Pistol Identity Crisis and "a strong, ranged option"

Alright, so I'm hoping that this doesn't get lost in the sea of negativity that is this board, but let's try it anyway.

I've been playing Deadeye since shortly after release. It's great fun, the new Mark skill is absolutely fantastic (I finally use steal, and all the time to boot), and Rifle is, quite frankly, a great weapon, even if I don't use kneel as often as I should because of all the hazards to avoid even in big group fights.

But all the same, it really fills its purpose of a powerfully strong ranged option for Thief that only gets better if you're willing to sacrifice mobility.

The problem?

It overshadows everything else, even with that loss of mobility in exchange for devastatingly high damage (yes, rocking a near 40k crit on a legendary boss as its bar breaks with full might and malice is delicious to behold). Shortbow and Pistol simply don't compare terribly well, but it's on the latter that I'll focus for today.

On Identity and the Pistol

Pistol was, and still is, the only other ranged option for core thief, and the only other firearm (in terms of flavor) for deadeye. Over the years has it gone through a lot of flux, specifically with regards to its first two skills and Unload, but more on that in a moment.

Desperado aesthetics aside, the pistol has something of an identity crisis -- it can't seem to decide whether it's a condition weapon, or a power weapon.

Let's look at Vital Shot, shall we?

Listed, it's 211 base damage, 57.5% power contribution, and 4 stacks of Bleed for 88 damage. Not bad, right?

That 88 bleed constitutes about 40% of the overall damage before Power, however, and if we assume 2200 Power and 14 stacks of bleed (308 per second, unmodified, for 4 seconds), each pulse of bleed will only deal about 1/10th of the physical damage you'll deal in the same period of time.

For a power build that's ... quite the let-down.

And that's what I wish to address.

Vital Shot is the only attack on dual pistols that inflicts damaging conditions. You need a dagger in one hand to really get access to more conditions (poison, additional bleeding, and torment, in this case).

Therein lies our crisis of identity. What is pistol? What is it trying to be? Why have half of its skills languished for years, yet those which see practicality in PvP and WvW been refined again and again (as well as to retrofit the damage bonuses from Ricochet)?

Perhaps the better question is: as fun as it is to play, why isn't it seen more often in PvE content, regardless of specialization?

There's really no indication as to identity here, so perhaps part of the problem is that this lack of identity is influencing its favor amongst players.

Obviously it has conditions, but immobilize and vulnerability both rely on Expertise, not Condition Damage, and Daze is immutable in those regards. This forces Pistol into a rather uncomfortable position of being split between good base damage, but poor application. It really only shines if you're running a condition-critical hybrid, but by then you've sunk points into 5 different attributes, and that means making even more sacrifices for modest gains.

The problem: uncertain identity hampers builds

Okay, so, let's illustrate what I'm trying to get at here.

This is a build that represents a lot of free-time for the average PvE player to collect all the Living Story ascended gear for this, as well as obtain / craft the requisite gear. It focuses entirely on doubling bleeding duration to capitalize on its auto-attack, and drag out just a little bit more duration from its other conditions. With the ability to fight with near-constant Fury, the 74% crit rate will see some very solid damage dealt, thanks to 191.33% critical damage.

Condition-Pistol hybrid Thief: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAoqlFw6YYsLGJO+LbrTA-zRZYmBzmYFJNQYUUAhJg/A-e

Not bad. Not great, but not bad. The might generation from Unload really amps up the damage potential, but even then vital shot is only bringing +151 damage per second at 25 stacks of might.

This results in a theoretical 2519 damage per second. On a critical hit, this becomes 4681 damage per second. Note that conditions don't scale with this.

Here's what I've been running lately, more or less.

Power / boons Deadeye: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAoqlFw6YYsLGJW2XnvfA-zRZYBJNUfgbKEE6BORCOFuQg0hgCTB0yEQNDA-e

You see only 39 extra base damage increase and much worse condition contribution, at only +67 damage even at 25 stacks of might.

