First Take, Death Magic Rework — Guild Wars 2 Forums

First Take, Death Magic Rework

Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

After years of being neglected Arena net has finally decided to take a look at the often joked about death magic specialization. This Specialization has been a meme to the community as hands down one of the worst specializations in the game. But the real question is will these changes make what it offers worth it in the long run? Well, that's a bit more difficult to say, but I feel it might see some niche use here and there. There are some really neat design choices and other questionable ones. I'm off the opinion that they really didn't go far enough with the changes and this makes the spec still feel a bit lopsided in terms of its design. But lets get into why I feel this way.

Death Magic: This trait line has been reworked. Many traits now revolve around a new effect called Death's Carapace that increases toughness by 20 for each stack up to a maximum of 30 stacks. Death's Carapace stacks are applied for 10 seconds from all traits except Flesh of the Master.

Starting here, This is an interesting change. From the looks of the traits how these stacks will apply to the necromancer will very a bit and gaining 30 stacks for any extended period of time seems like it might not be as easy as you might think. I see 10-15 being the average from what I'm reading in the traits which is quite good, but getting that full 600 bonus toughness might take full dedication to a build designed around it. The idea is interesting to say the least, but using this as specifically a defensive ability feels like the wrong move to me. Necromancer is missing a lot of support for allies and this was a good opportunity to give them a means to providing aid to allies. I had almost thought that this could be used as a resource for the necromancer that they could spend, but we'll see why that isn't the case.

Minor:

  • Armored Shroud: This trait now gives 5 stacks of Death's Carapace when entering shroud.
  • Soul Comprehension: In addition to its previous effects, this trait now also grants 1 stack of Death's Carapace for each kill the necromancer participates in.
  • Beyond the Veil: This trait has been reworked. It now reduces condition damage by 10% while the necromancer has at least 10 stacks of Death's Carapace.

For the most part, I feel these are actually pretty solid Minors. There still is the problem with Soul Comprehension that it just is almost a completely dead trait in places like PvP or in Raids, which is a bit of a shame. In WvW though this could be quite threatening in the Scourge zergs but that is yet to be seen. With the extra life force on top of the toughness and another trait we'll get to later I feel that will be great there, but very dead everywhere else. I do like these for the most part. Taking the design of Corrupter's Fervor and putting part of it into the minors I feel is a good decision over all.

Adept:

  • Flesh of the Master: Instead of granting armor for each minion, this trait now causes the necromancer's minions to grant them 2 Death's Carapace stacks as long as the minions are alive.
  • Putrid Defense: This trait has changed positions and its functionality has changed. It now causes poison to deal 15% more damage and grants 1 Death's Carapace stack when applying poison.
  • Shrouded Removal: This trait has changed positions. In addition to its previous effects, it now grants 3 Death's Carapace stacks when a condition is removed.

Starting with Flesh of the master, this one is worded a bit odd. I feel a deeper explanation is in order, but my assumption is that they would apply their carapace to the necromancer once every 10 seconds. But this isn't at all made clear. Is it 2 stacks total or 2 stacks per minion? This isn't so clear to me, but my gut says the later. The language also suggests that it might grant the minions the carapace? This wasn't so clear to me but my assumption is that it'll be 2 stacks of Carapace per minion every 10 seconds. The confusion is part of the reason I feel the necromancer being able to grant carapace to allies was something they might get, but clearly that isn't the case, and it doesn't look to be the case for minions either. This is just my assumption and it could function differently at launch. Still, this will combo extremely nicely into another trait if it functions how I think.

Putrid Defense has long been one of the traits I felt was such a waste when compared to other traits in the same tier. It was clearly the weakest link so seeing that it grants the necromancer bonus damage poison is such a nice touch. Granting Carapace is a good compliment to this as well, although the synergy with this trait in death magic still isn't all there. You have to take Death nova to get synergy for this trait if only using death magic which I personally am not a fan of the lack of poison dedication in this specialization. I do love the trait, hopefully its use can grow with new skills or a new elite spec, but right now I still feel this will be the weakest option. This is useful for core necromancer, but condi core isn't a real thing at the moment and the pieces to its complete puzzle just aren't there and this wont put it there unfortunately.

