hurts when you lose. I know, I know, it is bad if you lose an upgraded tower or garrison, but does it have any actual consequence on the match? From my experience, no - you just take it back. It might take a bit if the enemy havoc group or zerg remains present, but other than having to walk a bit longer to the battle there is no downside to losing. Actually you never really lose a match. It just ends, and then the team with the biggest number in an excel sheet wins.

Now, it does feel great to win a battle, even losing a battle isn't bad, because you and your team will get together and win at some point, but a triumph only lasts this long. There is no penalty, as said, other than walking back to the fight. Objectives just make the stage of a battle and draw players in, but their state is of no consequence to any team, they just increase the holding server's score.

With these things in mind, after we lost our garrison a last time that evening, I felt ambivalence toward it. Sure we lost a waypoint closer to Stonemist, but we will get it back soon enough. Then what, we were not enough people to take the fight to the server with the higher population at the time, and people were rather logging off anyway. What can I do, how can I help my server before going to bed myself. There must be something I can build or destroy to help them.

Moving on, I am proposing a change in design philosophy for WvW. WvW (similar to PvE) feels like it is on auto pilot, towers and keeps upgrade automatically, dolyaks bring in supply automatically etc. Objectives feel generic and don't impact the game as objectives should. Instead of taking away responsibilites from the players, give them all and more. Base building, troop management, resource management etc, all should be in players' hands . Make it actually feel like we are playing a huge RTS. Make walls more durable, but also increase time and resources to build them. Let players be architects of their base! Make them feel something for these structures, these safe havens for your people. No longer the objective game should revolve around flipping them, but actually raising them up from dust or turning them into dust! Let it burn! Make people stop and watch it burn!

There should be time to recover from defeats, learn from them and give a damn about things! It should feel great if you've just destroyed something big! Make the stage of WvW feel alive!

@Stephane Lo Presti.7258 Once we got that right, let's talk about scaling rewards for scaling investment.

good point on no real consequences. it sort of takes away the risk and excitement that comes with it. I don't think the way to go about fixing this is to make structures stronger tho.

It's a continious battle for a week, spvp and the like are faster paced thus losing might hurt more.

Anet can't even handle build templates or alliances in anything resembling a timely manner and you want them to change the core mechanics of WvW with consequence added on top of that? Good luck, pal. CU will probably be released before anything like that happens here.

I think most people here would agree with you on the general concerns and ideas.

The problem is that both your concerns comes down to the #1 issue people have raised here since 2012: Population balance

Purpose:It is population balance that stops us from realistically talking about rewards for matchup performance and laddering. Things that would make winning and losing feel more rewarding and purposeful (or just the sense of achievement for winning in more of a strategically fair environment, it doesn't even have to be rewards for most people, just that the sense of winning or losing actually represents gameplay). No one will care until those issues are adressed, we can't.

Objectives:The same goes for the will and purpose in restocking your defense objectives (or offensive outposts). If you face a server that you know will play when you and every other sensible student or professional is supposed to sleep, in your pre-designated region, then stocking things up will always feel pointless regardless of how much work you have to put in. In fact, in such a situation, the more effort you have to put in the more divise it will become. The old system relied upon running supplies and the current system relies upon running yaks. If you look at some groups that are dedicated in restocking, sieging and actively defending stuff with some form of resources, organisation and ability you will see that defending stuff isn't as bleak as one is first lead to believe in the current system. It's just that groups like that are rare or hardly exist at all to any form of close to full potential.

