People HATE my class! Why? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

People HATE my class! Why?

birdboy.6509birdboy.6509 Member ✭✭
edited September 30, 2019 in PVP

I've been a Thief player since launch, and an Assassin player in Gw1 since before that.
I have noticed that all the years I've played this class - It tends to get more forum posts and diehard haters than any other class. (except maybe mesmer)

Why is that? It's really simple guys. It is wildly different than all of the other classes. It's way of surviving is entirely based around evades, ports, and stealths. It's method of dealing damage is fast and high burst. A player who mains warrior that could be good at dealing with holos, soulbeasts, or weavers, might struggle with a thief or mesmer because the tactic they were using to beat those other classes doesn't work as well. And so, this player gets frustrated, he or she feels the class is broken because it is able to do something the other classes can't do.
And then that player comes here, to complain about it. But herein lies the essence of the issue.

IT'S NOT THE SPEC
And no, before you tear me to shreds I'm not defending or debating any of the current specs. This post isn't about that - It's about bringing some awareness that no matter what the meta, no matter what the spec - whenever thief (or mesmer) is good - a lot of people complain. For the sake of the argument - let's take a look at DP thief. It is now regarded as a skillful thief spec, but years ago when it was still viable I used to read forum posts about it much like the ones you see here. A few trigger words that I saw then and see now is "evade" "spammy" "stupid" "brainless".
It's just the way the class works guys, It uses initiative so it's "spammy" - it's squishy so it evades and ports, it has low sustained pressure so it bursts hard, it can't hold a node so it can run across the map and take one back. These are all things that make thief what it is, and i'm tired of reading posts saying that's not how it should be. The entire purpose of a class system is for each and every one to be different, and have their own unique role.

My advice for PvPers who struggle with thief, and any other class for that matter - give it a try - you'll learn how they work and what to do against them. And if that's not something you want to do then use the 60 seconds you are given when you load into a match to counter spec if you see something you struggle with.
I realize there's a lot of trolls on the forums, but if there are any reasonable people out there reading this - don't give clout or credence to the people who come to the forums to purely complain about any class in a negative, nonconstructive and uneducated manner. For example, look at the title of the #1 trending holosmith thread. Why is a post like that the basis for constructive conversation for holosmith when the main issue of the class is entirely misdiagnosed?
That's all for now. Thanks for reading.

Comments

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2019

    Op, let's compromise. Let us ask Anet to change the name of the game to somethig else?

    That would resolve everything.

    What do you think?

  • Thanks to birdboys post I decided to play thief. It’s like 7 years into the game but I’m slowly learning. It seems no matter how hard I try I cannot hold nodes and I just get plus 1d. I think it’s really hard to play thief in this meta with all those holosmith s running around but I’ll keep trying and reading birdboys post so I can eventually get good at thief. Thank you bird boy for your dedication to forum post.
    -your diehard fan

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm bad enough at it, that a good chunk of people think thief is free food - trash.

    So, there.

    Balance.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Mot peoples' issues with theif can be resolved by giving their traitlines a read.

  • @Onlysaneman.9612 said:
    So, as somebody who generally does not like thieves (among a few other classes) I feel like I should take a shot at giving my answer for whatever help or satisfaction that might be to OP. Some general context and notes before I get into it. 1) I play warrior almost exclusively for pvp modes, but I've been doing it long enough that I feel I generally have a good grasp of the other professions. 2) I haven't played sPvP in a long time and stick mostly to WvW (where thief roamers are significantly more obnoxious) but I'll try to keep my answer to those areas largely applicable to both. 3) This is all just based on my general personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. And, finally, 4) I don't have anything personally against thief players, or the players of other classes I don't like. Nor do I necessarily feel they're overpowered or need any sort of nerf (although there are maybe certain things I wish would be tweaked).

