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Warrior's Cunning


Lan Deathrider.5910

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I don't think so at all given it's to barrier. Sustain is way to high on some classes and barrier has a decent stake in why. With that said if barriers and or sustain gets depowercrept in the future the 50% would definitely have to be dropped to somthing more appropriate like 25% or similar.

Well the barrier soaks up some of the damage, but it's +50% damage if they have barrier, not 50% against the barrier only.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I don't think so at all given it's to barrier. Sustain is way to high on some classes and barrier has a decent stake in why. With that said if barriers and or sustain gets depowercrept in the future the 50% would definitely have to be dropped to somthing more appropriate like 25% or similar.

Well the barrier soaks up some of the damage, but it's +50% damage if they have barrier, not 50% against the barrier only.

Yeah but what does it equate to without barrier. Is it different than a strait 20% increase trait hitting u without barrier?

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I think it will be just fine? I am not sure but I am willing to give this new tactic a tests. Plus let's see something here, the scourge could put barrier into 10 people if traited with F3 plus extra barrier for 5 peopel with Heal skill, if warrior hit those group only half of them will get barrier destroyed, warrior has only 5 max target.

On paper yes 50% maybe seems strong etc2, but in the reality I don't think like warrior could constantly destroy barrier like that, in WvW they have to move around too since they are mostlikely in the front line they have to know when to get in and get out etc2.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Without barrier it's 25% while the target is above 90% health, so still good for opening shots.

Regardless, is the 50% while they have any amount of barrier itself justified, or will there be too few tactics warriors for it to be a problem?

Its only 10% above 90% in pvp and wvw.

I might try out tactics for roaming, in zerg ill use it instead of disciplin as purely support, im not a fan of the dmg zerg warrior, because imo its not efficient, there are way better dmg dealers in the game that dont have to go full melee, also you cant deal dmg while bubbling anyways.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Warrior has to give up alot for tactics.

Yes there will be tears about it and no they wont understand that the warrior that killed them is missing some very important build parts.

But will some of the new things in Tactics become as important?

Whats good enough in new tactics that makes it better then str/def/disc?

I can see core warriors with it but that means no elite.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Will the 50% damage from this trait be too much? Or is the threat of this trait Anet trying to dissuade barrier spam?

There are plenty of you on the warrior forums that can't see dropping defense or discipline for tactics, so will the rarity of this trait being taken be self balancing enough to justify the numbers?

I do not think rarity alone would ever justify design decisions. It is precisely how people react to design decisions, and one does not justify with such for two reasons: a), years of experience have shown that players do not always react to balance changes as the developers intend them to, and b) even if players react as the developers intend, why on earth would the developers intend to get poor reception from their player base? Wouldn't that already suggest a huge sign of failure for them to make something desirable and practical?

Plus, I do not think Barrier spam would ever be successfully dissuaded, since its excess has been more often than not unintentional. In WvW, few Scourge players gear up for Barrier support, yet we still regularly witness overabundance of Barrier. (In an earlier announcement on Sept. 13, a plan was proposed to reduce base Barrier value while increase its scaling with Healing Power. Later in the Oct. 1 announcement, the plan was scrapped and instead we get this Anti-Barrier specialist.) At the very least, as long as there are several people in the group playing Scourge, one would inevitably end up with some shared Barrier on them. And since Scourge is apparently too good an asset to give up upon, there will always be a spot for dedicated Anti-Barrier role.

Would people actually take it though? In other threads you and several others have come up with new tactics, with a few warriors coordinating with each other and focus firing at the same time on the same target, etc. To get the best result, these Warriors will most likely stick with Strength, so either Defense or Discipline will be dropped. Or maybe, the elite specialization. In any case, they'd be more vulnerable and more dependent on support provided by allied Firebrands and Scrappers than what people have been running, only to be made up with Whirlwind Attack with the new Martial Cadence. To make the most out of the 6 s Unblockable effect duration with Signet of Might, They also have to time well and target well, preferably aiming at those close to or within reach of your Scourges, in order for them to follow up after you break through the Barrier and to out-damage the healing, which could be aided with Leg Specialist with Aimed Shot. That seems to me a great lot of effort required than what we currently have. Only in actual combat one could tell if it is worth all these effort.

When it comes to balancing something unique and thus having nothing else directly comparable, I think one needs to look at what countermeasures is available at hand to us. Either people double down on group Barrier, which to me seems unlikely since the relevant skills generally do not scale so well with Healing Power (though we will have to wait until Tuesday to see the numbers on Warhorn skills), or seek to get more group damage reduction. And for the latter we have our good old Frontline Herald with Rite of the Great Dwarf, which requires no investment in attribute points, and, if timed well (when the Barrier is decaying or close to be depleted), could preemptively minimize the threat of being one-shot by opponents with the trait. That, of course, requires coordination, though not as much as the Anti-Barrier Warrior required.

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Against large barriers from desert shroud or bulwark gyro it works as an anti-barrier trait, but then against some pitiful 100 barrier a scrapper may have up from its 15% trait (and has no control over, other than not attacking) this sort of thing is broken.

Just another fine example that they have no clue what they are doing, why PvP / WvW are dead and why virtually no one decent plays this game any more.

