New Shade Mechanic — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New Shade Mechanic

Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 1, 2019 in Necromancer

This change is insane. Please revert it. Scourge is almost consistently kitten in terms of damage potential with every patch but this one is just way too severe specifically because of ruining synergy with Sand Sage and Sadistic Searing. Mobs aren't static in this game, especially in use cases where it remotely matters like T4 Fractals. Having less than as many shades up as possible constantly is hamstringing your DPS as scourge. Now you are punished for trying to pursue that synergy - mob moves out of your shades? Congratulations, you're screwed and a gigantic chunk of your damage just evaporated. We need the ability to act as an additional shade for the purpose of pursuing mobs and even if you want to argue the support focus angle, great, hope you enjoy denying your allies that condi cleanse or little bit of barrier that would've helped them because they're a metre away from your shade.

It feels like you intrinsically gave the ability for Scourge to deal DPS and now you're trying to hammer it into those of us who like the playstyle that we're wrong. It sucks, taking away the little flexibility we have is excessively punishing. We can't even destroy shades so if we're out of them and the mob runs off we can potentially be waiting twelve or more seconds contributing next to nothing to our teammates. What the hell am I supposed to do in Snowblind now? Shaman leaps so I get to spend a quarter of a minute twiddling my thumbs saying 'sorry I'm dead weight again guys'? Situations like that aren't at all the exception either - that isn't even taking into account how many people obliviously knock mobs out of your shades. This is the most damaging update in a single patch Scourge has ever received, worse than the bug on launch, nerf to compensate or the bug being fixed and nerf never reverted.

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Comments

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the change is mainly targeting the WvW pirate ship meta, while I agree the meta needs to be nerfed as it makes WvW rather stale, but i feel the dev approached the nerf in the wrong direction, perhaps we scourage mains feels too entitled cos of the existing mechanic since PoF day 1 ?

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    Well from PvP point of view, i take scouge bloodmagic and deathmagic and i placed shade only if i knew i have friends around and it was decent(btw thanks to dearh magic you are conditank 30% reduction while have protection). Best performance i had on scourge.

    But i understand how frastrating have to be this in PvE

    Jokaurene

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    The mechanical change itself is good. It should have been this way since day 1. Either the scourge or the shade should deal damage.

    ANet already mentioned that buffs might follow now and the most important thing is that now it's actually possible to buff the spec as its insane area coverage got crippled.

    Scourges should be thankful that it's now possible to develop the spec to something better than an aoe bomber with 500 buttons to press and each of these having only a minor impact.

    Additionally: Curses, DM Condi Scourges on condi + vita gear might be broken in PvP and smallscale now as they got a huge amount of sustain.

  • Waldrun.8493Waldrun.8493 Member ✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    This change completely ruined the sand shade mechanic for much of PvE. Casting them in any situation where you or a boss are frequently moving feels like it's too much of a liability given that It's super easy to run out of charges with the current 15 second count cooldown and once out you're essentially locked out of your shade abilities. Tough luck if you place your last charge and the mob immediately runs out of it! It's like they don't want us to even bother placing sand shades at all which would be an outright dps loss given that we rely on them for ~10% condi duration. I'm probably just going to equip a malice sigil and forgo sand shades entirely on bosses like matthias and soulless horror and save myself the frustration (or just play a different build...). Scourge was already bottom tier in PvE and now it no longer has the versatility that made it special to begin with.

    Even on bosses that don't move in raids, we are now forced to place all of our shades on the boss now rather than spread them out to help take care of add's or a seperate mini-boss which defeats the original purpose of sand shades ("play the field"). Sand shades in raids now feel like their only purpose is to just boost your expertise on stationary bosses and not much else. They could still be usable on moving bosses, but they would have to be rationed rather than used to their full potential for utility and the expertise bonus.

    They could mitigate this nerf to PvE scourge by significantly lowering the cooldown to manifest sandshade, but it would still be annoying and overly restrictive compared to just reverting this awful change. Giving up your mobile PBAoE field (for 20s!) feels like too much of a trade-off for placing sand shades in much of PvE. Even with the reduced cooldown with sand savant traited it is still easy to run out of charges and be screwed over. RIP using my scourge with sand savant to farm labyrinth this Halloween.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    I doubt my criticism will get anywhere because of the manner it's delivered in but it's hard to keep being unbothered by having your throat stomped in patch after patch because of concerns that probably only exist in of WvW and PvP anyway. At least you split more changes this time. That's the only positive thing I can say.

    Don't worry, the change killed Scourge in PvP as well.
    I also try to be productive in my criticism, and have been so plenty in the past, but eventually it just gets to you.

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The mechanical change itself is good. It should have been this way since day 1. Either the scourge or the shade should deal damage.

    ANet already mentioned that buffs might follow now and the most important thing is that now it's actually possible to buff the spec as its insane area coverage got crippled.

    Scourges should be thankful that it's now possible to develop the spec to something better than an aoe bomber with 500 buttons to press and each of these having only a minor impact.

    I agree, but those mythical buffs should come in the same patch, especially since Anet have done this hundreds of times over the 7 years by now. Break Necro, which is already struggling to find any relevance in especially PvE, say it's to make room for future improvements, and then nothing comes for months, or rather usually years, leaving Necro in that busted state, until the Next Elite spec with a even more broken profession mechanic that has to compensate for how lacklustre the core design of Necro is arrives, which then causes all sorts of problems, until it's cause for half baked and badly thought out nerfes again, to repeat the cycle over the next 2+ years of uselessness.