History:Until then we will keep asking for Population balance and ArenaNet will stall for years to come. If it takes them 2-3 years to consider any infra change (2014-2015), another 3-4 years to realize that they have to start looking at finishing what they started (2017-2018) and another 2 years (2019-2020) to just adress the backend issues of those changes or repair what they left unfinished years before ... well, then the timeframe for actually solving population balance, adding in rewards or competetive features and other related things of meaning and value looks pretty grim, no? You have to keep in mind that Alliances is basically just Megaservers (attempt 2, not even 2.0). It is fixing what they broke for WvW with Megaservers and never managed to implement there. It is the replacement plumbing of the server-pairing duct tape they put in some time ago that has been leaking since. That is all it is at this point, the chance to once again play with friends and recruit friends from the outside without gems. I'm looking forward to it, it will make me play more, but it is mostly because it will let me play with friends more reliably again. It's a reparation, bringing it in line with the past 5-year PvE standard, not an evolution.

It's not an evolution of the mode (relative old server population) and it's not an evolution of the game's standard. It is the usual treatment competetive gets, playing catch-up a few years later. Like how those modes got ways and currencies to get ascended gear or build legendary armor etc. I realize that I am sounding more grumpy than I am right now (jaded sure, but not angry), but that is a summary with alot of truth in it.

Remaining demography:The demography that remains on most servers (that I play on or face) seems to be represented by: underorganized restockers, different kinds of roamers (but few organized small-scale groups), pickup players and old/routine-cycling commanders (with dwindling commander numbers) and GvG guilds. Much of the middle-ground and lifeblood in the ecosystem is what we lack the most: PvX guilds are rare, smaller-scale groups that play as groups are rare and so-called fight guilds are getting increasingly rare. All of those are groups that birth future public commanders and often bridge gaps between the still existing groups. We still have the 1-2 scale, we still have the 15-scale and the 50-scale but we lack alot of the 5-10 scale, the 25-scale and the like. Those are the groups most sensitive to a purpose in the mode because the solo-duo roamers do their thing (often clouded), the pickups go through their motions (slowly cycling players around with more fizzle than rebirth) and the GvG scene seems to have more lives than a cat - every time you think it has died it tends to pop back up in better shape than you'd imagine (but still being small). Those most rare groups however are the groups that new players tend to start if they want agency of their own and those groups create alot of the starter content that supports the other content (groups that can impact larger structures alone/most effectively/with the least required numbers, create new commanders for future pickups and lets players learn basics before going competetive).

I'd like to end this (that grew into a-) gigantic rant on a positive note. In fact, tonight was what has become a rarity for me. I was roaming with a couple of friends from an old dead guild with friendlies in a random cloud, we met a trio of guild groups in the 5-10 scale from the Jade Sea server: ERA, MAD and Evil. It produced quite alot of what I would call natural content in WvW where fights were both open field and around objectives, with objectives trading hands and becomming increasingly difficult to claim the larger they got - but constantly were threatened and the content kept flowing for hours with little downtime, performance issues or onesided pushovers (or sour attitudes). It felt like WvW used to, so it was nice while rare. A shoutout to those guilds.

The only feeling of the WvW player base is that of abandonment.

No server fixes.No content.No balance.No communication.

Most players have given up on any hope that anything meaningful will come.

Soon™....

Been hearing it for years.

24+ guilds have quit the game. Watch the latest WvW dev stream. All they do is ktrain for hour and half and dont come across any enemies other then random roamers.

Abandonment.

Wow, ok, let's not do any that. I see your feelings and I'm not going to say they don't exist, but let's try and get a better fix on the problem first, yes?

You say that losing a T3 keep felt like it didn't have any consequences and you gave a few reasons why. My feeling is that losing a T3 keep feels like getting slugged in the gut by Mike Tyson. To parse the dissonance between our respective feelings, let's take a look at something that isn't based on how either of us feel.

A T3 Keep is worth 20 PPT.Each Yak that gets into the Keep is worth 1 Point.I don't have Yak timers for EBG on hand because I despise that map, but I'd estimate the keep gets ~2 Yaks per camp per tick for a total of 4 PPT.

So, all together, that T3 Keep is worth 24 PPT compared to a T1 Keep which is 12 PPT. A 100% increase.

Now, it's no secret that PPT is all but meaningless in terms of actually playing the game. It picks the winners at the end, but populations are so out of whack and the agency of outmanned groups is so miniscule that there's little reason to actually pay attention to the points. This is the real problem--not that no one had to work hard to build that T3 Keep.

