Revert chrono rework — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Revert chrono rework

Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 26, 2019 in Mesmer

Let's see how people feel about the new chrono
Personally, I hate that monstrosity

Revert chrono rework 141 votes

yes
80%
TheSlothArmada.6709Kryil.6045BinaerHamsteraer.7396Hevoskuuri.3891Roy G Biv.1625Kravey.4563Alek Seven.2374Levetty.1279Me Games Ma.8426Gryxis.6950phokus.8934Kylden Ar.3724Xstein.2187Daishi.6027DarkwindStrike.7930AllNightPlayer.1286Donn.9024Anna.7845Menaka.5092Nighthelm.6427 113 votes
no
19%
derd.6413HyperLooser.2698Durzlla.6295PurebladeProductions.4875Zaraki.5784flog.3485BadMed.3846InsaneQR.7412mrauls.6519Hannelore.8153Curennos.9307Ghos.1326Daniel Handler.4816Oshi.9324Lincolnbeard.1735Yannir.4132viquing.8254BlackBullWings.2734Aetatis.5418Trianox.3486 28 votes

Comments

  • Was hoping that we’d get to provide some feedback about some of the changes like they tried to with WvW, especially considering the state that chrono is in, but that seems like a big nope now.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    Was hoping that we’d get to provide some feedback about some of the changes like they tried to with WvW, especially considering the state that chrono is in, but that seems like a big nope now.

    To be fair, they're still going ahead with the hot button scrapper changes- so its not like there was much hope to begin with

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2019
    yes

    Tbh, I'd be fine with some QoL rework. The entire no shatter without clones change makes the class clunky, especially when still available with other mesmer builds.

    In an ideal world, they'd rework clones again to either work with no shatters without clones on all builds, or all builds work with some baseline shatter.

    I can live with the F4 change. The loss of distortion from F4 hurts but can be managed. To be honest, they could remove distortion entirely for chrono from F4, it's just clunky with CS mixed in.

    As far as WvW, there is issues which remain and have been the main problems for mesmer in WvW since the beginning of the game:

    • clone survival in large fights is non existent
    • the ramp up for shatter skill uses with clones is to long/not possible with current clone design. The payoff is not big enough for the time and effort investment
    • most mesmer unique utility skills were gutted beyond belief over time leaving the class in a worse spot and undesirable for WvW (except for the 1 portal chrono in squad)
  • no

    Spend the time restoring illusionary persona to Chrono. Everything else can wait.

  • yes

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Let's see how people feel about the new chrono
    Personally, I hate that monstrosity

    revert the game ez

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭
    no

    Chrono is perfectly fine now. Get mirage fixed the same way too please.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    no

    I'm not for a chrono rework revert as it was as a super-core spec.
    But ofc, chrono isn't fine now.
    Should they change wells or increase illusions vitality on chrono (like we had with old signet of illusions.).
    No IP and a counterpart to CS by sacrifing distorsion is interersting in the sense that we can end up with a different gameplay from core. Now they have to continue their rework to make it viable, because we all agree (apart no-chrono players) that's is unviable and clunky actually.

  • It completely blows, yes. But not for the reasons you might think. The irony is that now we're back to phantasm sustain, which is what they wanted to get away from in the first place. That's how it goes when you nerf the hell out of what you did to fix it to begin with.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @azzardome.9184 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Let's see how people feel about the new chrono
    Personally, I hate that monstrosity

    revert the game ez

    where is that option

  • YtseJam.9784YtseJam.9784 Member ✭✭✭
    yes

    Like stated above and I've stated in many other threads, the 1 clone shatter restriction makes the class unusable and affects its playability in multiple ways. Clones die too quick, or die when A target dies (while you have still many other mods attacking you) and you miss your split second opportunity to shatter. You lost so much by adding this requirement, you lost your ability to remove condis, to gain stability, to distort, to gain boons, to stun, and many other things by just this 1 little change. It is a way too big trade-off. I would be happy if they remove this restrictions, since the rest of the changes you can adapt to except this.

  • yes

    I love how "no" replies are basically memes about "delete mesmer entirely" and jokes. Kinda shows that in sooth nobody really likes those changes. Even the guy who said No said that IP is awful.

    Let's just hope anyone from upstairs actually reads any of this.

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭
    yes

    revert this joke

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    revert pof

    fixed

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2019
    yes

    Please at least remove the requisite clone for shatter skills. It's so dead in pvp/wvw because of this restriction (there are many others causes, but this one is so obvious)
    "Lost Time" new trait is just a joke, why not a trait on wells, like Scourge : 10 allies/foes, + a bonus of concentration or else, or a trait that recharge CD of allies when you inflict slow, shatter a clone etc.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sandsavant no longer raises target cap to 10

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭
    edited December 26, 2019
    yes

    As far as I am concerned, I registered to this forum SPECIFICALLY to complain after they butchered chrono. Don't care of deadeyes oneshotting you from perma stealth -which in WvW it gotta be pretty nasty-, never cared of holosmiths being able to get back from 2% to 80% in one second, didn't feel the need to complain because warriors are indestructible damage sponges, I endured hunters doing nothing but waiting for their goat to slam that 10k charge and weavers being able to dance out of everything... I mean, whatever, there are some specializations which are tough to deal with and it's fine to me, but the game is FULL of power creeps and stupid kitten builds, they never cared one bit and the one time they do is to butcher a specialization which was already very niche -because it had nothing besides that one-shot meme; no sustain, no mobility, no defence. kitten guys, was placing the one-clone requirement on CS only so much difficult?