All the same, this results in a theoretical 2585 damage per second, already better despite condition damage being the dump-stat. On a critical hit, this increases to an astounding 5754 damage per second, far eclipsing the more specialized build (with traits chosen specifically for conditions!).

Even under ideal circumstances against a foe at or below half health, Vital Shot, Might, and Fury alone can only bring the condition-spec'd build to 5617 damage per second, which is still below a build using a less-than-ideal weapon.

A solution: Pistol, as a Power Weapon -- and Bows for Bleeding

My solution is an overall uplift to a weapon set which sees rather ... well, frankly abysmal damage across 3 of its 5 skills. The bleed damage should be on Shortbow instead, bolstering its already lackluster auto-attack, Trick Shot, and cementing its identity as the "condition-oriented ranged alternative." This frees up pistol to be the "power-oriented" option -- and helps align much of the changes I'll lay out momentarily.

All of this, mind you, is inspired by the Unload skill, which is phenomenal for stacking Might and has incredible and well-sustained damage output if you're smart with your triggers.

The big problem to address, and will be illustrated below, is the poor damage of most of Pistol's skills. Oddly enough, I can find no fault in the dual-wielding skills, which complement their builds well -- even Unload, in theory, which itself sees good synergy and holds parity with Rifle's kneeling Spotter's Shot in terms of damage output. That and it's just fun to use.

So, onto the revisions.

Vital Shot - Original

• Damage: 211 (0.575)
• Bleeding (4s): 88 damage

As previously described, Vital shot has the stats above, less its range and combo details, taken off the wiki. It was last modified in October of 2016, to further increase its base damage.

Compared to Brutal Aim, which has 253 base damage and a scalar of 0.6, it doesn't seem half bad when you consider the higher base damage. However, even with the bleeding, the still comes out at 97 damage higher with 2200 Power. Respectable, and about what we'd anticipate.

So let's adjust that.

Vital Shot - Revised

• Damage: 233 (0.6)

This adjustment, despite the loss of Bleeding damage, gives us a 25% uplift in damage output, not only bringing it in line with what it did originally, but making it effectively more competitive by exceeding it per-attack. The main focus here is that pistol is sacrificing range for raw power, and we've reflected that. It now comes with 20 points of damage output of rifle.

Body Shot - Original

• Damage: 92 (0.25)
• Vulnerability (5 x 3s): 5% increased damage from all sources
• Immobilize: 1.5s
• Initiative: -4

This is pretty good if you ignore the rather wimpy damage of this attack. Even compared to Vital shot, it's poor: 642 vs 1476 before revision. You're obviously not using this to hurt your foes, so much as to get away and make them weak to a followup attack. Against anything with a break-bar, however, it's just a short-lived dip to their resiliency.

Last modified in May of 2017 to use the improved immobilize duration from PvP modes, it's clear that the focus has been competitive balance, more than much else. It's a utility skill, and one with limited reward.

Comparing it to Skirmisher's Shot on rifle, which does 377 base damage with a scalar of 0.8 and a piercing cripple attack that gives you swiftness (and costs only 3 initiative!) ... it's actually rather awful. The only benefit here is that immobilize, which is more effective for an escape or kiting about.

Let's capitalize on that, shall we?

Body Shot - Revised

• Damage: 280 (0.65)
• Vulnerability (5 x 3s): 5% increased damage from all sources
• Immobilize: 1.5s
• Vigor: 4s
• Initiative: -4

The addition of vigor sets us up to immediately dodge roll away, putting distance between us whilst minimizing the cost of a dodge by recouping a portion of the endurance spent. The enhanced damage also brings it in line with the Brutal / Skirmisher dichotomy, wherein the latter outperforms the former at the cost of initiative. Thus the boon generation and conditions inflicted feel appropriate to the cost, and establish synergy for additional attacks during a tactical retreat -- like pumping a few rounds into them with Unload.