You should also note that, outside of EBG, getting a T3 Keep can actually be a grueling ordeal. It requires rebuffing multiple assaults, controlling camps that are a good distance away, controlling the northern towers so those Yaks don't get killed by guards (for Garrison/Rampart) and making sure the Yaks don't get slapped. Unlike EBG, you don't have all of this sitting in a corner of the map away from the main action and it's easy for people to move about unnoticed so it's in no way automatic. On top of that, the Waypoint is FAR more valuable in the Borderlands where it cuts out much more distance and is used preemptively to install a scout if enemy activity spikes in the area.

If you add more layers on top of all that, it will be much harder to build a Keep but not much harder to destroy it. Even if you buff the walls (or, really, revert the nerf to wall health and the buff to siege damage), that won't make the Keep much harder to take as it's so difficult to destroy enemy siege. In the years you've been gone, siege health was doubled and you can now critically hit them and apply conditions...but siege vs. siege damage is the same since they don't crit and their condis are miniscule. On top of that, ACs were nerfed, catapults/trebs were effectively buffed and wall health was nerfed so the time-to-kill enemy siege using defensive siege went way up while the time to break a wall went way down. Throw in a bunch of new reflect skills and shield generators and you basically don't have any meaningful siege gameplay anymore. If a zerg shows up with supply, they auto-win unless they're really dumb or you have a bigger zerg.

We managed to repel a large enemyzerg last night from a t2 tower several times last night using well-placed seige, persistence, and supply. They ultimately only captured it because we were understaffed and peeled off to defend something else. Frankly, we forget to ask some one to stay behind and act as scout in such situations, so it is really our own fault. We also forget to remind players or teach new ones about simple mechanics that would help. Like were to place seige, what seige to place of you're under the gun, and talking in team chat instead of map in emergencies so you can pull from all maps. Also, since dying really doesn't mean much, get in their and do something crazy if they are gonna win anyway. Sometimes crazy works.

Sure there are times when you do everything perfect and still get faced rolled, and it hurts. When I was ET there were times I was literally the one ET'er on all four maps and we held nothing. Anyone logging on would immediately leave after seeing the state of things. I made my own fun, even built a character that could solo towers. If I did enough, it encouraged others people to come and we would take stuff back. These days wvw isn't that dire. And despite the what seems to be a malaise, every night I see people who care, and they grump about because they care too much and it is frustrating to seem like everyone is stacked against you. But there can be joy to be had in the challenge.

Frankly, I think the equalizing they are planning will take my passion away. I will miss the people I don't really know but fought along side of for years. But I guess that is a challenge for another day.

Thank you for your elaborate comments. I've been out of touch with the community for a while and apparently it shows. So the picture is ok, but the frame isn't. Let me try to find suggestions better suited for the actual problems as outlined in your posts.

We got a general population problem in WvW which are caused by underdevelopment of the mode compared to PvE and probably even PvP, low level of rewards (coming from PvE), pull, and accessibility (among others). Furthermore we got the issue of highly imbalanced matchups which is exacerbated by long durations of matches.

I think low rewards are actually connected to the length of matches. From a design perspective you'd probably create some reward budget per activity. Each activity is weighted against difficulty, duration, etc, so if there is an activity which runs for a whole week compared to ~1:30 hours it is probably seen as easier content, thus lowering its rewards per day. This leads me to the proposition of dividing the week into 7 matches. A match takes one day and is either played on a BL or the EB. Basically I suggest rotating through the borderlands twice and finally playing the final match on EB.