  • yes

    Well, more people voted for the rework %wise than the Tory party.
    Now sit back and watch the Tories be in power and nothing change [email protected] democracy 😂

  • Kryil.6045Kryil.6045 Member ✭✭
    yes

    I am an insanely casual player. So much that I only log into GW2 when a story releases and maybe once a month for a WvW evening. After a longer break this time I decided to play some support chrono and boy: this is insanely bad. I know I'm not used to it, but there's no point in getting used to this level of clunkiness. Chrono got nerfed again and again (and often justified), but this level of playstyle destroying changes is not acceptable.
    Also: 0-clone shatters with Restorative Illusions and Bountiful Disillusionment was your bread and butter for survival, and it's gone without any replacement. But I could somehow get around that with some adapting. But it still plays like garbage.
    A rework should not turn a fun class into a clunk-machine :/

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kryil.6045 said:
    I am an insanely casual player. So much that I only log into GW2 when a story releases and maybe once a month for a WvW evening. After a longer break this time I decided to play some support chrono and boy: this is insanely bad. I know I'm not used to it, but there's no point in getting used to this level of clunkiness. Chrono got nerfed again and again (and often justified), but this level of playstyle destroying changes is not acceptable.
    Also: 0-clone shatters with Restorative Illusions and Bountiful Disillusionment was your bread and butter for survival, and it's gone without any replacement. But I could somehow get around that with some adapting. But it still plays like garbage.
    A rework should not turn a fun class into a clunk-machine :/

    If you struggle in pve, imagine now PvP and WvW :)

  • yes

    the chrono is not the only thing that died, the mesmer is in a rather bad position now. The only option that I have is to shatter because Anet like this mechanic and made it mandatory. It seemes like every sustainable phantasem is dead or nerfed to oblivion. I created my Mesmer when the game was released and loved it, it was different than other classes and a lot more fun in my opinion. I created a build that complimented my gamestyle. I left the game after heart of thorns and returned a week ago, part of the skills got changed and nerfed, why do I need to taunt with a phantasmal defender? GW never used taunt and relied on smart gameplay, something that I don't feel as possible with the current Mesmer.

    Sorry, but I couldn't find how to vote in the poll.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhinala.1739 said:
    the chrono is not the only thing that died, the mesmer is in a rather bad position now. The only option that I have is to shatter because Anet like this mechanic and made it mandatory. It seemes like every sustainable phantasem is dead or nerfed to oblivion. I created my Mesmer when the game was released and loved it, it was different than other classes and a lot more fun in my opinion. I created a build that complimented my gamestyle. I left the game after heart of thorns and returned a week ago, part of the skills got changed and nerfed, why do I need to taunt with a phantasmal defender? GW never used taunt and relied on smart gameplay, something that I don't feel as possible with the current Mesmer.

    Sorry, but I couldn't find how to vote in the poll.

    All nerfs is a byproduct of their incompetence.
    For an example their rework of phantasms and sooner nerfs of all phantasms into oblivion because chronophantasma(chrono) to the state its bad even with CP and infinitely worse without. Or taking away IP from chrono (for unknown reasons), deleting its traits, nerfing staff because mirage and pretty much every build have to use DE to produce clones, sword nerfs that havent seen changed for 5 years but suddenly "too much evasion with mirage" but aftering nerfing it to normal evade duration it wasnt reverted (rip vigor) etc

  • YtseJam.9784YtseJam.9784 Member ✭✭✭
    yes

    I was so "amazed" today on how they said they "listened to our feedback" and quickly changed the stupid skins on the Lunar Year weapons, but we've been crying our hearts out here for over 6 months and not a single reply from the dev teams.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    no

    to late revert .. only go forward

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    yes

    @lare.5129 said:
    to late revert .. only go forward

    Everyone knows that. The point is to tell Anet that their redesign kitten sucks and had no purpose. And major fixing is now needed. They seriously need to stop this redesign for redesign bull kitten, and just focus on why things do not work and fix them. Instead of creating far more unnecessary issues.

  • nanomidgy.9180nanomidgy.9180 Member ✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020
    yes

    Yes please revert the shatter machanics rework, they are basically none functional in wvw right now.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020
    no

    I will continue the discussion here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try
    Because I derivate too much on mesmer topic.

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.
    Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

    You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

    You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

    Still looking at the trait description:

    "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

    Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.
    (While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)
    Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.
    Btw good analysis.