    The short of it is just that I don't generally find thieves fun to fight against. When fighting most classes- even when a given class or build is overtuned- there's a certain amount of back and forth. Both sides will be clearly visible with a few tools for any given purpose (movement, stunbreak, invuln, CC, so on), and attacks will involve some sort of significant tell or animation. If I get hit by a ranger's Maul, it's because either they've managed to exhaust my other defenses, locked me down with a CC first, or I failed to dodge it despite seeing it coming. Same with a holo burst, or to some degree necro marks or DH traps. I may take some amount of damage from auto attacks or other minor sources not really feasible to or worth dodging, but if I die it's going to be mainly because I made obvious mistakes and ate too many big attacks. As far as defenses go, sure, an engi or ranger might stop a good Bull's Charge into burst combo with an invuln, but at least that's a defense that's gone for a good while (likely the rest of the fight). Ultimately, unless one side FAR outclasses the other or is somehow a natural counter, fights between most classes will at least feel like both parties got some good hits in. That FEELS good, and leads to a lot less frustration about the outcome of any given fight. And I know it's maybe not entirely fair, but how a game FEELS to play does matter- we're here to have fun after all.

    That brings me to thief. You're right, thief does have a different playstyle from most of the classes in this game. Thief attacks are, as you describe, fast and high burst. More important than just being -fast-, however, is that there's no clear single burst to dodge. Thief spikes involve either an attack from stealth (which by definition does not have a clear tell) or a series of quick, high-damage attacks covered by blind or daze before moving back out of range of counter-attacks. Neither these attacks nor the steal/shadowshot/whatever else is typically telegraphed to the degree that other classes' attacks are. I want to point out that, whether thief burst is actually strong in any given meta, this is not particularly fun or satisfying to fight against. Dodging a Maul or a CC meant to set up a Maul feels good, like you've just negated a major offensive tool and can now take advantage and pressure them back. Dodging away from half an auto chain or a heartseeker feels like... kind of a waste of a dodge, even if ultimately the damage negated was worth it. Defensively, thief has kind of the same problem. Thief doesn't have a lot of big defenses. Low armor, low health, not much as far as invulns. So, to compensate they have lots of little bite sized defenses. More dodges. Short blinds. Fast interrupts. And between that they have ways of removing themselves from danger while they wait for those to become available again- stealth skills and teleports. If I manage to hit a DD with Bull's Charge, and they use Bandit's Defense to protect themselves from the followup burst, then they'll have it ready again BEFORE the attack that forced them to use it. Despite landing a key part of any warrior's setup, it doesn't actually feel like I've accomplished anything (just as an example). Whereas if they catch me with a good combo and force an Endure Pain, that skill is done for the next minute while they'll probably be able to burst again in a few seconds.

    Again, I'm not saying thieves are overpowered, or that there isn't any kind of counter play to what they can do. They NEED all of those tools to be even remotely viable. I'm just trying to expand on your point. If somebody does pvp because they like the combat system and want good fights, it would then be expected that they'd dislike those classes that they don't think provide good fights. This is, I expect, why thieves (and mesmers, who I usually feel similarly about) get a lot of particular hate on here. Both share the tendency towards lots of small, short defenses and being able to do lots of damage without landing singular, clearly telegraphed attacks. When fighting a thief, it often feels like I just have to hope they make a mistake while doing what I can to keep myself alive in the meantime, and winning a fight through one "lucky" hit that doesn't get dodged feels a lot less satisfying to me than seeing an eviscerate coming and catching it with Full Counter or a Bull's Charge into followup burst. There's probably other aspects to it- in WvW they can run away forever, and in sPvP their primary purpose has always been to move around the map, decap, and +1 (which, if you were so inclined, could fairly or not be read as "jump in and ruin what was shaping up to be a good fight"). But as I said, I've been away from sPvP for a bit, so I'll leave commenting on that to others.

    YES. Thank you! There is NO WAY I could have said it better. I echo all those comments. You should be praised not only for your poignant points but, your tact as well. The hatred I feel for thieves (and often Mesmers) is far too overpowering for me to add constructively to this conversation so, I can't thank you enough. In closing, let just me add, that Thieves are overpowered cowards that are ruining the game. Thank you again.

  • Only thing I can complain about it not the thief itself but the stealth mechanic. On a successful strike they become seen. But if I block that first attack they stay invis... and can reset.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Generally everything in the game has a punishment if you use it. Well nearly everything. There is no punishment for stealth, and it's spammable, that is why people hate both thieves and mesmers.

    Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

    Think of it this way, many people take issue with warriors and how many completely damage negating options they have. They basically can run in the middle of 50 peeps and run back out completely unharmed. Imagine if you were to try and jump a warrior, and for 1-2 min straight you got nothing but "block block block block block block block block block". You'd be pretty PO'd too. As you were trying to attack them, they'd be standing there pressing 1 hitting you while blocking everything you threw at them. That is in essence what it's like against a thief. Pretty much unlimited stealth; reveal? Nope, their elite negates that by having 2 charges on relatively low recharge times.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Generally everything in the game has a punishment if you use it. Well nearly everything. There is no punishment for stealth, and it's spammable, that is why people hate both thieves and mesmers.

    Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

    Think of it this way, many people take issue with warriors and how many completely damage negating options they have. They basically can run in the middle of 50 peeps and run back out completely unharmed. Imagine if you were to try and jump a warrior, and for 1-2 min straight you got nothing but "block block block block block block block block block". You'd be pretty PO'd too. As you were trying to attack them, they'd be standing there pressing 1 hitting you while blocking everything you threw at them. That is in essence what it's like against a thief. Pretty much unlimited stealth; reveal? Nope, their elite negates that by having 2 charges on relatively low recharge times.

    Pardon, that was a tad rude of me.

    'Many people take issue with...' - eh. No, not really. And no, they can't. No, they can't block for minutes at a time. Daggerstorm > DE elite - the meta for thief is still core, which doesn't have access to the reveal cleanse. Even most DEs take daggerstorm, unless it's some 1-shot meme build wandering around in silver or low gold. Most thief builds are crutching hard on sword right now, too, and have reasonable amounts of stealth. You can still hit someone in stealth. The punishment for having stealth is giving up other types of mitigation , as always. Permastealth builds are a plague in lower ranks, but fall off sharply in effectiveness.

    Do give metabattle and godsofpvp.net a look - a quick glance over the traits of most builds should set you straight. Stealth is nowhere near the godmode you make it out to be, especially in spvp.

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Thanks to birdboys post I decided to play thief. It’s like 7 years into the game but I’m slowly learning. It seems no matter how hard I try I cannot hold nodes and I just get plus 1d. I think it’s really hard to play thief in this meta with all those holosmith s running around but I’ll keep trying and reading birdboys post so I can eventually get good at thief. Thank you bird boy for your dedication to forum post.
    -your diehard fan

    I get it haha

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Generally everything in the game has a punishment if you use it. Well nearly everything. There is no punishment for stealth, and it's spammable, that is why people hate both thieves and mesmers.

    Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

    Think of it this way, many people take issue with warriors and how many completely damage negating options they have. They basically can run in the middle of 50 peeps and run back out completely unharmed. Imagine if you were to try and jump a warrior, and for 1-2 min straight you got nothing but "block block block block block block block block block". You'd be pretty PO'd too. As you were trying to attack them, they'd be standing there pressing 1 hitting you while blocking everything you threw at them. That is in essence what it's like against a thief. Pretty much unlimited stealth; reveal? Nope, their elite negates that by having 2 charges on relatively low recharge times.

    Pardon, that was a tad rude of me.

    'Many people take issue with...' - eh. No, not really. And no, they can't. No, they can't block for minutes at a time. Daggerstorm > DE elite - the meta for thief is still core, which doesn't have access to the reveal cleanse. Even most DEs take daggerstorm, unless it's some 1-shot meme build wandering around in silver or low gold. Most thief builds are crutching hard on sword right now, too, and have reasonable amounts of stealth. You can still hit someone in stealth. The punishment for having stealth is giving up other types of mitigation , as always. Permastealth builds are a plague in lower ranks, but fall off sharply in effectiveness.

    Do give metabattle and godsofpvp.net a look - a quick glance over the traits of most builds should set you straight. Stealth is nowhere near the godmode you make it out to be, especially in spvp.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Generally everything in the game has a punishment if you use it. Well nearly everything. There is no punishment for stealth, and it's spammable, that is why people hate both thieves and mesmers.

    Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

    Think of it this way, many people take issue with warriors and how many completely damage negating options they have. They basically can run in the middle of 50 peeps and run back out completely unharmed. Imagine if you were to try and jump a warrior, and for 1-2 min straight you got nothing but "block block block block block block block block block". You'd be pretty PO'd too. As you were trying to attack them, they'd be standing there pressing 1 hitting you while blocking everything you threw at them. That is in essence what it's like against a thief. Pretty much unlimited stealth; reveal? Nope, their elite negates that by having 2 charges on relatively low recharge times.

    Pardon, that was a tad rude of me.

    'Many people take issue with...' - eh. No, not really. And no, they can't. No, they can't block for minutes at a time. Daggerstorm > DE elite - the meta for thief is still core, which doesn't have access to the reveal cleanse. Even most DEs take daggerstorm, unless it's some 1-shot meme build wandering around in silver or low gold. Most thief builds are crutching hard on sword right now, too, and have reasonable amounts of stealth. You can still hit someone in stealth. The punishment for having stealth is giving up other types of mitigation , as always. Permastealth builds are a plague in lower ranks, but fall off sharply in effectiveness.

    Do give metabattle and godsofpvp.net a look - a quick glance over the traits of most builds should set you straight. Stealth is nowhere near the godmode you make it out to be, especially in spvp.

    I, too, can summon memes in lieu of an actual point. Alas, I don't have a video of a warrior jumping up and down for two minutes to show you.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    Saying that teef is okay and skill required class instead of whining how bad designed it is and that it should be deleted? kitten, bro.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • I played with you earlier. I kinda doubt the problem is all about the class you play, but rather the way you play it, and that's not your fault really.

    That DuoQ was way too powerful, I don't recall if it was just you being on the side of it, or you actually in it, but you were practically glued to your Holosmith(Who just so happened to be a top player) and trying to fight two really good players(That includes you c: ) playing optimal builds with a team of uncoordinated, lower-ranked soloQ players just isn't fun. Getting hopelessly CC'd and melted by conditions as you try to follow up over and over again for the entirety of a match is boring and frustrating, and since people don't often take time to think about it; especially when they're angry, they lash out at you and the class you're playing rather than the real reason they're upset.

    Balance is a 10/10 distraction though. Watch this:

    I don't think condi thief is broken at all. I think Tempest is the real problem. An unskilled and overpowered mess of class that needs nerfs!

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Tldr duoq is broken teef op 😂

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Let me distract you from the original subject of this forum post to talk about the real problem. Duoq.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Any build can oneshot against 1) someone on cooldown(s), 2) someone fighting a bad matchup, or 3) fighting a lower tiered player.

    Thief feels unfair to fight if played perfectly. A well timed blind negates your burst. A series of quick strikes between your defenses and then disappearing until you are vulnerable again.

    Most people don’t play that well.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @op : how can you say people hate your class : you aren't a mesmer. :p

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    @op : how can you say people hate your class : you aren't a mesmer. :p

    They're both the class that sits alone at the guild bar lol they don't even sit with one another as they dislike each other as well lol

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @birdboy.6509 said:
    I've been a Thief player since launch, and an Assassin player in Gw1 since before that.
    I have noticed that all the years I've played this class - It tends to get more forum posts and diehard haters than any other class. (except maybe mesmer)

    Why is that? It's really simple guys. It is wildly different than all of the other classes. It's way of surviving is entirely based around evades, ports, and stealths. It's method of dealing damage is fast and high burst. A player who mains warrior that could be good at dealing with holos, soulbeasts, or weavers, might struggle with a thief or mesmer because the tactic they were using to beat those other classes doesn't work as well. And so, this player gets frustrated, he or she feels the class is broken because it is able to do something the other classes can't do.
    And then that player comes here, to complain about it. But herein lies the essence of the issue.