Shrouded Removal has always been a very good trait. If this was in any other specialization it would have been a staple of the necromancer's defenses for reaper and core necromancer. So the bonus that it grants you carapace is just icing. My question about this is does it grant carapace whenever a condition is removed, or just for the shrouded removal specifically? I feel it might be the former. In my opinion if this is the case this makes Shrouded Removal the best adept trait of them all. Even with the 15% bonus Damage of Putrid defense the defensive potential here is just too high to ignore. If its the later though it'll still be very solid and I still feel it may be the default for most builds.

Master:

  • Necromantic Corruption: This trait is unchanged.
  • Dark Defiance: This trait is unchanged.
  • Deadly Strength: This trait has been reworked. It now causes Death's Carapace to grant an additional 10 power per stack.

There isn't much to talk about here with Necromantic corruption or Dark defiance since they haven't changed. Dark defiance does have some new synergy with a grandmaster which we'll get into later. So it as an option might be worth considering. Although this level of bulk might be over kill in many situations. So lets talk about Deadly strength which has been reworked significantly. Deadly strength is leaps and bounds better than it was previously and I can see it being a real option now. The fact that this isn't tied to a stat and gives a flat bonus makes this an extremely strong choice for more tanky power builds. I can see this being a favorite of reapers who may take death just for the extra bulk who wont feel as punished for taking it. Averaging around 160-220 extra power isn't a joke and considering its not a boon this can be helpful in a boon corruption meta. Although it looks like the meta is moving away from that this trait does get me to think quite hard about the options. In PvE, this is the best trait to take and it could be the trait of choice for some WvW scourges.

Grandmaster:

  • Death Nova: Updated skill facts and description. Updated attack name from Lesser Poison Cloud to Poison Nova in order to indicate that it has different behavior from Corrosive Poison Cloud. Fixed an issue that caused this trait to use the minion's stats instead of the necromancer's. Fixed various issues that caused this trait to behave inconsistently with certain minions. Increased damage by 60% in PvE only.
  • Corrupter's Fervor: This trait has been reworked. It now grants 1 Death's Carapace stack when applying any condition. Additionally, at 25 Death's Carapace stacks or above, the necromancer gains pulsing protection for 3 seconds every 3 seconds.
  • Unholy Sanctuary: This trait is unchanged.

Death nova is interesting. I really like the changes they've made to it but these seem to be intended effects of the trait rather than a function change. This trait could offer a minor minion bomber build, but I doubt it'll be anything more than a meme. Its interesting for sure, but I can't quite get behind a minion bomber build. Arena net is going to have to give me a lot more before this becomes a real thing. Still, I'll love to meme with this trait at least for a little while.

Corrupter's Fervor might put the necromancer over the top when it comes to carapace. This is offers quite a bit, but I personally feel that it should also grant the user 1 stack of stability every 3 seconds much like the juggernaut trait. Necromancer has long had a lack of stab so Personally feel that just having that little bit of help would seriously give them a fighting chance in these situations where they're just being juggled around. And if the necromancer is on the ground they can't get the carapace which hinders their defenses a bit too much. This trait is nice and probably the best option, but I still feel it could be a bit better.

Unholy Sanctuary unfortunately is what we call a noob trap. This trait is the absolute worst trait the necromancer could take of any specialization between adapt, master or grandmaster and the fact that it remains is a real shame. The trait is actually anti synergistic with scourge as well since it requires life force to trigger. Which if a player is desperate for this to need to trigger, they're already long dead. This trait is a trap and no one should ever take it. I was really hoping Anet would Replace this with something but that doesn't seem to be the case.

These are my thoughts on the traits, but I still have more thoughts to share when talking about death. I feel that this is a good start for the changes of death, but I overall am a bit underwhelmed with it. Not because the changes they made were bad but because it just doesn't offer the variety that death so desperately needs. The bonus toughness means that this wont be taken in most raids because of how aggro roles work and the party doesn't want to force the tank to push past 600 toughness to keep the necromancer from pulling aggro. But this shouldn't be a problem since death just doesn't offer enough to the necromancer even with these changes to warrant picking it over Spite for power or Curses for condi. And because it doesn't have any means of support it wont be taken over blood. Death feels like it'll be at its absolute strongest in WvW. But I'm not sure how much that'll matter. The dominance of scourge in zergs wont change and this doesn't change up the scourge's play style any since they'll be doing the exact same thing.