    No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

    Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

    Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .
    What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.
    Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.
    Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.
    About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,
    Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.
    Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.
    That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

    I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xD
    It loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

    No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

    I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

    Now in details :

    Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.
    The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

    Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.
    Concrete example :

    • You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
    • You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
    • You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

    All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

    In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

    Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :
    1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.
    2) Improving combo setup reward.

    IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

    IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

    IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.
    kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

    I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

    As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

    I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

    I'm not mixing anything, currently even on Jazz vids , most of time he burst with GS1 + F1 combo (or sword 3+F1+2sword).
    We are far from the old playstyle like in Vash vids (sadly there were removed ...) or even Osicat https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=_i9TPVp4BiQ&feature=emb_logo it's not that much 100% about it but you can get an idea.
    Even post patch illusions can't get the same positionning as before because they will be too squichy and aoe CC didn't get changes.

    What I think they want to do with chrono rework is to fork chrono gameplay from core and removing IP is a good idea IMO. Mean vast majority of vanilla core build didn't use IP.
    But they have to continue the rework to make it viable by
    1) improving illusions HP so that mesmer can position with it and ennemies.
    2) improving the combo : basically move the slow on F2 to insert it in the cycle and buff Damage vs slow on F1. And create an equivalent combo for condi so that it's not just about spamming F2.

    I understand that you think it will just be a "I spam illusion and shatter gameplay" but it's not a on shatter clic effect, illusions have to it so positionning take a hudge part in it and better players would make the difference.

    Conversely if you bring back IP then it will just be the usual classic gameplay with bad chrono trait because if good trait it will just be a super-core like it was during years.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    yes

    @viquing.8254
    the shatter playstyle sounds cool and all but I cant immagine the world where chrono can survive without disort and without F3 self shatter.
    expecially since chono as elite spec doesnt even provide all that much damage if any, nor does it provide any healing worth mentioning.
    Superspeed shatter is mostly blessing but also a curse, you cant stutter f3, but since developers made a bright idea of removing F3 stun it wont be even worth the effort anyways.
    you also cant stutter F2 shatter blind if you trait for it.
    RN chrono is a downgrade. Its espec mechanic has antisynergy with mesmers kit.
    If chrono is to become playable it has to have its F4 reworked or redesigned.
    Having to burn all the abilities you have to proc it, and suprise now you have cooldowns.
    It doesnt work 99% of the time and 1% of the time it works its SUPER toxic, I used to play it before lost time was removed.
    And I could tell that my oponents didnt have fun by getting boomed by 2x time well + 2x shield 5 followed bt gs4.
    10x stun with turbo damage, no no no and no.
    They could make it something akin to mimic,
    Its no longer a shatter, it lasts 2s, and its cooldown is 10s + 50% of the cooldown of all used abilities.
    First 1s is disorted.
    If you wanna make cute blink combos and reset then sure, but cooldown would be really long.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020
    no

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @viquing.8254
    the shatter playstyle sounds cool and all but I cant immagine the world where chrono can survive without disort and without F3 self shatter.
    expecially since chono as elite spec doesnt even provide all that much damage if any, nor does it provide any healing worth mentioning.
    Superspeed shatter is mostly blessing but also a curse, you cant stutter f3, but since developers made a bright idea of removing F3 stun it wont be even worth the effort anyways.
    you also cant stutter F2 shatter blind if you trait for it.
    RN chrono is a downgrade. Its espec mechanic has antisynergy with mesmers kit.
    If chrono is to become playable it has to have its F4 reworked or redesigned.
    Having to burn all the abilities you have to proc it, and suprise now you have cooldowns.
    It doesnt work 99% of the time and 1% of the time it works its SUPER toxic, I used to play it before lost time was removed.
    And I could tell that my oponents didnt have fun by getting boomed by 2x time well + 2x shield 5 followed bt gs4.
    10x stun with turbo damage, no no no and no.
    They could make it something akin to mimic,
    Its no longer a shatter, it lasts 2s, and its cooldown is 10s + 50% of the cooldown of all used abilities.
    First 1s is disorted.
    If you wanna make cute blink combos and reset then sure, but cooldown would be really long.

    Yay of course they have to continue rework and rework traits to be around new gameplay but if they does it will be more interesting than just bring back IP and leaving the spec as it is.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @viquing.8254
    the shatter playstyle sounds cool and all but I cant immagine the world where chrono can survive without disort and without F3 self shatter.
    expecially since chono as elite spec doesnt even provide all that much damage if any, nor does it provide any healing worth mentioning.
    Superspeed shatter is mostly blessing but also a curse, you cant stutter f3, but since developers made a bright idea of removing F3 stun it wont be even worth the effort anyways.
    you also cant stutter F2 shatter blind if you trait for it.
    RN chrono is a downgrade. Its espec mechanic has antisynergy with mesmers kit.
    If chrono is to become playable it has to have its F4 reworked or redesigned.
    Having to burn all the abilities you have to proc it, and suprise now you have cooldowns.
    It doesnt work 99% of the time and 1% of the time it works its SUPER toxic, I used to play it before lost time was removed.
    And I could tell that my oponents didnt have fun by getting boomed by 2x time well + 2x shield 5 followed bt gs4.
    10x stun with turbo damage, no no no and no.
    They could make it something akin to mimic,
    Its no longer a shatter, it lasts 2s, and its cooldown is 10s + 50% of the cooldown of all used abilities.
    First 1s is disorted.
    If you wanna make cute blink combos and reset then sure, but cooldown would be really long.