    Additionally: Curses, DM Condi Scourges on condi + vita gear might be broken in PvP and smallscale now as they got a huge amount of sustain.

    I find that hard to imagine, as I see it getting bursted and chain CC'ed pretty hard without any ability to counter pressure after the Shade change in melee, and the stacks being impossible to maintain well without constant massive cleave without getting focused or cc'ed.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • PeLi.5498PeLi.5498 Member ✭✭

    Rip scourge for me, I hate pirateship. Hello again my dear reaper

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    How does this change ruined PvE? Just play melee! You are the class with the highest health pool and tons of barrier. It's ridiculous to complain for PvE if all you got was buffs (more targets and more sustain options via Death Magic). The nerfs have only an impact in WvW. Even in PvP in capture point fights they are irrelevant.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    Without shade you ignore lot of trait buffs...so you wanna place it.

    I agree in pvp with DM and condi it is pretty strong. So not much shifting here.

    Jokaurene

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    How does this change ruined PvE? Just play melee!

    Without any shades? Do you play scourge at all? Half our damage modifier traits rely on shades being placed.
    Reaper is far better in melee, especially compared to shade-less scourge.

    In open world PvE it's still playable, of course. Yes, it's a nerf, but farming still works. However, I won't even try to enter PvP with this change. And I can imagine the effects on raids and higher fractals are far more noticable than, say, open world.

  • Welcome to chrono tier booooizzzz. No shade skills on self should be a trade off for sand savant and not baseline

  • gen.6807gen.6807 Member ✭✭

    Moved to reaper already - there is no point in struggling with heavy-handedly crippled e-spec. Ab the mobs - the stationary ones consist mostly of the ones in core Tyria and few bosses in instances. But, you know, they promote sKiLfUL aNd DyNaMiC gAmEpLaY.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    How does this change ruined PvE? Just play melee!

    Without any shades? Do you play scourge at all? Half our damage modifier traits rely on shades being placed.
    Reaper is far better in melee, especially compared to shade-less scourge.

    In open world PvE it's still playable, of course. Yes, it's a nerf, but farming still works. However, I won't even try to enter PvP with this change. And I can imagine the effects on raids and higher fractals are far more noticable than, say, open world.

    This!

    Scourge's minor increasing both"defense" and condi duration require you to lay shades. However shades are statics so they are a bad match for encounters where the foes move. Additionaly the punishment trait basically ask you to summon your shade otherwise you don't apply the burn.

    The mechanical change on shades was smart, very smart, because it introduce a notion of choice in what you do, however the traitline itself wasn't tweeked to support this mechanical change, which, in the end, leave the scourge with a lose/lose choice in front of him. A lose/lose choice that don't really matter in the microcosm of the WvW zerg, but impact heavily small scale encounters and solo gameplay.

    To clumsily nerf scourge in WvW zerg, ANet basically sacrificed scourge in other area of the game.

    If stacking scourge for barrier was an issue, they should just had make it so that a barrier can only replace a barrier of lower value instead of making barrier cumulative.
    If area denial was an issue they should just have removed damage from shades, the necromancer weapon and utilities already give more than enough area denial without the need of another layer in the form of the shades.

    Instead of wise changes, we've got hasty smart changes. It's nice to be smart, but without wisdom, smarts are a tool of massive destruction in the hands of idiots.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    The mechanical change itself is good. It should have been this way since day 1. Either the scourge or the shade should deal damage.

    Not really. I mean it would be as you say if Scourge was compensated with sustain or dps buffs which never happened. All that actually happened is scourge being nerfed since day 1 with the exception of Soul Barbs which isn't really something big (compared to dps output from other classes). PvE wise scourge was out of meta from every mode due to low damage output. PvP wise scourge was 'shining' in low tiers but was food if played carelessly or not being babysitted by a sustain class. So these are the facts.

    Only place scourge was naturally played was in WvW but that has always been like that since long ago - i mean necros have always been the core backline bombing in GvG fights, so scourge was nothing different and in the melee phase it had to follow the group and being protected either by fellow barriers, boons of group or his own barrier when getting sniped by deadeyes or bows lurking in the perimeter.

    In general necro life is hard and all the balance team does is doing it unecessarily harder. We had mirage trolling PvP modes for ages and even still does to a degree. Condi thieves carrying PvP games with absurd dps output, holosmiths sustaining like gods, deadeyes and Soulbeasts cheesing in WvW. Do they see those things? Because these are the real problems and the reasons players leave the game and not the scourge pulsing some poo dps on himself along with his shade.

    Overall very disappointed.