I'm also kinda disappointed that the forgotten skill type, spectral skills didn't get any traits here either. It had been removed from Soul reaping and my hope was that death could be its new home, yet this isn't the case. Spectral skills are a bit of a mixed bag so seeing them in Death would have been welcome. And its not like it would be unusual for them to double up on traits that influence skills in one specialization. Spite both buffs axe and focus. Death doesn't have a weapon that represents it while Spite and Blood both have two. So this would have been a nice place to see it.

As for a previous statement I made about support. I was kinda hoping that Death's Carapace could have been used as a resource by one or two traits to sacrifice stacks in order to provide some form of defense to allies. Be it protection, stability, resistance or perhaps a means for them to transfer conditions. I'm in favor of the sacrificial nature that the GW1 Necromancer used and I'm still wishing that would return to guild wars 2. So this is a bit disappointing, but not really that surprising. Death I feel could use some means of support for allies to make it enticing for the players.

I'm also of the option that there are far too many minion traits. Arena net should honestly reduce that to just 1 as a grandmaster and roll the bonus health and damage into base minions. I still feel death Nova doesn't quite do enough while the space could be used for more support or even spectral skills or this sort of sacrificing defenses for allies design. But this is just my opinion on the matter.

Over all, I'll wait until the release of these changes but I honestly can't say I'll be using it all that much. I do look forward to them and hope death finds a home on some builds. As for me, I'll be waiting for the Next elite spec in hopes death finds some more wide spread use.

Comments

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019

    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

  • Lily agreed with support aspect wrt gaining resistance pulse to you and allies every few seconds with stacks high.

    Why?

    Bc I'm back after TWO years to check out any PVP changes. MY Weaper, hrm, Reaper still gets 50k!+!+!+! fire damage death w/ every skill slot w/ condi removal!

  • all of necro needs a rework not just one trait line or else necro will remain what Anet wants it to be, a boon corrupt bot for PVP/WVW and a joke in PVE

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019

    The only use for this entire Trait line I see is to combine Putrid Defense with Corrupter's Fervor to gain 24 Carapace Stacks with Soul Spiral on a Power Reaper, which with Armored Shroud puts you at 29 Stacks in ~2-3 seconds (30 if flashing Fear), granting you pulsing Protection for 10 Seconds, the 600 Toughness and with Deadly Strength, 300 Power by the end of it.

    Now that sounds great on paper and I will test it out once it's live, but the issue with this is not only having to give up Soul Reaping or Spite.
    The greater issue I see with this is that it loads even more importance and power into Shroud, which already is both Necros only Defensive mechanic, as well as a vast majority of it's Offense.

    Reaper already is a huge gimmick of a spec that revolves around catching bad players in Soul Spiral, with good players already blinking away/blocking/going invul or stunlocking the Reaper as soon as they see Shroud go up.
    All this does is make the already existing counterplay to Reaper even more crucial and effective than before, while doing nothing to address any of the plentiful existing issues Necro has as a whole.

    Of course it might also see some play on Scourge, but I'm not entirely sure yet how playable that spec will be with the changes coming to it in this patch as well.
    Even if it can maintain perma 600 Toughness and perma Protection with it, it's probably still going to get eaten alive due to not having any melee counterpressure available when actively using Shades.
    For raids the Trait line is dead the moment Toughness came into play.

    In short, Reaper will stomp noobs even harder in low rank PvP (possibly leading to further unjustified Nerfs), get countered all the same in high rank PvP (while giving up another Trait line), and Necro still doesn't have a place in PvE. Scourge will potentially roll over zergs even harder in WvW, with it all being a game of baiting out Shades and then charging in within 15 seconds from a different angle, and be questionable in PvP and dead in PvE.