    Unless they changed it the last iteration, the blind is only on Mes Shatter, or was.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020
    yes

    @viquing.8254 said:
    I will continue the discussion here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try
    Because I derivate too much on mesmer topic.

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.
    Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

    You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

    You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

    Still looking at the trait description:

    "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

    Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.
    (While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)
    Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.
    Btw good analysis.

    No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

    Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

    Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .
    What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.
    Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.
    Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.
    About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,
    Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.
    Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.
    That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

    I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xD
    It loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

    No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

    I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

    Now in details :

    Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.
    The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

    Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.
    Concrete example :

    • You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
    • You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
    • You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

    All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

    In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

    Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :
    1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.
    2) Improving combo setup reward.

    IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

    IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

    IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.
    kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

    I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

    As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

    I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

    I'm not mixing anything, currently even on Jazz vids because it's the current no stealth power mes reference, most of time he burst with GS1 + F1 combo (or sword 3+F1+2sword).
    We are far from the old playstyle like in Vash vids (sadly there were removed ...) or even Osicat https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=_i9TPVp4BiQ&feature=emb_logo it's not that much 100% about it but you can get an idea.
    Even post patch illusions can't get the same positionning as before because they will be too squichy and aoe CC didn't get changes.

    What I think they want to do with chrono rework is to fork chrono gameplay from core and removing IP is a good idea IMO. Mean vast majority of vanilla core build didn't use IP.
    But they have to continue the rework to make it viable by
    1) improving illusions HP so that mesmer can position with it and ennemies.
    2) improving the combo : basically move the slow on F2 to insert it in the cycle and buff Damage vs slow on F1. And create an equivalent combo for condi so that it's not just about spamming F2.

    I understand that you think it will just be a "I spam illusion and shatter gameplay" but it's not a on shatter clic effect, illusions have to it so positionning take a hudge part in it and better players would make the difference.

    Conversely if you bring back IP then it will just be the usual classic gameplay with bad chrono trait because if good trait it will just be a super-core like it was during years.

    I watched a bit of the Osicat rofl (sweet how ppl get hyped in comments about a simple blink stomp on a Thief porting away 2 seconds before the stomp ends and gives the Mesmer insane big time to react xD). Maybe he was considered good back in the days but he would not stand a change vs current decent power gs shatter Mesmerplayer in mirror build duels. You can clearly see why he prefers a more tanky (Chaosline oof) and slower paced playstyle over a gs build i would say. He is kiting well though but the build is pretty easy to play and his targets are sometimes near afk from their low skill lvl). It is all very slow in this video: his build, his playstyle, the game as a whole xD But it is a pretty good example for what i mean actually. He doesn't need IP the only time he is near the target very shortly is when he uses s3. He is also not playing a pure shatter power build, it is more of a phantams hybrid, maybe even condi/ power hybrid. And other videos are even more of condi builds, for that:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    P.S. Shatterplay can be power or condi. It’s just the skill prioritization and the way you play it that make it stand out as its own playstyle.

    Yes true but condishatter was also different from powershatter and less relying on IP because the dmg was more spread out to all shatters (with f2 being the main condi dmg skill but in the end you applied condis with all shatters not only the f1/f2) and the way condi shatter traits were designed they always rewarded more clone shatter 1:1 more (condistacks per clone) while power shatter has decreased power dmg per clone the more clones are out on f1 and power dmg is only linked to f1 (and way weaker f2), while f3 and f4 were pure utility. Also back then vulnerability didn't higher condi dmg if i remember right, so comboing with using specific shatters in a row to prepare a burst with vulnstacks was not needed for condishatter.

    Ofc not only oneshot builds burst with gs2-f1, other gs power Mesmer bursting with it too. xD But look what else he has to do to kill anything, how fast the comboing and shatter use is and needs to be (it is only with IP) and that in often melee range on a squishy spec that is reactive and interactive (not just oneshot out of stealth porting from max range in and done). There is a difference like between heaven and hell to Osicats builds in terms of skill ceiling and Osicat skill lvl compared to current Powershatter players.

    Btw you also forgot that you had no delay on shatter on phantasms back then. All changes to Mesmers that happened since then just cry for IP being baseline, also on Chrono. You can rework Chrono shatters for different playstyle in other ways. Like Anet started with that slow requirement. And instead deleting f4 you could have linked the invuln duration to quickness uptime on the Mesmer or alacrity uptime or whatever. Means adding rewards to shatters to higher their lower basic dmg or their utility reward with chronospecific gameplay (while still keeping it instant, like only 1 secs invul on f4 without any quickness up or something like that, one clone +selfshatter does only 50% of the dmg of a 1 clone+selfshatter on core when no slow on target, 80% of the core dmg with slow to compensate the cd reset from CS and alacrity).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020
    no

    I suggested this before but for Chrono, Phantasms should count as Clones for the purpose of Shatter skills, like on old Mesmer. This wouldn't entirely fix the problem but it'd improve the usability significantly in most fights.