  • @Saracen.2691 said:
    Yeah, no, I really can't stomach this one. This is just infuriating. I skimmed the advance notes thread and it didn't take a genius to realise there it was a terrible idea either. Some fun highlights off the top of my head Scourge players are going to get to look forward to now:
    Golems moved in Aetherblade? Sorry, can't do anything.
    Mai Trin teleported or chased after someone? Guess who's useless now?
    Gladiator charged in Chaos? Wow how unfortunate!
    Diviner bolted for that guy hanging around in the back in Cliffside? So much fun to be invalidated by a mechanic as basic as movement.
    The Voice switched position in Deepstone? Yeah just go wait in a corner or whatever.
    Nothing to worry about in Molten Boss, it's not like anything ever moves in that Fractal!
    What's that, we made changes to Molten Furnace that added some mobs with high mobility? You're gonna love what we do to Scourge next.
    MAMA and Ensolyss never move in Nightmare, nope, not at all.
    What do Skorvald and Viirastra do in Shattered Observatory again? Have teleport phases? Oh good.
    There's absolutely nothing in Siren's Reef that will be a problem. Yeah, oh wait, that Stonehead moves almost constantly, Black Peter forces you to move and thus move him or die instantly and Crowe teleports.
    I can keep doing this for Snowblind, Swampland, Twilight Oasis, Underground, Urban and Volcanic (which is kind of vital since you need to get as many attacks as you can in on the Shaman for a specific phase) but I don't really think it needs the obvious statement. Four Fractals. Four out of twenty where Scourges aren't disadvantaged by the very nature of the mechanics. Fantastic. Please, God, don't leave this the way it is. I doubt my criticism will get anywhere because of the manner it's delivered in but it's hard to keep being unbothered by having your throat stomped in patch after patch because of concerns that probably only exist in of WvW and PvP anyway. At least you split more changes this time. That's the only positive thing I can say.

    This is why you can place three shades. You dont need three shades at one target, because every single mob can be attacked only by 1 shade, so if you place 3 shades on a boss and hit F5, the boss will be take damage only from 1 shade, not from all three. Same thing with allies.

    Commander, to ME!

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    I ran support scourge on T4s yesterday....doable....BUT SOOOOOOOO CLUNKY!!!!!

  • @Antycypator.9874 said:

    This is why you can place three shades. You dont need three shades at one target, because every single mob can be attacked only by 1 shade, so if you place 3 shades on a boss and hit F5, the boss will be take damage only from 1 shade, not from all three. Same thing with allies.

    Except that you can't maintain having three shades out at once.

    The old goal for shade maintenance is to try to keep up two at a time for 10% condi duration and you want to place one after you cast a punishment skill for the sadistic searing burn. Now it's place one every time the enemy leaves the shade and hope it doesn't leave before you get skills off (6 seconds for Desert shroud to do all the ticks, so good luck with that) and your next shade comes off cool down.

    Also you want the enemy to move because torment does more damage on moving targets...

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    How does this change ruined PvE? Just play melee! You are the class with the highest health pool and tons of barrier. It's ridiculous to complain for PvE if all you got was buffs (more targets and more sustain options via Death Magic). The nerfs have only an impact in WvW. Even in PvP in capture point fights they are irrelevant.

    Scourge gets bonuses for having as many shades up as possible at all times regardless of whether you're playing defensively or offensively. 'Just play melee' is ridiculous, that's not what the spec is designed around at all. It is strictly a gigantic nerf to everything intended for Scourge. Just sitting there mindlessly 'tanking damage' which doesn't matter since everything in PvE has cleave and aggro doesn't work isn't just depressingly boring and symbolic of the dismissive attitude it feels like ANet has towards necro, it's downright insulting that other players would be so blind as to think it's an acceptable answer. More targets is worthless when A: death magic isn't a spec Scourge even uses and B: everything can just walk out of your shades or get knocked out anyway - it doesn't matter if we can hit one or a trillion targets (for severely diminished DPS with death magic by the way) when nothing is there.

    @Antycypator.9874 said:

    This is why you can place three shades. You dont need three shades at one target, because every single mob can be attacked only by 1 shade, so if you place 3 shades on a boss and hit F5, the boss will be take damage only from 1 shade, not from all three. Same thing with allies.

    Wrong. Did you read my OP at all? I specifically mentioned Sand Sage and Sadistic Searing. You either don't play Scourge much or you play it in a way inefficient enough to make a nerf like this seem palatable. If you have Sadistic Searing, you are incentivised to stack shades where it will do the most damage and even if for some reason you don't i.e. heal scourge you don't have any choice about Sand Sage, you want as many shades up as possible at once. If a fight lasts any time at all, and since this has been done to Scourge that's a given if one is present, you are going to run out of shades even at a pace of only using them when Sand Flare and Trail of Anguish are off CD. And that isn't a fun cooldown to balance, you will be often waiting 10+ seconds for a shade to recharge - what exactly are you supposed to do during that time when the boss runs out of your shade?

  • Hiraga Taichiru.1580Hiraga Taichiru.1580 Member ✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    This change is insane. Please revert it. Scourge is almost consistently kitten in terms of damage potential with every patch but this one is just way too severe specifically because of ruining synergy with Sand Sage and Sadistic Searing. Mobs aren't static in this game, especially in use cases where it remotely matters like T4 Fractals. Having less than as many shades up as possible constantly is hamstringing your DPS as scourge. Now you are punished for trying to pursue that synergy - mob moves out of your shades? Congratulations, you're screwed and a gigantic chunk of your damage just evaporated. We need the ability to act as an additional shade for the purpose of pursuing mobs and even if you want to argue the support focus angle, great, hope you enjoy denying your allies that condi cleanse or little bit of barrier that would've helped them because they're a metre away from your shade.

    It feels like you intrinsically gave the ability for Scourge to deal DPS and now you're trying to hammer it into those of us who like the playstyle that we're wrong. It sucks, taking away the little flexibility we have is excessively punishing. We can't even destroy shades so if we're out of them and the mob runs off we can potentially be waiting twelve or more seconds contributing next to nothing to our teammates. What the hell am I supposed to do in Snowblind now? Shaman leaps so I get to spend a quarter of a minute twiddling my thumbs saying 'sorry I'm dead weight again guys'? Situations like that aren't at all the exception either - that isn't even taking into account how many people obliviously knock mobs out of your shades. This is the most damaging update in a single patch Scourge has ever received, worse than the bug on launch, nerf to compensate or the bug being fixed and nerf never reverted.