    For Grandmasters, Unholy Sanctuary and Death Nova are dead traits in competition with Corrupter's Fervor (unless the change to use the Necro's stats turns out to be crazy strong for Death Nova, in which case it could be combined with Summon Bone Minions and potentially "Rise!") .
    For Masters you will want to pick Deadly Strength, especially on Power Reaper, or Dark Defiance against extremely high condi pressure, with the minion Trait still being an open world meme.
    For Adept Putrid Defense is a must pick for Reaper with Soul Spiral, just for the Carapace generation, otherwise Necro doesn't have much poison access at all and it's pretty dead on Core and Scourge. Shrouded Removal is still somewhat meh, but would be an okay alternative pick for core and especially Scourge, should the Carapace trigger on any condi removal, not just from the Trait, to synergise with Abrasive Grit. And Flesh of the Master again a minion meme.

    For Minors, Soul Comprehension is obviously still terrible, Beyond the Veil still lacklustre (a 10% condition damage reduction with a conditional? come on) and Armored Shroud an okay way of getting some extra stacks of Carapace for Reaper and Core and meh for Scourge.

    All in all, Death Magic might actually become meta for PvP (especially low to mid Tier), needed just to survive, especially on Scourge, while lowering the damage output and utility of both Scourge and Reaper significantly due to giving up another Trait line (which in playtesting might prove too much of a sacrifice).
    It will be mostly unuseable in PvE endgame, together with the rest of Necro.
    Potentially see some use in WvW, of which I know too little in terms of meta at this point to make an educated prediction.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

    Those are the passive conditions that the reaper brings. Its just a part of their kit at all times unless greatsword isn't included. Which is possible. Unholy Sanctuary honestly shouldn't exist. We should have a more supportive option. And Honestly, after testing it a bit, to get a feel. The entire trait line feels clunky. The extra defense is nice but the sacrifice you need to make to get it is just too much. And I was right about my prediction of an Average of 15 stacks. You can push to 30 super easily, but maintaining is closer to 15. Which I personally think Corruptor's Fervor should also pulse a single stack of Stability along with the protection. At the moment it feels underwhelming as a grandmaster.

    Death as a whole is still quite underwhelming. Which is a shame. You sacrifice too much by taking it. The passive damage bonus's from spite are just much better and the recovery from blood is just better imo. Which is a bit strange to say since normally I feel recovery is worse than defense, but from the necromancer's design they'd almost rather have the recovery since they don't have invuln or blocks. But that's an argument i could be convinced of otherwise.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seems to me that the Death magic rework is only really useful for soloing open world Reapers, or doing storyline instances.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in (and apparently new stacks not even replacing old stacks that are about to run out).

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Doesn't really matter if the stacks don't refresh themselves.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    A bit sad its pretty much only useful for a soloing reaper. It goes right in the toilet as soon you join a group.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    A bit sad its pretty much only useful for a soloing reaper. It goes right in the toilet as soon you join a group.

    Idk if I would want to give up either Spite or SR for some toughness even in that case.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    A bit sad its pretty much only useful for a soloing reaper. It goes right in the toilet as soon you join a group.

    Idk if I would want to give up either Spite or SR for some toughness even in that case.

    Minionmaster reaper is pretty strong for soloing, better at killing champions without it. Its a popular openworld build on metabattles.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    A bit sad its pretty much only useful for a soloing reaper. It goes right in the toilet as soon you join a group.

    Idk if I would want to give up either Spite or SR for some toughness even in that case.

    Minionmaster reaper is pretty strong for soloing, better at killing champions without it. Its a popular openworld build on metabattles.

    I personally don't like minions for open world because of the resummoning and the fact that they tend to get you stuck in combat more than anything, especially since I don't struggle in that content without it, but as a MM meme it's certainly still viable in Open World of course, while undeniably indeed useful for soloing champs as you say.

    In my opinion that's just a way to small niche for an entire Traitline to be called useful or fine.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    A bit sad its pretty much only useful for a soloing reaper. It goes right in the toilet as soon you join a group.

    Idk if I would want to give up either Spite or SR for some toughness even in that case.

    Minionmaster reaper is pretty strong for soloing, better at killing champions without it. Its a popular openworld build on metabattles.

    I personally don't like minions for open world because of the resummoning and the fact that they tend to get you stuck in combat more than anything, especially since I don't struggle in that content without it, but as a MM meme it's certainly still viable in Open World of course, while undeniably indeed useful for soloing champs as you say.