    FYI I don't play a Mirage, so I can't comment there, both of my Mesmers are Chronomancers still.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    yes

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I suggested this before but for Chrono, Phantasms should count as Clones for the purpose of Shatter skills, like on old Mesmer. This wouldn't entirely fix the problem but it'd improve the usability significantly in most fights.

    FYI I don't play a Mirage, so I can't comment there, both of my Mesmers are Chronomancers still.

    how would that work, would you destroy 5k dmg phantasm for 1,5k dmg shatter or wat?

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020
    no

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I suggested this before but for Chrono, Phantasms should count as Clones for the purpose of Shatter skills, like on old Mesmer. This wouldn't entirely fix the problem but it'd improve the usability significantly in most fights.

    FYI I don't play a Mirage, so I can't comment there, both of my Mesmers are Chronomancers still.

    how would that work, would you destroy 5k dmg phantasm for 1,5k dmg shatter or wat?

    In competitive game modes, damage is the least that Shatter skills are used for, they're needed for extensive utility and survival. Chrono still has plenty of damage, but is no longer competitive because its hard to sustain after the rework.

    My DPS Chrono which uses Phantasms & Shatters exclusively for damage, still does fine. My support Chrono however.. :p

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    yes

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I suggested this before but for Chrono, Phantasms should count as Clones for the purpose of Shatter skills, like on old Mesmer. This wouldn't entirely fix the problem but it'd improve the usability significantly in most fights.

    FYI I don't play a Mirage, so I can't comment there, both of my Mesmers are Chronomancers still.

    how would that work, would you destroy 5k dmg phantasm for 1,5k dmg shatter or wat?

    In competitive game modes, damage is the least that Shatter skills are used for, they're needed for extensive utility and survival. Chrono still has plenty of damage, but is no longer competitive because its hard to sustain after the rework.

    My DPS Chrono which uses Phantasms & Shatters exclusively for damage, still does fine. My support Chrono however.. :p

    F1 would be dps loss.
    F2 would be dps loss.
    Disort doesnt exist anymore.
    F3 is the only shatter that COULD POTENTIALLY be argued about. But even then I would take phantasm any time over F3 clone

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020
    no

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    I will continue the discussion here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try
    Because I derivate too much on mesmer topic.

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.
    Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

    You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

    You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

    Still looking at the trait description:

    "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

    Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.
    (While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)
    Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.
    Btw good analysis.

    No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

    Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

    Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .
    What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.
    Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.
    Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.
    About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,
    Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.
    Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.
    That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

    I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xD
    It loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

    No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

    I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

    Now in details :

    Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.
    The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

    Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.
    Concrete example :

    • You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
    • You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
    • You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

    All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

    In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

    Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :
    1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.
    2) Improving combo setup reward.

    IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

    IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

    IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.
    kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

    I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

    As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

    I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

    I'm not mixing anything, currently even on Jazz vids because it's the current no stealth power mes reference, most of time he burst with GS1 + F1 combo (or sword 3+F1+2sword).
    We are far from the old playstyle like in Vash vids (sadly there were removed ...) or even Osicat https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=_i9TPVp4BiQ&feature=emb_logo it's not that much 100% about it but you can get an idea.
    Even post patch illusions can't get the same positionning as before because they will be too squichy and aoe CC didn't get changes.

    What I think they want to do with chrono rework is to fork chrono gameplay from core and removing IP is a good idea IMO. Mean vast majority of vanilla core build didn't use IP.
    But they have to continue the rework to make it viable by
    1) improving illusions HP so that mesmer can position with it and ennemies.
    2) improving the combo : basically move the slow on F2 to insert it in the cycle and buff Damage vs slow on F1. And create an equivalent combo for condi so that it's not just about spamming F2.

    I understand that you think it will just be a "I spam illusion and shatter gameplay" but it's not a on shatter clic effect, illusions have to it so positionning take a hudge part in it and better players would make the difference.

    Conversely if you bring back IP then it will just be the usual classic gameplay with bad chrono trait because if good trait it will just be a super-core like it was during years.