    This is the same as chrono wells. Instead of fixing the chrono wells, they copied the mechanics to necro, rip chrono, rip necro.

    Current Anet Devs likes the Thief class and dislike the Mesmer class, Haven't you noticed? (RIP Chrono) (Bring Back Chrono) (Make Chrono playable)

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll sign the revert petition. I played about 5 hours last night as a scourge in WvW and it did not feel like I was even playing the same class/spec. Here was what was going through my mind all night:

    Keep track of your shade, keep track of your shade, keep track Oh kitten i need to evade, evade, switch weapon, and evade again. Where the hell did my shade go... I guess ill drop another wait a minute its on cool down and I have to wait 15 seconds before I can place again. I wish I could find my shade but I give up to much spam screen clutter to see where it was placed. Guess I will try and stay alive while I wait. I really miss the old way...

    The ridiculousness of increasing the shade duration to 15 sec. is really just salt in the wound. If anything it should have been reduced so we can use the shades off of our character sooner... I am not sure who mentioned it but someplace I read the recommendation of shades working similar to the Revnants ventari's tablet. That is a better Idea than what we got last patch.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saracen.2691 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    the change is mainly targeting the WvW pirate ship meta, while I agree the meta needs to be nerfed as it makes WvW rather stale, but i feel the dev approached the nerf in the wrong direction, perhaps we scourage mains feels too entitled cos of the existing mechanic since PoF day 1 ?

    What is there to feel entitled about? Nerf after nerf after nerf inflicted unilaterally because of specific issues in WvW? The only people who play Scourge now are the tourists to whom this doesn't matter at all or dedicated players who are used to getting smashed into the dirt because of ANet's balancing and heal Scourges who are already playing the worst build the spec has so what's a little less usefulness to them? None of the other PoF specs have gotten this kind of harsh and destructive treatment applied with the elegance of a mailed fist.

    Scourge is probably the most newbie casual friendly class design Anet has ever created, i can pretty much go brain-dead mode most of the time on scourage, jump into the middle of a mob pack with a shade beneath and blow everything up without being in danger

    tagging mobs for events or wvw, throw a shade at a choke, then run around poking everything with F5, and get loads of exps

    the change actually makes me think, is the mob going to be static or going to be constantly moving? if constantly moving, can i try to push it into a choke?
    is the mob so dangerous that i should constantly keep a distance away? where's the place that makes the most sense to throw my shade, and should i stack on top of the shade to get the barriers?


    now if you think what if Anet did this the other way around?
    that this change was there from the very start, and made F skills to both sand shades and necro later on to make things easier? there would a tsunami of praises and calling it a god send to make scourge stupidly easy to play


    despite it will be hard for players to change their play style and get used to it, and more backlashes like this post, overall i think the change is good for the players and the community, and encourage players to take their game-play to a higher level

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    death magic isn't a spec Scourge even uses

    very much depending on the play style, i ran death magic minion spec in pvp if i suspect there is going to be heavy condi pressure from the other side

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Saracen.2691 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    the change is mainly targeting the WvW pirate ship meta, while I agree the meta needs to be nerfed as it makes WvW rather stale, but i feel the dev approached the nerf in the wrong direction, perhaps we scourage mains feels too entitled cos of the existing mechanic since PoF day 1 ?

    What is there to feel entitled about? Nerf after nerf after nerf inflicted unilaterally because of specific issues in WvW? The only people who play Scourge now are the tourists to whom this doesn't matter at all or dedicated players who are used to getting smashed into the dirt because of ANet's balancing and heal Scourges who are already playing the worst build the spec has so what's a little less usefulness to them? None of the other PoF specs have gotten this kind of harsh and destructive treatment applied with the elegance of a mailed fist.

    Scourge is probably the most newbie casual friendly class design Anet has ever created, i can pretty much go brain-dead mode most of the time on scourage, jump into the middle of a mob pack with a shade beneath and blow everything up without being in danger

    tagging mobs for events or wvw, throw a shade at a choke, then run around poking everything with F5, and get loads of exps

    the change actually makes me think, is the mob going to be static or going to be constantly moving? if constantly moving, can i try to push it into a choke?
    is the mob so dangerous that i should constantly keep a distance away? where's the place that makes the most sense to throw my shade, and should i stack on top of the shade to get the barriers?


    now if you think what if Anet did this the other way around?
    that this change was there from the very start, and made F skills to both sand shades and necro later on to make things easier? there would a tsunami of praises and calling it a god send to make scourge stupidly easy to play


    despite it will be hard for players to change their play style and get used to it, and more backlashes like this post, overall i think the change is good for the players and the community, and encourage players to take their game-play to a higher level

    • Balance probably shouldn't be based around casual open world stuff. Literally any class can do as you describe, jump into a pile of mobs and mow them all down

    • Nor should it have anything to do with tagging potential.

    I have...little against this change in pve open world stuff as literally nothing has changed (the vast majority is static anyway). Wvw, I don't really play but a lot of the issues can be mitigated by the presence of allies, which are (insofar as I'm aware for that game mode) are pretty much always around.