    In my opinion that's just a way to small niche for an entire Traitline to be called useful or fine.

    As long theres no champions the classic soul reaping, spite and reaper works just fine, yes. Completely no issue there either. Build templates will make it so much easier to swap to a champion build when needed and using a more flexible one not burdened by resummoning for general use.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    After some short testing, I would say Death Magic is pretty unplayable due to a combination of the stacks only lasting 10 seconds, and the duration not refreshing with new stacks coming in.

    Does't seem worth to run in any game mode, or element of that game mode, over pretty much every other specialisation still.

    Did you take Corrupters Fervor? It pretty much makes the new Deaths Carapace.

    Absolutely. You can burst up 30 stacks no problem, but there is no way you can maintain the required Stacks for Protection to get a reasonable amount of defense compareable to what other classes get in combination with actives and passives, and it imo doesn't make up for important utility you lose due to giving up another line.

    Maybe if you get massive cleave at all times like a WvW scenario on Scourge, but that's about it.

    The only reason you can't maintain the stacks is because they do not overwrite themselves. If that wasnt the case maintaining 30 would be very easy.

    I really hope it's a big with how it functions.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the real issue is which traitline u gonna drop to take deathmagic, and why.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

    Those are the passive conditions that the reaper brings. Its just a part of their kit at all times unless greatsword isn't included. Which is possible. Unholy Sanctuary honestly shouldn't exist. We should have a more supportive option. And Honestly, after testing it a bit, to get a feel. The entire trait line feels clunky. The extra defense is nice but the sacrifice you need to make to get it is just too much. And I was right about my prediction of an Average of 15 stacks. You can push to 30 super easily, but maintaining is closer to 15. Which I personally think Corruptor's Fervor should also pulse a single stack of Stability along with the protection. At the moment it feels underwhelming as a grandmaster.

    Death as a whole is still quite underwhelming. Which is a shame. You sacrifice too much by taking it. The passive damage bonus's from spite are just much better and the recovery from blood is just better imo. Which is a bit strange to say since normally I feel recovery is worse than defense, but from the necromancer's design they'd almost rather have the recovery since they don't have invuln or blocks. But that's an argument i could be convinced of otherwise.

    Yeah thats how i felt it overall about it the sustain gained is minimal at least in spvp and having more offensive pressure provides a better defense than death does with its toughness increases.
    Toughness is nice but overall toughness never felt like it done a whole lot for me so having a potential extra 600 for a short time is not doing much.
    Do note though when combined with blood magic and vampuric wells your protection up time can go rather high but sitll thats a boon that can be stolen or stripped off you with ease.

    I question which line should really have the supportive roles to be honest i always though that was suppose to be blood magic but blood magic ends up being the sustain line while death is just "meh" possibly overall worse than it was on average.
    They did fix the death nova bug finally although they never listed it. It actually lands a strike now where as before the strike damage was never applied.

    It might be nice if soul comp was changed to maybe when stacks fall off they are consumed for life force or something idk just something more active that happens in combat rather than at the end of combat

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

    Those are the passive conditions that the reaper brings. Its just a part of their kit at all times unless greatsword isn't included. Which is possible. Unholy Sanctuary honestly shouldn't exist. We should have a more supportive option. And Honestly, after testing it a bit, to get a feel. The entire trait line feels clunky. The extra defense is nice but the sacrifice you need to make to get it is just too much. And I was right about my prediction of an Average of 15 stacks. You can push to 30 super easily, but maintaining is closer to 15. Which I personally think Corruptor's Fervor should also pulse a single stack of Stability along with the protection. At the moment it feels underwhelming as a grandmaster.

    Death as a whole is still quite underwhelming. Which is a shame. You sacrifice too much by taking it. The passive damage bonus's from spite are just much better and the recovery from blood is just better imo. Which is a bit strange to say since normally I feel recovery is worse than defense, but from the necromancer's design they'd almost rather have the recovery since they don't have invuln or blocks. But that's an argument i could be convinced of otherwise.