    I watched a bit of the Osicat rofl (sweet how ppl get hyped in comments about a simple blink stomp on a Thief porting away 2 seconds before the stomp ends and gives the Mesmer insane big time to react xD). Maybe he was considered good back in the days but he would not stand a change vs current decent power gs shatter Mesmerplayer in mirror build duels. You can clearly see why he prefers a more tanky (Chaosline oof) and slower paced playstyle over a gs build i would say. He is kiting well though but the build is pretty easy to play and his targets are sometimes near afk from their low skill lvl). It is all very slow in this video: his build, his playstyle, the game as a whole xD But it is a pretty good example for what i mean actually. He doesn't need IP the only time he is near the target very shortly is when he uses s3. He is also not playing a pure shatter power build, it is more of a phantams hybrid, maybe even condi/ power hybrid. And other videos are even more of condi builds, for that:

    That's why I said vash vid were more explicative. About Osi, he only play condi at the end of vanilla and was best know for the montage he does.
    Btw every fight in vanilla look slow considering the spam fiesta we have currently. (Mean it didn't look faster on hellseth vanilla vids : )
    Now if you can't get why it's easier to land today burst in fast paced combo than in vanilla with clones to setup on a class who haven't any kind of movement speed apart by runes. Then I will say that we aren't playing counter strike or some other FPS. Having a tactical play with combo to setup in more than 1sec/3clics is healthy too.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    yes

    kitten, a world where core mes doenst die in 0,6s. a world where mes can deal damage without going full glass cannon.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not that ANet would do a reversion, but I think a good way to take this argument now is in the context of the new balance paradigm. The Chrono nerfs are now a relic of necessity in a past paradigm. In the new paradigm they're not necessary (we have to ignore the oversight that they weren't necessary before either).

    In the spirit of the new paradigm what if Chrono's tradeoff was that a no clone shatter was only able to apply self traited effects, i.e. boons on shatter, heal on shatter, cleanse on shatter, but could do no damage or apply conditions. No free damage, blinds, or condi application. I feel like keeping cc would be nice, but it would be on the longer cooldown in line with other cc's or tied directly to a steep trade-off trait.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭
    no

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Let's see how people feel about the new chrono
    Personally, I hate that monstrosity

    I don't feel it should be reverted, as it was a buff with no drawbacks before. I do feel some things about it need to be re-examined, but the rework reverted, no.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Let's see how people feel about the new chrono
    Personally, I hate that monstrosity

    I don't feel it should be reverted, as it was a buff with no drawbacks before. I do feel some things about it need to be re-examined, but the rework reverted, no.

    The greatest chronomancer/mesmer player and expert said his word /s
    In fact, chrono was never "ReWoRkEd" it was smitersbooned.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020
    yes

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    I will continue the discussion here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try
    Because I derivate too much on mesmer topic.

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.
    Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

    You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

    You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

    Still looking at the trait description:

    "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

    Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.
    (While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)
    Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.
    Btw good analysis.

    No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

    Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

    Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .
    What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.
    Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.
    Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.
    About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,
    Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.
    Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.
    That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

    I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xD
    It loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

    No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

    I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

    Now in details :

    Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.
    The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

    Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.
    Concrete example :

    • You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
    • You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
    • You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

    All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

    In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

    Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :
    1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.
    2) Improving combo setup reward.

    IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

    IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

    IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.
    kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

    I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

    As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

    I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

    I'm not mixing anything, currently even on Jazz vids because it's the current no stealth power mes reference, most of time he burst with GS1 + F1 combo (or sword 3+F1+2sword).
    We are far from the old playstyle like in Vash vids (sadly there were removed ...) or even Osicat https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=_i9TPVp4BiQ&feature=emb_logo it's not that much 100% about it but you can get an idea.
    Even post patch illusions can't get the same positionning as before because they will be too squichy and aoe CC didn't get changes.

    What I think they want to do with chrono rework is to fork chrono gameplay from core and removing IP is a good idea IMO. Mean vast majority of vanilla core build didn't use IP.
    But they have to continue the rework to make it viable by
    1) improving illusions HP so that mesmer can position with it and ennemies.
    2) improving the combo : basically move the slow on F2 to insert it in the cycle and buff Damage vs slow on F1. And create an equivalent combo for condi so that it's not just about spamming F2.

    I understand that you think it will just be a "I spam illusion and shatter gameplay" but it's not a on shatter clic effect, illusions have to it so positionning take a hudge part in it and better players would make the difference.

    Conversely if you bring back IP then it will just be the usual classic gameplay with bad chrono trait because if good trait it will just be a super-core like it was during years.

    I watched a bit of the Osicat rofl (sweet how ppl get hyped in comments about a simple blink stomp on a Thief porting away 2 seconds before the stomp ends and gives the Mesmer insane big time to react xD). Maybe he was considered good back in the days but he would not stand a change vs current decent power gs shatter Mesmerplayer in mirror build duels. You can clearly see why he prefers a more tanky (Chaosline oof) and slower paced playstyle over a gs build i would say. He is kiting well though but the build is pretty easy to play and his targets are sometimes near afk from their low skill lvl). It is all very slow in this video: his build, his playstyle, the game as a whole xD But it is a pretty good example for what i mean actually. He doesn't need IP the only time he is near the target very shortly is when he uses s3. He is also not playing a pure shatter power build, it is more of a phantams hybrid, maybe even condi/ power hybrid. And other videos are even more of condi builds, for that:

    That's why I said vash vid were more explicative. About Osi, he only play condi at the end of vanilla and was best know for the montage he does.
    Btw every fight in vanilla look slow considering the spam fiesta we have currently. (Mean it didn't look faster on hellseth vanilla vids : )
    Now if you can't get why it's easier to land today burst in fast paced combo than in vanilla with clones to setup on a class who haven't any kind of movement speed apart by runes. Then I will say that we aren't playing counter strike or some other FPS. Having a tactical play with combo to setup in more than 1sec/3clics is healthy too.