Headshot - Original

• Damage: 92 (0.25)
• Daze (0.25s): unable to use skills
• Initiative: -4

Now, the fact that Daze is an interrupt means that the timely usage is both great for break-bars and for telegraphed attacks. Exchanging 4 initiative for the equivalent of a free dodge is pretty great. The fault here, however, is not that it's a potential escape from harm, but rather that it seems as though our character is just ... reaching out and flicking the ear of our enemy to distract them a bit.

No comparison to rifle this time, as Death's Retreat is, well, a retreat. And you can get that with Shadow Strike (or Shadow Shot if closing range would be better).

But for the sake of being comprehensive: Death's Retreat has 127 base damage and a 0.3 scalar, already outstripping Headshot, removes a condition, and poisons foes in a small radius at your starting position. Wow.

Oh, and ... Headshot hasn't been modified since it was added to the game in August 2012. At release.

Headshot - Revised

• Damage: 210 (0.575)
• Daze (0.25s): unable to use skills
• On interrupt: 210 (1.15)
• Initiative: -5

Expressing this one in text will need to be the job of the skill team, but in short: overall the damage has been boosted to about 1475 damage at 2200 Power -- if you interrupt your foe with the daze, this jumps to double the Power contribution, and a whopping 2,740 damage. This more than makes up for putting it back to 5 initiative cost. Thematically, it's kind of the idea of exploiting a target's vulnerability; a poorly placed shot will mostly just daze your target, but "hit the weakpoint for massive damage" (ugh, I just said that).

Moreover, it presses the tactical use of the skill -- as a potentially high reward for consuming an appreciable amount of your initiative!

Black Powder - Original

• Damage: 92 (0.25)
• Blind (2s): next outgoing attack misses
• Pulses: 3
• Duration: 4 seconds
• Interval: 2 seconds
• Initiative: -6

This one, frankly, is pretty good where it is. The self-combo blindness results in both a ranged and area blind, albeit rather expensive for what it is. Having not been modified since September 2014, before the trait and specialization overhaul, it feels like another skill that has slipped as once again the damage is not only poor, it's well below what the basic attack would give you, and that just doesn't make much sense.

The tricky bit, however, is that while the rifle offers Sniper's Cover -- which deals no damage and blocks missiles for 5 seconds -- they aren't really equivalent, so a comparison is a little difficult to make here.

Black Powder - Revised

• Damage: 186 (0.48)
• Blind (2s): next outgoing attack misses
• Pulses: 3
• Duration: 4 seconds
• Interval: 2 seconds
• Initiative: -6

Mostly this revision just bumps up the damage, boosting it to about 1242 damage at 2200 Power -- lower than the others, as the skill flavor specifically calls out firing a "black powder shot," and thus keeping with the flavor of the windup and animation. Overall, however, I'd not really touch anything else, save perhaps to lower the initiative cost to 5, because it is the single most-expensive skill for Thief, and it's certainly nothing like any of the 5-Initiative attacks from other weapons (or even Unload) -- however, when compared to Infiltrator's Arrow the pulsing AOE utility makes up for the cost.

Wow that’s a long post.

I’ll get back later on the rest but the thing you have to understand is that it is a hybrid weapon. Not power or condi but both. That’s by design an it means that it benefits from all the mixed stats/runes that produce hybrid output.

People forget that might adds to condi damage as well. Unload was always a bit hybrid but leaning heavily into power.

Contrast with P/D which is hybrid but leans more heavily into condi.

That is really a nice and well thought post. I was thinking about pistol being a hybrid weapon, yet its usefulness is severely limited for my test without the richochet (good old days). It can still annoy people in wvw or pvp but not that strong in my opinion. I would gladly accept any (condi or power) reworks to make pistols stronger and useful in wvw and pvp.

This forum as actually a lot more positive than you give it credit for, might want to peruse through a few pages and gauge it.