    IT'S NOT THE SPEC
    And no, before you tear me to shreds I'm not defending or debating any of the current specs. This post isn't about that - It's about bringing some awareness that no matter what the meta, no matter what the spec - whenever thief (or mesmer) is good - a lot of people complain. For the sake of the argument - let's take a look at DP thief. It is now regarded as a skillful thief spec, but years ago when it was still viable I used to read forum posts about it much like the ones you see here. A few trigger words that I saw then and see now is "evade" "spammy" "stupid" "brainless".
    It's just the way the class works guys, It uses initiative so it's "spammy" - it's squishy so it evades and ports, it has low sustained pressure so it bursts hard, it can't hold a node so it can run across the map and take one back. These are all things that make thief what it is, and i'm tired of reading posts saying that's not how it should be. The entire purpose of a class system is for each and every one to be different, and have their own unique role.

    My advice for PvPers who struggle with thief, and any other class for that matter - give it a try - you'll learn how they work and what to do against them. And if that's not something you want to do then use the 60 seconds you are given when you load into a match to counter spec if you see something you struggle with.
    I realize there's a lot of trolls on the forums, but if there are any reasonable people out there reading this - don't give clout or credence to the people who come to the forums to purely complain about any class in a negative, nonconstructive and uneducated manner. For example, look at the title of the #1 trending holosmith thread. Why is a post like that the basis for constructive conversation for holosmith when the main issue of the class is entirely misdiagnosed?
    That's all for now. Thanks for reading.

    I've played thief and for me at least its super easy to rake in kills and defeat opponents. Especially as a Dead-eye because I just perma-stealth and use all my crazy toys (Teleport/Evades) to just out-maneuver them and if I can't beat them I back off. I let them go and seek out a new target because its not worth continuing the hunt if they resist the initial burst more than one time. Which that is how it's always been in every game with stealth classes, they jump you and if they can't kill you they leave because its not worth their effort to finish you.

    World of warcraft, warhammer online and any other game with a stealth character has always had those characters be bashed and hated on. Because a vast majority can't deal with characters that have the kind of tools rogues/stealth assasins have. We even have this issue over in smite where Loki, the morrigan and Au Kuang the three stealth gods are constantly kitten about because of their mechanics. Are they hard to deal with ? No. But the lower skilled players hate them, now its not a one to one ratio though because thieves do have "Too much" tools in their kit.

    If you take daredevil, you get a ton of evades, ton of stealth AND a ton of punching power. If you run Condi/Power Deadeye and you can get your payload off without them being able to do anything about it? Easy game. Hell one thief sure isn't a big deal but when you have more than one you might as well just take your hands off the keyboard, they also have from my experience on the receiving and dishing out end perm-stuns/ all the tools to keep you prone. So even if they can't kill you they can typically just keep you in a state where you will be unable to actually do anything in retaliation. I've had thieves (And I am wearing Marauders or PvT depending on the class for sustain) Burst me from full health to dead. So yes they scale too well, and the hit too hard for all the tools they actually have~ They need to be tuned down a bit... but not gutted.

    I hope this helped clear it up a bit, I love a good thief. A good thief can be fun to fight and a good thief is even better to have; But A thief running cheese or abusing mechanics is the worst thing right up their with a cheesing messmer. You won't do much more than feed the little kitten because you can't catch, fight or even deal with the amount of shenanigans that you have to put up with. (Which sadly now a days seems to be the vast majority.)

    As it stands now as a messmer or thief, if you loose a fight as one then you need to learn your class. Because A good thief/messmer will never loose to any class and thats because they have a crazy absurd amount of tools (Which other classes should also share, I don't want these tools removed I just want a fair chance.)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief the dueling God lol

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    I can tell u 1 thing... when in WvW u are getting kicked out of squad and the reason is "Pick another class. The one that's actually useful" .. U know there's really something wrong with anets balance team. Ofcz community and hypocrisy is also the cause. And i thought they advertise their game as "play as u wish. be a healer. be a damage dealer. make a build on your own terms". And it's totally different. More like "pick a useful class out of like 3 classes and stick to a strict meta build".

    Thief: But i'm teef. We were supposed to be strong and cool and quick and deadly u know?
    Anet: Hold my beer. Imma steal your glory and bury u for good now.
    Thief: Wut the....?!