    Yeah thats how i felt it overall about it the sustain gained is minimal at least in spvp and having more offensive pressure provides a better defense than death does with its toughness increases.
    Toughness is nice but overall toughness never felt like it done a whole lot for me so having a potential extra 600 for a short time is not doing much.
    Do note though when combined with blood magic and vampuric wells your protection up time can go rather high but sitll thats a boon that can be stolen or stripped off you with ease.

    I question which line should really have the supportive roles to be honest i always though that was suppose to be blood magic but blood magic ends up being the sustain line while death is just "meh" possibly overall worse than it was on average.
    They did fix the death nova bug finally although they never listed it. It actually lands a strike now where as before the strike damage was never applied.

    It might be nice if soul comp was changed to maybe when stacks fall off they are consumed for life force or something idk just something more active that happens in combat rather than at the end of combat

    I'm of the opinion that death and blood can both be support specs. That's not a controversial statement imo. One heals and the other can condi and boon support.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

    Those are the passive conditions that the reaper brings. Its just a part of their kit at all times unless greatsword isn't included. Which is possible. Unholy Sanctuary honestly shouldn't exist. We should have a more supportive option. And Honestly, after testing it a bit, to get a feel. The entire trait line feels clunky. The extra defense is nice but the sacrifice you need to make to get it is just too much. And I was right about my prediction of an Average of 15 stacks. You can push to 30 super easily, but maintaining is closer to 15. Which I personally think Corruptor's Fervor should also pulse a single stack of Stability along with the protection. At the moment it feels underwhelming as a grandmaster.

    Death as a whole is still quite underwhelming. Which is a shame. You sacrifice too much by taking it. The passive damage bonus's from spite are just much better and the recovery from blood is just better imo. Which is a bit strange to say since normally I feel recovery is worse than defense, but from the necromancer's design they'd almost rather have the recovery since they don't have invuln or blocks. But that's an argument i could be convinced of otherwise.

    Yeah thats how i felt it overall about it the sustain gained is minimal at least in spvp and having more offensive pressure provides a better defense than death does with its toughness increases.
    Toughness is nice but overall toughness never felt like it done a whole lot for me so having a potential extra 600 for a short time is not doing much.
    Do note though when combined with blood magic and vampuric wells your protection up time can go rather high but sitll thats a boon that can be stolen or stripped off you with ease.

    I question which line should really have the supportive roles to be honest i always though that was suppose to be blood magic but blood magic ends up being the sustain line while death is just "meh" possibly overall worse than it was on average.
    They did fix the death nova bug finally although they never listed it. It actually lands a strike now where as before the strike damage was never applied.

    It might be nice if soul comp was changed to maybe when stacks fall off they are consumed for life force or something idk just something more active that happens in combat rather than at the end of combat

    I'm of the opinion that death and blood can both be support specs. That's not a controversial statement imo. One heals and the other can condi and boon support.

    A solid boon support necro build would be awesome. I usually opt for more healing ideas when it comes to things like death magic but now that you say it...... if death magic provided legit boon support i could get 100% behind that in pve lol.

    Though for boon support i think we will need more than just might, and protection :bleep_bloop:

  • HyperLooser.2698HyperLooser.2698 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    my reaper rune- shout- chill- bleed- greatsword reaper insta gets max 30 stacks and maintains them at 30 through the entire fight. Using Spite line so the vulnerability stacks when chill quickly builds up stacks.

    Having perma prot and 300 power+600 tougness is amazing+ condi damage reduction.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A good read

    Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.

    The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
    I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.

    While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
    Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.

    I also agree
    Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
    Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
    And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.

    I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.

    I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.

    I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.

    Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
    With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.

    In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.

    Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.

    Vuln, chill, blind and cripple are extremely common for reaper. As well as poison from death spiral. I think its far more common than you think. Maybe if you're using minions that die. it could be an argument. But there is absolutely no reason for Unholy Sanctuary.

    In its current form no.
    IF it was actually updated or changed then yes it could provide generous sustain in spvp more so than corruptors fervor for core and reaper builds through hp replenishment.
    Thats a really phat "IF" though. I would opt for a few hundred hp per second over increased toughness but in this current reality the trait is still weaker than regeneration.