Pistol might be a little stale but just going by these forums alone the builds people use with it cover power, condi, and hybrid. It's not only the type and amount of damage a weapon is dishing out, but the utility and mechanics of the skills; how their animations physically reposition you, what they open up on a target, and what they might be setting up for something else. Sword/dagger shouldn't be a good condi kit but it's a good courier and the condi can come from other sources aside from the weapon. Pistol/pistol was for roleplay videos, we can't act like it was ever supposed to be a serious kit even if it can be built into a gimmick. Pistol and shortbow were utility to get us in and out and around melee range as offhand and secondaries, Rifle is an elite that opens up something new for the thief like a legit ranged option to make a serious build out while being hampered up close.

No, no, no, no, I totally disagree.

Main hand pistol is Condition damage and Off-hand pistol is Power. This supports the P/D and D/P builds very well.

As for P/P, this build should have its own 5-skill bar utilizing both pistol in all of its attacks and it should be full on Power based with high agility (rolling, sliding, evading, etc).

By extension, D/D will be a Condition based 5-skill bar utilizing both daggers in all of its attacks that is also high agility.

The way this will work is that, instead of flipping skill#3 when dual wielding, if the same weapon is equipped in both hands, all 5 skills flips.

This will ensure that changes to single-hand pistol will never affect P/P and changes to single-hand dagger will never affect D/D.

P/P and D/D will basically be treated as a 2-H weapon.

EDIT: typo

I actually think the main thing holding hybrid thief back is forced trait allocation (DA for poison and Trickery for torment) and the fact we're a minimum vitality class. Full grieving DE with rifle and P/D on SA 323 DA 321 DE 111 has surprisingly good power damage and 4k condi ticks, but is clunky to play without trickery and with only base health it is forced to play hit and run in situations that a power thief could press an advantage. To me at least, stat wise, hybrid makes more sense on daredevil. Sadly.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I actually think the main thing holding hybrid thief back is forced trait allocation (DA for poison and Trickery for torment) and the fact we're a minimum vitality class. Full grieving DE with rifle and P/D on SA 323 DA 321 DE 111 has surprisingly good power damage and 4k condi ticks, but is clunky to play without trickery and with only base health it is forced to play hit and run in situations that a power thief could press an advantage. To me at least, stat wise, hybrid makes more sense on daredevil. Sadly.

You can get up to 16.5k health if you use Grieving on the trinkets and Carrion elsewhere.

@saerni.2584 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I actually think the main thing holding hybrid thief back is forced trait allocation (DA for poison and Trickery for torment) and the fact we're a minimum vitality class. Full grieving DE with rifle and P/D on SA 323 DA 321 DE 111 has surprisingly good power damage and 4k condi ticks, but is clunky to play without trickery and with only base health it is forced to play hit and run in situations that a power thief could press an advantage. To me at least, stat wise, hybrid makes more sense on daredevil. Sadly.

Yeah, I don't like the loss of crit chance and damage then tho. I'm fully willing to admit this is a problem I cause myself tho haha xD

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I actually think the main thing holding hybrid thief back is forced trait allocation (DA for poison and Trickery for torment) and the fact we're a minimum vitality class. Full grieving DE with rifle and P/D on SA 323 DA 321 DE 111 has surprisingly good power damage and 4k condi ticks, but is clunky to play without trickery and with only base health it is forced to play hit and run in situations that a power thief could press an advantage. To me at least, stat wise, hybrid makes more sense on daredevil. Sadly.

Ah, I just don’t think of it as a huge damage loss. The loss of crit isn’t that much if you pair it with Thief Runes.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I actually think the main thing holding hybrid thief back is forced trait allocation (DA for poison and Trickery for torment) and the fact we're a minimum vitality class. Full grieving DE with rifle and P/D on SA 323 DA 321 DE 111 has surprisingly good power damage and 4k condi ticks, but is clunky to play without trickery and with only base health it is forced to play hit and run in situations that a power thief could press an advantage. To me at least, stat wise, hybrid makes more sense on daredevil. Sadly.

Do remember that with a DE in an SA/DE/DA build you can still go for the combination of Protection out of Mali 7 +flickering shadows+ the Iron sight with (in WvW at least) an added 10 percent damage reduction via food. That means when protection kicks in there sources of 33+33+10+10 mitigation that can happen at the same time. Add in weakness off the combo of lotus poison coupled with deadly ambition and steal poison adds and you can mitigate a whole lot of damage.