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Should we discuss here too about potential strength and weakness from certain spec combination?Usually people use Defense/Disc/Spellbreaker, let's say we swap tactic what will be the Strength and Weakness from Tactic/Disc/Spellbreaker vs Tactic/Defense/Spellbreaker? Or maybe for Zerker which usually Arm/Disc/Zerk change into Tactic/Disc/Zerk vs Tactic/Arm/Zerk?

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@DKRathalos.9625 said:Should we discuss here too about potential strength and weakness from certain spec combination?Usually people use Defense/Disc/Spellbreaker, let's say we swap tactic what will be the Strength and Weakness from Tactic/Disc/Spellbreaker vs Tactic/Defense/Spellbreaker? Or maybe for Zerker which usually Arm/Disc/Zerk change into Tactic/Disc/Zerk vs Tactic/Arm/Zerk?

I think that is a great suggestion, although it will be limited until we see the update on the 1st.

We do know that if a warrior swaps out Defense that they'' most likely be giving up Ardrenal Health, Defy Pain, and Last Stand. Defy Pain and Last Stand are two traits that a large number of warriors need to even live long enough to DPS, and Adrenal Health is fairly good sustained healing over time. Now if you take Tactics instead you get Mender's Might, which we do not know how much it heals for nor if it counts the might you give yourself, but I suspect that Mender's Might will end up being greater sustain than Adrenal Health so long as a certain number of allies are nearby to receive your might. So I'd call swapping Adrenal Health for Mender's Might an even trade. The question is though if Warrior's Cunning and Martial Cadence create enough extra DPS to justify the lack of DP and LS.

For Discipline obviously to dropped goodies are Fast Hands, Warrior's Sprint, and Brawler's Recovery. Shrug It Off or Warhorn may negate the need for Brawler's Recovery, and Martial Cadence may alleviate several reasons to take Fast Hands, but how it plays out in practice will matter. The extra swiftness uptime from Warhorn may justify not having Warrior's Sprint, and the new damage modifier on Leg Specialist may replace the damage modifier on Warrior's Sprint.

I certainly see the potential for Str/Tact/Def, Tact/Def/SpB, and Tact/Def/Zerk bunker builds. I can also see Roamer builds with Arms/Tact/Zerk, these wouldn't be entirely glass since like Defense Tactics has a built in source of sustain.

I think the kicker here is that Warrior is generally a jack of all trades, and the new Tactics is itself a jack of all trades trait line, much like Discipline is. So for the individual warriors choice will come down to if they feel then need more dps without sacrificing too much sustain, or if they want more group support without sacrificing too much of their own DPS.

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Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

I think its an either or situation. If target is above 90% and do 25% more damage, if instead the target had barrier deal 50% more damage instead.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

I think its an either or situation. If target is above 90% and do 25% more damage, if instead the target had barrier deal 50% more damage instead.

If it's the case, it's just stupid. Scourge have nothing else than barrier to save himself when in dire straits, what would be it's option in front of a warrior with this trait? Die or die while struggling? As for scrapper he doesn't even have a choice, he is litteraly forced to build barrier. Barrier is supposed to be a survival tool not a 50% dps buff to your foe.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

I think its an either or situation. If target is above 90% and do 25% more damage, if instead the target had barrier deal 50% more damage instead.

If it's the case, it's just stupid. Scourge have nothing else than barrier to save himself when in dire straits, what would be it's option in front of a warrior with this trait? Die or die while struggling? As for scrapper he doesn't even have a choice, he is litteraly forced to build barrier. Barrier is supposed to be a survival tool not a 50% dps buff to your foe.

Hence my original commentary.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does.

That actually sounds like a good idea.

They had stuff like this in gw1. Wasn't over powered over there. I just wouldn't give it to warrior because they already have anti-barrier.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

uh, ill just leave this herehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Reprisal

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@DKRathalos.9625 said:Should we discuss here too about potential strength and weakness from certain spec combination?Usually people use Defense/Disc/Spellbreaker, let's say we swap tactic what will be the Strength and Weakness from Tactic/Disc/Spellbreaker vs Tactic/Defense/Spellbreaker? Or maybe for Zerker which usually Arm/Disc/Zerk change into Tactic/Disc/Zerk vs Tactic/Arm/Zerk?

I think that is a great suggestion, although it will be limited until we see the update on the 1st.

We do know that if a warrior swaps out Defense that they'' most likely be giving up Ardrenal Health, Defy Pain, and Last Stand. Defy Pain and Last Stand are two traits that a large number of warriors need to even live long enough to DPS, and Adrenal Health is fairly good sustained healing over time. Now if you take Tactics instead you get Mender's Might, which we do not know how much it heals for nor if it counts the might you give yourself, but I suspect that Mender's Might will end up being greater sustain than Adrenal Health so long as a certain number of allies are nearby to receive your might. So I'd call swapping Adrenal Health for Mender's Might an even trade. The question is though if Warrior's Cunning and Martial Cadence create enough extra DPS to justify the lack of DP and LS.