    While the conditions you called out are common it still depends on the content and game mode you are playing. As not every set up for optimal reaper uses over killing amounts of those conditions. I think those conditions are more applicable to spvp and wvw more so than pve as reaper needs not worrying about applying vuln for pve group content for example its better off opting for more damage. You also dont really need to worry about applying chill yourself in pve group content unless you see that the chill up time is low and falling off consistently which lowers your damage.

    I definitely still agree with you CF is the most bang for you buck its still the best option but i really do think that if they put a bit of love into Unholy it could have potentially been a better option for pure power sustain.

    Those are the passive conditions that the reaper brings. Its just a part of their kit at all times unless greatsword isn't included. Which is possible. Unholy Sanctuary honestly shouldn't exist. We should have a more supportive option. And Honestly, after testing it a bit, to get a feel. The entire trait line feels clunky. The extra defense is nice but the sacrifice you need to make to get it is just too much. And I was right about my prediction of an Average of 15 stacks. You can push to 30 super easily, but maintaining is closer to 15. Which I personally think Corruptor's Fervor should also pulse a single stack of Stability along with the protection. At the moment it feels underwhelming as a grandmaster.

    Death as a whole is still quite underwhelming. Which is a shame. You sacrifice too much by taking it. The passive damage bonus's from spite are just much better and the recovery from blood is just better imo. Which is a bit strange to say since normally I feel recovery is worse than defense, but from the necromancer's design they'd almost rather have the recovery since they don't have invuln or blocks. But that's an argument i could be convinced of otherwise.

    Yeah thats how i felt it overall about it the sustain gained is minimal at least in spvp and having more offensive pressure provides a better defense than death does with its toughness increases.
    Toughness is nice but overall toughness never felt like it done a whole lot for me so having a potential extra 600 for a short time is not doing much.
    Do note though when combined with blood magic and vampuric wells your protection up time can go rather high but sitll thats a boon that can be stolen or stripped off you with ease.

    I question which line should really have the supportive roles to be honest i always though that was suppose to be blood magic but blood magic ends up being the sustain line while death is just "meh" possibly overall worse than it was on average.
    They did fix the death nova bug finally although they never listed it. It actually lands a strike now where as before the strike damage was never applied.

    It might be nice if soul comp was changed to maybe when stacks fall off they are consumed for life force or something idk just something more active that happens in combat rather than at the end of combat

    I'm of the opinion that death and blood can both be support specs. That's not a controversial statement imo. One heals and the other can condi and boon support.

    A solid boon support necro build would be awesome. I usually opt for more healing ideas when it comes to things like death magic but now that you say it...... if death magic provided legit boon support i could get 100% behind that in pve lol.

    Though for boon support i think we will need more than just might, and protection :bleep_bloop:

    100% Agreed. I've mentioned before protection and resistance. But I've also mentioned something different like giving necromancer the means to give allies the ability to transfer condition. The sky really is the limit.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    my reaper rune- shout- chill- bleed- greatsword reaper insta gets max 30 stacks and maintains them at 30 through the entire fight. Using Spite line so the vulnerability stacks when chill quickly builds up stacks.

    Having perma prot and 300 power+600 tougness is amazing+ condi damage reduction.

    Ahhh you're making me wish so bad that I had time to play! :'(

    WvW™ - where you find more Red Rings of Death than an Xbox repair facility.

  • Guys I was trying to build a poison spec relying on the trait where minions die and creat poison nova and then new ones would rise and when killed another poison nova( i think this is how it is suposed to work) but i tried that in wvw again large numbers and i see no poison being applied and those are suposed to be unblocable. Anyone?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikhael.2391 said:
    Guys I was trying to build a poison spec relying on the trait where minions die and creat poison nova and then new ones would rise and when killed another poison nova( i think this is how it is suposed to work) but i tried that in wvw again large numbers and i see no poison being applied and those are suposed to be unblocable. Anyone?

    First you got an ICD on the minion spawn. Second, in WvW, the probabilities are higher that the criter will die to an aoe before even coming close to your foes. The lesser poison cloud itself don't last long so...

    Your theory craft itself was good, in practice it doesn't have a high probability to work.

  • @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    my reaper rune- shout- chill- bleed- greatsword reaper insta gets max 30 stacks and maintains them at 30 through the entire fight. Using Spite line so the vulnerability stacks when chill quickly builds up stacks.