    But this feels disastrous in spvp, and I really feel for people who do pve content that requires any sort of awareness or enemy movement in the slightest. Scourge basically has rifle kneel with none of the upsides. Either ranged or melee can engage you with utter impunity, fractals/raids/w-e with any enemy movement will be hell

    Specifically for spvp - what are scourges gonna do? They're already slow, but now they don't benefit from shade skills if they don't stick near the shade or just not use it. The shade circle doesn't even cover the length of a single dodge roll - which class (who have pretty much all been getting mobilitypowercreeped for months) will stay still long enough for you to do anything? It'll go...place down shade. Cling to it for dear life. Place another shade on your opponent - they walk out of it before the shade skill pulses. Your kiting ability is even more limited because if you leave the shade, you're almost defenseless.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    Scourge is probably the most newbie casual friendly class design Anet has ever created, i can pretty much go brain-dead mode most of the time on scourage, jump into the middle of a mob pack with a shade beneath and blow everything up without being in danger

    Define your parameters. That's true for literally everything in open world PvE. This mentality in Fractals is the exact one which creates unbearable, oblivious players you hope know to stay in T3s instead of wandering into T4.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    tagging mobs for events or wvw, throw a shade at a choke, then run around poking everything with F5, and get loads of exps

    Worthless. Absolutely worthless example. Tagging doesn't mean anything. Killing power does. Are you going to argue the virtues of Guardian based on its staff 1 before that got nerfed too? This guts the killing and defensive power of Scourge, that's exactly the problem.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    the change actually makes me think, is the mob going to be static or going to be constantly moving? if constantly moving, can i try to push it into a choke?
    is the mob so dangerous that i should constantly keep a distance away? where's the place that makes the most sense to throw my shade, and should i stack on top of the shade to get the barriers?

    Sorry how are you going to do that in boss fights where you're dealing with break bars and mobile mobs? Scenarios where DPS and individual performance actually matters? Please go do a T4 Chaos and realise how irrelevant everything you're saying is. You're talking in idealism and mitigating nonsense, not practicality. You're completely off base and missing the point.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    now if you think what if Anet did this the other way around?
    that this change was there from the very start, and made F skills to both sand shades and necro later on to make things easier? there would a tsunami of praises and calling it a god send to make scourge stupidly easy to play

    Yeah, it would be labelled a 'quality of life' change overdue and Necro players would have something to be happy about for once. That's what going about this the other way would have done. The fact they didn't demonstrates this is a betrayal of the philosophy they built Scourge with leaving us with a disgustingly diminished spec that no number changes hence are ever going to fix.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    despite it will be hard for players to change their play style and get used to it, and more backlashes like this post, overall i think the change is good for the players and the community, and encourage players to take their game-play to a higher level

    If you think this change is good I have a hard time believing Necro is a class you've ever genuinely cared about or invested enough time in to consider your main. There is no playstyle change which fixes this save one - pick a different class. Play Firebrand so you can be useful, they both use condi, basically the same, right? I refuse to agree that that is remotely acceptable. Pretending like this is an improvement is precisely how ANet is going to justify shutting out an entire swath of their playerbase without a care. Just like every other time.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    They're already slow, but now they don't benefit from shade skills if they don't stick near the shade or just not use it. The shade circle doesn't even cover the length of a single dodge roll - which class (who have pretty much all been getting mobilitypowercreeped for months) will stay still long enough for you to do anything? It'll go...place down shade. Cling to it for dear life. Place another shade on your opponent - they walk out of it before the shade skill pulses. Your kiting ability is even more limited because if you leave the shade, you're almost defenseless.

    I think Anet had always wanted scourage to be a range damage / support from the very beginning, very much like Ritualist of GW1, a back liner, not getting up-close and bash your face type of class

    "https://www.guildwars2.com/en/path-of-fire/#specializations"
    Scourges channel their life force into the desert sands to summon biddable shades that damage enemies and create shields for their allies. They use punishment skills to torment their enemies, and wield torches to light the path to their destruction.

    so now the question as scourage players is, do you summon shade and hit from a safe range, or do you go kamikaze into the middle of the pack without shade

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    I think Anet had always wanted scourage to be a range damage / support from the very beginning, very much like Ritualist of GW1, a back liner, not getting up-close and bash your face type of class

    There is no two ways about it - you're outright wrong. Do you know what Trail of Anguish does? Do you know what Desiccate does? Do you know what Sand Swell does? Do you know what Sand Flare does? Do you know what Ghastly Breach does? Do you know how limited the range of Serpent's Siphon is? All of these abilities are Scourge only, all of these abilities benefit from being close to enemies and allies, who are almost always close to enemies, and none of them interact with your shades. Scourge by design isn't meant to perpetually hide in the back and Scourge certainly isn't meant to cower statically in decaying shades waiting for our turn to do a few seconds of noticeable damage; if ANet has suddenly decided to change their mind on that philosophy it is an unmitigated mistake. Shades have such a limited range their justification as 'backline support' is intolerable.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    "https://www.guildwars2.com/en/path-of-fire/#specializations"
    Scourges channel their life force into the desert sands to summon biddable shades that damage enemies and create shields for their allies. They use punishment skills to torment their enemies, and wield torches to light the path to their destruction.

    so now the question as scourage players is, do you summon shade and hit from a safe range, or do you go kamikaze into the middle of the pack without shade

    You still aren't understanding the core problem. It doesn't MATTER what you do or think, what matters ALWAYS is what your opponent does and how you can react. You cannot react anymore, you cannot be flexible, you can't mitigate, compensate, blunt or deflect - you are committed instantly and you are always going to lose now if any degree of player competency or mob mobility has a whim against you. And sure, 'just don't use Shades' right? Why do you think it's reasonable to throw out at least one of your traits and likely more just so you can use a weakened version of a major facet of your spec? No other spec has to suffer this kind of an insane restriction and it gives us no beneficial trade-off.

