Nerfing permastealth Backstab builds without kittening thief further

Been a lost of discussion thrown around lately about oneshot back stab builds being able to 1 shot from stealth. The best fix would be to nerf damage across the board, but failing that how about this.

Any stealth that is gained from a combo field, whether its a leap or blast is separated from stealth gained through traits and skills. In other words, much like how mesmer stealth like mass invis doesn't stack with thief stealth, stealth gained solely through combos (like leaping through blind fields) wouldn't stack with stealth applied via skills and traits. This would make it much more difficult for troll perma stealth 1 shot builds to pop out of stealth with an 18k backstab and vanish again for another 30 seconds while it waits for cooldowns. If this isn't enough and people want to go to further extremes, additionally make each stack of stealth gained through combos to be completely unstackable with every application of stealth in the game including additional combos. This nerf wouldn't affect thieves that weave in and out of stealth during a fight but would hinder stacking it out of combat and ambushing an enemy for their entire health pool.

Was going to post this in a WvW/sPvP section but figured I'd need to deal with the "I hate thief and stealth so much they should both be deleted" people. Hoping to get a more level headed response here.

What do you fellows thieves think?

I think raising the ttk ratio of higher hp/sustain classes while maintaining a lower ttk for lower hp/sustain classes needs needs to be implemented at the same time as significantly lowering stealth access and back stab dps.

I'd like to see something like you can stack as much stealth as you want but stealth attacks disable after the stack reaches 4 or 5 seconds or something like that. I still like stealth for masking direction and getting across lanes and people should be afraid of a backstab lurking around but they should be able to at least think about a counter.

Just get rid of stealth on dodge, and now also the stealth on heal. No compensation is even needed. Neither of these need to be in the game nor are they needed for a DE to be effective. We have more than enough tools to gain stealth without them.

@Turk.5460 said:Just get rid of stealth on dodge, and now also the stealth on heal. No compensation is even needed. Neither of these need to be in the game nor are they needed for a DE to be effective. We have more than enough tools to gain stealth without them.

This would leave the malicious back stab build untouched however. As they don't need stealth on dodge or on heal to perma stealth. 4 heartseekers through a blind field is how they achieve their invisible approach and burst. This change would damage other builds that weave in and out of stealth. Furthermore, I think my suggestion removes far more stealth than dodge on stealth and stealth on heal.

EDIT: The heartseeker combo stacks 12 seconds of stealth. Whilst healing stealth and dodge stealth can only stack 7 seconds. Further more once those 7 seconds are up the thief has no heal and probably a single dodge. Whilst once the 12 seconds are up, the back stab build has recovered its initiative spent stealthing and suffers no consequences.

@"Turk.5460" said:Just get rid of stealth on dodge, and now also the stealth on heal. No compensation is even needed. Neither of these need to be in the game nor are they needed for a DE to be effective. We have more than enough tools to gain stealth without them.

That doesn't address the real problem. Deadeye's concept should had never been on thief precisely because high stealth uptime, high spike damage and range are the trifecta of things you should never give one build where range has the kind of advantages this game gives it. Thats why core Thief is so heavily balanced around its stealth as a defense, while DE doubled everything to the point that it obtained "pre-balance Rouge" status. Shortbow mobility already gave thief a semi-broken level of advantage, and Steal's only counter balance is it can only brings you closer into the target. And thats on top of the fact limited stealth skills never stopped thief from having too much stealth via smoke/leap combos.

Its entire balance edict is "glass cannon" that sits on a razors edge. Because a "lucky shot" (when its visible) is the Only counter attack to something you can't effectively target. Stronger AOEs is another option, but that breaks the game in multiple other ways just to combat ONE class.... more specifically ONE MECHANIC. But simply increasing the number of reveals doesn't work, because that is thief's entire defense kit, and half of Memser's PvP defense kit. I'm even starting to think Dare Devil would had been a better baseline for core thief, since it has strong offensive and defensive options that don't revolve exclusively around stealth.

Malicious attacks are just regular stealth attacks, but stronger. The additional stealth access give them more opportunities to use it, even more power to disengage and change position at will, can attack from ANY position with the advantage, and the ONE thing that can properly expose them has too low access/low duration across the game, AND is either short ranged AOE or has to have them targeted while their already visible, AND on the off chance you do tag them with Reveal, they can purge it.

We're at the point where its effectively impossible to reign this in without utterly destroying either Thief Stealth or Deadeye as a concept.

Make blasts and leaps through smoke fields not apply stealth. Problem solved.

Just to get a clear understanding, what exactly are the problematic "Backstab builds" specifically?

Are we talking just Malicious Backstabs? Or any glass cannon/perma-Stealth Backstab build?