For Discipline obviously to dropped goodies are Fast Hands, Warrior's Sprint, and Brawler's Recovery. Shrug It Off or Warhorn may negate the need for Brawler's Recovery, and Martial Cadence may alleviate several reasons to take Fast Hands, but how it plays out in practice will matter. The extra swiftness uptime from Warhorn may justify not having Warrior's Sprint, and the new damage modifier on Leg Specialist may replace the damage modifier on Warrior's Sprint.

I certainly see the potential for Str/Tact/Def, Tact/Def/SpB, and Tact/Def/Zerk bunker builds. I can also see Roamer builds with Arms/Tact/Zerk, these wouldn't be entirely glass since like Defense Tactics has a built in source of sustain.

I think the kicker here is that Warrior is generally a jack of all trades, and the new Tactics is itself a jack of all trades trait line, much like Discipline is. So for the individual warriors choice will come down to if they feel then need more dps without sacrificing too much sustain, or if they want more group support without sacrificing too much of their own DPS.

a tactic/defense/berserker bunker build ?? how is that supposed to work, berserk is everything but a bunker specc imoi also dont think that the might you give yourself works with that trait, it would be basically the same trait as mmr, just that affected allies are part of it aswell.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Just imagine the uproar if there was a trait that make unblockable hits deal 50% more damage when going throught a block or invuln, that's basically what this trait does. It's difficult to understand the reasoning behind such a trait but, as long as it only work when the target health is above 90% (whether there is barrier or not) it should be "fine".

Honnestly, if the trait proc when the health isn't above 90% it will be a broken trait, whether it stand in a useless traitline or not.

uh, ill just leave this here

@DKRathalos.9625 said:Should we discuss here too about potential strength and weakness from certain spec combination?Usually people use Defense/Disc/Spellbreaker, let's say we swap tactic what will be the Strength and Weakness from Tactic/Disc/Spellbreaker vs Tactic/Defense/Spellbreaker? Or maybe for Zerker which usually Arm/Disc/Zerk change into Tactic/Disc/Zerk vs Tactic/Arm/Zerk?

I think that is a great suggestion, although it will be limited until we see the update on the 1st.

We do know that if a warrior swaps out Defense that they'' most likely be giving up Ardrenal Health, Defy Pain, and Last Stand. Defy Pain and Last Stand are two traits that a large number of warriors need to even live long enough to DPS, and Adrenal Health is fairly good sustained healing over time. Now if you take Tactics instead you get Mender's Might, which we do not know how much it heals for nor if it counts the might you give yourself, but I suspect that Mender's Might will end up being greater sustain than Adrenal Health so long as a certain number of allies are nearby to receive your might. So I'd call swapping Adrenal Health for Mender's Might an even trade. The question is though if Warrior's Cunning and Martial Cadence create enough extra DPS to justify the lack of DP and LS.

For Discipline obviously to dropped goodies are Fast Hands, Warrior's Sprint, and Brawler's Recovery. Shrug It Off or Warhorn may negate the need for Brawler's Recovery, and Martial Cadence may alleviate several reasons to take Fast Hands, but how it plays out in practice will matter. The extra swiftness uptime from Warhorn may justify not having Warrior's Sprint, and the new damage modifier on Leg Specialist may replace the damage modifier on Warrior's Sprint.

I certainly see the potential for Str/Tact/Def, Tact/Def/SpB, and Tact/Def/Zerk bunker builds. I can also see Roamer builds with Arms/Tact/Zerk, these wouldn't be entirely glass since like Defense Tactics has a built in source of sustain.

I think the kicker here is that Warrior is generally a jack of all trades, and the new Tactics is itself a jack of all trades trait line, much like Discipline is. So for the individual warriors choice will come down to if they feel then need more dps without sacrificing too much sustain, or if they want more group support without sacrificing too much of their own DPS.

a tactic/defense/berserker bunker build ?? how is that supposed to work, berserk is everything but a bunker specc imoi also dont think that the might you give yourself works with that trait, it would be basically the same trait as mmr, just that affected allies are part of it aswell.

Rousing Resilience with tempest runes. Outrage is a 10s CD stunbreak. Take SiO as well. Savage instinct turns bmode into a stunbreak as well. Such a build focuses on numerous stunbreaks that provide healing and a toughness buff. VS, shrug it off, and I suppose soldiers comfort in tactics line.

Round out the healing slot, third utility, and elite as you see fit.

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Well, it seems to be a very strong trait in certain situations (but also useless in some situations), making tactics finally worth taking over other more used traitlines.I am 99% sure it will be nerfed next balance patch to like 20-30% (as usual). Probably more reasonable would be 25% and it is stackable with "25% damage bonus against enemies above 90% HP" for some big burst builds. But at least there will be some hilarious moments for some time :)

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Honestly I don't see an issue with an insane multiplier like that. Why? Because Warrior for such a long time easily could stack beyond 50+% damage multiplier just from 2 traits alone (Berserker's Power + that 30% after using a Physical). They know they have to make this previously almost useless traitline appealing to take over those other ones that have such useful traits that are this easy to access.

The only issue with this might be a Core Warrior that tries to get ALL of them for some cheese, but even then one shot warrior already exists and is a one trick pony only.

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