This results in the following outcome or possible consequences:It caps the overal population by a lot and balances population since (I think) only 500 players may join any WvW map. For a single server it is much easier to field ~167 players on one map, than that amount times 4 for any given time.It makes it possible for ANET to design rewards per day. What they could do is add a time gate to rewards. Players may earn some reward once per day after, let's say, ~1.30 hours of regular play. While this draws in fresh blood, if the rewards are good, it also prevents players from burning out. This also promotes some sort of hand-over between players, hence more people may join WvW.It somewhat closes the gap between night crew and day crew and results in a build up play. I expect population to reach its peak in prime time, so daily matches could be enhanced with some sort of big PvP event so all matches end with a bang. Or just leave them as they are :)It changes how WvW is played. People will probably look at the current day differently whether they have to defend their home BL for that day or attack the BL of their opposition. Sometimes you have to defend, sometimes you have to attack.Matches reach their climax on the last day when everyone meets in EB.Maps are locked. This might be undesirable for some, but I think it is a good idea to add shortages to a game of abundances.Each day may be evaluated and weighted on its own given they are played mostly exclusively on someones BL. Some servers are expected to win, some to lose and it is somewhat easier to look at a day individually than a whole week of play.WvW might become less accessible due to the lowered capacity. It might also be possible for ANET to increase capacity per map since they only have to worry about a single one at a time. They might also choose to enlarge maps a bit (as seen in PvE) to allow for more players.In the future, ANET could add maps which have different flows, themes, objective play, siege play etc and end in their own climax.

Got carried away a bit, sorry for that. Might have even missed something in the heat.

Overall these suggestions feel better than the ones proposed in the op because they align better with the root issues. It might hurt to reduce availability of WvW, but I'll take (over-)crowded maps any day over minutes of outnumbered "buff". It is just theorycrafting but most of this already makes me feel better :)

I can only reiterate what I said in my last post, but I will give you a more condensed answer:

All of those things that you have identified and mention they are problems that exist. However, they are only secondary problems. That is how dire it is.

The mode has several first tier problems that exist on a far more fundamental level:

ArenaNet are stalling on the Alliance system. The Alliance system will fix fundamental broken things like being able to recruit players from outside the game to the mode. Today, that is hidden behind a pay-wall. An old friend comming back to play with you? Pay-wall. A PvE player looking to WvW with you? Pay-wall. Your guild dying and you wanting to find a similar guild that only exist elsewhere? Pay-wall. Your server dying and you wanting other players to play with? Pay-wall. That is what the Alliance system looks to rectify and it is ridiculously fundamental. That it has not had a higher prioritization is beyond every possible critique. It has been a problem since 2015.

The second issue is population balance. See, when the WvW mode was made. It was made around a specific balance that has always been broken. If they make regions they should balance around that. That they made regions was likely for tax- or market reasons but that does not really exhonorate them for not taking regions into account when piecing together other core systems for WvW. That is a fundamental design error. They also added a queue system. In part for performance reasons but also for balance. If maps WvWvW are 100v100v100 or whatever they are, there is an implied balance in that. Not piecing togther the other pieces of the puzzle to be in line with that is also a fundamental design error. That has been a problem since 2012.

Nevermind that we even in 2019 have to wait in queues to get to play WvW with our friends is ridiculous since there are game design ways to design around that without pushing the limits of server performance or whatever other limiting factors you may find. They have simply not cared enough to finish the core design of the game mode. They made a half-committed attempt 5 years ago that they also never finished and have only recently begun talking about finishing piece by piece recently, with the Alliance system being the first piece.

Everything else that the mode needs or players want is below that.

The latest additions to WvW is what made it more unfun. They removed a lot of the danger with mounts, they added more safety with upgrades and made towers upgrade quicker and mostly about avoiding fights. The desert borderlands didn't serve the players who were looking for fights with its overall maze marathon running and vertical design, with tall keeps with overpowered defenders advantages. WvW keeps being unpolished with bugs that never get fixed.

My feelings are basically the opposite of the op. I'd be opposed to anything that makes losing more consequential bc it's so hard to get ppl to fight even now when there is no consequence for losing . . .