  • Spook.5847Spook.5847 Member ✭✭

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    This change is insane. Please revert it. Scourge is almost consistently kitten in terms of damage potential with every patch but this one is just way too severe specifically because of ruining synergy with Sand Sage and Sadistic Searing. Mobs aren't static in this game, especially in use cases where it remotely matters like T4 Fractals. Having less than as many shades up as possible constantly is hamstringing your DPS as scourge. Now you are punished for trying to pursue that synergy - mob moves out of your shades? Congratulations, you're screwed and a gigantic chunk of your damage just evaporated. We need the ability to act as an additional shade for the purpose of pursuing mobs and even if you want to argue the support focus angle, great, hope you enjoy denying your allies that condi cleanse or little bit of barrier that would've helped them because they're a metre away from your shade.

    It feels like you intrinsically gave the ability for Scourge to deal DPS and now you're trying to hammer it into those of us who like the playstyle that we're wrong. It sucks, taking away the little flexibility we have is excessively punishing. We can't even destroy shades so if we're out of them and the mob runs off we can potentially be waiting twelve or more seconds contributing next to nothing to our teammates. What the hell am I supposed to do in Snowblind now? Shaman leaps so I get to spend a quarter of a minute twiddling my thumbs saying 'sorry I'm dead weight again guys'? Situations like that aren't at all the exception either - that isn't even taking into account how many people obliviously knock mobs out of your shades. This is the most damaging update in a single patch Scourge has ever received, worse than the bug on launch, nerf to compensate or the bug being fixed and nerf never reverted.

    Apparently they feel that going down the same broken road that WoW and EQ took with constant nerfs and changes just to jerk the players around somehow makes for good business. Honestly, with all the recent sackings, why couldn't they have fired the geniuses who keep coming up with all these not grand ideas? I thought that if I waited to get PoF the stupidity would have passed me by, but here I haven't even owned it a MONTH and they nerf a core feature of the PoF elite class for necros!

    Simply unbelievable.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Spook.5847 said:

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    This change is insane. Please revert it. Scourge is almost consistently kitten in terms of damage potential with every patch but this one is just way too severe specifically because of ruining synergy with Sand Sage and Sadistic Searing. Mobs aren't static in this game, especially in use cases where it remotely matters like T4 Fractals. Having less than as many shades up as possible constantly is hamstringing your DPS as scourge. Now you are punished for trying to pursue that synergy - mob moves out of your shades? Congratulations, you're screwed and a gigantic chunk of your damage just evaporated. We need the ability to act as an additional shade for the purpose of pursuing mobs and even if you want to argue the support focus angle, great, hope you enjoy denying your allies that condi cleanse or little bit of barrier that would've helped them because they're a metre away from your shade.

    It feels like you intrinsically gave the ability for Scourge to deal DPS and now you're trying to hammer it into those of us who like the playstyle that we're wrong. It sucks, taking away the little flexibility we have is excessively punishing. We can't even destroy shades so if we're out of them and the mob runs off we can potentially be waiting twelve or more seconds contributing next to nothing to our teammates. What the hell am I supposed to do in Snowblind now? Shaman leaps so I get to spend a quarter of a minute twiddling my thumbs saying 'sorry I'm dead weight again guys'? Situations like that aren't at all the exception either - that isn't even taking into account how many people obliviously knock mobs out of your shades. This is the most damaging update in a single patch Scourge has ever received, worse than the bug on launch, nerf to compensate or the bug being fixed and nerf never reverted.

    Apparently they feel that going down the same broken road that WoW and EQ took with constant nerfs and changes just to jerk the players around somehow makes for good business. Honestly, with all the recent sackings, why couldn't they have fired the geniuses who keep coming up with all these not grand ideas? I thought that if I waited to get PoF the stupidity would have passed me by, but here I haven't even owned it a MONTH and they nerf a core feature of the PoF elite class for necros!

    Simply unbelievable.

    At least with eq every class is useful, sure rangers are underpowered in vanilla as are rogues but at least later on they are both good dps.

    since I started playing this game 2 years ago necro has struggled to be anything of value to raids and higher rank fractals. and in spvp necros have been free kills.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    Together with the torch-5 change I changed back to reaper. Scourge in PvE is just a pain in the a$$ now.

    Praise Joko!

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    They're already slow, but now they don't benefit from shade skills if they don't stick near the shade or just not use it. The shade circle doesn't even cover the length of a single dodge roll - which class (who have pretty much all been getting mobilitypowercreeped for months) will stay still long enough for you to do anything? It'll go...place down shade. Cling to it for dear life. Place another shade on your opponent - they walk out of it before the shade skill pulses. Your kiting ability is even more limited because if you leave the shade, you're almost defenseless.