    Having perma prot and 300 power+600 tougness is amazing+ condi damage reduction.

    Careful, if you are having too much fun it will get nerfed. Pretty sure that is how it works. :)

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A poison-reaper would require viper for full effectiveness, yes? Here you'd not want to take Flesh of the Master to ensure they will die faster, id hazard. But id think that you quickly become hamstrung by skill cds. And lesser poison cloud got renamed to poison nova. But the jagged horror summoning from Death Nova should keep you with generated jagged horrors.

  • @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    my reaper rune- shout- chill- bleed- greatsword reaper insta gets max 30 stacks and maintains them at 30 through the entire fight. Using Spite line so the vulnerability stacks when chill quickly builds up stacks.

    Having perma prot and 300 power+600 tougness is amazing+ condi damage reduction.

    care to share the build for me to have a look and gear?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikhael.2391 said:

    @HyperLooser.2698 said:
    my reaper rune- shout- chill- bleed- greatsword reaper insta gets max 30 stacks and maintains them at 30 through the entire fight. Using Spite line so the vulnerability stacks when chill quickly builds up stacks.

    Having perma prot and 300 power+600 tougness is amazing+ condi damage reduction.

    care to share the build for me to have a look and gear?

    Probably something like that:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAYtjlJwWYNMHWJO2PqtUA-zZx8E85A condi build

    or:

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAEd3lJwWYNMHWJO2PqtaA-z5IeC+cA power build

    Like he said, bitter chill stack vuln very quickly. Using NCSY with rune of the reaper mean that you've already put 10 conditions onto your foe, If there is 3 foes in range your already maxed up in stacks.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone using Flesh Wurm or Spectral Walk as a recall back to your shade?

  • MethaneGas.8357MethaneGas.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    Have you guys tried Death Magic with core condi Necro? Seems pretty legit for soloQ...

    I did Carrion and Scavanger Runes (tentative. Can't decide between Scavanger Runes with sigils for cover condis like Exposure and Doom, or Aristocracy Runes with Battle and Courage sigils.... The Might + Carrion + Deadly Strength can be pretty crazy).... Anyway... you're tanky as hell with vitality, toughness, condi clears, protection, and a buttload of power on top of the condi damage. I could go toe to toe with condi mirages, condi thieves and weavers, which was a huge gamble before this. I need to give it a bit more of a proper test, but I got a bad feeling Death Magic will get a nerf :( either Carapace itself, or Corrupter's Fervor. Bad, bad feeling 😭

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MethaneGas.8357 said:
    Have you guys tried Death Magic with core condi Necro? Seems pretty legit for soloQ...

    I did Carrion and Scavanger Runes (tentative. Can't decide between Scavanger Runes with sigils for cover condis like Exposure and Doom, or Aristocracy Runes with Battle and Courage sigils.... The Might + Carrion + Deadly Strength can be pretty crazy).... Anyway... you're tanky as hell with vitality, toughness, condi clears, protection, and a buttload of power on top of the condi damage. I could go toe to toe with condi mirages, condi thieves and weavers, which was a huge gamble before this. I need to give it a bit more of a proper test, but I got a bad feeling Death Magic will get a nerf :( either Carapace itself, or Corrupter's Fervor. Bad, bad feeling 😭

    Was this for spvp or WVW?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • MethaneGas.8357MethaneGas.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @MethaneGas.8357 said:
    Have you guys tried Death Magic with core condi Necro? Seems pretty legit for soloQ...

    I did Carrion and Scavanger Runes (tentative. Can't decide between Scavanger Runes with sigils for cover condis like Exposure and Doom, or Aristocracy Runes with Battle and Courage sigils.... The Might + Carrion + Deadly Strength can be pretty crazy).... Anyway... you're tanky as hell with vitality, toughness, condi clears, protection, and a buttload of power on top of the condi damage. I could go toe to toe with condi mirages, condi thieves and weavers, which was a huge gamble before this. I need to give it a bit more of a proper test, but I got a bad feeling Death Magic will get a nerf :( either Carapace itself, or Corrupter's Fervor. Bad, bad feeling 😭

    Was this for spvp or WVW?

    It was sPvP. Have not tried how it is in WvW so no ideas there.

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