Deadeyes get the extra damage for Malicious Backstabs. But Thieves can perma-Stealth and Backstab without Deadeye.

Personally, I think Dagger Thieves need very strong Backstabs... that's supposed to be their devastating attack. However, I don't really care for Deadeyes getting the exclusive damage boost for Backstabs... seeing that the Deadeye was designed to be more of a ranged marksman, not an assassin necessarily.

So what I would suggest is this. Change Malicious Backstab to have normal Backstab damage, but a completely different effect with Malice. Instead of Malice providing extra damage, perhaps Daze a target for 1-second per Malice (or 3/4-second if that's too strong... but remember that Tactical Strike already gives a 2-second Daze, and Mace Head Crack gives a 3-second Daze... a possible 6 seconds each Steal with Improvisation). Or, instead of a Daze, maybe 1/2-second of Immobilize per Malice? Not as difficult to cleanse, but can be lethal if not cleansed quickly. Anyway, the goal is to make the Malicious part more debilitating to the enemy than directly lethal.

And in turn, make all Backstabs completely ignore non-armor/Toughness damage resistance if striking from the rear/flank. It will go through blocks, Aegis, Protection, Retaliation, Stability, immunities... everything but evasions. It will give every Dagger Thief a big incentive to flank the enemy to get the hit in, and it will make it well worth the risk of melee.

Oh... and for the love of all that is holy, remove the 1-second cooldown!!!

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:Just to get a clear understanding, what exactly are the problematic "Backstab builds" specifically?

Are we talking just Malicious Backstabs? Or any glass cannon/perma-Stealth Backstab build?

Both, I've run into core d/p thieves that can still back stab for 19k, however I think the DE varient is more problematic.

Deadeyes get the extra damage for Malicious Backstabs. But Thieves can perma-Stealth and Backstab without Deadeye.

Personally, I think Dagger Thieves need very strong Backstabs... that's supposed to be their devastating attack. However, I don't really care for Deadeyes getting the exclusive damage boost for Backstabs... seeing that the Deadeye was designed to be more of a ranged marksman, not an assassin necessarily.

In an ideal world back stab should never hit for more than 10k, but personally I don't think oneshot builds should be prevalent at all. So that aside, my other problem is a thief being able to stack over 10 seconds of stealth consistently and then back stab for 18-20k. If a thief wants to stack that much stealth then they should be forced to burn through countless utilities, to the point that if their burst fails they're 100% dead. But this is not the case, because after they stack their 12 seconds of stealth in the blind field by the time their stealth expires they have regenerated all their initiative. So IF the burst fails, they still have full initiative and all their utilities off cool down to escape and reset their burst. That is whats problematic about these builds. They risk so little for such a huge reward. My proposed changes would force these builds to use their utilities to stay stealthed, whilst also forcing stealth stacking with a blind field to be incompatible with stealth from utilities. Thus perma stealthing using only initiative would no longer be a thing.

So what I would suggest is this. Change Malicious Backstab to have normal Backstab damage, but a completely different effect with Malice. Instead of Malice providing extra damage, perhaps Daze a target for 1-second per Malice (or 3/4-second if that's too strong... but remember that Tactical Strike already gives a 2-second Daze, and Mace Head Crack gives a 3-second Daze... a possible 6 seconds each Steal with Improvisation). Or, instead of a Daze, maybe 1/2-second of Immobilize per Malice? Not as difficult to cleanse, but can be lethal if not cleansed quickly. Anyway, the goal is to make the Malicious part more debilitating to the enemy than directly lethal.

This would nerf the damage sure, but thief is still more than capable of 1 shotting without DE, and it doen't solve the problem of thieves perma stealthing with little cost to their utilities.

And in turn, make all Backstabs completely ignore non-armor/Toughness damage resistance if striking from the rear/flank. It will go through blocks, Aegis, Protection, Retaliation, Stability, immunities... everything but evasions. It will give every Dagger Thief a big incentive to flank the enemy to get the hit in, and it will make it well worth the risk of melee.

This would be a huge mistake. Back stab should require timing and have counters. Your proposition would make it so ridiculously easy to one shot everybody. Thieves that perma stealth up to a target out of combat and one shot them from stealth shouldn't be a thing. Weaving in and out of stealth I think is fine. Stealthing for 10 seconds, then backstabbing and then stealthing for another 10 seconds before backstabbing again (and around and around it goes) is not fine.

Oh... and for the love of all that is holy, remove the 1-second cooldown!!!

I like this actually, forces you to time the skill and not just spam it.

@"Doug.4930" said:Weaving in and out of stealth I think is fine. Stealthing for 10 seconds, then backstabbing and then stealthing for another 10 seconds before backstabbing again (and around and around it goes) is not fine.