    I think Anet had always wanted scourage to be a range damage / support from the very beginning, very much like Ritualist of GW1, a back liner, not getting up-close and bash your face type of class

    This was about sPvP. It does not matter if the scourge "choses" to stay at range. The opponent will chose to get in melee range as soon as our shade is out. That's the point. They will wait for your shade, then shadowstep / teleport / whatever to you. Dead. And if you're a smart scourge and place a second shade at your position, no problem, they will knock you out of it (because no stability) and then shadowstep. Still dead.
    See, you can "want" to play ranged all you want in PvP. As long as we don't have the mobility to outrun teleporting opponents, it doesn't matter.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    It should have worked this way since day 1 with a way to delete your shades. The problem is that they did this after 2 years and after countless nerfs, which would have not been necessary at all if they were willing to fix the core issues of scourge from the start. They also still only fixed one of the core issues. Sand savant is still a cancer trait in WvW and they made it even more broken. I wonder if it will take them another 2 years of scourge nerfs to realize that sand savant needs to either be reworked or removed from the game.

    Basically, fixing sand savant and changing the shade mechanic should have been their first balance changes for scourge before touching anything else. It is very likely that scourge would have required no nerfs at all if they had bothered addressing these first. Now they will either waste their time avoiding the sand savant issue and nerfing scourge more, or they will have to fix sand savant and gradually buff scourge to where it should have been 2 years ago. Only, they can't revert any changes. The buffs have to be something completely new, because the balance team never admits mistakes and doesn't revert nerfs.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    Siren's Reef, Molten Furnace and Deepstone exceeded my worst expectations. I am dead weight. I'm worthlessly and selfishly taking up a slot, forced to rely entirely on teammates. Nothing stays in your Shades. GW2's design revolves around mobility and Scourge has had it all plus adaptability taken away, you can't do anything about the massive duration chills and slows applied to you in Siren's Reef without taking even more conditions and straight up damage in the process, or getting blown off the deck of the ship or knocked back or CC'd into the dirt. You can't do anything to keep the dozens of mobs the game throws your way off yourself or your allies and contribute meaningfully to boss DPS at all. With the new emphasis on using minions with Necromancer too there are even more things mobs will chase after out of your shades without using them yourself at all, and that's if you're lucky and an ally doesn't just knock mobs out anyway. I got to enjoy watching the Minotaur in Deepstone jump back and forth between another Necromancer's bone fiend hiding in the corner and the centre of the room as imps crowded and there's nothing I can do about it except refuse to use my shades at all and take such a significant hit to DPS my performance is irredeemable when contrasted to the absolute minimum reasonable expectation for T4s. The Broodmothers move relentlessly and the Brood Queen has a dash built into her attacks. You can't do anything to hold the dredge suits in Molten Furnace in place unless they're aggro'd on you, which is 1/5, outside of relying on the goodwill of an ally. None of the instabilities were bad today and the writing is already painfully clear on the wall. What's the point in bothering to engage with anything in this game as a Scourge when so much of it has just been ripped out from under us?

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    It should have worked this way since day 1 with a way to delete your shades. The problem is that they did this after 2 years and after countless nerfs, which would have not been necessary at all if they were willing to fix the core issues of scourge from the start. They also still only fixed one of the core issues. Sand savant is still a cancer trait in WvW and they made it even more broken.

    Doesn't matter. WvW problems should have WvW solutions. Nerf Sand Savant into the ground in WvW if it truly is necessary but these sweeping changes are irredeemably ill-conceived. This isn't at all how Scourge should have ever worked unless the intention was to make Scourge an unbearable handicap to yourself and to everyone around you. It's absolutely untenable and miserable to experience. Giving shade abilities built-in delay was bad enough. This? Vindictive insanity.

  • Nash.2681Nash.2681 Member ✭✭✭

    Saracen.2691 nailed it.
    Nothing to add, the change is plain horrible.

    XMG U716
    i7-6700 (Desktop version)
    16GB RAM
    Geforce 980m

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Saracen.2691 said:
    Siren's Reef, Molten Furnace and Deepstone exceeded my worst expectations. I am dead weight. I'm worthlessly and selfishly taking up a slot, forced to rely entirely on teammates. Nothing stays in your Shades. GW2's design revolves around mobility and Scourge has had it all plus adaptability taken away, you can't do anything about the massive duration chills and slows applied to you in Siren's Reef without taking even more conditions and straight up damage in the process, or getting blown off the deck of the ship or knocked back or CC'd into the dirt. You can't do anything to keep the dozens of mobs the game throws your way off yourself or your allies and contribute meaningfully to boss DPS at all. With the new emphasis on using minions with Necromancer too there are even more things mobs will chase after out of your shades without using them yourself at all, and that's if you're lucky and an ally doesn't just knock mobs out anyway. I got to enjoy watching the Minotaur in Deepstone jump back and forth between another Necromancer's bone fiend hiding in the corner and the centre of the room as imps crowded and there's nothing I can do about it except refuse to use my shades at all and take such a significant hit to DPS my performance is irredeemable when contrasted to the absolute minimum reasonable expectation for T4s. The Broodmothers move relentlessly and the Brood Queen has a dash built into her attacks. You can't do anything to hold the dredge suits in Molten Furnace in place unless they're aggro'd on you, which is 1/5, outside of relying on the goodwill of an ally. None of the instabilities were bad today and the writing is already painfully clear on the wall. What's the point in bothering to engage with anything in this game as a Scourge when so much of it has just been ripped out from under us?

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    It should have worked this way since day 1 with a way to delete your shades. The problem is that they did this after 2 years and after countless nerfs, which would have not been necessary at all if they were willing to fix the core issues of scourge from the start. They also still only fixed one of the core issues. Sand savant is still a cancer trait in WvW and they made it even more broken.