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I can tell u 1 thing... when in WvW u are getting kicked out of squad and the reason is "Pick another class. The one that's actually useful" .. U know there's really something wrong with anets balance team. Ofcz community and hypocrisy is also the cause. And i thought they advertise their game as "play as u wish. be a healer. be a damage dealer. make a build on your own terms". And it's totally different. More like "pick a useful class out of like 3 classes and stick to a strict meta build".

    Hold on it's always been like that, Rangers got the same treatment at launch and I believe they still do. But this is only specific squad leaders, you can't blame them when you have a class that doesn't offer as much for a team than some of the other options. There is also no need in this game to have a stealth burst dps when everything else is a burst Dps. This comes down to them not using or having the trinity as a core of the games build, they will take classes way more capable of doing group play because the use of said classes is just more unique and beneficial for a squad.

    Perhaps Next E-spec thief will get a spec thats built around group play, but then won't thieves kitten that they can't solo anyone and anything?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    They hate us cuz they a-nus

    Wait! that don't look right.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    Perhaps Next E-spec thief will get a spec thats built around group play, but then won't thieves kitten that they can't solo anyone and anything?

    What are you on about? We already can't solo anything and anyone. Might as well give us a support e-spec then since we can't really 1v1 anymore. +1 and decapping with shortbow#5 isn't really a support. At this point i'd rather put on some cleric amulet and pretend i'm a FB/Tempest healer since we can't do anythin anyway.

    Idk about other things u've mentioned.. but i've never experienced on any of other classes the "you are not welcome to wvw" feeling. Some classes are selfish yes but still they contribute to team effort. Thief tho.. contributes to nothing.

    Thief: But i'm teef. We were supposed to be strong and cool and quick and deadly u know?
    Anet: Hold my beer. Imma steal your glory and bury u for good now.
    Thief: Wut the....?!

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Onlysaneman.9612 said:
    So, as somebody who generally does not like thieves (among a few other classes) I feel like I should take a shot at giving my answer for whatever help or satisfaction that might be to OP. Some general context and notes before I get into it. 1) I play warrior almost exclusively for pvp modes, but I've been doing it long enough that I feel I generally have a good grasp of the other professions. 2) I haven't played sPvP in a long time and stick mostly to WvW (where thief roamers are significantly more obnoxious) but I'll try to keep my answer to those areas largely applicable to both. 3) This is all just based on my general personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. And, finally, 4) I don't have anything personally against thief players, or the players of other classes I don't like. Nor do I necessarily feel they're overpowered or need any sort of nerf (although there are maybe certain things I wish would be tweaked).

    The short of it is just that I don't generally find thieves fun to fight against. When fighting most classes- even when a given class or build is overtuned- there's a certain amount of back and forth. Both sides will be clearly visible with a few tools for any given purpose (movement, stunbreak, invuln, CC, so on), and attacks will involve some sort of significant tell or animation. If I get hit by a ranger's Maul, it's because either they've managed to exhaust my other defenses, locked me down with a CC first, or I failed to dodge it despite seeing it coming. Same with a holo burst, or to some degree necro marks or DH traps. I may take some amount of damage from auto attacks or other minor sources not really feasible to or worth dodging, but if I die it's going to be mainly because I made obvious mistakes and ate too many big attacks. As far as defenses go, sure, an engi or ranger might stop a good Bull's Charge into burst combo with an invuln, but at least that's a defense that's gone for a good while (likely the rest of the fight). Ultimately, unless one side FAR outclasses the other or is somehow a natural counter, fights between most classes will at least feel like both parties got some good hits in. That FEELS good, and leads to a lot less frustration about the outcome of any given fight. And I know it's maybe not entirely fair, but how a game FEELS to play does matter- we're here to have fun after all.