The advantages offered by DE over DD here are of a different type but noticeable and especially if you weave in and out of stealth with all of the DE added sources for that Flickering Shadows while maintaining high protection uptime via sources of boon duration so as to get the Mali seven kick ins to overlap.

@"fluffdragon.1523" said:The big problem to address, and will be illustrated below, is the poor damage of most of Pistol's skills. Oddly enough, I can find no fault in the dual-wielding skills, which complement their builds well -- even Unload, in theory, which itself sees good synergy and holds parity with Rifle's kneeling Spotter's Shot in terms of damage output. That and it's just fun to use.

The thing with Unload is that it is more of a "baseline skill" like Double Strike. The reason why D/P (as a weapon set in terms of synergy) works so well is also the the reason why P/P does not. Both Double Strike and Unload fill essentially the same role as the main source of sustainable damage for the set, the difference here is that the rest of the weapon set on D/P does a good job supporting Double Strike while most skills on P/P are either redundant or work against Unload. The reason for this is the initiative cost on Unload which makes you choose between attacking and utility. Double Strike on the other hand is cost free meaning your utility skills can be used to support Double Strike. Just imagine ArenaNet slapping a 3 ini cost on Double Strike, the set would be almost unplayable without the player heavily investing into ini regen and even then you would still suffer from the same problems P/P is suffering from rn.

Another problem for P/P are redundant skills like Vital Shot, we already have Unload as our "AA" (which is also a much better fit for the weapon set thematically) so there is not much use for it other than resetting our malice count on DE.

Like Sir Vincent III said at this point it would be for the best if they just give you 5 dual skills if you equip 2 pistols. Make unload the cost free AA it should have been from the start and compliment it with 4 other skills e.g.: an engagement skill, a disengagement, a small scale AoE skill and some CC. If they think that would be "to OP" with all the stealth skills thief has access to then they could just make unload apply the Revealed debuff to the player. P/P isn't supposed to be stealthy anyway, that's what rifle is there for.

See, the funny thing is that in PvP and WvW Pistol/Pistol is actually a lot stronger than rifle. Whereas in PvE, it suffers from its auto-attack being pretty garbage. Unload spam isnt able to go forever, and you cant even do malicious resets because you have like no stealth access. The issue is that pistol/pistol is torn in its identity. The mainhand version is clearly a condi weapon, and in fact sees decent usage in the P/D condi build. The off-hand version is a melee-supportive weapon (black powder is pretty bad at range), and the dual attack is a power skill. I dont see a way to change the main or offhand skills without hurting 2 already functional and fun builds, so my suggestion would be, change unload. Make it a condi-skill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:I dont see a way to change the main or offhand skills without hurting 2 already functional and fun builds

Then don't change the main and off-hand skills, just replace them with more dual skills if necessary. There is nothing stopping them from doing so as it wouldn't affect any other set.

@UNOwen.7132 said:so my suggestion would be, change unload. Make it a condi-skill.

Lol no, the vast majority of players who play P/P are using a power build because they like the fast paced run n gun gameplay unload provides and A-Net clearly understands that which is why they used a P/P thief as the icon for Be Quick or Be Killed which is a trait solely focused on increasing power damage. Turning it into a condi set just wouldn't fit here.

@Tails.9372 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:I dont see a way to change the main or offhand skills without hurting 2 already functional and fun builds

@UNOwen.7132 said:so my suggestion would be, change unload. Make it a condi-skill.

The thing is, turning it into a condi-skill wont change the fast-paced run n gun gameplay. Ranger Shortbow is that kinda gameplay and its entirely condi. It will change the build, and the dynamic with, say, condi clears, but not much beyond that.

@UNOwen.7132 said:The thing is, turning it into a condi-skill wont change the fast-paced run n gun gameplay. Ranger Shortbow is that kinda gameplay and its entirely condi. It will change the build, and the dynamic with, say, condi clears, but not much beyond that.