    Doesn't matter. WvW problems should have WvW solutions. Nerf Sand Savant into the ground in WvW if it truly is necessary but these sweeping changes are irredeemably ill-conceived. This isn't at all how Scourge should have ever worked unless the intention was to make Scourge an unbearable handicap to yourself and to everyone around you. It's absolutely untenable and miserable to experience. Giving shade abilities built-in delay was bad enough. This? Vindictive insanity.

    I did mention that there should be a way to delete shades. If scourge worked like that from the start and it didn't receive the 2 years of nerfs that it did, it would have been fine.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I did mention that there should be a way to delete shades. If scourge worked like that from the start and it didn't receive the 2 years of nerfs that it did, it would have been fine.

    It wouldn't, even right now, people still complains about scourge in WvW. What they changed didn't affect the core of the issue in WvW, it even made this issue even more proheminent. Basically people were complaining that scourge were dealing damage to too many foes, scourge still deal damage to too many foes in the mind of players, it fact they think scourge was buffed in this aspect (which isn't totally wrong).

    The change just removed some quality of life out of the scourge leaving it more fragile out of a large group of allies. Nothing more, nothing less. They won't add a way to delete the shades, the best fix one can expect from ANet is for the shade skills effects to proc onto the scourge whether he is close or not of the shades.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    I did mention that there should be a way to delete shades. If scourge worked like that from the start and it didn't receive the 2 years of nerfs that it did, it would have been fine.

    Totally disagree. This change is more impactful than two years of number changes could ever be. How good your numbers are doesn't much matter when you can't reliably apply them to anything. I would say play Scourge for a week of Fractal dailies but at this point it's more suffering than I'd want to wish on my worst enemy. ANet's attitude towards Necromancer has been passive disregard for years - this time it's a lot closer to conscious spite. It's engineering failure, the only fix this has is a revert.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I plan to test the changes sometime later. The first week after a balance patch will be full of players testing professions with the most impactful changes. After a few weeks, the new meta should be mostly sorted out. That is what the dev's are really interested in.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭

    @Anchoku.8142 said:
    I plan to test the changes sometime later. The first week after a balance patch will be full of players testing professions with the most impactful changes. After a few weeks, the new meta should be mostly sorted out. That is what the dev's are really interested in.

    There is no new meta for Necromancer. The meta has only deepened its accents; Necromancer belongs on the bottom of the pile and you should play anything else. A week or month of 'testing' is only going to reveal how unable Necromancer is to keep up with any other class and Scourge any other spec.

  • I agree, instead of calling it "meta" build since there will be no meta, we should call it the "lesser evil" build for everyone who still wants to play as a necro. I am still experimenting and playing as one in pvp and oh well, the dmg loss is insane. In pvp in p1 -p2 as a scourge I don't do any dmg anymore. Before the nerf I had an average of 300-400k dmg on blood per match, now I have 100 - 200k. On average of course, always teamfighting.

    ~ Miyu Chan / Fyora ♥

  • Athef.6879Athef.6879 Member ✭✭

    ANet stomped on Necromancers since day one, it has always been this way, was only a matter of time for Scourge to receive the same treatment. They do not care, I doubt they ever even stepped foot in the Necromancer section of the Forum, just like with the Chronomancer butchery. I'm not personally a Scourge player, but I'm still enraged they would dare take the core mechanic of the entire profession and throw it in a dumpster, putting an abomination of a fix in its place.
    The worst part of it all? You can shout and kick around all you want, but you won't see a single dev respond to anything we have to say. The community is nothing to them, they didn't, don't, and never will listen.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    An unnecessary nerf to an already marginalized class. Bad move, ANet. Revert the change ASAP, please.

  • I've given up on Necro for now. I'm back to playing my Elementalist until that build gets nerfed. Sometimes I think the only reason I have so many alts is because Anet keeps killing builds I like to play. Also probably why I play a lot less than I used to.

  • I have been running fractals in a duo since last week. At first it went well. Then the patch hit. I didn't get chance to read the patch notes before going into fractals and the difference was huge. I could keep up with my husband's ele before. Now I'm struggling, dying a lot more, and it feels so clunky. I wondered if it was just me. Now I've read the patch notes and I get it. It makes scourge frustrating to play, and I've enjoyed it for a while now. I wish I had suggestions for what to do instead, but whatever happens, this feels like the wrong choice for scourge. I guess I'll dust off my reaper or change class entirely. I used to enjoy mesmer too. Yet another character to park somewhere for farming instead.

  • Saracen.2691Saracen.2691 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    The more I play with this change the more it makes my blood boil. A massive amount of our damage was in torment. What does torment incentivise? Movement for the extra damage. What does this change smash you over the head with? Mobility destroys you. Scourge isn't allowed to have it, you're meant to be useless hiding in your Shade where you contribute nothing. Scourge has no use anymore. A berserker is more valuable than any Scourge, they can provide better support with banners, more single target DPS, more AoE DPS and they aren't crippled the moment anything does something as basic as walking. Nothing about this change makes sense, all it serves to demonstrate is it was implemented with an abject disregard of care or practical thought. The change is at odds with the very fabric of what Scourge is supposed to do by its most intrinsic condition. Why was this ever even considered for implementation?

    And this doesn't even take into consideration the fact that Scourge still has bugs which have been in the game since PoF launch, like Oppressive Collapse not always granting you might if you dodge, or Sadistic Searing procs getting stolen by Shades which didn't actually deploy and outright Shade charges getting eaten because of bugged interactions again with dodging. The core principles of Scourge can be crushed any time but fixing legitimate bugs is just too much, apparently.

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