    The old berserker animation xD Cast times on power shatter Mesmer are exactly the same (if the berserker cast is not even higher casttime now?). The only resource of quickness is a sigil with 18 secs cd for 2 secs (now only 1), i don't remember if it did exist back then. Helseth plays clearly faster (not to mention 2000000 times better) on a clearly faster paced and way harder to play build than any Osicat build i saw in his videos. And that is the reason why someone like Osicat prefers these kind of slow builds. When you then even add Chaosline (+10p in inspiration lol) what covers playermistakes a lot, then you get a double easier build. I mean Osicat and his opponents are back pedalling xD I don't care for the camera shake but the random dodges are strong with Osicat. In the end i think, we can just agree to disagree about what builds need more skill. It is senseless to dispute over that. Maybe talk with other Mesmer mains instead me. Maybe it is just me being clueless (not that i also do play Mesmer among other classes and i can feel by playing myself what builds are very easy, but can be i would need to be a main to understand your point).

    Fact is, that even before the phantasms changes every pure shatter based power build ran IP trait because it was needed even back then without all the changes we have now. As you already agreed that back then, also with IP, you needed good clone positioning outside of pure oneshot tries. The playstyle did not change at all, you still need good clone positioning, it is not IP what makes that unnecessary (Chrono superspeed does way more in that regard and kills some skill ceiling in terms of clone positioning). Just that this clone positioning is harder to do today. It is still possible and i see good Mesmers still doing it, for example to prepare a daze chain with f3 by placing 3 clones at different places/range so they do not arrive all at same time. Same i saw for f2 plays when blind trait is used. With other words it might be impossible for you but it is not impossible for everyone, even today and it clearly is still needed. Because nothing changed in that regard compared to core days. The need for good clone work is still there also with IP, as it always was (and you agree to that), it just got harder to do.

    Then add to that, that with the phantams changes the clone generation is way slower, you have a big delay on phantams to shatter them. They made IP baseline for a reason back then. No IP slows down Mesmer shatter play very hard and makes pure shatter power builds insanely clunky and not in a way that makes it more skilled (but in that we can just agree to disagree pls). Chrono needs IP just like every Mesmer spec that is supposed to be playable as power shatter needs it and always did need it. How you want to reactively interrupt with f3 when you need to create a clone before? How you want to be right on time with Distortion before you get hit by big burst when you need to prepare it with another skill to create a clone? (oh wait, Chrono doesn't have Distortion anymore... now it makes sense... ROFL). IP is absolutely essential to Mesmer for power shatter playstyle (in general, means no matter what elite), in particular since the phantasm rework.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020
    no

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    I will continue the discussion here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97997/trade-offs-anets-definiton-and-execution-an-almost-unbiased-analysis-try
    Because I derivate too much on mesmer topic.

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.
    Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

    You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

    You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

    Still looking at the trait description:

    "Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

    Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.
    (While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)
    Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.
    Btw good analysis.

    No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

    Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

    Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .
    What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.
    Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.
    Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.
    About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,
    Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.
    Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.
    That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

    I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xD
    It loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

    No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

    I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

    Now in details :

    Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.
    The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

    Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.
    Concrete example :

    • You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
    • You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
    • You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

    All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

    In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

    Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :
    1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.
    2) Improving combo setup reward.

    IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

    IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

    IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.
    kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

    I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

    As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

    I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

    I'm not mixing anything, currently even on Jazz vids because it's the current no stealth power mes reference, most of time he burst with GS1 + F1 combo (or sword 3+F1+2sword).
    We are far from the old playstyle like in Vash vids (sadly there were removed ...) or even Osicat https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=_i9TPVp4BiQ&feature=emb_logo it's not that much 100% about it but you can get an idea.
    Even post patch illusions can't get the same positionning as before because they will be too squichy and aoe CC didn't get changes.

    What I think they want to do with chrono rework is to fork chrono gameplay from core and removing IP is a good idea IMO. Mean vast majority of vanilla core build didn't use IP.
    But they have to continue the rework to make it viable by
    1) improving illusions HP so that mesmer can position with it and ennemies.
    2) improving the combo : basically move the slow on F2 to insert it in the cycle and buff Damage vs slow on F1. And create an equivalent combo for condi so that it's not just about spamming F2.

    I understand that you think it will just be a "I spam illusion and shatter gameplay" but it's not a on shatter clic effect, illusions have to it so positionning take a hudge part in it and better players would make the difference.

    Conversely if you bring back IP then it will just be the usual classic gameplay with bad chrono trait because if good trait it will just be a super-core like it was during years.