Automatic upgrades are the same thing, even when all they have to do is hold a camp and not let the yaks get killed, can't seem to get anyone who wants to manage even that :/

I feel like I've been tricked by the title.I went and got candles and a zamfir CD and everything

@LetoII.3782 said:I feel like I've been tricked by the title.I went and got candles and a zamfir CD and everything

Well, based on other threads there's nothing to say we have to stick on topic. If you need a friendly ear we are here for you. ?

@Optimator.3589 said:Anet can't even handle build templates or alliances in anything resembling a timely manner and you want them to change the core mechanics of WvW with consequence added on top of that? Good luck, pal. CU will probably be released before anything like that happens here.

I wouldn't hold my breath for that either.It seems they need at least 2 more years of development before they produce something presentable to the wider audience besides their backers.Unless they stumbled upon a money tree you are stuck with GW2 WvW for the foreseeable future.Hope this was helpful.

@XatraZaytrax.2601 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:I feel like I've been tricked by the title.I went and got candles and a zamfir CD and everything

I noticed a long, grey eyebrow hair the other day. I'm afraid I'm going to be one of those old dudes with massive, bushy eyebrows and it troubles me deeply.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@XatraZaytrax.2601 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

I noticed a long, grey eyebrow hair the other day. I'm afraid I'm going to be one of those old dudes with massive, bushy eyebrows and it troubles me deeply.

On the flip side your eyebrows could become epic and much admired by others. I knew an archaeology professor who was known locally and in his field as much for his work on Easter Island and South America as he was for his epic eyebrows. This man was married multiple times and well into his golden years was admired by local women.

@XatraZaytrax.2601 said:

This man was married multiple times and well into his golden years was admired by local women.

See, that's what I'm afraid of.Another one would kill me for sure.

! 1. Maps like alpine need to be remastered with mounts in mind, the space needs to be increased and it needs to be brought in line with the quality of maps today. (Some Jormag Icebrood would be cool in the center. Mordremoth, for the desert borderlands)! 2. Edge of the mists is a good pointing ground, I like the Idea of taking over monsters/creatures and getting unique gameplay from them. Imagine becoming Icebrood and getting jormag themed abilities that help in sieges? Or branded, Or jotuun or kodan/tengu you name it.! 3. We need one more new map added to the rotation so each color has a unique stomping ground from one another, We have a desert and we have an alpine we could use something like a coastline or jungle. Spice of life and different maps equals endless hours of new play because it changes up what you'll be doing and where, and how to do it. Dropping everyone into an open field is not fun, giving them new ways to engage and disengage as well new places to fight is what will give you the most retention.

• Rewards are lack luster and we need more nuance to them and more long term goals. Placing WvW themed mount skins within the tracks and extending them could be good (For the warclaw of course.) As well maybe make a generation of WvW Legendary Weapons which are different from the ones we currently have, PvE has two generations asking for one for our game mode is not much to ask for. It would also be cool if keeps and structures actually change based on your GUILD HALLS theme, so when you claim them they will look more unique based on what guild hall you have. We also could use more cadence to cool things we ourselves can do and acheive, the mastery line and trait-lines within the WvW tab need a hard look at and rework. The more they give us to chew on the better it will be, the higher your level on the WvW field the better your chest rewards should be? Perhaps a guaranteed choice between specific pieces of loot? Perhaps WvW exclusive skins, armors and loot that look cool and fit the idea of fighting within the mists.

We also have characters like glint within the mists why can't we get them to fight with us? Or have them help hold objectives, why can't we have for example fonts of power we fight for control over that give our bases unique guards? For example in Eternal battlegrounds we have hylek and ogres we can fight over but they are hardly more than an annoyance? Why not spin that on its head and make it have impact and worth doing. Not something you just ignore?

Eternal battlegrounds needs a bit of an overhaul skin wise, its pretty stale and for "The Eternal battlegrounds" It feels less like such and more like just some random plot within the mists.

just glossed over thread so might have missed something. Anyways there can logically never be a population balance, its impossible. There are always gonna be fluctuations in attendance. Only way I can think of is a lobby entrance for each map, where you wait your turn, and the maps are constantly balanced. One player leaves and a player from each other map gets kicked to the lobby, no other player can join map unless each enemy server have corresponding number of players waiting.