    That brings me to thief. You're right, thief does have a different playstyle from most of the classes in this game. Thief attacks are, as you describe, fast and high burst. More important than just being -fast-, however, is that there's no clear single burst to dodge. Thief spikes involve either an attack from stealth (which by definition does not have a clear tell) or a series of quick, high-damage attacks covered by blind or daze before moving back out of range of counter-attacks. Neither these attacks nor the steal/shadowshot/whatever else is typically telegraphed to the degree that other classes' attacks are. I want to point out that, whether thief burst is actually strong in any given meta, this is not particularly fun or satisfying to fight against. Dodging a Maul or a CC meant to set up a Maul feels good, like you've just negated a major offensive tool and can now take advantage and pressure them back. Dodging away from half an auto chain or a heartseeker feels like... kind of a waste of a dodge, even if ultimately the damage negated was worth it. Defensively, thief has kind of the same problem. Thief doesn't have a lot of big defenses. Low armor, low health, not much as far as invulns. So, to compensate they have lots of little bite sized defenses. More dodges. Short blinds. Fast interrupts. And between that they have ways of removing themselves from danger while they wait for those to become available again- stealth skills and teleports. If I manage to hit a DD with Bull's Charge, and they use Bandit's Defense to protect themselves from the followup burst, then they'll have it ready again BEFORE the attack that forced them to use it. Despite landing a key part of any warrior's setup, it doesn't actually feel like I've accomplished anything (just as an example). Whereas if they catch me with a good combo and force an Endure Pain, that skill is done for the next minute while they'll probably be able to burst again in a few seconds.

    Again, I'm not saying thieves are overpowered, or that there isn't any kind of counter play to what they can do. They NEED all of those tools to be even remotely viable. I'm just trying to expand on your point. If somebody does pvp because they like the combat system and want good fights, it would then be expected that they'd dislike those classes that they don't think provide good fights. This is, I expect, why thieves (and mesmers, who I usually feel similarly about) get a lot of particular hate on here. Both share the tendency towards lots of small, short defenses and being able to do lots of damage without landing singular, clearly telegraphed attacks. When fighting a thief, it often feels like I just have to hope they make a mistake while doing what I can to keep myself alive in the meantime, and winning a fight through one "lucky" hit that doesn't get dodged feels a lot less satisfying to me than seeing an eviscerate coming and catching it with Full Counter or a Bull's Charge into followup burst. There's probably other aspects to it- in WvW they can run away forever, and in sPvP their primary purpose has always been to move around the map, decap, and +1 (which, if you were so inclined, could fairly or not be read as "jump in and ruin what was shaping up to be a good fight"). But as I said, I've been away from sPvP for a bit, so I'll leave commenting on that to others.

    For those who dont read wall of texts;

    It is worth the read, even if you may not agree with this person. We need more thought-out, cool-headed comments like this that try to see the topic from both sides of the argument.


    I agree that my issue with dealing with thieves, mesmers and holos are because of the poor tell they often come with, as well as their ability to engage/disengage from just about any fight, and fight only on their terms. It often feels that killing them is usually due to over commitment on their part, or big mistake, or overestimation of themselves, rather than my ability as a player to finish them off.
    It just doesnt feel good to be constantly blinded, CCed, cant move (torment), cant use abilities (confusion), and then having very small windows of opportunity to strike back. When I'm fighting a warrior/guardian/ele/ranger/necro/revs I know whats coming at me and when, I know I can time my abilities and how to budget my dodges/stunbreakers/condi cleanses, but cant say the same about thieves, mesmers, holos.

  • @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

    While I'm willing to debate reasonable suggestions for balancing the stealth mechanic, let's not go that far.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    stealth of thief is not a problem, it's the full map teleport, look like a hack, thiefs can just leave/back to the fight without being punished, they need to make shadowstep and infiltrator arrow cost 8-10 initiative points, also remove the return from shadowsteps, now if they jump on someone they have to fight

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    stealth of thief is not a problem, it's the full map teleport, look like a hack, thiefs can just leave/back to the fight without being punished, they need to make shadowstep and infiltrator arrow cost 8-10 initiative points, also remove the return from shadowsteps, now if they jump on someone they have to fight

    Yeah no this is a ridiculously bad idea, let's make one infiltrator arrow use up so much on the thiefs ini that it cannot even preform any weapon skill after but a auto attack lmao seeing as ini is its global resource and maxed at 12 without trickery. So much wow factor in the negative bias against thief in this community lol.

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