Actually it would, traits like Invigorating Precision require power damage which would be a huge hit to it's survivability and general QoL which is something I know many people would have an issue with. Also, there is still no point in changing it up to condi. Your initial issue was that you don't want to change the other builds which would be taken care of by using more dual skills and if we ever get access to a torch which isn't to unlikely then we pretty much have another mid ranged condi weapon and being overshadowed by another e-spec weapon set (again) is the last thing P/P needs.

Sustained mid ranged power dps is a niche other weapon sets are most likely not going to cater to anymore which makes it the pect fit for the weapon set especially since that's how most people are already playing this set anyway.

@Tails.9372 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The thing is, turning it into a condi-skill wont change the fast-paced run n gun gameplay. Ranger Shortbow is that kinda gameplay and its entirely condi. It will change the build, and the dynamic with, say, condi clears, but not much beyond that.

The problem is you cant just go "oh, more dual skills". P/P will be weak as long as anything but the third skill dont fit the weaponset, and you cant change any of the other skills because theyre already used in other builds. The only bet P/P has is a change to unload. Or you just accept the current situation as the way P/P is gonna be forever, thats your choice if you so desire.

I like your suggestion for Headshot. The skill has fallen into disrepair for a long time now, and rewarding skillful use with an extra chunk of damage if you manage to interrupt something would be nice

Similar for Vital Shot. As someone who has tried both p/p and p/d - it's terrible, and could really do with some changing (perhaps combined with UNload, as other users have mentioned) to strike a condi/power balanced split between p/p and p/d.

However, I think you have totally misjudged the usefulness of Body Shot. It is extremely useful even as it is now. It is already very useful just for locking down opponents so you can kite and/or land Unload more easily. The Vuln is nothing to sneeze at, either, even if it only serves to prevent the immob from being immediately cleansed by tiny scattered cleanses sometimes available. I don't really think this skill needs a boost (except, perhaps, adding 5 extra vuln stacks if an opponent is below 50% or something), and that's because...

Concerning Black Powder - your suggestion won't work without upping the radius, which would be a significant buff on its own. THe radius is at 120 currently. I don't think ANY class has a melee attack with range so short they would have to stand in the black powder circle in order to attack the thief. It just isn't worth using the vast majority of the time except for to use the smoke field and MAYBE in a bit of kiting if you want to hug the edges - but even then, it's unlikely your opponent will stand in it long neough for you to gain any benefit, even in the middle of a teamfight. To...summarize - there's already a near-zero chance of getting any in-combat use out of it except for stealth. Upping the damage sounds nice, but it will stil do nothing if you can't get anybody to stand in it. Further, blinds are already strong, so I would rather just up the radius and leave it at that.

Such a buff would have body shot (still) useful for kiting, and black powder a little better for using if/when the user happens to get stuck in melee range. But I do think that adding damage and vigor to Body Shot is far too much. There's a huge difference between cripple + swiftness and an immobilize.

As an aside, I don't see any mention of pistol's stealth attack, which imo could use some love. It's either extremely strong in a niche scenario (DE, rifle/p-d hybrid setups) or...meh, otherwise. Perhaps a small utility buff, like Chill /ini refund if all hits land. But that'd just be icing on the cake if anet takes the time to mess around with the other skills, so eh. Like it's not horrendously awful, and I enjoy that it becomes a decently dangerous skill with high might - but so does everything else...blah blah etc etc.

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The problem is you cant just go "oh, more dual skills".

Except I can, there is nothing that would prevent them from expanding the Dual Wield system to more than one skill if the situation calls for it. The main problem here is getting them to take action in the first place but that's not really an argument as the same thing can be said about pretty much any issue.

@Tails.9372 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The problem is you cant just go "oh, more dual skills".

I would love to see more duel/flip skills (if that's what your referring to - things like pistol-dagger 3, right, where if one lands another skill becomes available?)