    I watched a bit of the Osicat rofl (sweet how ppl get hyped in comments about a simple blink stomp on a Thief porting away 2 seconds before the stomp ends and gives the Mesmer insane big time to react xD). Maybe he was considered good back in the days but he would not stand a change vs current decent power gs shatter Mesmerplayer in mirror build duels. You can clearly see why he prefers a more tanky (Chaosline oof) and slower paced playstyle over a gs build i would say. He is kiting well though but the build is pretty easy to play and his targets are sometimes near afk from their low skill lvl). It is all very slow in this video: his build, his playstyle, the game as a whole xD But it is a pretty good example for what i mean actually. He doesn't need IP the only time he is near the target very shortly is when he uses s3. He is also not playing a pure shatter power build, it is more of a phantams hybrid, maybe even condi/ power hybrid. And other videos are even more of condi builds, for that:

    That's why I said vash vid were more explicative. About Osi, he only play condi at the end of vanilla and was best know for the montage he does.
    Btw every fight in vanilla look slow considering the spam fiesta we have currently. (Mean it didn't look faster on hellseth vanilla vids : )
    Now if you can't get why it's easier to land today burst in fast paced combo than in vanilla with clones to setup on a class who haven't any kind of movement speed apart by runes. Then I will say that we aren't playing counter strike or some other FPS. Having a tactical play with combo to setup in more than 1sec/3clics is healthy too.

    The old berserker animation xD Cast times on power shatter Mesmer are exactly the same (if the berserker cast is not even higher casttime now?). The only resource of quickness is a sigil with 18 secs cd for 2 secs (now only 1), i don't remember if it did exist back then. Helseth plays clearly faster (not to mention 2000000 times better) on a clearly faster paced and way harder to play build than any Osicat build i saw in his videos. And that is the reason why someone like Osicat prefers these kind of slow builds. When you then even add Chaosline (+10p in inspiration lol) what covers playermistakes a lot, then you get a double easier build. I mean Osicat and his opponents are back pedalling xD I don't care for the camera shake but the random dodges are strong with Osicat. In the end i think, we can just agree to disagree about what builds need more skill. It is senseless to dispute over that. Maybe talk with other Mesmer mains instead me. Maybe it is just me being clueless (not that i also do play Mesmer among other classes and i can feel by playing myself what builds are very easy, but can be i would need to be a main to understand your point).

    Fact is, that even before the phantasms changes every pure shatter based power build ran IP trait because it was needed even back then without all the changes we have now. As you already agreed that back then, also with IP, you needed good clone positioning outside of pure oneshot tries. The playstyle did not change at all, you still need good clone positioning, it is not IP what makes that unnecessary (Chrono superspeed does way more in that regard and kills some skill ceiling in terms of clone positioning). Just that this clone positioning is harder to do today. It is still possible and i see good Mesmers still doing it, for example to prepare a daze chain with f3 by placing 3 clones at different places/range so they do not arrive all at same time. Same i saw for f2 plays when blind trait is used. With other words it might be impossible for you but it is not impossible for everyone, even today and it clearly is still needed. Because nothing changed in that regard compared to core days. The need for good clone work is still there also with IP, as it always was (and you agree to that), it just got harder to do.

    Then add to that, that with the phantams changes the clone generation is way slower, you have a big delay on phantams to shatter them. They made IP baseline for a reason back then. No IP slows down Mesmer shatter play very hard and makes pure shatter power builds insanely clunky and not in a way that makes it more skilled (but in that we can just agree to disagree pls). Chrono needs IP just like every Mesmer spec that is supposed to be playable as power shatter needs it and always did need it. How you want to reactively interrupt with f3 when you need to create a clone before? How you want to be right on time with Distortion before you get hit by big burst when you need to prepare it with another skill to create a clone? (oh wait, Chrono doesn't have Distortion anymore... now it makes sense... ROFL). IP is absolutely essential to Mesmer for power shatter playstyle (in general, means no matter what elite), in particular since the phantasm rework.

    Dunno why you want to make it an Osi vs hellseth thread. They play different gamemode. 10 pt in inspi was mandatory in WvW. Mean ofc hellseth has better reflexes but hopefully there is other way to be skilled and for your information random dodge is a thing in WvW while it's the flag of bad player in PvP. The day Hellseth go into WvW he get killed in 5 sec so the question isn't about comparing tomaoes to potatoes but about illusions.
    The gameplay changed because clone hp didn't change over years. Was even nerf with Soillusion rework. Whereas aoe, damage and spam highly grew during years.
    Love how you explain me how it's is curently possible to pop 3 clones before shattering.
    Contrary to you I don't see current mesmer poping 3 clones at different position like it was diring core.
    Neither they wait 3 clones before F1.
    Give prove before arguing that a nunchaku CAN win against a rocket launcher. Mean clone life is like in a WvW blob you want to shatter it as fast as possible to not get them die before doing anything.
    They give IP baseline so you don't need any kind of management to shatter.
    You want to reacively F3 ?
    Put a clone wih enough hp to not gt one shotted then fight near him to be ready to rupt like every mesmer build wih no IP did that during core. You know something about ressource management.

    It crazy how you always want everything to go to the mono fps gameplay you think its the only skilled way to play.