@Pawlegance.7012 said:This leads me to the proposition of dividing the week into 7 matches. A match takes one day and is either played on a BL or the EB.Which would only hasten the demise of WvW.

One of the main reasons WvW is still played is because we can relate it, it feeds our weekly lives.How was last weeks matchup? Mjeh second place but we are winning this week!How about reset? Looking forward since tuesday because we are getting roflstomped.What about next week? We won so will be moving up a tier, might be hard.

If you remove this it all becomes a pointless, meaningless blur.How was the 5th matchup last week? I literally have no idea what I was doing that day.Do you look forward to the 3rd matchup next week? I'm only in the 4th matchup this week, how the kitten should I know?!You won the 2nd matchup, do you think you'll win the 6th? I. Literally. Dont. Care.

You can see this in practice ingame too. Go ahead, join the sPvP lobby and then ask people wjat they thought about their 28th game last week (from last friday). Was it any good compared to the 27th? Did they perform better in the 29th?

I would be interested to hear the response. And after that, you can ask them about the balance a short matchup bring.

You are right that auto-upgrades, tactics and abundant supply is making the gamemode overly simplistic. Also the fact that they lowered upgrade times and made each skirmish matter as much as another, regardless how hard you lost, reduced the weight of ones actions. Before a few players playing against 30 could make a huge difference by minimizing losses, now they just flat out lose skirmish and might as well log out during timezones they're weak.

You have the right idea that peoples actions and objectives need to have more weight behind them. However part of the reason behind that is not only that objectives upgrade too fast, but also the fact that attacking requires less thought and defending is easy. Before ACs countered catas and well coordinated group could take down ACs as soon as they're built which gave an opening to defenders. Now shield gens make any other siege useless so taking down objective walls and gates is super easy strategically. But defending is also super easy combat wise because respawn is faster, EWPs and increased stats. Meaning both combat or strategical battles are won simply decided by which side you're on.. Attackers get in easy, defenders win the fight easy, perfect balance? Not for me.

Some people claim "WvW doesn't have enough population for manual upgrades anymore" but somehow the server I was on was still managing 12 hours a day with less than 20 people, half of which was with around 5 people. It was just about being smart, not about numbers. Each day you had to battle to keep supply up, siege refreshed, escort dolyaks, save camps, communicate, keep track of enemy groups. Even if you failed to take something, you caused enemy major supplyproblems so you didn't feel bad about it. Now almost all of this is obsolete and using your brain with it. Not saying we need all of it back but at least shield gens and amount of supply could be hit quite heavily. Auto upgrades I am kinda fine with as long as they up the upgrade times, for example from 20/40/80 dolyaks to 25/50/100 dolyaks. Claim buff stats should also be reduced or even removed so strong groups can have long battles within keeps and towers.

@Optimator.3589 said:Anet can't even handle build templates or alliances in anything resembling a timely manner and you want them to change the core mechanics of WvW with consequence added on top of that? Good luck, pal. CU will probably be released before anything like that happens here.

ANet at least have a game out, unlike camelot unchained. Yeah, they're slow, but they at least got to that stage already.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Optimator.3589 said:Anet can't even handle build templates or alliances in anything resembling a timely manner and you want them to change the core mechanics of WvW with consequence added on top of that? Good luck, pal. CU will probably be released before anything like that happens here.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Optimator.3589 said:Anet can't even handle build templates or alliances in anything resembling a timely manner and you want them to change the core mechanics of WvW with consequence added on top of that? Good luck, pal. CU will probably be released before anything like that happens here.

Believe me, I'm not hyping CU. That flame has long since flickered out. Its release is much akin to the proverbial pigs flying, and about in line for my expectations of Anet doing anything to halt the decline of WvW.