There's definitely nothing preventing more flip skills as long as the new flip skill available retains the original skill's purpose - that is, flipping body shot to a dedicated power or condi damage skill would make things difficult for either p/p or p/d users, but if it just flipped to a skill that helped lock down mor and more, that'd be cool. Same for headshot - flipping to a high power damage skill would be meh, but having it flip to a stun + vuln on successful interrupt (for example) would be excellent.

@Tails.9372 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:The problem is you cant just go "oh, more dual skills".

There is something. The fact that you have to do it A, on all weaponsets, and B, would as a result fuck up said weaponsets. Too much collateral.

@Curennos.9307 said:I would love to see more duel/flip skills (if that's what your referring to - things like pistol-dagger 3, right, where if one lands another skill becomes available?)

There's definitely nothing preventing more flip skills as long as the new flip skill available retains the original skill's purpose - that is, flipping body shot to a dedicated power or condi damage skill would make things difficult for either p/p or p/d users, but if it just flipped to a skill that helped lock down mor and more, that'd be cool. Same for headshot - flipping to a high power damage skill would be meh, but having it flip to a stun + vuln on successful interrupt (for example) would be excellent.

Pretty much, the most important thing is to create a working weapon set with a decent amount of synergy between the skills. If weapon combos lack this synergy then adding more dual/flip skills to them is probably the best way to address these issues without causing collateral damage to other sets. For example this is what they could to to P/P:

On weapon skill 1:

Vital Shot is replaced with Unload (both the ini cost and the ini refound are removed fom the skill, maybe add X seconds of Revealed to the skill if they want to add a penalty to it)

On weapon skill 2:

Body Shot is replaced with a new dual skill which moves the player towards the enemy.

On weapon skill 3:

Repeater is replaced a with small scale AoE attack which utilizes both pistols

On weapon skill 4:

Headshot can stay as it is

On weapon skill 5:

Black Powder is replaced with a new dual skill that puts some distance between you and the enemy

.

@UNOwen.7132 said:There is something. The fact that you have to do it A, on all weaponsets, and B, would as a result kitten up said weaponsets. Too much collateral.

Except they don't, there is no point in changing up weapon sets which already have a good amount of synergy between their skills unless one skill is underperforming and turning it into a flip skill would solve the issue. Of course if there are other weapon sets which suffer from synergy issues they should also be adressed accordingly.

@Tails.9372 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:I would love to see more duel/flip skills (if that's what your referring to - things like pistol-dagger 3, right, where if one lands another skill becomes available?)

There's definitely nothing preventing more flip skills as long as the new flip skill available retains the original skill's purpose - that is, flipping body shot to a dedicated power or condi damage skill would make things difficult for either p/p or p/d users, but if it just flipped to a skill that helped lock down mor and more, that'd be cool. Same for headshot - flipping to a high power damage skill would be meh, but having it flip to a stun + vuln on successful interrupt (for example) would be excellent.

@UNOwen.7132 said:There is something. The fact that you have to do it A, on all weaponsets, and B, would as a result kitten up said weaponsets. Too much collateral.

They do. You cannot have dual attacks be inconsistent between weaponsets. Either all of them only change 3, or all of them change 2-4. You cant pistol change 2-4 and the others dont.

@UNOwen.7132 said:They do. You cannot have dual attacks be inconsistent between weaponsets. Either all of them only change 3, or all of them change 2-4. You cant pistol change 2-4 and the others dont.

Of course you can have different weapon combos with different amounts of dual skills, there are no technical restrictions which would prevent something like that. Your whole issue seems to be solely based on keeping irrelevant consistencies but it ultimately doesn't matter whether or not a weapon set has one or five dual skills. What's most important for a weapon set is that skills synergize well together and provide a solid gameplay experience. This is relatively easy to archive when designing 2H weapons but 1H weapon combos have a bit of an issue here which is something that luckily can be addressed pretty well by using dual skills.

For the love of God, please please please fix P/P. This has been pretty much my main/only weaponset since 3 months after GW2 launch. I've been committed to it through all the badness. Even if it's only for one, brief, shining moment, I'd like to wield them with joy and pride.