If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to Lotus Strike (the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites.

Can we trade slots... Assassin's Signet and Basilisk Venom? :-D

Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

Just as long as we don't forget the reward part! ;-)

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites.

Going glassy should be a

risk

, no matter the class.

Swapping it makes sense actually, I'd forgotten about break bars in PvE since I do open world on my roaming build and rending shade, tactical strike and smoke screen will break most bars pretty quick while solo. Go for it ^^

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to Lotus Strike (the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

Both of these sugestions would work too I think.

However, this would still leave perma stealthing in the game, despite defanging the build significantly. Would the community at large be happy with thief still having access to perma stealth without it having access to one shot backstabs?

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to

Lotus Strike

(the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

Honestly, there's so many counters to stealth now that people don't really have the excuse anymore. Unless people want to discuss toning down defensive and offensive mechanics on other classes, I don't even think we should be touching stealth, frankly, I'd just rather see the change I suggested if we were in a situation where things were gonna get nerfed further. Nerfing an OP build by forcing meaningful choices so you can't have everything in that build creates more viable builds overall (choose for damage or for survival), and is better than nerfing everything and leaving only one viable option that's only half decent. I'm a thief main tho, so there's my bias.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to

Lotus Strike

(the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

Yes, sometimes the simplest solution is the best. If backstab damage of either kind is deemed too high, why not simply reduce THOSE numbers? Whether by tuning down the base damage of MBS/BS or by simply changing Assassin signet so it does not add any power (540 is a lot). In today's WvW there are more than enough tools against stealth users, the "Target painter" being something any player can have in their inventory, and use for only 10 supply for example.

Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

@kiwiez.5162 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to

Lotus Strike

(the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

The problem is that nerfing base backstab damage isn't healthy for the class as a whole. Daredevil can hit 20k backstabs against glass targets out of nowhere (I've been hit by them myself) and DE can hit 18k on a one malice backstab on the right target, these instant spikes with no warning are usually what people complain about. Deadeye can hit harder with malice, but after you've let the thief build malice it's not exactly a surprise attack anymore, so I'm not considering that for now. If base backstab damage was lowered, daredevil would have no reason to use backstab over vault. Deadeye however would be fine, as it still has the extra damage off malice stacks, so all it loses is the potential for the instant one shot.

Assassin's signet turns a 10-13k backstab into a 15-18k backstab all by itself, so to me if there's changes to be made, assassin's signet is where they need to be done. It's comparable to the situation with sic 'em on ranger, deal with the one thing that pushes damage over the top and everything else is actually ok. Changing the signet also has the effect of reducing the absurd AoE damage a glass staff thief can do spamming vault, which I guarantee you is the next thing people would complain about if backstab gets gutted.

Again, I'm saying if. I'm only ok with assassin's signet being nerfed/moved if other classes also lose some of their ability to one shot, so the increase in time to kill is global. Deadeye in particular is supposed to have higher single target damage as a trade off for losing steal, but core and deadeye still have to be viable.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

Got to agree with this tbh, although I find magebane easier to deal with than a competent engi with lock on. Might be a playstyle thing that tho.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep.

This alone is what turns me off of using a Backstab build as a Deadeye. It's just so awkward when moving from Core Thief/Daredevil. Both the loss of the shadowstep as well as the cast time of Mark. It just feels so slow and clunky.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

But does it deserve enough damage to one shot professions from stealth? Im not convinced. Although I do agree that this is probably a problem with all classes in general.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

True, but I'm not talking about nerfing thieves utilities to grant less stealth. I am soley focusing on combo fields stacking stealth. Shadow arts stealth duration trait actually has no effect on combo finishers. Shadow arts or not, leaping through a blind field grants 3 seconds of stealth.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

Again you're right which is why I don't want to nerf skills and traits. However there is no counter to a thief perma-stealthing out of sight and approaching undetected. My problems is one shot builds that don't actually fight, they just pop up back stab and reset.

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

I think thieves are pretty good 1v1 at the moment, I certainly don't think they need buffs. It makes more sense to bring over performing classes down to thieves level. Although I would add that marked in WvW really really really neeeds a rework. I don't like perma stealth back stab builds at all really. But 2 seconds followed by a 5 second reveal is way too much. But other than that I think thief is in a good place even for 1v1's.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@kiwiez.5162 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to

Lotus Strike

(the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

So if a change "needs" to take place, is not changing/tuning down Assassin Signet the best solution? Re-balancing the one skill that makes MBS/BS damage "over the top" would be the most reasonable solution i would imagine.

@kiwiez.5162 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@kiwiez.5162 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:If that's the problem, then just have Backstab be available only for the first 5 seconds after entering Stealth. Make it flip to

Lotus Strike

(the 3rd skill in the autoattack chain) afterwards. Heck, make a missed Backstab flip to it now instead of having the 1-second cooldown.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

Yep, that's my opinion for sure.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

This only works on D/P, and obliterates D/D's signet synergy because all of the other signets except IS are worse on D/D than D/P as it is.

BV is an absolute requirement to play D/D power in any meaningful capacity with the dependence it has on CnD, and all this change really does is buff the permastealth builds more than anything, since SMeld isn't necessary for one-shot-kill D/P builds seeing as their stealth and mobility issues are already handled by D/P's core skills. SMeld makes it easier, but it doesn't make the build concept work better.

Sustained stealth is the problem, and attacking it is the only viable solution. Single-stealth backstab has tons of counterplay and high damage is justified. It doesn't matter the source. If D/P ends up too weak, they can drop initiative costs (notably on BP) and D/D ends up the damage kit while D/P ends up the control kit.

@Doug.4930 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Malicious Backstab deal that much damage because DE doesn't have a shadowstep when using DE Marks. Compare to Core, DE has to walk up to the target before they can backstab. Steal gives Core a tactical advantage due to shadowstep. IMO, DE deserve the ridiculous damage from MBS since losing the shadowstep on Steal is the tradeoff.

In WvW, yes. The only professions that gets one shotted deserve it for building glass cannon. Many players in WvW are smart enough to put on some toughness and vitality to prevent getting one shotted. Those players took that risk, they have to live with it.

Now extended stealth is not that great if you don't take Shadow Arts. Extending stealth is necessary for DE in order to get in position due to the loss of shadowstep on Steal. Extending stealth is what Shadow Arts suppose to do so I don't agree on changing this.

At the cost of full bar of initiatives. Without SA, you cannot replenish your initiatives fast enough. So even if they can stack stealth using leap, they cannot do anything else since they have no initiatives. Plus, without Meld with Shadows' movement speed boost, you cannot get into tactical position without shadowtep on Steal. There are so many hoops to jump through to get that perfect MBS. Without SA, a DE backstabber has a higher chance of failing a backstab.

So now it comes down to counterplay. There are many counters to stealth and they simply do not want to take it for whatever reason. Spellbreaker has the most OP anti-stealth kit (ugh, how I hate Magebane Tether).

As I've said. One shot only happens against glass cannon. If you don't want to get one shotted, get some buffer. There is a standard 2600 armor and 15k health to prevent getting one shotted. If your stats are below this standard, you deserve to get one shotted since you took that risk.

As for other professions without counterplay, well, then the changes has to happen to those professions instead of trying to change the Thief. The recent changes to Shadow Arts puts the Thief where it's suppose to be -- an expert at stealth. Now if ArenaNet can improve our 1v1 capability so that we can actually be "deadly in one-on-one combat" as our job description says, then we're good.

Thief cannot do 1v1 that's why it is resorting to sneak attacks. It is by design. Thief needs to have more access to tricks like interrupts/daze.

For instance, Burst of Agility (Trickery) should cause all the Thief's attacks to apply a 1s daze with 1s CD per ammo, 6 ammos, 60s CD, when you attack from flank or behind and will not activate from stealth. The ICD is to prevent the daze from stacking when Quickness is active. This will make Thief deadly in one-on-one combat without resorting to sneak attacks. The current iteration of Burst of Agility is lame.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:I'd make assassin's signet an elite skill. It's the main reason backstab builds do enough damage to one shot, so make the thief choose between damage and survival in removing reveal with shadow meld, or general defense in daggerstorm, and the problem will fix itself. People can still get the damage, but if it doesn't work they're gonna get easily punished for it.

This also has the advantage of not directly nerfing any specific thing in any spec, it just forces a meaningful choice between one shot level damage and the survival elites. Going glassy should be a risk, no matter the class.

Like I say, I'm fine with basilisk being swapped with assassin's signet outright, so you'd still have access to both skills. The point was more to force a contest between assassin's sgnet and daggerstorm/shadow meld, as those are the "get out of jail free" defensive skills in one shot builds for the most part.

The reason I'm thinking like this is that pistol offhand isn't strictly necessary for DE one shot either. You can permastealth off of sniper's cover and heartseeker, so D/D is actually as viable on DE as D/P if you play correctly, and honestly outside of the instant damage potential of backstab, all the big bursts are telegraphed in some way. Assuming the goal is to rein in all one shot builds overall, it makes more sense to address assassin's signet than it does to address permastealth, as the only way you're going to finally deal with that is by removing smoke field combo finishers for stealth, and balancing all stealth skills around set durations. That requires significantly more work, so I guess I'm going for low hanging fruit here.